Table Saw Troubles

[Julie Moriarty]

I bought the PALS kit in an effort to give my old Delta contractor's saw a new lease on life.
http://americanwoodworker.com/cfs-filesystemfile.ashx/__key/CommunityServer.Blogs.Components.WeblogFiles/tools/12456_5F00_PALS.jpg
As per the instructions, I removed one mounting bolt and replaced that with the PALS stud. It was a bear clearing the hole in the trunnion bracket to allow the stud to be screwed into the table. Then I tightened that side and moved to the other side. This was worse. I could not get the hole in the trunnion to align to allow the stud to be screwed in. I would align it with a pin but once removed, it kept sliding out of alignment. Finally in desperation, I loosened the first side a bit. No luck.

I could find no way to align the hole on the second side and keep it there long enough to screw in the stud. I kept playing with it... and then the trunnion popped out of the rear trunnion bracket. :eek: Yes, I had loosened the first side enough to allow that. It's late. I'm tired. No need to lecture me, I know I screwed up. I just want help getting it back together again because it doesn't want to go.

I know there's tension somewhere causing it to spring back but I can't see where the tension is coming from.

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This morning I went back to the shop to take another look. I saw the front trunnion had slipped partially out of the bracket. http://i867.photobucket.com/albums/ab233/jules42651/Emoticons/eusa_silenced_zps2e2a6942.gif No way could I muscle that in place. It wouldn't budge. Trying to find something to suspend the heavy assembly while still allowing for enough movement to get things back again was a challenge. I finally settled on some Tradesman clamps. The front trunnion then easily fell into place. Then I completely removed the rear trunnion bracket. No way could I get it to seat in trunnion. What I found out was the tie bars were twisted. Where's a gorilla when you need one? A few cranks with a 36" crow bar fixed the problem.

I was then able to seat the trunnion and install the PALS studs. But before I put everything back together, I decided I needed to make sure everything moved right. I found there was a lot of play on the side hand wheel. After playing with it I realized the Allen screw in one of the collars was missing. I looked around but couldn't find Murphy hiding anywhere but he was definitely in the area. http://i867.photobucket.com/albums/ab233/jules42651/Emoticons/icon_confused_zps39351b99.gif Now I have to go out and buy a replacement.

Along the way I also discovered the V-belt and pulley wheel were out of alignment. Note to self: Don't wait 20 years to do a tune-up on your table saw.

I've been at this since 5AM. I'm going to have breakfast then pick up the Allen screw and some CRC dry moly lube. If anyone sees Murphy lurking, tell him there's free beer waiting for him in Wisconsin. http://i867.photobucket.com/albums/ab233/jules42651/Emoticons/sarcastic-buttkick1_zpsa03c4e76.gif

[Julie Moriarty]

Haven't made the shopping trip but I did go back down and see if I could align the blade with the miter slot. The best I could do was .0035 out of alignment with the back running away from the fence. It felt like I was hitting the side of the bolt hole in the trunnion. Do I need to loosen the front trunnion bracket bolts and move the front of the assembly to the right?

I also checked the runout. Inside was .001" and outside was .003". Are these acceptable numbers?

[Jerry Miner]

It felt like I was hitting the side of the bolt hole in the trunnion.

Julie---

I have never installed the PALS system, so I am not speaking from direct experience. I have, though fiddled with lots of mechanical systems. I think the statement quoted above is directly related to your initial issue of not being able to get both studs in at the same time.

You don't have enough adjustment room in the trunnion bracket holes. If it were me, I would remove the bracket (you're now experienced in removal and replacement ;)) and elongate the holes to provide more adjustment room. Then you should be able to dial in the parallelism (although .0035 is not that bad. You could probably ignore it---you have for 20 years, right?)

[Julie Moriarty]

Jerry,

I considered elongating the holes in the rear bracket but after what I had already gone through? http://i867.photobucket.com/albums/ab233/jules42651/Emoticons/eusa_snooty_zpsbe980426.gif So I decided to loosen the front bracket bolts and got a gorilla to nudge the front over a bit. That put me back on track, probably more like it was when it was new. I have no idea how long this has been out of whack but it's only been recently that things have seemed off. Anyway, I got the blade "dead-on b***s accurate", to quote Mona Lisa Vito. :D

The PALS worked great in aligning the blade with the miter slot. No more spring back. You just adjust the Allen bolts and watch the dial move.

Everything is coming together now but I'm still getting squeaking when cranking the height adjustment. I applied a dry lube to everything but I think the squeaking is coming from the shaft and I have no idea how to lubricate that. I can't even see most of it.

I've got to get the motor back on and adjust that. Who knows, maybe it will feel like a new table saw. http://i867.photobucket.com/albums/ab233/jules42651/Emoticons/E_CROS1_zps74f59dfe.gif

[John TenEyck]

Julie, I have fiddled with my C'man saw many times and it's probably no better than 0.003" with the miter slot, and I had to file the trunnion slots some to get that close. The side of the saw where the bevel handwheel is has a bow in it which pushes on that shaft and makes alignment a real PITA, even if the trunnion slots are large enough. I finally used a 2 x 4 to apply enough force to move the rear trunnion to where it is now. My 1954 Unisaw, on the other hand, was a breeze to align to less than half that and never moves. After 20 years, isn't it time to upgrade to a cabinet saw? Keep your eye out for a good used one and sell the contractor saw to help finance it. It'll be like night and day.

Did you send that wood to me yet?

John

[Julie Moriarty]

After 20 years, isn't it time to upgrade to a cabinet saw? Keep your eye out for a good used one and sell the contractor saw to help finance it. It'll be like night and day.

I got close. When I told my SO about what was then a disaster to me, I heard sweet music, "Do you need a new table saw?" http://i867.photobucket.com/albums/ab233/jules42651/Emoticons/eusa_dance_zpsd4c3285f.gif But dummy me kept working on it and I lost my chance. I should have sung the blues instead. :rolleyes:


Did you send that wood to me yet?

John

Didn't you get it yet? I mailed it. :D

[glenn bradley]

Depending on your saw you may have 3 or 4 trunnion bolts. When I put PALs on my old C-man I loosened all bolts just a bit, shifted everything so it was "in the middle" of the adjustable range and then snugged the single 5th bolt in the front. Swapped the PALs studs for the rear bolts and adjusted things from there. Snugged everything then did a final tweak and locked it all down. Never had to touch it again ;-)

[Julie Moriarty]

In my continuing effort to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear...

PALS are in place and now I have a "normal" table saw - align the world with the miter slot. ;)

I replaced the stock Unifence with a Uni-T-Fence (http://www.ptreeusa.com/uni_t_fence.htm) and added a couple of Board Buddies to it. Now I'm working on installing Micro Jig splitters into a couple of UHMW TS inserts. I find myself longing for the days when actual instructions were included with the products you buy. Micro Jig instructions tell you to go online and follow the video they provide. The video is great but I'm having a bit of difficulty taking my desktop computer, including monitor, down to the workshop, hooking it up to a LAN line, so I can follow the easy step-by-step instructions the video provides. http://i867.photobucket.com/albums/ab233/jules42651/Emoticons/icon_eek_zps49ddf6d4.gif (http://s867.photobucket.com/user/jules42651/media/Emoticons/icon_eek_zps49ddf6d4.gif.html)

[George Bokros]

Julie, my Micro Jig splitters came with printed instructions. If you would like I will see if I can locate them tomorrow and send you a scanned copy.

[Myk Rian]

I find myself longing for the days when actual instructions were included with the products you buy.
Yeah, well, get over it. ;)
They figure everyone has Internet access.

[Fred Belknap]

Julie just a note on the Delta contractor saw. I owned one and it did some things great but I came to the conclusion after much working and fighting with it that it had a design flaw. The motor is to heavy for the trunnion. Mine would align and saw great, you could stand a nickel on the cast iron with it running. Now if you turned the blade to any angle it would twist the trunnion out of alignment no matter how well it was tightened down. A few years ago I got a cabinet saw (Grizzly 1023) and it has worked fine. I don't recommend you put a lot of money and time in the Delta as it probably will never be what you want.

[Steve Kohn]

Julie just a note on the Delta contractor saw. I owned one and it did some things great but I came to the conclusion after much working and fighting with it that it had a design flaw. The motor is to heavy for the trunnion. Mine would align and saw great, you could stand a nickel on the cast iron with it running. Now if you turned the blade to any angle it would twist the trunnion out of alignment no matter how well it was tightened down. A few years ago I got a cabinet saw (Grizzly 1023) and it has worked fine. I don't recommend you put a lot of money and time in the Delta as it probably will never be what you want.

+1, I had the same experience with my Delta contractors saw. As long as you aligned it and then didn't change the blade angle it would work fine. If you ever moved the blade to cut an bevel then you would be back out of alignment. Usually it wasn't much individually but it would add a cumulative movement every time you tilted the blade. Over time my saw would continue to get worse until I'd be forced to realign it. I finally gave up and bought a Powermatic used from CL.

[Julie Moriarty]

Julie, my Micro Jig splitters came with printed instructions. If you would like I will see if I can locate them tomorrow and send you a scanned copy.

Thanks George but I found them on the Micro Jig website. They push the videos but I was able to find a printed version. That printed version included installation for GREEN and YELLOW versions of the Micro Jig. I have the RED and BLUE versions. http://i867.photobucket.com/albums/ab233/jules42651/Emoticons/eusa_doh_zps03302b01.gif But it didn't matter. I was able to make it work.


Julie just a note on the Delta contractor saw. I owned one and it did some things great but I came to the conclusion after much working and fighting with it that it had a design flaw. The motor is to heavy for the trunnion. Mine would align and saw great, you could stand a nickel on the cast iron with it running. Now if you turned the blade to any angle it would twist the trunnion out of alignment no matter how well it was tightened down. A few years ago I got a cabinet saw (Grizzly 1023) and it has worked fine. I don't recommend you put a lot of money and time in the Delta as it probably will never be what you want.


+1, I had the same experience with my Delta contractors saw. As long as you aligned it and then didn't change the blade angle it would work fine. If you ever moved the blade to cut an bevel then you would be back out of alignment. Usually it wasn't much individually but it would add a cumulative movement every time you tilted the blade. Over time my saw would continue to get worse until I'd be forced to realign it. I finally gave up and bought a Powermatic used from CL.

Interesting information. I can see the motor's weight being a problem and that's probably why I had such a problem getting the PALS studs threaded in. The tie bars had twisted over time through tilting of the blade. I never saw that before you guys mentioned it here. And that's probably why bevel cuts so often burned the wood. The whole thing was under stress.

Several times I've seriously considered replacing the Delta contractor saw but I want to move to warmer climes and when the house goes up for sale (soon, I hope), I'll let any potential buyers know everything (well, almost) in the workshop is for sale. So for now I have to make do with what I have because I know if I replaced any of the big tools, someone would miraculously appear at the door with an offer on the house and want me to include those shiny new tools. :rolleyes:

[glenn bradley]

Blade alignment shift during tilt is a trunnion to table issue. You will see this adjustment discussed in tablesaw alignment threads. Once in place, the PALs are just like bolts; I do not see how the PALs can cause this unless you are running into them when tilting(?).

[Julie Moriarty]

Everything is done now and I just ripped 12' of 5/4 African mahogany. MUCH better! This should hold me for a while. :)

Before:
http://i867.photobucket.com/albums/ab233/jules42651/Woodworking/Tools/TSUpgrade_B4_zps674532f8.jpg (http://s867.photobucket.com/user/jules42651/media/Woodworking/Tools/TSUpgrade_B4_zps674532f8.jpg.html)

After:
http://i867.photobucket.com/albums/ab233/jules42651/Woodworking/Tools/TSUpgrade_Aftr_zps60bbe1c3.jpg

Glenn - no, the PALS had nothing to do with the problems I was having, except to the degree I couldn't screw in the studs once the original bolts were removed. That was in part due to the tie bars being racked and the trunnion brackets having moved over time. The PALS should keep the rear trunnion bracket from moving side-to-side but won't have any effect on preventing the assembly from racking again.

[Julie Moriarty]

UPDATE:
It's been a little over 6 weeks now that the new upgrades have been installed. It's no cabinet saw but it's SOOOOO much better than it was. No more ends of cut diving back into the blade. Those little kerf splitters really work! The longer fence makes cutting longer boards easier. The Board Mates on the fence are okay - they often get in the way of feeding the wood - but for long rips they are a plus. The new pulleys and Link Belt cut the vibration noticeably. I also bought a couple of Grrr Rippers. Another nicer safety measure that makes using the table saw less stressful. They work pretty well. All in all it was a decent upgrade on an old saw. It's not as scary as it was before. :)

[Bill ThompsonNM]

Now Julie, think how much improved you think the saw is after all that work. Multiply that by at least 10 and that's how much better you will feel when you power up that cabinet saw you'll buy one of these days.
I started with a delta contractor's saw but 15 years later picked up a used unisaw--and I'm sorry I waited so long!