David Savage on Japanese chisels

[Hilton Ralphs]

As per usual, the source is an email sent to me today. This time I will refrain from commenting as I've only recently managed to get all the egg off my face from the last episode. ;)


So far we have looked at two different brands of bevel edged chisels one American and one English. Now we need to consider the Japanese. When these blades became popular in the West I was one of the first to advocate their use. This is because of the hardness of the blade and the sharpness of the cutting edge these ages were as sharp as the cold rolled steel blades that we were used to in the 1980s and 1990s the difference was that they held their edges between five times in eight times longer. we know this because I did a test in my workshop we took a piece of maple and ask an apprentice to pare back with a sharp blade and saw how much he could pare before the blade lost its edge. Not a terribly scientific test I know but it was the best we could do.

These blades are harder I believe, they are closer to the old-fashioned cast steel or crucible steel of the tools made before World War II. These were blades that had been heated and hammered. Their construction is laminated steel they have a hard surface which forms the cutting edge and the bottom of the blade laminated onto a soft steel which forms in the body of the tool. This laminating process requires heating and hammering.

Although these blades if you buy them from a small maker are absolutely superb in their edge holding capacity, I don't think they are the ideal furniture makers chisel. These are carpenters tools made to be struck with a hammer designed to be used on large sections of softwood. Furniture makers need more delicate tools than the standard Japanese chisel. I do have a few of these in my toolbox and I will continue to use them but I mix them with and lighter Western blades.

A problem we have seen is the disappearance of a small highly skilled Japanese blacksmith. Most of the chisels imported to the west are made now in small factories and the quality is not as high as we are used to getting from the old master blacksmith's. When I was in Tokyo I was taken to meet a blacksmith, his workshop was probably smaller than a one car garage. He worked there with his 83-year-old father. I asked him to sell me a marking knife he asked my name and then proceeded to carve into the handle the symbols that indicated that this knife is mine. Then he turned to his father held the blade to his forehead and showed his workmanship to the old man. And the old man gave an appreciative grunt. Dad was the quality control department, the blacksmith was asking the old man "have I upheld the standards and values of your lifes work," the old man was acknowledging his son's achievements and congratulating him on his workmanship without giving him an inch more. All in a grunt.

[Kees Heiden]

Poor apprentice.

[Chris Griggs]

This guys stuff is getting painful to read.

[Steve Thomas]

Painful?
I thought that was an interesting point of view.
or are you talking about Hiltons Ralps? ;-)

[Hilton Ralphs]

Painful?
or are you talking about Hiltons Ralps? ;-)

Yeah probably me. My poker face is often painful to read.

Anyway, to lighten the mood, here is something completely off-topic.

Picture of a lightning storm in my city last week. Johannesburg/Sandton.

275259

[Richard Shaefer]

I have plenly of pre-war chisels and plane irons.
yeah, they're great and all, but do the edges last 5-8 times longer than my new chisels? not really.
I think the fog of memory is at play here for this guy.
he probably remembers fondly the days before polio vaccines when mean were men and women weren't allowed to vote.

[Derek Cohen]

Kind of cliched. The level of information we read 10 years ago.

To whom do you think this is directed? And to what purpose?

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Chris Griggs]

Painful?
I thought that was an interesting point of view.
or are you talking about Hiltons Ralps? ;-)

No not Hilton...this Savage dude's crap writing is just hard to follow. I also don't think its particularly informative. He spews out a few thoughts, without much context, and fails to make any real point. Of course, that's just my opinion, which isn't worth a lot.

[Graham Haydon]

From a totally non personal stand point David's work is not for me. His writing too does not appeal. That said even though his work and writing are not my favorites I am always in awe of what he or his students create http://www.finefurnituremaker.com/gallery_storage.htm http://www.finefurnituremaker.com/news/blog/confidence-in-furniture-design/ . In what is an austere climate it's good to see people pushing the boundaries. My 2 cents, ignore the writing and look at the pictures in wonderment.

[george wilson]

My 1965 Marples chisels are just fine. I do have a set of English pre war carving tools (I think they are Addis). Maybe they are pre WWI? Anyway,they are so hard they wouldn't hold a decent cutting edge. Much as I disliked doing it,I (being in the 18th. C. musical instrument maker's shop at the time),had to lay a small gouge I was using,on top of the hot guitar side bending iron (Our only source of heat). I let it slowly heat up to a medium straw color. Then,the gouge was fine,and held an edge well. This on already OLD English good brand tools! Should have been perfect to begin with!!

I have mentioned before that as toolmaker,I'd be brought antique chisels whose laminated steel cutting edge had become loose at the weld. Another's laminated steel cutting edge was just not hard at all,and the edge peeled back like a fish hook. I had to repair such tools that you'd think were from "The good old days". I can tell you,those good old days were not always good!! I think quality depended upon how drunk the workman was.

[David Weaver]

I like the japanese chisels, straight up. If I had to go all around again and spend anew, I probably would have a lot fewer chisels and something cheap, though. (not japanese cheap, just something cheap in general).

The idea that the chisels are intended for soft wood is maybe true, but they hold their edges much better in hardwoods also. All you have to do is sit down with two chisels and chop out a bunch of HBDT in hardwoods and see which one lasts. The japanese chisel can be swiped a couple of times on a finish stone between each couple of sockets and be in the same shape (as in 5 seconds worth of rubbing) and still be as sharp as you started when you're done with them. You could probably do the entire case without sharpening if you wanted to.

His supposition that they're plainer is correct, but they also have more carbon in them than probably everything but razor steel from the west.

I've seen a lot of videos of people making small delicate work with the chisels he calls construction chisels, too. There are plenty of more delicate chisels available now, too, but most good things are expensive in relative terms to used western tools (which are functionally just as good, just a lot harder to find when you look for stuff that's specifically for cabinetmaking).

(Hilton, I didn't think you had any egg on face from any of these. Everyone is busy being offended by the writer's inability to make a coherent sentence, but that's not a reflection on the messenger.)

[Tony Wilkins]

I've seen some pretty fine and amazing things done with these carpenters tools.

I don't think you have egg on your face from these Hilton. They've sparked interesting debate.

[Chris Griggs]

I don't think you have egg on your face from these Hilton. They've sparked interesting debate.

Agreed. I've enjoyed these posts in spite of the pain reading them has inflicted upon me.

[Chris Griggs]

My 2 cents, ignore the writing and look at the pictures in wonderment.

I like this idea.

[george wilson]

Why all the sudden interest in Savage's opinions?

[Hilton Ralphs]

Why all the sudden interest in Savage's opinions?

Well no real interest from me, I just thought fellow Creekers would possibly welcome an alternative opinion, good or bad.

He just happened to start this chisel 'review' this last week, hence the threads.

[Chris Vandiver]

My take on these chisel "reviews" is that they seem ill informed and have little or no practical value. Novelty reading, I guess.

[Tom McMahon]

Hilton, I appreciate and enjoy these posts, it's not often we get the opinion of an actual world-class wood worker on these forums. Based on his body of work he must know something about tools, but after all it's just his opinion and opinion is all we really ever get.

[David Weaver]

it's not often we get the opinion of an actual world-class wood worker on these forums.

I don't mind savage's opinions, though I'd assume that he's putting them out because he feels like it's expected, and they do seem dated.

As far as an actual world class anything on this forum, we get opinions on this forum from a world class instrument maker, tool maker, ...long list of world class - every day. The lack of discussion about chisels and some types of tools from George probably tells us all we need to know about whether or not it's critical. George provides them for free, too.

[Graham Haydon]

Agreed +1, it's good that a pro is taking the time to post about their experience, also it's good that people want to discuss and contrast it. Just because someone, pro or not, says something does not make it right. I think 99.99% of great results on the actual work comes from practice using the tools, whether that be an Irwin Bluechip or a Blue Spruce. Of course their are limits to what is a good tool but in the spirit of this thread, quality Japanese and western chisels from reputable makers will do a great job regardless of brand (IMHO).

[Tony Wilkins]

Agreed +1, it's good that a pro is taking the time to post about their experience, also it's good that people want to discuss and contrast it. Just because someone, pro or not, says something does not make it right. I think 99.99% of great results on the actual work comes from practice using the tools, whether that be an Irwin Bluechip or a Blue Spruce. Of course their are limits to what is a good tool but in the spirit of this thread, quality Japanese and western chisels from reputable makers will do a great job regardless of brand (IMHO).

+1. People seem to be able to make great things with even older and/or less than ideal chisels

[george wilson]

When we were at the Metropolitan Museum in New York a while back,there was a special exhibit of inlaid stone tables. They were spectacular!! But,the ones made in Elizabethan times were fitted even more nicely than those made in the 18th. C.. As a machinist,I could not see more than a few thousandths of an inch in any seam,so closely were the early tables inlaid. And,the slightest mistake in inlaying them and CRACK!! No doubt the tools were better by the 18th. C.,too.

Then,consider the magnificent gold burial mask of king Tut. It was made with copper tools. Yes,gold is soft,but still,making the things found in his tomb with copper tools and terribly bad copper saws must have taken incredible patience. That gold had to be made into ingots,then pounded into sheets just to get started. Pieces had to be welded together. Blue enamels had to be fused in ovens whose heat were only controlled by the experience and expertise of the craftsmen. I marvel at what they were able to accomplish. Let alone making obelisks and large buildings,all from stone. Some from very hard stone.

Some of us have seen those marvelous bone models of men of war sailing ships made from soup bones by prisoners. Those are incredible,especially considering the limited number of tools of any type,and the paucity of material available to 18th. C. prisoners of war. Those men had to make those to PAY for the food and other "care" (like maybe a ragged blanket?) they got in prison!

[Frank Drew]

As far as an actual world class anything on this forum, we get opinions on this forum from a world class instrument maker, tool maker, ...long list of world class - every day. The lack of discussion about chisels and some types of tools from George probably tells us all we need to know about whether or not it's critical. George provides them for free, too.

So, what, no one else's contributions have any value? That's rather limiting, don't you think?

This shouldn't need stating, but that is meant as neither pro one nor anti the other, just a reminder that it's a big world, with many actors, and if someone finds value in another's work or thoughts about work, how is that a bad thing? This is a discussion forum, after all.

[Frank Drew]

Oh, and Hilton, sensational photograph of the lightning!

[David Weaver]

So, what, no one else's contributions have any value? That's rather limiting, don't you think?

This shouldn't need stating, but that is meant as neither pro one nor anti the other, just a reminder that it's a big world, with many actors, and if someone finds value in another's work or thoughts about work, how is that a bad thing? This is a discussion forum, after all.

My post was more directed toward not hearing the opinion of a world class woodworker every day. We literally do. And he was a toolmaker, too.

Personally, I don't go with the minimalist tool thing, so it's not an attempt to smash others' opinions and say folks can't discuss it, and I'd rather see these posts than not. What else would we talk about, most things aren't relatable in relative terms since we all have chisels, but we may not all want to build a roubo this or that. I stand by the point, though, that I have never seen a world class woodworker who wasn't teaching or marketing and who felt that there was a need to publish specific opinion about chisels.

[Hilton Ralphs]

I stand by the point, though, that I have never seen a world class woodworker who wasn't teaching or marketing and who felt that there was a need to publish specific opinion about chisels.

Not sure if you think this is a good thing or not but I don't see the point of being world class (at anything) if you're not going to leverage from that. I think you may start out with this philosophy but once you gain worldwide attention for your work, there is a natural progression to articles, classes, books and general blogging.

[David Weaver]

Not sure if you think this is a good thing or not but I don't see the point of being world class (at anything) if you're not going to leverage from that. I think you may start out with this philosophy but once you gain worldwide attention for your work, there is a natural progression to articles, classes, books and general blogging.

It's not a point as to whether or not someone leverages to make money, it's a point as to whether or not it would be much of an issue on their radar if they weren't bombarded with questions from beginners about what to buy. Contrasting the point with George, and someone like Tom MacDonald (who was using blue chips in his old videos before woodcraft picked him up), it's just not a topic that gets much attention or gets discussed much. If either was teaching regular classes, they would probably have a bunch of students demanding specific answers about what to buy (the same as many used to flip to the reviews in FWW and choose to get either "best overall" or "best value" winners). If you said, it doesn't really matter that much, it's not an answer beginners or students accept because it's not actionable.

That's why I said it seems a bit contrived.

I'm still baffled by some of the stuff (sorby's performance and characteristics being prefereable to LN, comments about japanese chisels being too bulky, etc), but none of that stuff really matters because you can ultimately do the same work with any of them if you have the desire to do the work.

[Hilton Ralphs]

That's why I said it seems a bit contrived.


I think a lot of bloggers feel the pressure to post something every day or every week regardless of whether or not the content is relevant.

I use Twitter to follow certain companies and professional people, but as soon as I get more than three tweets from you per day, I hit the unfollow button.

Less is more in this case.

[glenn bradley]

I have plenly of pre-war chisels and plane irons.
yeah, they're great and all, but do the edges last 5-8 times longer than my new chisels? not really.
I think the fog of memory is at play here for this guy.
he probably remembers fondly the days before polio vaccines when mean were men and women weren't allowed to vote.

Hmm, the idea that old tool steel is superior to good modern tool steel is quite romantic but, not very probable. The idea that a bargain chisel of 100 years ago was superior in manufacture to a bargain chisel of today? No that I can get behind ;-)

[Tom McMahon]

Hmm, the idea that old tool steel is superior to good modern tool steel is quite romantic but, not very probable ;-)

I don't know if you are rite or wrong about the past, but I think in this modern world of the big box economy and the constant drive to make it cheaper, cheaper, cheaper, the assumption that anything modern is better is just as romantic. I have both new and old that are good and bad, but mostly it's hard to tell the difference in use, some old works better, some new works better. In general I think there are more good old tools than good new tools available at an affordable price. For the most part the high end, high price, new tools are aimed at the retired hobbyist wood worker.

[george wilson]

Steel is greatly better regulated today in its chemistry. Better manufacturing processes,too. Less reliant on workmen who can get tired,not be well,etc..

The only question really is: DO modern makers CARE to make better products,or not just to a price? Some makers like LV,LN,and some others care to. Pfiel,too is one of my favorite makers.

Very little was known about chemistry before 1830. That must be bourne in mind. All kinds of odd materials were put into steel hardening compounds back then: Urine of a red headed boy,and urine of a wine drinking monk(they used urine for MANY things!) are a few things I can recall offhand. What really did it was the carbon bearing material like charcoal,leather scraps,etc..

Shear steel was made from casehardened iron rods welded together. Then,bundled up and welded. That was Shear Steel. Lots of hard and soft layers. If re folded and welded,Double Shear Steel was made. Thinner hard and soft layers. Not good for cutting wood. You need a homogenous cutting edge for harder materials than flesh. Hard and soft layers are good for flesh as they have a sort of microscopic sawing action on flesh.

When Huntsman invented crucible steel,at least a homogenous steel was produced. He was a watch maker,frustrated that his watch springs,with hard and soft layers kept breaking. The British were still making that until recent times. The crucibles were poured into ingots,and were called Cast Steel. You see that term on a lot of old tools. It is no guarantee of carbon content,or even of the best quality. Quality depended upon the quality of the wrought iron that went into making the crucible steel. And,there were several varieties of Swedish wrought iron available,costing different amounts per ton. Quality depended upon how parsimonious the owner of the steel works was. The Titanic sank because poor iron was used in the hull,and split open badly when very cold if it ran into an iceberg. Even at that time,metallurgy was a BEGINNING science. They might not have understood the effects of low temperature on metal. I don't know if it has ever been proven exactly whether the poor iron was from fraud or ignorance,and that was into the 20th. C.. They certainly didn't try to be cheap about the luxury appointments of the ship.

There have been anomolies such as Wootz steel(good for cutting flesh,not wood),and of the fine swords made in Japan(Out of the worst possible source:sand iron,a tribute to the skill of those blacksmiths. Still, blades for flesh.). Today,Japanese tools are made from commercially available steels-white steel and blue steel( Perhaps some ultra expensive chisels are made from scratch? I mustn't insult Japanese tool devotees!) Today,we have come a long way,and (aside from other anomolies I might be forgetting) I'll bet on the modern steel from a reliable maker of tools as being superior. Especially as we move into the realm of powdered metals. I have chisels and gouges ranging from 18th. C. to new that I use in my collection,and find the new Pfiels as good as any old ones. I have Addis gouges from different eras that vary in quality,and other English and American chisels,and even Italian ones. They all vary in quality. As I have mentioned,as toolmaker,I was called upon to repair pretty old chisels whose steel lamination had come loose on,or which were so soft,the cutting edge peeled back into a fish hook. Never got hardened,apparently. Stuff happened.

[David Weaver]

I'd probably guess that if you were doing something like chopping sockets, a good japanese chisel would last about 5 times as long as something that was made in the 1980s (like a 1980s sorby or marples). I've had both. The japanese chisels hold up in mallet work better than anything other than powder metal chisels, and there are things about them that I like better than newer alloys.

by 5 times as long, I mean if you were doing work at a pretty steady pace and not babying the process, the japanese chisels would probably have about the same amount of wear after 5 sockets that a blue chip would have after 1. It might actually be better than that.

Where the japanese tools don't fare as favorably in performance improvement is plane irons. I'd hazard a guess that I get fewer feet of planing with all of my japanese irons except for one - if the order of business is routine planing and the comparison is a properly done Lie Nielsen iron. The one that I get a similar amount of use from is an alloy not unlike A2 steel. Good japanese tools fare better when impact causes the failure, and better than vintage western steel (they are harder and have more carbon) when it's planing and the same wood is being planed, and less to about as good as A2. That doesn't count the powder metal irons or super blue. I never used super blue enough to tell how it fares against diemaking steels in the west for planing, but the equivalents of M2 and M4 would fare better.

Vintage western chisels were made for professionals for the most part and are better than 1980s stuff unless you get one that was abused or rehardened, a little softer than the new boutique stuff (almost certainly so that it would be nice to sharpen with oilstones, as they could've hardened it any way they wanted to) and not as long at edge-holding as japanese chisels but easier to sharpen than anything else.

Vintage razors and files will generally give a lesson to the notion that all of the modern diemaking steels are better than the vintage steels were. They are more resistant to planing wear, and probably much more stable in hardening and tempering, but I'd rather have only vintage steels vs. only new ones if I had to make a choice.

That's my thoughts from wasting a lot of money.

[David Weaver]

I think a lot of bloggers feel the pressure to post something every day or every week regardless of whether or not the content is relevant.



I'm sure that's the case - I'll bet if they don't, blog followers start bothering them for content, and they'd rather see something than the statement that no relevant new material has come up that needs to be posted. Same thing happens on youtube when someone posts videos regularly, esp. if they start getting paid. The quality goes down over time and people complain about it, but if there are no new videos, then the complaining is much louder.

What is triple annoying is when people are posting stuff where it seems obviously contrived to try to drive traffic somewhere (facebook, twitter, another blog, etc.). it's like someone is selling you something. I don't get the sense that Savage is like that, I'd imagine that he's just giving answers to questions he's been asked.

[dan sherman]

modern tool steels are vastly superior to older tool steels with the caveat that it was produced by a reputable manufacture. My father has been in the steel industry longer than I have been alive, and he would tell you that the quality control process are much better now than they where 50 or 100 years ago.

David's points of views seem to be those of a slightly delusional and semi elitist individual. It seems like he automatically assumes if something isn't old, expensive, or hand crafted by a "master" it's crap.

[David Weaver]

Which david is delusional, me? I could be!!

There is a difference between better and more consistent. Steel is definitely more consistent now than it was 135 years ago. Actually, I guess that's probably true for any bessemer process steel, it's more consistent. But most modern steel I've used isn't as fine on a stone as a vintage crucible steel razor, and those razors aren't laminated, nor are the butcher or buck chisels that I have for the most part, but I haven't seen anything modern like them.

I don't agree with Savage that the old laminated irons and chisels are similar to the good japanese makers - the irons from the good japanese makers harder. Out of maybe 50 vintage chisels that I have, one has been similar to a japanese tool in hardness, and I'd bet it was defective to be like that. Nobody would want to sharpen it with novaculite stones.

[george wilson]

I know David pretty well,and he is not an elitist. He does shave daily with straight razors.

Although he has rather disagreed with my fairly long post,I'm not getting exercised about it,or calling names. Last time out,you were on MY case,Dan. Can't remember what it was about. Guess we agree now?

Good old tools DO exist. I am speaking in generalities. Science,chemistry,and manufacturing control ARE better now than they ever have been. It STILL remains for tool makers to choose(and pay for) the best materials to use. The best limits their markets as their tools cost more. How many are going to fork over $400.00 for a set of chisels? Not even the professionals I know!(One guy in the Millwork Shop was using one of those HORRIBLE rasp/chisels!!) And,someone had GIVEN it to him at that!! Others were made from old planer blades. They relied upon machinery to do their work. I have also seen pros who had hundreds of fine old carving tools. They made carved,fine furniture in antique styles. There are a lot more of the OTHER kind of pros out there!

I read about a great old razor used by all the miners in a gold camp in the 1849 gold rush. It was sacrificed to science in the 1980's,and found to be cleaner than modern aircraft steel. A product that was used by everyone daily,like a straight razor did cause stiff competition among makers for survival. This particular razor,though,was so much better than others in the camp,everyone borrowed it.

[dan sherman]

Which david is delusional, me? I could be!!


Lol not you, I was referring to Savage.

[David Weaver]

I know David pretty well,and he is not an elitist. He does shave daily with straight razors.

Although he has rather disagreed with my rather long post,I'm not getting exercised about it,or calling names. Last time out,you were on MY case,Dan. Guess we agree now?

You can ring my phone and tell me how awful my post content is in the same manner as your mentor reamed your efforts!! :) I was curious about the wootz, I'm glad you specified what it's good for (have to admit I've not had the desire to pay what people want for ultra high carbon steel in the 1.5-2% range, though, but I was curious about it).

My reading of the old razor steels from the crucible process is that they were in the 1.1-1.3% carbon range and selected from the best of the steel. They are almost identical to japanese white steel in the white 2 range, which is a steel that will make anyone think of vintage steel if you get a japanese chisel made of it that's just a touch soft.

I don't know the virtues of the lower grade crucible steels, but whatever was used in the old tang style buck chisels (as long as it rusts, some of the newer marked buck and witherby stuff has a lot of something undesirable in it) is really nice to use.

[george wilson]

I'm no straight razor expert. But,we did have to make a few 18th. C. razors for the Wig Shop,where they were actually used!. I used to go over there when I was in costume,and get a free haircut. They did it as a demonstration because the shop cut hair in the 18th. C.. I didn't let them shave me,though. We made them from straight W1 steel (pun not intended). That simple steel will really get sharp!

When we were making the Musical Instrument Maker movie in 1974,one of the young guys(who turned the great wheel for the lathe),showed up unshaven. He was shaved the day before when he was seen in the film. I had to take him upstairs and shave him. I kept a straight razor for cutting thick felt used in keyboards. Only time I ever shaved anyone(including me) with a straight razor. Didn't cut him,either. Trusting soul that he was.

Razors stay brittle. Back in the 60's,I read that the Spanish guitar makers would make a very long handled knife from an old straight razor. They used it to bear down vertically when carving the heel on guitar necks. I took an old razor and ground it down to about 1/2" wide,with straight(not hollow ground) edges. Then,I drew it BLUE(ought to have been a sporing temper) and stuck it into the handle. I took a reasonable,not hard,cut with it. PING!!! The blade went right past my ear. And it was SHARP!

After that,I took a piece of 1080 spring steel and made a blade that DIDN'T break in my face. The handle is about 18" long,with a 3 1/2" blade. You can take a good cross grain slice off of a neck heel with it.

I also have made(inspired by the knife leverage),a handle of similar length with a mushroom head. It had a large Pfiel gouge blade in it. I had set there mushroom head against my hip,and take a considerable HONK of wood out of an arch top for a guitar or other instrument. Very handy.

[Mel Fulks]

Quality is more easily accurately controlled. That does not mean it always benefits the buyer. It's often used to deliberately adhere to the lowest possible standard. Common NAILS are not as good as they used to be.

[george wilson]

Yes,made to a price is all too common. It is not anything new,either. Before brand names,it was worse. I saw a documentary where an early 19th.C. store owner made fake chocolate drops to sell children. I can't recall what was in them,but they were PAINTED with brown paint to look chocolate. Ice cream someone was selling was found to contain several bad fillers. I can only remember WOOL fibers as one of them.

You only have to read a little Dickens to see how tight fisted people could be back then.

[Mel Fulks]

Who was selling any "bargain" chisels 100 years ago? I see "hobbiest", and "home owner " grade tools as being a post WW2 thing.

[dan sherman]

You guys might like these two documentaries. While not about chisels, they are about steel making.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nXbLyVpWsVM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LtulTGxJdDc

[george wilson]

Well,I am glad that David Weaver is not an elitist. You see,both David and myself need all the sympathy we can get. We both suffer from culture shock left indelibly in both our minds from our up bringing.

You see,David's mother painted paintings on saws,sad as it is to hear. She did other suitable crafts which I cannot recall right now.

I deserve even more sympathy. MY mother lived in 2 houses that had fireplaces while I was young. The first was on a light station. She painted the bricks glossy fire engine red,and the mortar white. I thought Santa Claus would be down at any minute. That was in the 40's. By the 80's she had gotten more sophisticated. She got another house with a fire place. This time,she painted the bricks an earth tone brick red sort of color. Flat,this time,and the mortar grey. This fireplace was lined with white tiles of some sort(it was a house built in the 30's). She scrubbed the tiles perfectly clean. Then,she got 3 logs about 6" in diameter,and varnished them 20 times with spar varnish. They looked like they had been dipped in plastic!! These were put into the spotless fireplace on black painted andirons. I have no idea what they did when the power went off. I light up my wood burning stove that sits in front of my unscrubbed fireplace.

I remember from when I was 4 years old at the first light house. The coast Guard used to give every man a huge turkey every Christmas. It looked big to a 4 year old,at least. Maybe it was too large to get into the oven of the old black kitchen stove. But,I remember my step father cutting the lid off of a square 5 gallon can,and scrubbing it clean( I hope he got all the kerosene out!!) She boiled the turkey in it!!

So,take mercy on us and please do not dub either of us as elitist. We are still trying to recover from our upbringing. We are still trying to grasp at ways to bring some kind of culture into our scarred lives.

[george wilson]

"Hobby" grade tools were sold in the 18th. C.. But,they were called "gentleman's" tools. You could buy kits of different blades,chisels,knives and gouges in a roll with a single handle. Such kits were still sold until not too long ago. They have been replaced by X-Acto type kits,though X-Acto kits are not as heavy duty,and are for balsa wood,or white pine at the most.

Planes for gentlemen were also sold. They looked like regular planes,but were smaller. I had one in the shop for a long time. It was mahogany with a single iron about 1 1/2" wide. This one was a more deluxe model. We had a gentleman's tool kit in Williamsburg,which was reproduced as a retirement gift for one of our presidents.

I have seen late 19th. C. boy's tool kits. from the late 19th. C.. Their tools would actually work as opposed to ,later "Handy Andy" type kits.

[David Weaver]

I am still scarred by the crafts. George, they were all *unsuitable*. Many pieces of weathered barn siding have been painted into whimsical items (whimsey is not in my wheelhouse for taste). Fortunately, I've never seen a good saw painted, but buck saws and other various things - definitely - many of them. Tinware, kitchen items and cast iron pots, etc. Items of kitsch are given to my wife and I try to remove them from the house. One of them accidentally fell into a black garbage bag last night and may have accidentally been taken by waste management today.

There are a lot of people who buy these things from my mother. We have a squabble every time she gives us something or asks my opinion about it ("Mom, I'm glad you can sell it, but you know I find all of it offensive").

We have never had any trouble telling each other the truth. I will give us that.

[Greg Portland]

There is a difference between better and more consistent. Steel is definitely more consistent now than it was 135 years ago. Actually, I guess that's probably true for any bessemer process steel, it's more consistent. But most modern steel I've used isn't as fine on a stone as a vintage crucible steel razor, and those razors aren't laminated, nor are the butcher or buck chisels that I have for the most part, but I haven't seen anything modern like them.
IMO this is due to market conditions. Is the straight razor market big enough where a single manufacturer could hire a metallurgist to concoct the best possible steel? I'm don't believe the *new* razor market could support such an effort, especially because there are a bunch of small manufacturers (versus 1-2 major players).

Edit: I should add that I use a SR as well (and also a DE)... it's easier to just buy a good used razor because so many exist out there right now.

[David Weaver]

I don't know how they picked razor steel, but I'd have to assume the steelmaker knew how to describe the best of the crucible steel because they probably got the most money for it from the cutler's making straight razors, or anyone else who may have used that high grade steel.

I have used newer steel razors, i guess i still have them would be more accurate (friodurs, and a "carbon steel" dovo). The dovo does not have the crispness of the old NY razors or the old solingen razors. I don't know what alloy they use, but I think it's something oil hardening instead of water hardening like the plainest of steels are. It's still a good razor, though, and hard.

I've also bought a lot more used razors than new - you get a lot more for your money if you buy right.

There have been some special steel razors by thiers, etc, but they are huge dollars (to me at least). They are actually made of steels that you or I could look up ("carbonsong 135", etc), but I've never used one because I don't know where to get one cheap :)

I don't think there's enough money in any of it for any new manufacturers to try to find the best possible steel. Some of the boutique makers are using O1, which definitely isn't as good for razors as a vintage crucible steel, but they all make suitable razors, I'd imagine. The friodurs are 440C that is cryo treated (at least I think they are), and they are slightly softer as far as I can tell, probably so that they can still be sharpened with any stone. Best, like woodworking, is going to still be subjective.

The highest $$ japanese razors that are claimed at 67 hardness are probably too hard for a lot of people to enjoy much. I had a couple of razors that weren't quite as hard, but were japanese makers and I really didn't feel like I could get the most out of them because they were too hard, even though they were technically probably higher quality than the old NY and solingen razors.

The english must have had separate thoughts, too, as they are generally a little softer. Their ideal must've been driven by something. Maybe by the stones that were common there 150 years ago.

[Tony Zaffuto]

George & David would not hold a colonial candle to my upbringing. For example, our hunting camp is built of field stone, with a field stone fireplace inside. My father and another guy, after a day of hard drinking, painted the field stones silver, then missing their antics in the Pacific Theater of WWII, promptly went outside and cut two pine trees to look like palm trees. The other guy was part of a company that invented "Z-bricks" and their first version was plastic. They plaster the walls of the camp in the garish, red, 1/4" thick plastic brick, with fake mortar joints. Ugly as crap. It has taken nearly two decades to undo their antics.

Sort of like inheriting that #5 from your dad, that he painted bright yellow to identify. You restore it to what it is supposed to look like and now it is just another #5. I miss the yellow #5, as I do my father & the other guy(s) from camp, as they're all one to several decades dead. The camp has also lost its character with the palm/pines gone, the Z-brick stripped off and the silver paint baked off from fires in the fireplace.

[george wilson]

My profound culture shock commiserations,Tony!!:)

[David Weaver]

I would show you guys the painted canvas that's in every room of my mother's house. And that's on the steps - literally all the way up, folk art painted with different scenes. I feel like I should look over my shoulder as I describe it, like she's going to see my criticisms (though I did say "these ruin the entire house!").

She described these painted canvas floor covers and the steps to me as "back when people couldn't afford rugs and carpets, this is what they did".

I'm glad we can afford carpets.

Tony - your cabin sounds like a shrine almost. I can't believe you're changing it!! When I inherit them, I'll send you her canvases and you can put them around your camp. That'll bring the cringe back!

[george wilson]

And,I could send some cookie jar sets,except I threw them all away!

Crucible steels were picked by experts at the factories where the steels were made.

Samples of batches of crucible steels were broken by the expert. Judging from the size of the grain in the fractures,steels were sorted into 4 categories. Spindle steel,which had enough carbon to harden SOME was the bottom grade,with the largest grain fracture. Razor steel had the finest grain from having the most carbon.

I would not be surprised if samples of razor steel from different manufacturers were submitted to experts at the razor factories. They would fracture the samples,and make a determination as to which batch to buy. At least,that's how I'd do it if I had no more sophisticated means to judge the steels. Highly experienced experts can do a lot,though. Their brains were the best computers. Those who had the best experts made the best razors. Many things even today are still based on expert judgements. Like,what to do with you in an emergency room after a bad accident.

Even during WWII in England,an old metal expert was present at drop off points where ferrous metals were brought. He'd look at the fences,axles,and other stuff arriving,and make a judgement as to what the iron or steel was. Like steels or irons were consigned to different piles to be taken away to the mills. I know that in THIS country,barges full of metal were dumped at sea rather than fool with them. The goal was REALLY to make citizens FEEL like they were contributing to the war effort. England could not afford to be so wasteful.

[Mike Henderson]

Steel making generally breaks down into two eras - before our ancestors had the knowledge of how to analyze the steel, and after the chemistry was developed. I can't give you a definite date, but probably some time after 1850. And even then, the use of chemistry was slow to be adopted.

Before Chemistry (BC), steel making was to a large degree, hit-or-miss. The steel makers had recipes that had worked in the past, but they had no way to analyze their inputs so often, the ore or blast furnace steel contained impurities which the steel makers could not recognize. But they could recognize good steel after it was made (which was sometimes not too often). So, as you can guess, the steel was not very consistent from batch to batch.

Unfortunately, things did not improve a whole lot with the Bessemer process. There were a couple of problems for the steel makers with the Bessemer process. The first problem was the variation of the cast iron from the blast furnace - it often contained impurities that were not recognized. Second, the Bessemer process was very fast, and did not allow sufficient time to analyze the melt and make changes to it. The open hearth process was slower but allowed sufficient time for analysis and for the introduction of materials to remove impurities.

The Bessemer process was used for many years but the steel from it was used for applications that could tolerate the variation in the output. Railroad rails were one of the biggest users of Bessemer steel.

For those who are interested in early steel, one of the best sources is the two volume set "Steel Making Before Bessemer".

Mike

[Mel Fulks]

Agree with Mike. But I add Bessemer process made MUCH more steel than open hearth and much faster. So big leap forward not necessarily translating into quality . I don't know how much connection today's big steel makers have with cutlers,if any. But the Japanese did well fast by using electric furnaces turned down by US makers steel makers using equipment a hundred years old. I have no doubt the new steel is good but I don't think the steel industry has been particularly progressive in keeping up with available science.

[dan sherman]

But the Japanese did well fast by using electric furnaces turned down by US makers steel makers using equipment a hundred years old. I have no doubt the new steel is good but I don't think the steel industry has been particularly progressive in keeping up with available science.

what time period are you talking about? My dads been in the steel industry for almost 40 years now, and every plant he has worked at except for the current one has used an electric arc furnace. When he worked at Northwestern steel and wire in Sterling IL, he had to call the nuclear plant in Byron before he took the furnace off line for extend periods of time, so that they had time to dial down the reactor to avoid a big surplus in the local grid.

[Mike Henderson]

Agree with Mike. But I add Bessemer process made MUCH more steel than open hearth and much faster. So big leap forward not necessarily translating into quality . I don't know how much connection today's big steel makers have with cutlers,if any. But the Japanese did well fast by using electric furnaces turned down by US makers steel makers using equipment a hundred years old. I have no doubt the new steel is good but I don't think the steel industry has been particularly progressive in keeping up with available science.

For those who might be interested in the decline and fall of the US steel industry in the 1980s, read the book "And (http://www.amazon.com/Wolf-Finally-Came-American-Pittsburgh/dp/0822953986/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1384979003&sr=1-1&keywords=the+wolf+finally+came)The Wolf Finally Came (http://www.amazon.com/Wolf-Finally-Came-American-Pittsburgh/dp/0822953986/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1384979003&sr=1-1&keywords=the+wolf+finally+came)". There aren't any heroes. Both management and labor were to blame.

Mike

[dan sherman]

For those who might be interested in the decline and fall of the US steel industry in the 1980s, read the book "And (http://www.amazon.com/Wolf-Finally-Came-American-Pittsburgh/dp/0822953986/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1384979003&sr=1-1&keywords=the+wolf+finally+came)The Wolf Finally Came (http://www.amazon.com/Wolf-Finally-Came-American-Pittsburgh/dp/0822953986/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1384979003&sr=1-1&keywords=the+wolf+finally+came)". There aren't any heroes. Both management and labor were to blame.

Mike

I think 90% of it is to blame on the unions. They got way out of hand in the 80's & early 90's. The other 10% is on the suits for making bad business decisions, and not telling the unions where to stick it nearly often enough.

[george wilson]

Douglas MacArthur rebuilt the Japanese steel industry with new equipment after the war. Ours had to compete with old.

[Mike Henderson]

Like most things, the whole story is fairly complex. But the net result was that quality was just not a major objective, either for management or for the workers. They had gotten away with selling their steel for so long that they didn't see any need to improve. And relations between labor and management were pretty bad.

When Japan started shipping steel into the US, the steel company management thought that Japan was sending their best steel but selling it at ordinary steel prices - and they'd have to revert to the lesser quality steel in order to make money. The truth was that the Japanese steel plants had improved the quality of "ordinary" steel and that's what they were shipping.

But even after the US steel companies had figured out what was really happening, they couldn't improve their processes and output. The steel companies were not willing to invest the money needed and they were unable to get the unions to trust them. Improving processes meant that less workers would be needed (labor costs had to be reduced to meet the prices the Japanese were selling their steel for) but the workers would not accept anything that reduced the number or workers.

The loss of market share eventually led to the closing of steel plants where all workers lost their jobs. Pennsylvania was especially hard hit.

Mike

[Hilton Ralphs]

I have voluntarily deleted my post here as it makes no sense without the deleted post I responded to.

George, there's a lesson here. Always quote the text you are responding to as it helps when the original post is deleted. It also makes for easier reading as sometimes someone else will respond on a different tangent altogether before you hit the send button and then the flow of the thread gets all messed up.

[george wilson]

Hilton,if I had quoted the text,they would have deleted it too. They already did that to get rid of the offending text.

[Hilton Ralphs]

Hilton,if I had quoted the text,they would have deleted it too. They already did that to get rid of the offending text.

George, you need to get yourself a tinfoil hat for Christmas, you'll then be safe. ;)

[Jim Foster]

Youngstown and other parts of OH were also hit hard, Youngstown and some surrounding areas were pretty much destroyed. Pennsylvania is the state everyone associates the steel industry to, but OH was also a major source of steel manufacture. A number of classic scenes in Deer Hunter were filmed in Ohio.




The loss of market share eventually led to the closing of steel plants where all workers lost their jobs. Pennsylvania was especially hard hit.

Mike

[David Weaver]

Yeah, the effect goes pretty much across the entire rust belt. SW PA, northern WV and Ohio, gary, cleveland, dayton....

[george wilson]

I really don't like the mile long trains going through here every day,carrying coal overseas. I wonder how much coal they can get out of those mountains! It is staggering to think of how many train loads have gone through here for decades. Down in Hampton are huge piles of coal,waiting to be loaded.

Back in the 50's,when I was in Ketchikan Alaska, I couldn't buy SPRUCE from the Ketchikan Spruce Mill. It was all going to Korea to rebuild the whole country after their war. 3 million board feet in 1 year from the spruce mill. That was chicken feed,I am sure.

[Keith Outten]

Hilton,

That's bad advice.

When I have to delete a post I make every effort to find any other posts that might contain a quote of the post that had to be removed. Otherwise it would serve no purpose to remove an offending post.

---------------

Gentlemen, there is no need in our having to continually moderate this forum as heavily as we have in the last few months. I suggest that some of you learn that if you feel the need to share your opinion you should be mature enough to receive one in return.

[Hilton Ralphs]

That's bad advice.

When I have to delete a post I make every effort to find any other posts that might contain a quote of the post that had to be removed. Otherwise it would serve no purpose to remove an offending post.


I stand by the principle of quoting the text you are replying to as this makes the thread easier to follow.