David Savage on Lie-Nielsen chisels

[Hilton Ralphs]

David Savage is a "Fine Furniture Maker" who operates a school out of Devon in the UK.

Please excuse some of the grammar.

Prelude

As I wander around the twenty or so benches here at Rowden Workshops I see four or five favourite brands or furniture makers bevel edged chisel. As none of them seem to be perfect I will describe each in turn giving you pros and cons in each case as I see it.

On LN chisels

Workshop favourite are the bench chisels offered by the American manufacturer Lie Nielsen. These are without doubt beautifully made tools. The bevelling is accurate and well cut you can see the corners clearly and the backs of these blades invariably come to us straight and true. This is an essential quality and don't let toolmakers tell you different. The key surface of a chisel is the back, if you're seeking to create a flat surface with a chisel it is the back you will be pressing on to the job extending a surface that you've already cut to left and right using the corners of the blade. If the back of a chisel is not flat you have a great deal of work to get it flat. Or, you could use it for opening tins of...

The handles of these blades are good and two versions a long handle and a shorter handle are offered different sized blades have different sized handles. The manufacture of the blades is of exceptionally high quality it is a design that gives me a problem it is a relatively heavy blade and I personally find it rather clumsy. The steel used is a modern A2 cryogenically treated steel. The characteristic of the steel is to take an edge and then hold it exceptionally well. The challenge I have is that I feel that this is quality steel takes a good edge but not as keen as that offered by high carbon steel even cold rolled high carbon steel. I don't see the advantage of holding an edge for a long time as being a great one in a professional workshop as a skilled maker you will be able to put an edge on a blade in less than a minute I do see as a disadvantage the fact that these blades don't take the keenest edge.
For that reason alone I would not be buying them. Sorry Mr L N.
David Savage

[Chris Fournier]

I do see his point, sharp vs edge retention. It all depends on what kind of work the craftsman does and what materials are used. I personally prefer a tool steel that allows me to get the sharpest edge that I can attain, touching the edge up is indeed quick. This being said it can be a drag when you are to a fro between the bench and sharpening.

Even with metal working I prefer to use HSS cutters over carbide because of the sharpness of the edge attainable and the resulting finish. I resort to carbide cutters for machining of harder and more abrasive materials only.

Two faces of the cutting edge coin.

[John Sanford]

David needs an editor. I read the same thing, and was left wondering "Perhaps you should ask/answer why they are the workshop favourite then...."

[Hilton Ralphs]

David needs an editor

Exactly, hence my small disclaimer.

[Jim Koepke]

Please excuse some of the grammar.

Is there a date associated with his statements?

To me there is a finite point where a chisel needing too much time on the stones is abandoned for one that can retain an edge awhile between sharpenings.

None of my chisels are A1 or A2. Can not make any comments about their edge.

jtk

[Derek Cohen]

I wonder what medium he is using to hone his chisels? When it comes to A2 it does make a difference between sharp and close.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Hilton Ralphs]

Is there a date associated with his statements?


Is today current enough?

274927

[Chris Griggs]

I wonder what medium he is using to hone his chisels? When it comes to A2 it does make a difference between sharp and close.

Regards from Perth

Derek

That was my exact thought. In theory A2 is probably not the best choice for chisel, but in practice the LN chisels take and hold a very very good edge when honed on modern abrasives. On the other hand it is harder to get an edge as sharp as plain high carbon steel when honing A2 (or V11) on natural oil stones. I also find his comment about them being clunky odd. They are some of lightest most well balanced chisels I've ever handled. While I have used them a fair bit I don't even own the LNs so I'm not trying to "defend" a purchase or anything, but that evaluation is pretty incomplete, and doesn't really provide any context.

[Hilton Ralphs]

Looks like he's going to post his thoughts on four other brands over time. I guess Lie-Nielsen was just the first brand.

This is what he said before the part I posted earlier;

Again, excuse the grammar, spelling and English.

Not all tool manufacturer's do a good job of applying a bevel down the top of a chisel. Some like Lie Nielsen do beautiful job taking that almost right down to the back of the blade, and others like Crown put a little camfer on the top of the blade and call that a bevel. As far as I'm concerned this is taking the p...s, almost to the point of contravening the Trades Descriptions Act. I don't like manufacturers who play around like this and I won't hesitate to point it out and steer less knowledgeable people away from them.

In the same way that the Jack Plane is a multipurpose tool, so the bevel edged chisels used in lots of ways. Opening tins of No.....dont go there. It must function when we want to pare horizontally or vertically and where we want to strike it with a mallet not forcefully but with purpose. We need a delicate precision tool that will hold an edge well that will take a keen edge and will take a gentle battering.

[Derek Cohen]

Exactly Chris.

The interesting thing is that David Savage is saying that he cannot get the LN sharp enough to work on furniture (presumably with grits up to at least 6000), while Paul Sellers is saying 250 grit is enough. I wonder who is correct? :)

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Chris Griggs]

I wonder who is correct? :)


Oooo Derek, you're bad...you're just trying to start a riot. :)

[Hilton Ralphs]

I wonder who is correct?


Paul Sellers' workshop is in a castle (http://www.nationaltrust.org.uk/penrhyn-castle/)so that trumps everything ;)

[Keith Outten]

A review that seems so contradictory has little value.
.

[Chris Griggs]

Seems like the new thing for sale is how to woodwork with no investment.

Send me $5000 and I'll tell you how to make masterpieces with nothing more than putty knife honed on a brick...you have to supply your own wood though:p

(sorry, too snarky?)

((not that I think boutique tools are a requirement of good woodworking nor am I in any opposed to the idea of being able to woodwork with a minimal investment. I'll be the first guy to agree with Paul Sellers when he says how much you can do with Bailey no.4 with a stock blade and I am happy to tell you how to get a great edge with nothing more than a $20 india stone and a $5 stick of honing compound....but really, some of this stuff is starting to seem contradictory just for the sake of being contradictory....everyone loves a rebel right?))

[Simon MacGowen]

Exactly Chris.

The interesting thing is that David Savage is saying that he cannot get the LN sharp enough to work on furniture (presumably with grits up to at least 6000), while Paul Sellers is saying 250 grit is enough. I wonder who is correct? :)

Regards from Perth

Derek

The obvious answer, which Derek probably already knew, is both are right. The right answer depends on what the user or holder of the chisel so sharpened expects to achieve. I now use both the traditional sharpening method (waterstones up to 8,000 grits) for both blades and chisels as well as Paul's diamond stone approach (up to the stropping) for chisels only. I have not detected any major differences between the two in terms of the outcome of my work. Paul's method does have the advantage of using little water which can be unpleasant in a cold shop during the winter.

As for grammar and spellings, the source (magazine, blog?) is not revealed and we have no way of telling the need for perfect grammar and spellings. Bloggers, unless they are on the English language, tend to be less concerned about such aspects as their intentions are to share their observations and knowledge. In the business context, emails have replaced traditional letters and memos; people these days are, sadly, not putting the same kind of effort they used to when writing them.

I would have expected the magazine's editor to clean up David's prose if indeed it was a magazine piece. The writing failure here is the editor's and not David's, in my opinion.

While on the subject, I found Tom Fidgen's first book full of errors and was surprised that it was edited by PW. His second book, by FW, has just come out and I haven't had a chance to lay my hands on it yet, but I surely expect it to be well polished by the editorial team at FW. Tom is a skilled craftsman and it was a shame that his fine work was distracted by the editing deficiency in the first book.

Simon

[Hilton Ralphs]

Seems like the new thing for sale is how to woodwork with no investment.


If you take into account the overall goal of making woodworking more accessible to the younger generation and prettier gender class, then surely it's better to go with the initial 'less is more' approach? From someone who doesn't live in the UK or USA, it's often quite disheartening to read magazine blogs telling you that the Chinese junk that's available to you is not good enough.

We all have our biases and preferences of course and Paul Sellers has some pretty strong views on sharpening methods.

I'd like to see what David Savage says about the other brands but one thing is for sure, he makes beautiful furniture.

[Hilton Ralphs]

As for grammar and spellings, the source (magazine, blog?) is not revealed and we have no way of telling the need for perfect grammar and spellings.


It was an email and I posted a screen shot earlier.

[Sean Hughto]

Uh, LN offers them in O-1 as well as A-2. Mr. Savage appears to be ignorant of this fact.

[Chris Griggs]

If you take into account the overall goal of making woodworking more accessible to the younger generation and prettier gender class, then surely it's better to go with the initial 'less is more' approach? From someone who doesn't live in the UK or USA, it's often quite disheartening to read magazine blogs telling you that the Chinese junk that's available to you is not good enough.

We all have our biases and preferences of course and Paul Sellers has some pretty strong views on sharpening methods.

I'd like to see what David Savage says about the other brands but one thing is for sure, he makes beautiful furniture.

Yeah, I totally agree. I'm all about starting with only what you need and only what you can afford. I get so annoyed when someone says you NEED this or that premium tool to get into woodworking, and not being independantly wealthy often got very disheartened when I was just starting out as I couldn't run out and buy all the tools I was told (by mags and bloggers) I needed at once. I like very very much what these guys are preaching in principal, but I guess I find that their delivery comes across as being contradictory just for the sake of it.

Taking the example of the 250 grit sharpening video...that video would have been far more valuable if instead of trying to say the a 250 grit edge is good enough (it won't be for most folks for long), that he had shown how to get a truly good and refined edge with a really inexpensive setup. Telling a beginner woodworker that a 250 edge is good enough for most their work doesn't really do them a service. Showing them how to get a refined edge without spending a bunch of money is far more helpful.

[Malcolm Schweizer]

I own a full set of LN bevel edge and mortice chisels and a fishtail and corner chisel. The A2 steel takes a fine edge on waterstones. They certainly get the job done. What amazed me about the original post is the comment that they are heavy and I think he said "clumsy" or something of the sort. Really? I find them to be very light and smaller than I expected them to be. Perhaps it's just that I am used to old heavy tools, but these are anything but clumsy. The mortice chisels certainly have some heft, which is what you want in a mortice chisel. The bevel edged chisels I would describe as nimble in the hand, i.e. Light and maneuverable.

[Hilton Ralphs]

Taking the example of the 250 grit sharpening video...that video would have been far more valuable if instead of trying to say the a 250 grit edge is good enough (it won't be for most folks for long), that he had shown how to get a truly good and refined edge with a really inexpensive setup. Telling a beginner woodworker that a 250 edge is good enough for most their work doesn't really do them a service. Showing them how to get a refined edge without spending a bunch of money is far more helpful.

He has done this in the past.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvTcReENk9g

The sound of the 15k sharpened blade is awesome though!

[Simon MacGowen]

It was an email and I posted a screen shot earlier.

Thanks, as I didn't see anything about the source in this thread.

In that case, the lack of attention to the language mechanics is fully understandable (and acceptable in my book).

Simon

[Chris Griggs]

He has done this in the past.


Yeah, I've seen that. Too me, that video is more about his sharpening technique. I wouldn't call that set of diamond stones sharpening on the cheap. Anyway, I don't mean to harp on Sellers too badly. He puts out some cool stuff, and its easy for me to sit here from computer and criticize him...I probably shouldn't, I mean its not like I have real expertise or am putting any kind of content out there (that reads as sarcastic but i mean that in earnest).

My only point was that I felt like he sorta lost the point in that one video, and also, in regards to the Savage thing, it really just came across, to me, like he just had an axe to grind. I don't question either of these guys expertise, but I just think as experts who earn money for sharing their expertise, they need to be careful about keeping things in context.

[David Weaver]

Send him a modern stone or something made of diamonds. I believe steve elliot proved (mechanically measured) that the sharpness of the various steels does not vary with diamonds. I never felt the edge lacking on any A2 tools until I got into using A2 more.

Paul would have a different reason to not like them with his normal sharpening regime, that being that most are harder and thicker and less fast to grind by hand.

Some of this stuff (paul putting videos out of sharpening with an india stone and David Savage describing LN chisels as avoidable) doesn't do anything to help beginners look past their feet, it just feeds the discussions of rudimentary stuff and gets people stuck in the mud. Beginners lack experience, and if the instructors disregarded most of this stuff and said "do it however you like, you'll figure it out", maybe people would move on to the "what should the things I'm building look like to be pleasing to the eye" a little earlier.

[lowell holmes]

I don't need some unknown (to me) tell me about my chisels.

I'm happy with my LN chisels well as my water stones (seldom use them) and my diamond hones (keep the fine out on my bench).

l also like my Ray Iles pig stickers.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

I kind of see what he means about the LN chisels - the first time I picked one up, I was surprised by their weight - they're much thicker than a lot of the chisels I'm using. The difference between the 1/4" Lie Nielsen and the the 1/4" Ashley Iles I have was quite a bit. I prefered the lighter AI chisel, but it depends on what you're doing with the tool.

[Jim Matthews]

I wonder if the originating article is pointing out that more expensive tools may not be necessary in order to start out?

Woodworking has egalitarian roots, and if it becomes expensive to start out - the craft will wither.
I have great admiration for some of the new materials, but work just fine with "second tier" steel that I can sharpen quickly.

It might be helpful if there was a standard for honing, and a record of how long it takes to get a product sharp enough to do X procedure.
Following that, a measure of Y retention would be revelatory.

If I follow the subtext of Mr. Sellers' latest sharpening publication, it's around some very inexpensive chisels that anyone can afford.

I purchase tools often for their own sake. Active furniture makers are figuring all costs against their bottom line.

Those approaches are very different.

[Steve Voigt]

When I first saw the title of this thread, i thought it was referring to Dan Savage, the guy who writes the "Savage Love" column.
At least that would have been interesting.

[george wilson]

It is true that A2 will not take quite as sharp an edge as plain W1 type unalloyed carbon steel. 01 will get a teeny bit sharper than A2 will,but won't quite match the W1. It is a trade off: Maximum sharpness for minimum edge durability.

That being said,A2 will take quite a good enough edge for woodworking if honed right. The 1 time recently when I HAD to have the maximum sharpness in an edge,was when I was trying to skive down the flesh side of some very fluffy chrome tanned sea ray skin. I was restoring an antique covered with tissue thin ray skin. I could not get the 01 block plane blade to quite cut the fuzzy stuff. Only my W1 blade managed to do it. But,that is an extreme example to say the least. For cutting wood,which is a rigid material,the A2 blades I have do quite well enough.

The time you will need the very sharpest edge you can get is when cutting across the end grain of that obnoxious radiate pine the bores sell ! The softer the wood,the sharper your tools need to be.

[Mike Brady]

I chop with my A-2 Lie-Nielsen chisels and pare with a couple of their O-1's. I have rid myself of numerous others. Maybe this reviewer should go shopping with Mr. Sellers at his local Aldi grocery store...that is where Paul is buying his chisels now. Really. Read his blog.

What is it about English woodworking gurus? The four that come to mind: Sellars, the guy above, Charlesworth. Blackburn; all impress me as being arrogant about their skills to the point of hubris. Also a bit cheap. Sure, they can make those old Stanleys whistle a tune as they glide down a board, but can the average person (student) make an antique tool perform as well as a modern premium one? I think it has to be a cultural thing. That said, there certainly is much to be learned from all of them.

[phil harold]

What is it about English woodworking gurus? The four that come to mind: Sellars, the guy above, Charlesworth. Blackburn; all impress me as being arrogant about their skills to the point of hubris. Also a bit cheap.

Maybe they are Scottish
arrogant and cheap...
sounds like my father

[david charlesworth]

Oh dear Mike,

If I thought I was as arrogant as those two, I might have to shoot myself.

(I do not know anything about Graham Blackburn).

Best wishes,
David

[Zach Dillinger]

Oh dear Mike,

If I thought I was as arrogant as those two, I might have to shoot myself.

(I do not know anything about Graham Blackburn).

Best wishes,
David

Awkward... :)

[Adam Cruea]

Oh dear Mike,

If I thought I was as arrogant as those two, I might have to shoot myself.

(I do not know anything about Graham Blackburn).

Best wishes,
David

I'm glad I'm not the only one that had that thought.

I thought I was kind of bad with my "I prefer LN because of the traditional look of the tools as opposed to LV". I gotta say, that dude took the cake, ate it, and crapped it back out on the same plate in the blink of an eye.

[Adam Cruea]

I chop with my A-2 Lie-Nielsen chisels and pare with a couple of their O-1's. I have rid myself of numerous others. Maybe this reviewer should go shopping with Mr. Sellers at his local Aldi grocery store...that is where Paul is buying his chisels now. Really. Read his blog.

What is it about English woodworking gurus? The four that come to mind: Sellars, the guy above, Charlesworth. Blackburn; all impress me as being arrogant about their skills to the point of hubris. Also a bit cheap. Sure, they can make those old Stanleys whistle a tune as they glide down a board, but can the average person (student) make an antique tool perform as well as a modern premium one? I think it has to be a cultural thing. That said, there certainly is much to be learned from all of them.

'Tis easier to learn from humility than arrogance.

As far as I care, anyone with an attitude that thinks their poo doesn't stick can go chew my sassafrass.

People with arrogance are what turn others away from learning a craft or even approaching it and learning to appreciate it. I don't care if you can make gold from lead; have some humility and realize there are others out there that don't toot their own horns that can probably do things better and faster.

So, to sum it up, after reading some of what the "woodworking gurus" say, I say stuff it, Mr. Blowhard. You didn't start out on top, and with the attitude, you won't stay on top for long. I'd much rather talk to someone down-to-earth that knows half of what an arrogant "guru" knows.

[glenn bradley]

Exactly Chris.

The interesting thing is that David Savage is saying that he cannot get the LN sharp enough to work on furniture (presumably with grits up to at least 6000), while Paul Sellers is saying 250 grit is enough. I wonder who is correct? :)

Regards from Perth

Derek

They both are. It is up to us to decide who to follow ;-)

[Mike Brady]

Ah, David, you may be a victim of my "cultural profiling". Hopefully you didn't take offense, as my comments are directed more at teaching techniques rather than at personalities. In fact, Blackburn is the only one of those mentioned I have met in person.

To my point, the impression I get from the video instruction I have watched is that the use of old Stanley planes and such is "a piece of cake" that makes investment in modern premium tools just a egoistic extravagance. My twenty five years experience in using old and new hand tools has taught me that the reverse is true. I have many finely prepared Stanley planes and there is not one I would trade for the equivalent modern tool. Thus my conclusion that the Brits I mentioned, including yourself, while obviously very skilled, come across to me as if to say "I can read the bloody newspaper through my shavings...and you can't". In fairness to you, your ruler trick and sharpening regime have always been what I have followed. Paul, on the other hand, recently wrote of sharpening only to the task at hand. He rarely teaches with anything other than boot sale #4 or equivalent. That is oversimplifying a needed skill set to the point of being unfair to the student. in my opinion. You are certainly not guilty of that!

As a word of advise to those on your side of the pond who want to gain a U.S. audience: The American hobbyist is also largely a consumer of (new) American goods. Tom Lie-Nielsen knows that very well. Bashing or discounting the validity of the tools currently being produced here by a number of makers is short-sighted. I even saw you one time in a video sporting a #5-1/2 LN plane. Wasn't bad, was it?

[David Weaver]

I have to give david the benefit of the doubt, he plays all of the instruments in the orchestra. I've seen him recommend lie nielsen chisels and other tools without reservation (vs. bashing them as the topic of the OP has done), and at the same time, discuss the 5 1/2 stanley that shows up in all of the videos as proof that a tool that's out of whack to start with (which isn't the case for most stanley tools) can be used with good effect.

[Mike Tekin]

I agree, so does Paul Sellers

In addition at last years Woodworking show Paul Sellers told me Lie-nielsen makes wonderful tools as well as Veritas , Auriou, etc, he wasn't arrogant at all.

As a matter of fact people bring honing guides, Lie-Nielsen, Veritas, etc to his schools- he doesn't judge.

I think people are quick to judge and label.

[Chris Griggs]

Oh dear Mike,

If I thought I was as arrogant as those two, I might have to shoot myself.

(I do not know anything about Graham Blackburn).

Best wishes,
David

This just became my new favorite thread of all time :). You're a classy guy DC, and your response to this thread shows it.

[Tony Wilkins]

This just became my new favorite thread of all time :). You're a classy guy DC, and your response to this thread shows it.

+1: I don't know Mr. Savage or his work but the Messiers Charlesworth and Sellers I'm familiar with their work and their online interactions. Both, to my mind, have been attentive to answer questions and provide a great service to the woodworking community. My only problem with Mr. Sellers is that often his teaching is somewhat different than what I've learned elsewhere - leaving me to find the touchstone of commonality or testing which works better for me. I've come to believe that many of the differences between teachers comes from cutting the end of the proverbial hams.

FWIW, which t'aint much, I really like the feel of the LN chisels and find them very adept at both paring and chopping.

[Hilton Ralphs]

I've seen him recommend lie nielsen chisels and other tools without reservation (vs. bashing them as the topic of the OP has done)

I'm the OP and I certainly wasn't bashing any product. This is just the first brand that he's reviewed so to speak. Everyone is jumping all over him for not worshiping LN but for all we know, maybe he doesn't like any of the chisel makers. :D

As and when he 'reviews' more chisel brands, I'll post them accordingly.

Given he's in the UK, I wonder which brands are on the list? I'm guessing Ashley Isles, Narex, Sorby, Crown and Bahco perhaps?

[David Weaver]

+1: I don't know Mr. Savage or his work but the Messiers Charlesworth and Sellers I'm familiar with their work and their online interactions. Both, to my mind, have been attentive to answer questions and provide a great service to the woodworking community. My only problem with Mr. Sellers is that often his teaching is somewhat different than what I've learned elsewhere - leaving me to find the touchstone of commonality or testing which works better for me. I've come to believe that many of the differences between teachers comes from cutting the end of the proverbial hams.

FWIW, which t'aint much, I really like the feel of the LN chisels and find them very adept at both paring and chopping.

I'd call it market differentiation, and sometimes a peeing contest of sorts. David Charlesworth seems to limit his peeing to the men's room, though. I would categorize, from a user's standpoint, David's methods as extremely precise. You may not need to be so precise on a day to day basis, but you have the option and can let experience be your guide.

I've never seen David say anything that I thought salesy or offensive, either, and I have a very sensitive salesy-ness antenna.

[David Weaver]

Given he's in the UK, I wonder which brands are on the list? I'm guessing Ashley Isles, Narex, Sorby, Crown and Bahco perhaps? Japanese are possible. I can't imagine he'd waste much time with sorby, and I don't say that to be offensive to them, I just get the sense that they are satisfied with their status quo.

Pfeil may also be an option in the UK.

There are plenty of reasons to not like the LN chisels from a design standpoint, but to criticize a new manufacture chisel because it's A2 and then call O1 great can only be defended from an "oilstones are the only way to go" perch. If one has an abrasive that cuts all of the things that are present in A2, there will be no practical difference other than that at multi micron grits, A2 holds a wire edge a little longer. That is easily remedied with a fine stone or bare leather. Even a $10 piece of biggs jasper to chase the wire bits will take care of the issue.

[Tony Wilkins]

The person I've seen that strikes me as having the most 'salesy-ness' is actually an American. He left me with such a bad taste in my mouth I have watched very little of him.

[paul cottingham]

The person I've seen that strikes me as having the most 'salesy-ness' is actually an American. He left me with such a bad taste in my mouth I have watched very little of him.
The word huckster comes to mind. Not saying he is, just comes across like one.
David Charlesworth, on the other hand is the real deal, and he is not annoying to watch, I don't watch his videos then feel like I have to buy a gadget in order to do good woodworking.

[John Sanford]

As for grammar and spellings, the source (magazine, blog?) is not revealed and we have no way of telling the need for perfect grammar and spellings. Bloggers, unless they are on the English language, tend to be less concerned about such aspects as their intentions are to share their observations and knowledge. In the business context, emails have replaced traditional letters and memos; people these days are, sadly, not putting the same kind of effort they used to when writing them. It is a business context. This was received via David Savage's subscription list.


I would have expected the magazine's editor to clean up David's prose if indeed it was a magazine piece. The writing failure here is the editor's and not David's, in my opinion. It's not from a magazine, it is essentially David's "e-letter".

It's not the grammar or spelling which bothers me, it's the fact that I had to read it three times and I'm still not quite sure what he was saying... I've read my share of philosophers and academics, so parsing dense text is in my repetoire, even if it's not something I do every day. This was incomplete, unclear, scattered, and jumpy. It's almost as if the first half of a rambling conversation/observation was recorded for posterity, but the followup questions and clarifications weren't. Normally, DS's newsletters are not this disjointed, so I wonder whether he simply had to dash this off and we got what would normally be a first draft...

[Joe Leigh]

The word huckster comes to mind. Not saying he is, just comes across like one.
David Charlesworth, on the other hand is the real deal, and he is not annoying to watch, I don't watch his videos then feel like I have to buy a gadget in order to do good woodworking.

Huckster is a good word for him. Or carnival barker. The name Harold Hill comes quickly to mind.....

[John Sanford]

Everyone is jumping all over him for not worshiping LN but for all we know, maybe he doesn't like any of the chisel makers. :D
To be clear, I'm not jumping on him for not worshiping LN. I'm dinging him for a confusing, garbled piece. I've been subscribing to him for some time, and before I subscribed I bopped around his site some, followed his links, etc. As best I could ascertain, Mr Savage is both a fine craftsman AND an excellent mentor/instructor, at least based on the work of some of his students. And his responses to the few questions I've emailed him have been both courteous and informative.

As for the matter of arrogance, I think that's largely a perception based on a difference in teaching style. Most, if not all, of the European "masters" who are in the public realm teaching come from a "guild/crafts" system where the student is the product, not the customer. It's the master's time and money that are being expended on the student. Those who've served in the military likely clearly understand the difference in approach to physical training between a drill instructor, and the personal trainer down at the gym. One encourages you, the other tells you in no uncertain terms what to do.

[Tony Wilkins]

The word huckster comes to mind. Not saying he is, just comes across like one.
David Charlesworth, on the other hand is the real deal, and he is not annoying to watch, I don't watch his videos then feel like I have to buy a gadget in order to do good woodworking.


Huckster is a good word for him. Or carnival barker. The name Harold Hill comes quickly to mind.....

I didn't mention a name; you think you know who I was talking about? ;)

[David Weaver]

I'm curious who the american is. We seem to like our instruction from foreigners. (charlesworth, sellers, klausz, odate, cosman, wearing...)

i use we loosely. i have only bought more than one piece of media with charlesworth and don/larry.

[Sean Hughto]

I assumed they meant RC, but forgot he was Canadian, eh?

[Chris Griggs]

I'm curious who the american is. We seem to like our instruction from foreigners. (charlesworth, sellers, klausz, odate, cosman, wearing...)

i use we loosely. i have only bought more than one piece of media with charlesworth and don/larry.

Dave, you do realize that the US is not the only country in America right? I believe the "American" he is referring to is Canadian....oops did I just give away the secret...sorry Tony.

[David Weaver]

Most canadians that I know are proud enough of being from Canada that they'd chew you out if you called them an american.

[Chris Griggs]

Most canadians that I know are proud enough of being from Canada that they'd chew you out if you called them an american.

Hey, I didn't call him an American, Tony did.

Geez Tony, why you gotta always generate so much controversy.

[paul cottingham]

I totally forgot he was a Canadian. So I guess I meant American in the generic way....fighting words for most of us Canadians.

[Patrick McCarthy]

Oh dear Mike,

If I thought I was as arrogant as those two, I might have to shoot myself.

(I do not know anything about Graham Blackburn).

Best wishes,
David

David, if you are arrogant, I have totally missed it. Having yet to meet you in person, my impressions are based upon watching your DVDs several different times. You seemed like a decent chap, but I guess I better go watch them again, as it is conceivable I was focused too much upon the skill and content . . . . . . . Glad you are back to good health. Slainte mhaith, Patrick

[Patrick McCarthy]

I totally forgot he was a Canadian. So I guess I meant American in the generic way....fighting words for most of us Canadians.

WHOA, dude, I thought the only fighters were the Canadiens . . . .

[paul cottingham]

WHOA, dude, I thought the only fighters were the Canadiens . . . .
Man, so many jokes only a Canadian would get.....

[Tony Wilkins]

I thought Canadians was a hockey team. I didn't know RC was Canadian; like I said he turned me off so quick I didn't find out much more about him. Sorry to offend any Canadians; what do I know, I'm a Texan so the US is there between us ;)

But yeah, you guessed it, I was trying to be diplomatic lol.

So to get all this straight, RC is Canadian eh, and we're agreed to blame David Charlesworth for the Stamp Act of the mid 17th century.

[Brian Holcombe]

I agree with mike. Paul sellers doesn't strike me as arrogant, just to the point. I think he does not want to impose a lot of spending on his audience, which is one of the reasons so people take his views as being cheap/arrogant.

Being constantly in search of the latest/greatest is not always a nessecary thing.

so, relax it's just one persons opinion.

[David Weaver]

I don't necessarily see him as being cheap at all. I think he'd probably like to see people spending money on his courses, at his retreat/ww school, on his DVDs, etc - instead of on tools.

We'll always get some sort of bias. Personally, I'm biased in the sense that I think most people will learn more at their bench than they will watching classes, unless there's something really specific you need to know (carving specific elements, etc).

Some folks have DVDs published by LN, though I have to admit that there's not a lot of pure sales push in those videos.

Tommy mac is another example - I don't know if I could still find it, but there was a spot where he was really pushing the made in china wood river chisels as super high end save it for special work type tools. I really liked tommy mac's original videos, but even at that, I understand he was making them hoping to get picked up for a TV show, so the original sense of "oh, here's this guy who just loves making videos so we can see them, etc", they were excellent videos, I thought, but the level of effort that went into those videos was to get a show.

[Jim Matthews]

The ALDI chisels look very much like the Narex chisels used at the class I attended. They sharpen quickly and hone to a keen edge. I would submit that outfitting an introductory course with very expensive tools would add to costs.

Lower costs might attract a broader student body, including those with a limited budget.

It's my contention that modern steel making has produced very high quality at ever lower prices. If the ALDI chisels are in fact the same steel as the Narex chisels, they're a smoking bargain. That takes nothing away from makers of the finest tools - it's merely an invitation to those with an interest to test their skills without a huge outlay of cash.

I don't think that this demonstration was intended to do anything more than to show how good results can be had with careful handling of basic materials.

In the New Legacy school, there was a full array of modern hand tools. I never heard disparaging discussions of modern tool makers. Lumping Mr. Sellers in with Mr. Savage is an unfair comparison.

[Derek Cohen]

In the past, woodworkers learned their trade in a formal apprenticeship under the tutelage of experienced hands and eyes, learning skills by practice, following rules until they became second nature - where topics such as sharpening were much the same as breathing; one did not need to discuss this, one just did it and moved on.

Today we have a great many amateurs (like myself) who became involved with woodworking and entered this via self-education: books, magazines and, increasingly, forums and videos, made by both professionals and amateurs. The latter area is dominating increasingly, and there appears to be enough of an audience to support all at this stage. Indications are that sales of magazines (especially) and books are falling away, and being replaced with visual media. Perhaps this reflects a need for more instant enlightenment, or the advantage of the visual demonstration, or a bit of both. It is in amateur forums such as this, along with all the others, where beliefs (such as what is required for a sharp edge) are created, and then fostered until they become lore. Newbies entering the hobby cannot tell good from bad advice.

The professional educator needs to market themselves in order to sell their product. What we see are different methods, personalities, areas of expertise, etc. coming into play. Some educators have been around a long time and trusted, and some are just entering the game and need to prove themselves. Some appear to seek to stand out from the pack by being provocative, some appeal to the entry level woodworker, some hard sell success, and others offer insightful information to develop advanced skillsets. Learn to discriminate what is a sales pitch and what is not.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Brian Ashton]

I do see his point, sharp vs edge retention. It all depends on what kind of work the craftsman does and what materials are used. I personally prefer a tool steel that allows me to get the sharpest edge that I can attain, touching the edge up is indeed quick. This being said it can be a drag when you are to a fro between the bench and sharpening.

Even with metal working I prefer to use HSS cutters over carbide because of the sharpness of the edge attainable and the resulting finish. I resort to carbide cutters for machining of harder and more abrasive materials only.

Two faces of the cutting edge coin.

I agree with you there. Carbon steel or O1 can be sharpened to a degree that it feels like the tool could pull itself through the wood it's so sharp, even against the grain - I prefer that. I've made a lot of chisels and such over the decades and I tend to harden the O1 a bit more than is considered the best… I like that the characteristics of it allow me get it so sharp that I feel like I could pare a hair. It won't last as long and you need to be careful not to chip the edge but it's what I like… Any A2 I've had just doesn't get to a point where it feels like it will pull itself though the wood. To each their own. What's great is we have choice.

Part of my living was made by turning cremation urns and I could get 2 or 3 urns out of a single carbide sharpening but it was rough. The tips would be sticky sharp for about 10 seconds but after that they maintained a useable edge for a very long time but they left a fairly rough surface. The HSS bits wouldn't even last a single urn but the edge was sticky sharp for longer which allowed for a better finish and effort expended was much less and the finish much better when they were sharp.

[Chris Griggs]

we're agreed to blame David Charlesworth for the Stamp Act of the mid 17th century.

Yeah, that's totally DC's fault. What a jerk! :)

[Chris Parks]

I want to continue on Derek's theme for a bit. During his apprenticeship the student had the visual advantage of standing next to a tradesman and watching, afterwards being corrected and most probably shown again. Video is the closest most can come to this apart from attending a seminar/tutorial and then it is generally for a very limited time though some fortunate souls may attend a college/school for more extensive courses. YouTube and video are the closest thing we have that demonstrate in a visual way those skills that the apprentice learned during his years with the tradesman. Books while good cannot have the same tutorial value.

[Hilton Ralphs]

WHOA, dude, I thought the only fighters were the Canadiens . . . .


Man, so many jokes only a Canadian would get.....


fighting words for most of us Canadians.

I had to look it up but I now get the joke.

[Chris Hachet]

...knowledge is good, but at some point you just need to get out into the shop and find things that work your you. Lately, I have been working mostly in quarter sawn white oak. I have been using Lie Nielson chisels and Japanese chisels, both of which hone up nice enough on diamond stones to do anything I want, even if I use hickory as a secondary wood. Methinks the original review is pretty much "much ado about nothing."

[Jim Foster]

I suspect the apprentices learned how to sharpen because it's the job they got until they were experts, and then some, and then maybe some more. Also, they probably had to do the rough planing so the lead craftsmen could focus on finish work. That way, the basics were literally ground into the apprentices via getting the "crap" jobs until they were ready to move up to more demanding skills.

Being self taught (poorly I might add) in the 80's and 90's or marketed to by magazines was a frustrating path, I was taught that western handsaws did not work and you needed to buy Japanese hand saws, and that routers were critical in a home shop. (I somehow got the feeling you really needed two or three routers of varying sizes in every shop) What seems to stick the most is being instilled with the need to have a big shop where you could have lots of power equipment, like on the New Yankee Workshop. The articles on the guys using handtools and small shops seemed very esoteric and far from the mainstream back then. I am probably also a product of my fathers shop efforts. He got a shop full of equipment from a friends grandfather that passed away. It included a tablesaw, jointer, electric drill and beltsander, along with a chest full of handplanes, chisels, screwdrivers and other hand tools. The power tools and screwdrivers got used, everything else was eventually removed from the chest of drawers to make room for other tools. The chisels were used to open cans, the handplanes were treated as oddities from a day gone by. (I'm pretty sure he had some nice Stanley 750s and the handplanes included several bullnose type planes, several block planes and the normal three sizes for taking wood from rough to finish.) Somehow the chisels and handplanes disappeared during my early childhood. I do however still have his saw-blade setting tool

With the Internet and the free flow of information provided, today is a I think it's a wonderful time to pick up woodworking as a hobby because you can see how people sharpen blades, ask questions and pick a path for yourself and select tools much more easily than you could 20 and 30 years ago.


In the past, woodworkers learned their trade in a formal apprenticeship under the tutelage of experienced hands and eyes, learning skills by practice, following rules until they became second nature - where topics such as sharpening were much the same as breathing; one did not need to discuss this, one just did it and moved on.

Today we have a great many amateurs (like myself) who became involved with woodworking and entered this via self-education: books, magazines and, increasingly, forums and videos, made by both professionals and amateurs. The latter area is dominating increasingly, and there appears to be enough of an audience to support all at this stage. Indications are that sales of magazines (especially) and books are falling away, and being replaced with visual media. Perhaps this reflects a need for more instant enlightenment, or the advantage of the visual demonstration, or a bit of both. It is in amateur forums such as this, along with all the others, where beliefs (such as what is required for a sharp edge) are created, and then fostered until they become lore. Newbies entering the hobby cannot tell good from bad advice.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[george wilson]

All of the work I have ever posted here,including the latest guitar,were made with my old 1965ish set of Marples chisels. I can't recommend the new ones as I don't know if they are the same quality,or gone softer.

[David Weaver]

gone softer.

Smart money would be on that. I had a 1980s set of english made blue chips and they were pretty soft. One of the five was much softer than the others, too, something like saw temper.

[Zach Dillinger]

All of the work I have ever posted here,including the latest guitar,were made with my old 1965ish set of Marples chisels. I can't recommend the new ones as I don't know if they are the same quality,or gone softer.

This should be shouted from the mountaintops :)

[paul cottingham]

I had to look it up but I now get the joke.
Sorry to be so obtuse. Sometimes I can't help myself. (But I probably should.)

[Tom Blank]

Back to the OP's original topic, I have the same chisel review as in the OP's quote in an e-mail from Mr Savage on 12 April 2012 and again in another e-mail on 5 November 2012. Both e-mail had additional info/opinions other than the paragraphs posted above. Perhaps that helps with the time line question someone asked earlier.

In Mr Savage's review, seems he was good with the design, quality, and workmanship of the LN chisels, he simply does not like A2 steel. He has expressed that opinion on other occasions. To date I have not seen any reviews by him of other chisels.

Tom

[Chris Griggs]

Okay, I just rewatched that Paul Sellers "Sharpen to 250 grit" video, and on second viewing....actually its pretty good, and I don't really disagree with anything he said. I think there are some things he left out about edge retention or the helpfulness of sharper edges on woods more prone to tearout, and I thought he over emphasized the amount of time required to get to higher grit edges, but really he did a good job showing that there are some situations where you might not need that. Really, it is amazing what you can do with just a coarse/fine india stone, and this video could be very helpful to someone just getting there first plane, who just wants to make a few things out of well behaved pine and poplar.

Not that I'm going to stop honing to at least 8k, but its not a bad video and he did address the fact that having a higher grit edge can be very necessary...he didn't give all the context BUT he did acknowledge that context matters.

[Derek Cohen]

What has not been clearly differentiated is honing high for the tool and honing high for the wood. They are separate issues.

A smoother surface is not always wanted or even evident to the eye. Using a plane blade that was honed to 15000 will not necessarily look significantly different to a surface that comes from a blade honed to 1000 grit (also depends on the wood involved - don't try this with Jarrah!). Especially so after a finish is applied. Some finishes do not adhere well to a smooth surface and one has to "rough it up" with sandpaper before applying the finish.

Honing to a high level is often more about the ease of using a tool and the longevity of the edge. These are important factors when working with handtools.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Andrew Bell]

The problems with anyone giving advice is the expectation that they will come up with a unified conclusion that will apply to all situations.

In many examples the experts are correct and incorrect at the same time as their recommendations relate to specific methods of working and for specific applications, comparing one against another is often difficult / impossible to reconcile.

As a new woodworker, not knowing many others who have done anything of merit my source for inspiration and education is experts and online. The problem with the experts was stated above, the problem with many online contributions is that there is even less evidence of how they work, what alternatives they have tried and a bias towards validating their own experiences and the money that they have spent to acquire something.

I feel that many of the tools out there are on a continuum that begins with tool shaped objects (hardware brand planes come to mind) through to usable but not ideal to a professional quality tool that will do what is expected of it to expensive works of art (many Japanese and infill planes come to mind)

The writing and perspectives rarely relate to where the tools fit on the scale or their pros or cons and descent to battles over minutiae.

Some will argue that if you buy every expensive new manufacture tool then you can do everything you want in woodworking - largely they will be correct. Others may put forward that those old tools were made for a reason and they can do everything that you want in woodworking, they are also probably going to be correct.

The problems are when these two camps try to align their experiences; valuing time, experience, willingness to customize or learn to rectify issues, enjoyment, budget and pride mean that the same tools put into different people's equations can lead to two different but valid opinions.

I'd love new shiny beautiful tools that are a joy to use, I can't afford them. I like restoring tools but my experience is limited as is my ability to measure my outputs against the end goals. What I'd really like is to know the pros and cons of any approach, where it fits on the scale and if there are alternatives that are more affordable but at what cost.

The passionate supporters of different experts and tools in this thread are all arguing over the results of people's conclusions, not the assumptions and values that went into them.

:)

[Jim Matthews]

I totally forgot he was a Canadian. So I guess I meant American in the generic way....fighting words for most of us Canadians.

It's an easy mistake to make.
Us round guys all look the same...

[Jim Matthews]

What has not been clearly differentiated is honing high for the tool and honing high for the wood. They are separate issues.
Honing to a high level is often more about the ease of using a tool and the longevity of the edge. These are important factors when working with handtools.
Regards from Perth Derek

That sounds very much like the instruction I received at the NL class.

The subtext in all the sharpening tutorials was getting a fine edge that lasted so long as possible.
The highly polished convex camber was not so much to get a better, or longer lasting edge but rather -
it was thought to provide less resistance to passing a chip or shaving beyond the cutting surface.

I'm unsure if it has a meaningful contribution to how well a tool cuts, but it's an indicator that polishing has been done right down to the edge.

It's my belief that many of Mr. Sellers' videos are simple deconstructions of extraneous assumptions that may have piled on top of useful techniques
in order to sell magazines, or justify the latest gadgets. The very idea that I could start making furniture without power tools
(Thank you, Tom Fidgen) was liberating.

This latest video (as with so many others) is a gentle encouragement to those starting out to get on with it, and add complexity when it's needed.

Don't get me wrong, I've butted heads with Mr. Sellers, personally - but he's forgotten more about this craft than I'm likely ever to learn.
If I understand the latest sharpening video correctly, it's just a demonstration of how much can be done with very basic materials.
In this instance, I don't think he had an axe to grind.

[lowell holmes]

I don't understand how Paul Sellers' view on sharpening can generate so much conversation, pro or con.

I bet he is loving every minute of it. :)

[Hilton Ralphs]

I don't understand how Paul Sellers' view on sharpening can generate so much conversation, pro or con.


Yes and this thread isn't even about him.

[george wilson]

FWIW,I am not going to stop at 220 grit when sharpening my tools. Especially my new paring chisels!!!:)(They might flex,even if they are too thick to do so!)

[John Sanford]

FWIW,I am not going to stop at 220 grit when sharpening my tools. Especially my new paring chisels!!!:)(They might flex,even if they are too thick to do so!)

Sooooo, thin 'em out George. If anybody around here has the skills to do so without messing up the blades, it's likely you. Write up a article on the process and give us a sense of how a "stock" Narex/LV parer compares to a Wilson ThinSpec Narex/LV parer.

:D

[george wilson]

I have thought about grinding them thinner,and easily could. I have a suitable Wilton Square Wheel grinder with a flat platen,among other things. But,since I won't likely be doing actual pattern making,I probably won't. I'm sure they will be just fine as is. As long as the width is consistent. Someone complained that their chisels got less wide at their front ends. I wouldn't want that to happen,and I'm sure it is an anomaly.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

Yeah, if anything, I'd want them to get less wide at the bolster end. (Which I believe the mortise chisels do) to keep from getting stuck.

[Mike Brady]

Okay, I just rewatched that Paul Sellers "Sharpen to 250 grit" video, and on second viewing....actually its pretty good, and I don't really disagree with anything he said. I think there are some things he left out about edge retention or the helpfulness of sharper edges on woods more prone to tearout, and I thought he over emphasized the amount of time required to get to higher grit edges, but really he did a good job showing that there are some situations where you might not need that. Really, it is amazing what you can do with just a coarse/fine india stone, and this video could be very helpful to someone just getting there first plane, who just wants to make a few things out of well behaved pine and poplar.

Not that I'm going to stop honing to at least 8k, but its not a bad video and he did address the fact that having a higher grit edge can be very necessary...he didn't give all the context BUT he did acknowledge that context matters.

Chris, I agree that his video and method of work in general is sensible. However, in this particular case he is assuming apparently that you are starting with tools so dull that they can't worked with. Here's my take away from Sellers video:

I must be making my tools too sharp.

I should stop work and take the time to sharpen each tool to the needs of the job at hand.

Perhaps I should have multiple chisels and planes of each size, sharpened to a range of grits and labelled as such.

No matter what grit you sharpen to, it still needs to be sharpened during the at that grit to maintain that edge. A dull tool is not the same as tool freshly sharpened to a coarse grit.


....or I'll just keep doing what I've been doing for 25 years.... make 'em as sharp as I know how, and live with it. I would rather freshen a 1/16'' wide secondary bevel at 8000 than a whole bevel at 1000.

[Chris Griggs]

Chris, I agree that his video and method of work in general is sensible. However, in this particular case he is assuming apparently that you are starting with tools so dull that they can't worked with. Here's my take away from Sellers video:

I must be making my tools too sharp.

I should stop work and take the time to sharpen each tool to the needs of the job at hand.

Perhaps I should have multiple chisels and planes of each size, sharpened to a range of grits and labelled as such.

No matter what grit you sharpen to, it still needs to be sharpened during the at that grit to maintain that edge. A dull tool is not the same as tool freshly sharpened to a coarse grit.


....or I'll just keep doing what I've been doing for 25 years.... make 'em as sharp as I know how, and live with it. I would rather freshen a 1/16'' wide secondary bevel at 8000 than a whole bevel at 1000.

Yeah I pretty feel the same way as you. I sharpen pretty much all my tools the same, and don't see any reason to have some tools less sharp then others..I mean its not like less sharp ever more desirable than more sharp, and once I'm at the stones it doesn't really take anything extra to go to the finest stone.

My comment on that video was more as a followup to my previous critical comments on it. Upon my second watching I liked it more, and just sorta took it as showing what one can do with just an india stone, and that at its face value is good info. On the other hand I would never recommend to anyone that they should stop there, when they have what is need to go finer.

Anyway, that's how I saw it...just as showing what one can do, not what one necessarily should do...I'm not a Seller follower and don't really have any particularly strong feelings either way, but I thought it was an interesting video at its face value, in spite of the fact that its context and overall point wasn't very well communicated.

[lowell holmes]

I attended some classes with Paul.
He keeps a hone out on the bench and when needed, he sharpens the tool.
It doesn't take long.

As a result, I keep a fine diamond hone and a strop out when working. It works for me.

[Julie Moriarty]

I own a full set of LN bevel edge and mortice chisels and a fishtail and corner chisel. The A2 steel takes a fine edge on waterstones. They certainly get the job done. What amazed me about the original post is the comment that they are heavy and I think he said "clumsy" or something of the sort. Really? I find them to be very light and smaller than I expected them to be. Perhaps it's just that I am used to old heavy tools, but these are anything but clumsy. The mortice chisels certainly have some heft, which is what you want in a mortice chisel. The bevel edged chisels I would describe as nimble in the hand, i.e. Light and maneuverable.

I have almost the same inventory of L-N chisels in my shop and I completely agree with you. I use waterstones for sharpening and have never been disappointed with the edge. And "clumsy" is the last word I'd use to describe them. I too found them to be smaller than expected but as soon as I started using them found they performed far better than my heftier chisels. About the only downside is it doesn't take a lot to loosen the handles, even if you give them a good set before using them.

[Aaron Rappaport]

What sort of stone did Paul Sellers use to achieve his 250 grit edge? I ask because if he used a 250 grit india stone then one could wonder if it cuts finer than a 250 grit waterstone for the same reason that it cuts slower - the grit isn't as sharp (as evidenced by electron microscope photos in, e.g., Leonard Lee's book on sharpening). If he used an old 250 grit diamond stone, then that also might be cutting finer and slower than a 250 grit waterstone. Anyone have any thoughts on what the equivalent waterstone grit would be?

-- Aaron

[marty shultz]

This is an interesting thread that has covered several topics.

Having taught many classes and received many reviews from adult students I can say that few teachers exist who's stye appeal to everyone. I find it interesting that a teacher can receive 25 A+ grades, and one D grade from students who sat in the same classroom. I would consistently get comments from the same class like "please go faster" and "please slow down"; "I want more detail" and "too much information for a class like this".

Communication is a two way street. Sometimes the instructor can mis-speak which causes a lot of confusion. Sometimes the correctly spoken message isn't the message received by the student. Students go on mental vacations, mis-interpret what was said, and get confused with the amount of information coming their way.

There is a fine line between arrogance and confidence. If you're not a confident instructor some may not think you are very good. Over confidence can be misinterpreted as arrogance.

I consider people's reviews "one persons opinion". If an expert is recommending a tool to me I don't necessarily think it will work best for me because my mental and physical abilities are different than theirs. But, the tool is probably worth looking at.

[Brian Holcombe]

Only thing that aggravates me about this review is that Lie Nielsen offers O1 chisels, so if A2 is so damning why not buy the O1 chisel? I bought a set with long handles for paring, since they are 25 degree and apparently are capable of being made sharper.

[Joel Goodman]

Only thing that aggravates me about this review is that Lie Nielsen offers O1 chisels, so if A2 is so damning why not buy the O1 chisel? I bought a set with long handles for paring, since they are 25 degree and apparently are capable of being made sharper.
+1 -- maybe the "reviewer" should look at the catalogue or website before writing.

[David Weaver]

If it's a regurgitated review from years ago, it'll be prior to LN making 01 chisels. Actually, it wasn't even that many years ago that LN had no chisels at all.

Being made sharper is dependent on abrasive. If you got some cheap diamond powder and put it on MDF with a little bit of oil, you'd never be able to tell the difference between the two in sharpness. Same is the case with most of the ceramic stones.

[Brian Holcombe]

I'm not terribly worried about that, I bought them for the 25 degree angle.

I sharpen to 6000 grit on Japanese water stones.

[Hilton Ralphs]

If it's a regurgitated review from years ago, it'll be prior to LN making 01 chisels.


If it is then surely he should have reassessed his views before sending out an email?

Sloppy and lazy.

[Brian Holcombe]

The O1 25 degree chisels are great, I bought them with paring handles and sharpened them. They were pretty damn near flat out of the box but definitely needed some work to get them paring with ease. They are doing the job with a touch more ease then my 30 degree chisels honed to 6k.