dog holes slanted

[Noah Wagener]

Ive read that dog holes need to be slanted towards the rear of the bench. I was planning on using round dog holes so that i could use holdfasts in the dog holes. But Ive also read that holdfasts are finicky and maybe an angled hole would hurt their effectiveness?

Why is the back right corner of a bench a traditional spot for a holdfast?

Any opinion on Grammercy holdfasts? Thirty five dollars for a pair seems a great deal.

thanks.

[Ryan Baker]

The Grammercy holdfasts are great. Highly recommended and a bargain price. Just drill your round dog holes square to the top. There is no need to angle them. Angled holes are traditionally used with the square dogs and an end vise, but they only are angled right in one direction.

[Winton Applegate]

Well the rectangular dog holes slant two or three degrees in both directions. Depends on if you have a right handed or left handed bench (where the tail vise is).
The ones that are in the bench top slant toward the vise end and the ones in the moving jaw of the vise slant the opposite direction, toward the stationary ones so a light tap on the dogs draw the work down onto the bench top.

Round dogs . . . if they are at all loose in the hole then they are forced into an open to the top side orientation and so I would think would let the work move away from the bench when under clamping force from the tail vise. Yes the end of the round dog may have a short section with an angle but that is just an end grain dent maker and not a real downward clamping "thang".

Think of all the money you save if you don't buy ANY hold fasts and make your dogs out of rectangular wood rather than buy pricy brass things.
:)

Why is the back right corner of a bench a traditional spot for a holdfast?
Oh . . . that is so the hold fast is in sight for photos and so friends visiting can see you have a cool big old iron hold fast thing but it is out of the way for woodworking without having to lift it out and toss it some where.

Just kidding . . . I have no idea.

[Hilton Ralphs]

Why is the back right corner of a bench a traditional spot for a holdfast?

The Schwarz hasn't written about it so it can't be true. I suspect that diving deep into Andre Roubo's book will enlighten all of us.



Oh . . . that is so the hold fast is in sight for photos and so friends visiting can see you have a cool big old iron hold fast thing but it is out of the way for woodworking without having to lift it out and toss it some where.

You may be closer to the truth than you think. It certainly sounds like a plausible idea.







Oh and before all the Schwarz fangirls get their pink panties in a knot again, I do actually like old Chris. I have two books of his and numerous videos.

[Jim Koepke]

Why is the back right corner of a bench a traditional spot for a holdfast?

My guess is this is an out of the way corner on the bench. If there is access to the back side of the bench this makes a good area for sticking molding. A holdfast is a handy way to hold thin stock while detail planing an edge.

jtk

[Kees Heiden]

I wouldn't use the dogholes for your holdfasts. Just add some holes where your work dictates them to be. I all depends on what you want to clamp and on the reach of your holdfasts. The holdfasts mark the holes in their own peculiar way, so that's why I don't think it is a good idea to use the dog holes for them.

[george wilson]

I haven't bothered to slant my dog holes,and no ill effects. The European benches I have used do have slanted rectangular holes.

It is no doubt better to slant the holes so the dogs tend to pull the wood DOWN to the top as pressure is applied. I just haven't bothered to do it on my bench at home. Nor was it done on the benches we used all the time I was in public-16 years.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

With straight and round holes, it's just as easy to put a slight taper on the tops of the dogs themselves, like pictured on these brass ones available from Lee Valley:

http://www.leevalley.com/us/wood/page.aspx?cat=1,41637&p=31127

I have a handful of holes in my top; the back right corner is handy because for the reasons mentioned, but also because it allows me to move back and forth between the holdfast and the end vise fairly quickly, and it allows me the easily hold stock so that chisel work (chopping dovetails or mortises at the end of a stile) takes place over the leg. Given that I have a fairly beefy benchtop I'm not sure it really gains me much, but the feedback does feel a little more solid.

I also like having an extra hole for my lamp closer to the back edge, out of the way of things.

I'd really just jump in with a row of dogholes in the front (if you're using an end vise) Maybe a couple of holes a bit further back if you plan on using holdfasts, and then add them as you get an idea how you want to work on your new bench. I have more holes than I probably need - they come in useful to allow the holdfast to hold some things during assembly or marking of parts in pretty much any spot, but it's a bit crazy. I doubt you'd put in enough holes to compromise the bench, but it's easier to add them as you need them than take them away later.

Just my two cents.

[george wilson]

I do actually bandsaw a downward slant on my dogs,so they bite at their tops.

[Jim Neeley]

I do actually bandsaw a downward slant on my dogs,so they bite at their tops.

Put some TEETH on them dawgs, eh George? <g>

[Winton Applegate]

(That was a movie quote)


You may be closer to the truth than you think. It certainly sounds like a plausible idea.

ha, ha, ha, aaah, ha, ha, ha,

Thank you,
ha, ha, you made my day.

I too really enjoy the Schwarz Meisters info
How did you know I was wearing pink under pants?
Wooooooh this is getting spooky

[Ryan Baker]

I'd really just jump in with a row of dogholes in the front (if you're using an end vise) Maybe a couple of holes a bit further back if you plan on using holdfasts, and then add them as you get an idea how you want to work on your new bench. I have more holes than I probably need - they come in useful to allow the holdfast to hold some things during assembly or marking of parts in pretty much any spot, but it's a bit crazy. I doubt you'd put in enough holes to compromise the bench, but it's easier to add them as you need them than take them away later.

I do this too. I started with a set of dog holes. They are usually not in the right places for holdfasts. You will quickly figure out where you will want your holdfast holes, and it is easy to add more holes here or there as needed. I've never wanted one in the top right corner, but I suppose that depends a lot on the dimensions of your bench.

[Noah Wagener]

thanks. I just read in a review that holdfasts work best in a slightly angled hole. I was concerned that i needed to drill at perfect right angle and did not have a means to do this but i guess it isnt that big a deal. i don't have an end-vise so i wasn't going to have that many holes anyways. Just one on each end for planing stops.

George, when you say that you slanted your dogs did you mean just the tops like the ones Joshua provided the link to?

when you scub plane across a board do you still hold it between end vise and fixed dog? is there some type of stop along the back edge of board? without a end vise how is work usually held for scrub planing?

are dogs loose in the hole if they did not have their spring? how loose?

[Noah Wagener]

i can't recall where i read that the back right corner was a "traditional" place for holdfast along with right leg. right leg makes sense for edge planing long boards. I just wanted to know if their was some particular task that was optimal there. guess not.

[Jim Koepke]

when you scub plane across a board do you still hold it between end vise and fixed dog? is there some type of stop along the back edge of board? without a end vise how is work usually held for scrub planing?

There is a stop mounted with clamps across the left end of my bench and a row of dog holes some what near the center. This is usually enough to hold a board for scrub planing across the grain. Some folks make one of the central strips of the bench removable so it can be flipped to become a stop the length of the bench. Many ways to prevent the work from sliding across a bench. As tight as one would have to clamp it in a vise it would likely bow.


are dogs loose in the hole if they did not have their spring? how loose?

This would make them difficult to use unless the head was bigger than the hole it is in. Here is a post showing a few ways to make simple round dogs:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?207672-Pop-Up-Round-Dogs

I like the bullet catch since you can make it seat flush allowing the dog to be made to be snug in the hole.

Square dogs usually use a thin piece of scrap attached at an angle on the bottom for a spring.

jtk

[Noah Wagener]

Jim, sorry i failed to ask the question properly about making dogs.
275252

when this spring is pinched tight the width of the dog is 1 and 5/16" . as it is the width is an inch and a half. I was thinking maybe the hole should be in between somewhere. like 1 and 3/8"? So the spring can be squeezed to move the dog? I guess i could practice in something other than my bench. I could not find a thread on making square dogs. Just people championing round dogs including a link where Chris Schwarz does the same.http://www.popularwoodworking.com/workbenches/schwarz-workbenches/i-have-a-dog-in-this-fight In it he says that a "proper square dog hole is a stepped and angled mortise." What is stepped?

thanks

[Karl Andersson]

Noah,
Stepped hole - One traditional style of rectangular dog (I suppose the most common) has a head larger than the shaft in one dimension to keep the dog from going all the way down through the benchtop - see a picture of mine below. I'm not sure how important it is until the springs start wearing out, but the "step" in the hole is where the large top steps down to the shaft dimension - the step on the upper dog in the picture is more visible.

The step in the hole should be slanted to discourage accumulation of sawdust, etc. - but in my experience, it still acts as a great place for shavings and other junk to catch on and fill the dog hole - probably not a problem if I'd felt like making a dog for each hole.
Karl
275269

[Bill Fleming]

Both Benchcrafted and LN have detailed drawings of square dogs on their web sites.

[Steve Barksdale]

Perhaps the holdfast is typically in the back right corner of the bench so you can use a batten, instead of an end vise, to hold your workpiece. Like this: Batten (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WNrof3cd1cA&feature=player_embedded). It works great!

[Noah Wagener]

cool video. I appreciate simple (read cheap) methods. I do appreciate the simplicity irrespective of the thrift. there sure are a lot of accents in Great Britain. I was following the links to the left of that video and here is that same guy using the tail vise:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YSlIDYR4xWE

the one with the vise was earlier in fairness.
THanks for the clarification on the stepped mortise and also the location of drawings of dogs.

[Winton Applegate]

There sure are a lot of accents in Great Britain

Yah, just ask Henry Higgins he 'll tell you.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhninL_G3Fg