Large quantity batch question...

[Michael Dunn]

Hey guys!

I'm bidding on a job that may have me building 200 units of a rather simple 'display case'. Without getting into all of the details there will be 4 compartments which are made from 5 identical side pieces.

The dimensions are 22"x22"x3/4" made from two sided black melamine. The thing is that one of the corners is cut off. Say put a mark 10" for the top and 10" from the front and connect the dots and cut at the resultant 45 deg angle. Now do that 1000 times. Literally.

I have the festool track saw and can easily cut 3 pieces at a time. I'd have a helper for this job. If I land it, it'd be a big enough pay date to justify another TS-75 AND MFT-3 if needed. (I loves me some Kool-Aid!!!)

Anyway... What are some other clever ways using say a table saw or a band saw in such a way that I could batch these out in just a few hours preferably with two guys. Aside from using a CNC router that I do not YET own. What other ideas are out there?

Thanx!

[Jamie Buxton]

Sliding miter saw. Or radial arm saw.

Or something like a cutoff sled for a table saw. It'd be custom, and would hold your blank in exactly the correct position for the corner cut.

[Joe Jensen]

For something that repetitive you need a jig. I don't have it visualized, is the cut after the case is assembled or when it's in parts?

[mreza Salav]

quick thought: think a paper cutter guillotine type set up. Put two pieces of scrap on a table to form a 90 degree angle into which the pieces you want to cut get secured and the triangle to be cut sticks out from the corner on top of which your track is; you can have your track saw set up over that line and cut it. So you just put the piece in the jig, run the track to cut, and take the piece out to place the next one.

[Michael Dunn]

For something that repetitive you need a jig. I don't have it visualized, is the cut after the case is assembled or when it's in parts?

The cuts will be made prior to assembly.

[Michael Dunn]

Sliding miter saw. Or radial arm saw. Or something like a cutoff sled for a table saw. It'd be custom, and would hold your blank in exactly the correct position for the corner cut.

You know, I just bought the Kapex early last month and I forgot that I had it... I was thinking that the 22"x22" piece wouldn't fit, but if I flip the piece around... Duh!!! The Kapex could probably cut like 6-7 at a time, right? With a stop setup this could be easily repeatable.

Keep 'em coming guys! That's one idea I'll surely use if I land this job. A TS sled sounds plausible too. With a stop of course. I wonder if my current sled could hold that size of a work piece?

[Stephen Cherry]

Aside from using a CNC router that I do not YET own. What other ideas are out there?

Thanx!


CR Onsrud inverted pin router. These come up used for pennys on the dollar because people with lots of money are switching to cnc, but one could cut these out, all exactly the same, in quick order.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TI18ZWaG1_c

[Michael Dunn]

CR Onsrud inverted pin router. These come up used for pennys on the dollar because people with lots of money are switching to cnc, but one could cut these out, all exactly the same, in quick order. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TI18ZWaG1_c

I wanted to just say, "Wow!!!", but the message was too short.

[Ethan Melad]

find a local shop that can CNC them. they could cut 8 per sheet, multiple sheets at a time. i imagine the cost to outsource will be worth the huge time savings.

[Mark Bolton]

By the time you get done dealing with chipping from whatever blade used,resharpening on that many pieces of double-sided melamine, building the jigs, buying a new machine, you will be way ahead with money in the bank farming it out +1 farm it out.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

That would be an easy feat with a slider saw and scoring.

[Jeff Duncan]

There are many ways to skin a cat and what works for one may not work for you. I have several thoughts on making these....maybe one will work for you.

1st) easiest way will be to sub out all the part cutting to a local cnc shop. Advantages....every part will be exactly the same and the assemblies will fit together like a glove. You won't have to deal with unloading, storing, and handling all those 4x8 sheets of melamine! And you'll spend less time on this job opening up opportunity to work on other things.

2nd) do the job in house. Ok so your going to do these in house. You'll need the space to store all these sheets of melamine and help to unload the truck. You'll be handling them numerous times to get them down to the sizes you'll need. But your OK with this so how best to attack the sizing of the sheets? In my opinion your best bet is a sliding table saw. When building large runs of something you want the very last piece to be exactly the same as the very first piece. As great as the tracksaws are, and I'm sure the Kapex is too, without being very, very, careful with every setup you'll likely have some variations along the way. With a slider you set it up and every piece is the exact same. With a good slider and good melamine blade, (like the Forrestt Hi-AT), you should be able to do the whole shot without any sharpening and very little if any chipout. This in my mind would be the second best option and I don't think I'd look much farther....but since we're here......

There are other ways to go about it of course, a pin router was even mentioned which could work well for a job like this. However I look at it this way, what's going to give me my best return over the long run? Pin routers are almost obsolete these days for a reason. While they can be handy, I'd bet it will sit in the corner and get dusted off for the rarest of jobs in many shops. Of course that's assuming you find the rare really inexpensive one that hasn't been rode hard and put away wet! A sliding table saw on the other hand will be used daily. A Kapex with appropriate jigging may work as well. I don't own one so can't say, but the thing I'd be concerned about.....will it be able to make hundreds of cuts in stacked melamine a day without burning up? A radial arm saw....unless you have a really high end one I wouldn't go there. I've never found the less expensive ones to be nearly precise enough for what I do. Bandsaw won't cut clean enough to do melamine cuts. As I mentioned already, a track saw could do it but you'll want to make alignment jigs to try to ensure that each cut is the exact same. I'd also worry about overworking it doing this much material. I have the smaller Festool saw and as great as it is, it's not a beast of a saw by any stretch. I've overworked mine before doing small batches of work in 1-1/2 mdf. Remember that the key in large batches is maintaining accuracy, if your off a 32nd here and there your going to create problems for yourself!

So to sum up my thoughts.....best bet, sub to a CNC shop and do the least amount of work and make a little money on it. Second best, use this job to make the investment in a good slider which will not only get the job done accurately, but will be used to make you money for years down the road. Lastly, everything else....

Now.....should be discuss how your going to edge band all those parts.....:eek:

good luck,
JeffD

[Peter Quinn]

I hate melamine, every thing about working with it sucks, but I like making a living, so I'd look into farming out the parts. Let some body else deal with the nasty dust and heavy sheets. If you just had to do it in house I'd make a flush cut fench that hangs off the rip fench on a TS, a jig to reference the keeper off of that, that way you are away from the blade, its pretty quick and accurate, easy to reload, you can identify defects quickly, you have a full backer if the jig goes under the work which minimizes chip out, you could probably do 2 per pass if you build the jig for it. I have a kapex at work....I wouldn't trust that thing to make the same angle twice in a row let alone hundred of times in stacked multiples. Not IMO the right weapon, and not festools finest hour either, but that's a different story....

[Michael Dunn]

There are many ways to skin a cat and what works for one may not work for you. I have several thoughts on making these....maybe one will work for you.

1st) easiest way will be to sub out all the part cutting to a local cnc shop. Advantages....every part will be exactly the same and the assemblies will fit together like a glove. You won't have to deal with unloading, storing, and handling all those 4x8 sheets of melamine! And you'll spend less time on this job opening up opportunity to work on other things.

2nd) do the job in house. Ok so your going to do these in house. You'll need the space to store all these sheets of melamine and help to unload the truck. You'll be handling them numerous times to get them down to the sizes you'll need. But your OK with this so how best to attack the sizing of the sheets? In my opinion your best bet is a sliding table saw. When building large runs of something you want the very last piece to be exactly the same as the very first piece. As great as the tracksaws are, and I'm sure the Kapex is too, without being very, very, careful with every setup you'll likely have some variations along the way. With a slider you set it up and every piece is the exact same. With a good slider and good melamine blade, (like the Forrestt Hi-AT), you should be able to do the whole shot without any sharpening and very little if any chipout. This in my mind would be the second best option and I don't think I'd look much farther....but since we're here......

There are other ways to go about it of course, a pin router was even mentioned which could work well for a job like this. However I look at it this way, what's going to give me my best return over the long run? Pin routers are almost obsolete these days for a reason. While they can be handy, I'd bet it will sit in the corner and get dusted off for the rarest of jobs in many shops. Of course that's assuming you find the rare really inexpensive one that hasn't been rode hard and put away wet! A sliding table saw on the other hand will be used daily. A Kapex with appropriate jigging may work as well. I don't own one so can't say, but the thing I'd be concerned about.....will it be able to make hundreds of cuts in stacked melamine a day without burning up? A radial arm saw....unless you have a really high end one I wouldn't go there. I've never found the less expensive ones to be nearly precise enough for what I do. Bandsaw won't cut clean enough to do melamine cuts. As I mentioned already, a track saw could do it but you'll want to make alignment jigs to try to ensure that each cut is the exact same. I'd also worry about overworking it doing this much material. I have the smaller Festool saw and as great as it is, it's not a beast of a saw by any stretch. I've overworked mine before doing small batches of work in 1-1/2 mdf. Remember that the key in large batches is maintaining accuracy, if your off a 32nd here and there your going to create problems for yourself!

So to sum up my thoughts.....best bet, sub to a CNC shop and do the least amount of work and make a little money on it. Second best, use this job to make the investment in a good slider which will not only get the job done accurately, but will be used to make you money for years down the road. Lastly, everything else....

Now.....should be discuss how your going to edge band all those parts.....:eek:

good luck,
JeffD

Great thoughts as usual Jeff!!! Thanx!!!

As for the edge banding. I plan to cover the exposed edges with aluminum trim angle. Much faster and easier that edge banding I'd say. That and the angled cut was already planned to be covered with aluminum U channel as the other working unit already have.

As for the 1/32" accuracy. I typically strive for perfection. However, the angled cuts aren't fitting together. See the drawing. I'll certainly look into subbing the parts out to a CNC shop. Actually, my Bro-in-laws girlfriend's father owns a massive CNC machine shop. I'll see what he may charge.

I personally like the sliding table option the best. First, because then I would have a sliding table saw. Second, because I would actually really like to cut and build all of these. Call me crazy. I LOVE batching parts out. I may not feel the same after cutting 250 of 1000 of the same piece though. LOL!!!

Oh, one more thing. I do actually have enough space to store 300 sheets if I need to. I also have a roofing company two doors down who has been more than willing to unload my lumber loads and place them in my shop on delivery dates. Once in the shop I have a pallet jack that has proved to be worth its weight in heroin.

[Michael W. Clark]

Bro-in-laws girlfriend's

Does your sister know about this? :eek:

[Mark Bolton]

The accuracy issue is more than just for the angled cut. Of course you know if youre off here and there, by only a bit, the boxes twist and rack, some partitions may be tight, loose, or the corners of the miters dont match perfectly then when you apply your aluminum.. etc..

When the parts are all perfectly square and identical it just makes things that much easier, assembly is a breeze, and the end result is crisp.

Wanting to make the parts yourself is wonderful, but I'd take the money in the bank all day long over handling all that satan sheet and having to buy a machine that wont pay off for many more jobs :-). Put the cash in your kids college fund.

How would a CNC machine shop (metal I am assuing) process melamine parts efficiently? Maybe they run both? Looking at your drawing it looks more an more like a farm job. All those dado's, rabbets, whats happening on the melamine edges left/right/back? Looks like a job for dowel shop and clamp.

The other bonus to at least getting numbers on having these parts run for you is you'll know where your pricing should be.

Good luck! Updates please...

[glenn bradley]

+1 on a task specific sled unless your current sled is big enough to carry a 22" square piece at 45*. If so I would just screw a couple of cleats to it and rock on.

[Rick Potter]

You can find good (DeWalt or Delta/Rockwell) 16", long arm, 3 phase RAS's ; pretty regularly on CL. It seems that it would do the job, in multiples, with a simple jig.

Rick Potter

[Michael Dunn]

The accuracy issue is more than just for the angled cut. Of course you know if youre off here and there, by only a bit, the boxes twist and rack, some partitions may be tight, loose, or the corners of the miters dont match perfectly then when you apply your aluminum.. etc.. When the parts are all perfectly square and identical it just makes things that much easier, assembly is a breeze, and the end result is crisp. Wanting to make the parts yourself is wonderful, but I'd take the money in the bank all day long over handling all that satan sheet and having to buy a machine that wont pay off for many more jobs :-). Put the cash in your kids college fund. How would a CNC machine shop (metal I am assuing) process melamine parts efficiently? Maybe they run both? Looking at your drawing it looks more an more like a farm job. All those dado's, rabbets, whats happening on the melamine edges left/right/back? Looks like a job for dowel shop and clamp. The other bonus to at least getting numbers on having these parts run for you is you'll know where your pricing should be. Good luck! Updates please...

I instinctively drew the dadoes and rabbets. The current display units are all butt joints. The 200 would likely be bit joints as well. Depending on his thoughts on my offer. I actually contacted a laminate cabinet company around the block (where Wynn accidentally shipped my filters) their price was well over $400/unit.

As for the CNC shop, I don't know for certain if they machine other than metal, but it can't hurt to ask.

[Michael Dunn]

Does your sister know about this? :eek:

LOL, There's another way to have a brother in law... My wife's brothers girlfriend, that is.

[Stephen Cherry]

There are other ways to go about it of course, a pin router was even mentioned which could work well for a job like this. However I look at it this way, what's going to give me my best return over the long run? Pin routers are almost obsolete these days for a reason. While they can be handy, I'd bet it will sit in the corner and get dusted off for the rarest of jobs in many shops. Of course that's assuming you find the rare really inexpensive one that hasn't been rode hard and put away wet!
JeffD

Jeff- yes, the inverted pin router (I'm not talking about the old non-inverted machines) is obsolete in a high volume setting, because the a cnc will do a faster better job, and the repeatability is built into the machine.

That said, the sliding table saw is also obsolete in that setting, as is a radial arm saw.

The big BUT, is that a pin router uses the same tool as the cnc- in this case either a spiral or double compression, and once the patterns are made the precision is built into the pattern. Once you have used one of these machines a little, the possibilites begin to open up. For example, I have a little cr onsrud inverted machine with the porter cable router. It's the lightweight of their line. When I bought it, I was very happy to show it to my furniture conservator friend. Of course, he rolled his eyes, and asked what is the point. It was a short time later that he showed up with a splat, and made a copy of it in a few minutes. With the inverted pin router, a well made part is a pattern for making more and the repeatability is in the pattern. In this particular case, you could build these things in a hurry with just a few patterns- one for the partition, one for the top and front, including the dados (the pin router will dado and drill shelf pin holes also, for example in an upper cabinet where you may want just a few holes), and maybe a couple more for the bottom and back. Another plus is that these machines come up used for less than a good cnc spindle motor might cost.

My small machine does almost anything a normal router table will do as well, but, by using a normal router motor, it really is not suitable for high volume work. (the motor can get pretty hot.)

All just my opinions though. In summary- the cr onsrud inverted pin router is the best machine that there is for making everything :) (just joking)

[John Sanford]

Re: The Sliding Table Saw option:

There are two sliding table saws that have popped up locally for sale here. A very lightly used Hammer K3 Winner for $3,900, and a monster SCM (http://www.ksl.com/index.php?nid=218&ad=25805412&cat=&lpid=&search=SCM%20table%20saw&ad_cid=1) for $3,800. The SCM, if it's in good shape, is likely an absolute killer deal if you have the room for it.

[Michael W. Clark]

LOL, There's another way to have a brother in law... My wife's brothers girlfriend, that is.

Ah yes! I missed that. You are correct. I knew there was another way, but was drawing a blank...

[Michael Dunn]

Re: The Sliding Table Saw option: There are two sliding table saws that have popped up locally for sale here. A very lightly used Hammer K3 Winner for $3,900, and a monster SCM (http://www.ksl.com/index.php?nid=218&ad=25805412&cat=&lpid=&search=SCM%20table%20saw&ad_cid=1) for $3,800. The SCM, if it's in good shape, is likely an absolute killer deal if you have the room for it.

That looks sweet! What's the footprint?

[Aaron Berk]

Sliding miter saw. Or radial arm saw.

Or something like a cutoff sled for a table saw. It'd be custom, and would hold your blank in exactly the correct position for the corner cut.


DING DING DING!!! this is my winner, and gets my vote.
I do allot of production work on small case junk and my RAS is the biggest time saver ever!

A panel of your size would be cake work on a RAS!

[Jeff Duncan]

Jeff- yes, the inverted pin router (I'm not talking about the old non-inverted machines) is obsolete in a high volume setting, because the a cnc will do a faster better job, and the repeatability is built into the machine.

That said, the sliding table saw is also obsolete in that setting, as is a radial arm saw.



You surprised me with that one Stephen. Just for clarity I'm not talking about high volume shops punching out thousands of parts a day where the pin router could be a handy machine. I'm talking about your average cabinet shop like mine and what I presume Michael's is, where a slider is still the center piece and a pin router is, well, rare. A slider is something a cabinet shop will use on just about every job that goes through the door. A pin router while handy for certain operations is not a daily user in your average small shop. Now if your a specialty shop that does more furniture or other types of work, than maybe you could put a pin router ahead of a slider? For most shops though the pin router would be more of a "nice-to-have" than a necessity:rolleyes:

Now in this particular circumstance lets look at how the parts would be processed. With a slider, you cut your parts to size and stack them for assembly. With a pin router, you first figure out a way to break down 4x8 sheets into smaller sized pieces you can handle on the router. Than you take the parts, clamp them to a jig and route them. Your handling them more and spending more time on milling them which means your flushing much of the profit down the toilet:( Now he finishes this job up and the next job is a kitchen. Hmmm, not much use for a pin router there, but could really use a slider to cut up the parts:o

Last thing I'll mention is that I'm not trying to bash pin routers at all. I think they can be very handy machines in a shop. I used to have one on my own wish list. I did a little homework though and found that you have to be very careful when looking at inexpensive used routers. These are precision machines that run at much higher speeds than most woodworking equipment, and it can be costly to change out bearings or fix bent spindles which are known issues with older factory machines.....where many of the inexpensive one are coming from! That's not to say you can't find a good one, just that you have to be a bit careful. I suggest anyone thinking about buying one do some reading on them at OWWM where guys who actually know what they're talking about, (unlike me), have discussed them:)

good luck,
JeffD

[Peter Quinn]

Here's a link. http://www.woodmagazine.com/woodworking-plans/tablesaw/tablesaw-pattern-jig/.


Best method I've seen using what most of us already have, a table saw. Make one good pattern, make a very simple fixture that attaches to your fence. Bob's your uncle, or your BIL, or your BIL's girlfriend. You don't need a new machine or any exotic tooling. Well, add in a $40 vacuum clamp to your pattern, which rides above the work, and your flying. I made a bizillion hexagons once, flooring tiles in somewhat figured walnut, a job I'd love to forget I ever did, but this type of fixture makes it happen. Best thing is your hands never get close to the cutter. Biggest problem with long batch jobs is you start daydreaming and digits can get lost if its not set up to be fool proof. THis may actually be quicker than a slider.

[Stephen Cherry]

You surprised me with that one Stephen. Just for clarity I'm not talking about high volume shops punching out thousands of parts a day where the pin router could be a handy machine. I'm talking about your average cabinet shop like mine and what I presume Michael's is, where a slider is still the center piece and a pin router is, well, rare. A slider is something a cabinet shop will use on just about every job that goes through the door. A pin router while handy for certain operations is not a daily user in your average small shop. Now if your a specialty shop that does more furniture or other types of work, than maybe you could put a pin router ahead of a slider? For most shops though the pin router would be more of a "nice-to-have" than a necessity:rolleyes:

Now in this particular circumstance lets look at how the parts would be processed. With a slider, you cut your parts to size and stack them for assembly. With a pin router, you first figure out a way to break down 4x8 sheets into smaller sized pieces you can handle on the router. Than you take the parts, clamp them to a jig and route them. Your handling them more and spending more time on milling them which means your flushing much of the profit down the toilet:( Now he finishes this job up and the next job is a kitchen. Hmmm, not much use for a pin router there, but could really use a slider to cut up the parts:o

Last thing I'll mention is that I'm not trying to bash pin routers at all. I think they can be very handy machines in a shop. I used to have one on my own wish list. I did a little homework though and found that you have to be very careful when looking at inexpensive used routers. These are precision machines that run at much higher speeds than most woodworking equipment, and it can be costly to change out bearings or fix bent spindles which are known issues with older factory machines.....where many of the inexpensive one are coming from! That's not to say you can't find a good one, just that you have to be a bit careful. I suggest anyone thinking about buying one do some reading on them at OWWM where guys who actually know what they're talking about, (unlike me), have discussed them:)

good luck,
JeffD

Jeff- I agree. A slider with scoring will cut better and faster then a pin router. But it needs an operator with some desire to cut the part out right, while not cutting off a finger, which, I guess is why they are obsolete in high production shops.


What I like about a pin router is that the precision is built into the pattern, and you can make up some pretty useful patterns with multiple operations using one bit. For example, you could cut a cabinet side, drill shelf pin holes, dado for a back, or cut a toe kick, all with one pattern and one bit. In this particular application, it would take a rough rip and crosscut with a track saw, but the rest could be done two at a time with a single jig. It's my opinion that lots of projects where people say- wow, a cnc machine would be the way to make that- these projects could in many cases be done with a pin router for a fraction of the cost. Maybe I just like pin routers though because they are even more out of style than a radial arm saw.

[Yonak Hawkins]

How about just a simple Skil saw sliding against a custom fence fixture on the adjacent edges ? It wouldn't have the advantage of being able to buy expensive equipment but . . .

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Look at the new FWW for the L fence article for a good write up on how to use your regular tablesaw to cut to a template too, if you want to mess around with templates. I wouldn't, too much time involved when a simple setup on my slider would do it, but to each their own.

[Mark Bolton]

I instinctively drew the dadoes and rabbets. The current display units are all butt joints. The 200 would likely be bit joints as well. Depending on his thoughts on my offer. I actually contacted a laminate cabinet company around the block (where Wynn accidentally shipped my filters) their price was well over $400/unit.

As for the CNC shop, I don't know for certain if they machine other than metal, but it can't hurt to ask.

Butt joints? How are you going to do that cost effectivly? Then assuming that means all sides and backs need to be banded? Aluminum on the bin openings and banded elsewhere?

[John Sanford]

That looks sweet! What's the footprint?

I'm not sure, more than I have available.... There've been a few threads here discussing the big European sliders. They physically take up more length than an American style cabinet saw (ASCS), but don't need as much infeed and outfeed space, relatively speaking, because the table and slider mechanism is carrying much of the load. They're not as wide as a typical 52" ASCS when not in use, but will be as wide or wider when the outrigger is being used. They are a LOT heavier than the typical 10" ASCS, i.e. PM66/Unisaw/SawStop/etc

[Peter Quinn]

I'm not sure, more than I have available.... There've been a few threads here discussing the big European sliders. They physically take up more length than an American style cabinet saw (ASCS), but don't need as much infeed and outfeed space, relatively speaking, because the table and slider mechanism is carrying much of the load. They're not as wide as a typical 52" ASCS when not in use, but will be as wide or wider when the outrigger is being used. They are a LOT heavier than the typical 10" ASCS, i.e. PM66/Unisaw/SawStop/etc


Uhh…they need every bit as much in and out feed space, because the big carriage that is carrying the weight is moving, and it needs a space to move into and out of. If you are up against a wall you may need the distance the stock or plywood requires minus the thickness of the operator, but thats marginal. On a variety saw the operator stands behind the work and pushes, on a slider you are to the left. But I'm only about 10" thick so thats not much savings, 1' on infeed. If its your only saw and you are ripping, its the same space requirement either way. When I think slider I don't thing compact. A vertical saw is a great way to save floor space if you have the wall space to dedicate.

Not sure a pin router was ever the best tool for straights. Patterns, yes, curves, fantastic, but for the OP's application I'm not seeing the point of plowing through all that melamine with a router. I guess I might consider wasting the corners with a BS first, not sure how that would be for chipping, with a circular saw its on operation.

[John Downey]

Find a CNC router shop. Seriously, if you want to make a profit on a job like this and strive for perfection at the same time, farming out the cutting to the right shop will maximize your profit. If you mostly want to have the fun of making stuff, turn down all melamine jobs flat :D

I've seen a friend of mine go through the realization of the utility of CNC with metal products. He got into machining due to collecting conventional machines at pennies on the dollar, started selling stuff he made and was very profitable due to low overhead. Orders then get bigger and bigger, lead times get longer and longer, and then he realizes that for runs of 500-1000 simple parts, farming out to a CNC shop actually makes more profit for him in a shorter time.

Farming work out to a robot isn't sexy, but if you are selling product it will make you money like you're working a desk job instead of a shop job.

[Keith Hankins]

Ok, I think i understand and not knowing the profit margin, I'd just stay with theTS55 add the mft3 (have it and use it a lot!) You could use the stop built in, and add a jig. Leave the angle at 90 for the rail to do a cross cut. Cut a piece of scrap with the 45 on it so you can just put the piece to length on the table up against it and the stop, and cut and go. 3 pieces at a time even with a total of a thou cut is not that much. Nothing wrong with the 75 but it is heavier, and I think fatigue in that repetative operation would require more rest (down-time) and eat away any savings with the additional cut depth. Not to mention the cost. I would not mind having one, but i've never met a task that the 55 would not do. But that's just me.

[Richard Coers]

I instinctively drew the dadoes and rabbets. The current display units are all butt joints. The 200 would likely be bit joints as well. Depending on his thoughts on my offer. I actually contacted a laminate cabinet company around the block (where Wynn accidentally shipped my filters) their price was well over $400/unit.

As for the CNC shop, I don't know for certain if they machine other than metal, but it can't hurt to ask.

I hope you didn't bid it much less than that $400. Have you worked with double sided melamine? Many of the folks answering your appeal for design help sure haven't. Radial arm saw? You've got to be kidding! Butt joints? How are you going to locate those center partitions accurately with butt joints? Have a CNC shop cut them out, edge band them and drill dowel holes. Now you can figure real cost and make some money. Not guess about labor and how you will do it.

[Mark Bolton]

I hope you didn't bid it much less than that $400. Have you worked with double sided melamine? Many of the folks answering your appeal for design help sure haven't. Radial arm saw? You've got to be kidding! Butt joints? How are you going to locate those center partitions accurately with butt joints? Have a CNC shop cut them out, edge band them and drill dowel holes. Now you can figure real cost and make some money. Not guess about labor and how you will do it.

More than likely have the CNC shop do everything other than assembly and what ever the aluminum is. I don't think Michael has an edge bander and for this amount of work,..well,..

[Mark Bolton]

Ok, I think i understand and not knowing the profit margin, I'd just stay with theTS55 add the mft3 (have it and use it a lot!) You could use the stop built in, and add a jig. Leave the angle at 90 for the rail to do a cross cut. Cut a piece of scrap with the 45 on it so you can just put the piece to length on the table up against it and the stop, and cut and go. 3 pieces at a time even with a total of a thou cut is not that much. Nothing wrong with the 75 but it is heavier, and I think fatigue in that repetative operation would require more rest (down-time) and eat away any savings with the additional cut depth. Not to mention the cost. I would not mind having one, but i've never met a task that the 55 would not do. But that's just me.

Your not serious? Your taking about making 200 production boxes with a skil saw?

[John TenEyck]

Here's a link. http://www.woodmagazine.com/woodworking-plans/tablesaw/tablesaw-pattern-jig/.


Best method I've seen using what most of us already have, a table saw. Make one good pattern, make a very simple fixture that attaches to your fence. Bob's your uncle, or your BIL, or your BIL's girlfriend. You don't need a new machine or any exotic tooling. Well, add in a $40 vacuum clamp to your pattern, which rides above the work, and your flying. I made a bizillion hexagons once, flooring tiles in somewhat figured walnut, a job I'd love to forget I ever did, but this type of fixture makes it happen. Best thing is your hands never get close to the cutter. Biggest problem with long batch jobs is you start daydreaming and digits can get lost if its not set up to be fool proof. THis may actually be quicker than a slider.


That's how I'd do it. I made a bunch of tapered A&C style porch columns that way, with beveled corners, and the fit together perfectly. Rough cut all the parts, vacuum clamp them to the template, and slide them against the auxiliary TS fence. Every one will be exactly alike and the offcut will fall safely to the side. It is almost impossible to put your hand in the blade if you make the fence correctly. The 5 cuts for the angled panels will take less than a minute. Then make a set of spacers to fit on the back panel and cut biscuit slots, dowel holes, Domino mortises, whatever you like. The spacers position your tool and tick marks on the spacers show you where to make the cuts. The same spacers show you where to make the matching cuts on the angled and end panels. I wouldn't want to make 200 of them, or whatever number it was you said, but I'll bet you would make more money this way, without buying anything new, than farming it out. The only thing you might have to buy is a really good HATB Melamine blade for your TS. That with a ZCI will virtually eliminate chipout on the bottom edge.

John

[Chris Fournier]

Any suggestions as to how to machine double sided melamine with standard hobby shop equipment or hand held power tools are not helpful. You will lose your shirt nad reputation. Go get some melamaine stock and try some of these ideas, your rejection rate will be huge, you will gobble up materials, have a poor product and an angry customer that you deliver behind schedule to. Hobby folks have a "do it all in my shop" approach which is perfectly fine for a hobby. Go for volume with these types of materials and techniques and you will lose your shirt at best. Come up with a good design, that assembles easily and repeatably, use the services of a CNC equiped shop to knock out the parts and deliver a good product on time and make some money.

[Mark Bolton]

"Virtually" eliminating chip out is not an option, or desireable, in most commercial/production products (which I'm assuming this is). I have no idea what michaels relationship is with the perspective customer. Perhaps they are willing to deal with a bit of defect to save costs, no clue. It'd be odd given black.

My concern would be if this is a project put out for open bid (faceless, submitted, or even worse some online deal) and you will be expected to supply a finished project at industry standards. That isn't going to happen in a shop with anything less than slider, production boring/doweling, edge bander, and so on.

The first few may be fairly slick but then as the tooling and jigs begin to quickly degrade, waste piles up in the corner, the shop begins to deal with the fact they will have to start shipping less than perfect product OR do the right thing, and lose your shirt making good on a bid that was way over your head to begin with.

If it's the case, 200 of this item to a company that may be willing (and have every right) to sue for the project and losses due to the shop bitting off more than they can chew is just foolhardy no matter how much fun it would be.

[Ethan Melad]

i think Mark is right on with this. although an 80k+ job sounds incredibly appealing (assuming you bid @ $400 ea), especially for a new business like yours (or mine), i think you're in for some trouble. either do some serious outsourcing or let a production shop with production equipment take the job. i completely understand the desire to do everything yourself, but overextending yourself and/or using inadequate equipment is not going to help the business...

[Phil Thien]

I see what everyone is saying about chipout. I'd think you could talk to the company requesting the bid and see where they stand on that issue. Perhaps they have had similar products made before? Perhaps they have seen someone else with similar display components, and are aware of what melamine chipout looks like?

I've seen melamine displays in stores with chipout. The stuff was, I imagine, produced in large contract shops. It isn't like commercial shops have magic unicorn horn dust they sprinkle on their melamine, they deal with the same issues as everyone else (tooling that dulls, workers that tire, etc.).

And there are things you can do about it. You can wrap the edges with aluminum, for example. Chipout of 1/4" (extreme) is no problem when it is wrapped with aluminum u-channel.

Talk to the buyer. Ask if they have had any of these made. Ask what they are expecting. Tell them you want to work with them to provide a product with which they will be happy. See what they say. If they are local to you, take some samples of melamine with chipout. Ask if the others bidding the work will guarantee perfect cuts. Talk to suppliers, ask if they have material with thick enough coatings that chipout is reduced.

My point is, you can find a reason to turn down every single bid request you get. The trick is really to find ways you CAN bid the work.

[Mark Bolton]

Good points Phil.

I guess just from a business stand point I would be very cautious of variables that are so subjective. "That chip out is more than your sample so I'm withholding $xxxx". Of course it is completely up to the relationship with the buyer.

I think accepting the concession of potential defect is a shakey way to come out of the gate and will come at a reduced per unit cost which doesn't make a lot of sense when the boxes will come from a shop with higher costs for every single operation in the process (no offense to michael but it's simply the fact).

Of course there are sub standard case goods out there but it seems in most of the metropolitan areas commercial work has moved to CNC and even cutting big jobs on a slider with scoring is out dated technology. Can be done for sure, but...

[Richard Coers]

I see what everyone is saying about chipout. I'd think you could talk to the company requesting the bid and see where they stand on that issue. Perhaps they have had similar products made before? Perhaps they have seen someone else with similar display components, and are aware of what melamine chipout looks like?

I've seen melamine displays in stores with chipout. The stuff was, I imagine, produced in large contract shops. It isn't like commercial shops have magic unicorn horn dust they sprinkle on their melamine, they deal with the same issues as everyone else (tooling that dulls, workers that tire, etc.).

And there are things you can do about it. You can wrap the edges with aluminum, for example. Chipout of 1/4" (extreme) is no problem when it is wrapped with aluminum u-channel.

Talk to the buyer. Ask if they have had any of these made. Ask what they are expecting. Tell them you want to work with them to provide a product with which they will be happy. See what they say. If they are local to you, take some samples of melamine with chipout. Ask if the others bidding the work will guarantee perfect cuts. Talk to suppliers, ask if they have material with thick enough coatings that chipout is reduced.

My point is, you can find a reason to turn down every single bid request you get. The trick is really to find ways you CAN bid the work.

You're suggesting that you ask your customers if some defects will be acceptable? It's like asking, "Just how crappy of a piece of casework would you accept?" Asking any customer would suggest you routinely put out flawed work and shows no professionalism at all. It would be a rare purchasing agent, of any commercial job, that would understand what chip out is. They are not woodworkers. Then you would have to educate them, ask them how many per foot would be acceptable, and how deep? That would be one crazy conversation. The posting here suggesting jig saws, radial arm saws, and band saws, is about a mile from what a commercial shop would get with a scoring panel saw or CNC. Not really a comparison.

[Phil Thien]

You're suggesting that you ask your customers if some defects will be acceptable? It's like asking, "Just how crappy of a piece of casework would you accept?" Asking any customer would suggest you routinely put out flawed work and shows no professionalism at all. It would be a rare purchasing agent, of any commercial job, that would understand what chip out is. They are not woodworkers. Then you would have to educate them, ask them how many per foot would be acceptable, and how deep? That would be one crazy conversation. The posting here suggesting jig saws, radial arm saws, and band saws, is about a mile from what a commercial shop would get with a scoring panel saw or CNC. Not really a comparison.

If you approach it as you suggest, then yeah, it will be awkward.

There is nothing wrong with calling the customer and asking, "hey, is this a re-order or something entirely new?" If re-order, I'd ask if they have any of the previous pieces available for inspection. If entirely new, I'd ask if they had ever sourced anything like this. Perhaps they have other pieces they've used, made form melamine, which the OP could check-out. Perhaps they are trying to knock-off something a competitor or another outfit had produced, that he could track down.

If it is entirely a new concept, maybe they had a prototype constructed, and they just need 400 more. So check-out the prototype and figure out if you can do at least as nice a job.

The point is, you don't know, Michael doesn't know, I don't know, only the purchaser knows (at this point). Might as well get on the phone and powwow with them and find out what they expect.

That would be a much better idea than to just assume the OP cannot satisfy the customer in this (or any) case. We don't know yet what the customer expects, and yet the pile-on here is "you can't do it, hire it out."

[Chris Fournier]

I don't think that the phrase 'pile on" is very fair, I do think that the phrase "informed concensus" might be more accurate.

I have ended up doing a reasonable amount of this larger budget/multiples type work for commercial clients and there is no way that the phrase "acceptable chip out" would ever be uttered in a procurement conversation that I have attended. It would certainly help create a short list of prospective suppliers in a hurry, a list that the "utterer" would not be on!

Let's leave the topic of acceptable levels of poor craftsmanship behind and move on to the logistics of this proposed job. I am in no way saying that the OP cannot come up with a solution to procure/produce the required components for 400 units and I am also pretty certain that he could figure out a way to carefully store these components with out damaging them before they are even assembled but neither will be a mean feat. Once you have 400 of these units assembled, will you have the room, will they have to be packaged for shipping, do you have the ability to properly warehouse and deliver these goods? The time required to "handle" these goods through the build process will likely far exceed the time required to actually make them. If you don't have a very rational approach to job estimation you could well find yourself in the wrong colour of ink part way through the job.

We all enjoy the outcome of the David and Goliath story, it is a morale booster but David could always have run off if the stone had not found a forehead. Anyone who looks for tenders on this kind of job will most likely have a contract to sign and folks that will be there to enforce it. I understand the relationship between risk and return but I also understand the consequences of higher stakes.

Why not bid on this job? I certainly would. But why snub the logical suggestion that you employ the services of those that excel at acquiring and producing the required components?

Honestly you really have to have used this type of material for about 30 seconds to understand that it requires some expertise if you want good results that will be paid for.

[Richard Coers]

I can't agree with you on this Phil. Any commercial job I have done, has the job bid all over the state. They want a quality product without dancing with all the contractors. Often, the general contractor is accepting the bids, the owner only sees the bottom line on the bill. Commercial work is very exacting in my experience. Tight deadlines, quality expectations, tight contracts, and worst of all, long waited payouts with no deposits. If we keep hashing this over, the quantity will be up to 800 units. You've already doubled the OP quantity of 200 units. Funny how these posts go! I loose confidence with guys posting questions like this very quickly. They are bidding jobs, but asking a community how to do it. Commercial work is not an easy way to cut your teeth on production work. Piling on? If you reread the original post, he's asking how 2 guys can cut out 1,800 parts (9 parts on 200 units) in a few hours with a table saw or band saw. They will spend a few hours just moving and stacking material. Many of us don't want to see him punished with an underbid and a nightmare job. Probably because some of us have more years of experience than the OP is years old. He doesn't look like he's 41 (my years of experience) in his picture.

[Mark Bolton]

If you reread the original post, he's asking how 2 guys can cut out 1,800 parts (9 parts on 200 units) in a few hours with a table saw or band saw.

Not to mention applying aluminum angle/channel to all the openings with all the associated notching, mitering, de-buring, drill & countersink, screwing..

Were talking about cleanly framing an opening with 7 pieces of aluminum and case construction. Perhaps the few hours was material breakdown. But still.

[Chris Fournier]

Not to mention applying aluminum angle/channel to all the openings with all the associated notching, mitering, de-buring, drill & countersink, screwing..

Were talking about cleanly framing an opening with 7 pieces of aluminum and case construction. Perhaps the few hours was material breakdown. But still.


You're "black hatting" in corporate lingo! More "spit balling" please.

[Michael Dunn]

I can't agree with you on this Phil. Any commercial job I have done, has the job bid all over the state. They want a quality product without dancing with all the contractors. Often, the general contractor is accepting the bids, the owner only sees the bottom line on the bill. Commercial work is very exacting in my experience. Tight deadlines, quality expectations, tight contracts, and worst of all, long waited payouts with no deposits. If we keep hashing this over, the quantity will be up to 800 units. You've already doubled the OP quantity of 200 units. Funny how these posts go! I loose confidence with guys posting questions like this very quickly. They are bidding jobs, but asking a community how to do it. Commercial work is not an easy way to cut your teeth on production work. Piling on? If you reread the original post, he's asking how 2 guys can cut out 1,800 parts (9 parts on 200 units) in a few hours with a table saw or band saw. They will spend a few hours just moving and stacking material. Many of us don't want to see him punished with an underbid and a nightmare job. Probably because some of us have more years of experience than the OP is years old. He doesn't look like he's 41 (my years of experience) in his picture.

For the record, I'm 32 years old. Not that it really matters though. When I said 'batch out these parts in a few hours' I meant just batching out the angled cut. Not all 1800 pieces. Or 3600 depending on the grape vine. Lol!

[Michael Dunn]

I loose confidence with guys posting questions like this very quickly. They are bidding jobs, but asking a community how to do it.

I see what you mean, however, asking for others' perspective doesn't necessarily imply that someone is incapable or inexperienced to the point that they cannot do the job. I typically always ask for advice. It doesn't mean that I don't know what I'm doing. I always know what I'm doing. Sometimes I like to know what other people are doing to have a fresh perspective or maybe a better idea than I thought of.

Without counsel plans fail, but with many advisors plans succeed.

If I'm not stretching myself and/or my abilities there is no growth, not to mention I'm bored as heck.

[John TenEyck]

Well said Micheal. Good luck whatever direction you take on this project, including a pass if that's what you decide.

John

[Keith Hankins]

Your not serious? Your taking about making 200 production boxes with a skil saw?

First, It's not a skill saw, and yes, if you get into a groove and set your work up you can with the mft3. With the DC, and the quick turn around you can rock-n-roll. It really depends on thinking your operation through staging the parts and getting it done.

Many years ago, I had a job making wooden screen frames for a print shop. I did it on my shopsmith. Thats right a shopsmith. I even made my own dowels. I paid for a lot of the shop tools I have now from doing that job. It made me hate production work though. But anyway it can be done. If you have tons of money sure buy a cnc machine. But I'm thinkin it's a profit thing. Could be wrong. Would not be the first time.

[Michael Dunn]

Your not serious? Your taking about making 200 production boxes with a skil saw?

I think you quoted the wrong guy.

[Michael Dunn]

I hope you didn't bid it much less than that $400. Have you worked with double sided melamine? Many of the folks answering your appeal for design help sure haven't. Radial arm saw? You've got to be kidding! Butt joints? How are you going to locate those center partitions accurately with butt joints? Have a CNC shop cut them out, edge band them and drill dowel holes. Now you can figure real cost and make some money. Not guess about labor and how you will do it.

All CNC shop stuff aside... If I were to do it all myself what would say is faster.

1. Cutting 800 rabbets on the top and bottoms of the 200 units and 1200 dadoes in the top, bottom, back, and face pieces?

Or...

2. Setting up spacers to align the dividers to their proper location.

Assembly wire would be quicker with the rabbets and dadoes, but 1200 dadoes and 800 rabbets has to be quite time consuming.

Now for the CNC talk... I seriously want a couple if not several CNC routers in the shop. Soon! I love doing one off custom work, but I need a product or a service that can make quick, consistent cash.

How many CNC machines do you think would be needed to tackle a project of this magnitude? 2? 4?

[John Downey]

I see what you mean, however, asking for others' perspective doesn't necessarily imply that someone is incapable or inexperienced to the point that they cannot do the job. I typically always ask for advice. It doesn't mean that I don't know what I'm doing. I always know what I'm doing. Sometimes I like to know what other people are doing to have a fresh perspective or maybe a better idea than I thought of.

Without counsel plans fail, but with many advisors plans succeed.

If I'm not stretching myself and/or my abilities there is no growth, not to mention I'm bored as heck.

Its good that you're not taking all this back and forth as discouraging. Asking around on internet forums is a great substitute for learning from mistakes - it's saved me a lot of trouble over the years to pick the brains of guys who've already worked through that trouble and are generous with their time and knowledge.

I would go with the dados, btw, even though I don't do jobs like this :D:D:D
Get them cut on a bot and assembly will be a long dull few days but not much trouble. Biggest worry at that point will be where to put all those darn boxes! :D

[Michael Dunn]

Its good that you're not taking all this back and forth as discouraging. Asking around on internet forums is a great substitute for learning from mistakes - it's saved me a lot of trouble over the years to pick the brains of guys who've already worked through that trouble and are generous with their time and knowledge. I would go with the dados, btw, even though I don't do jobs like this :D:D:D Get them cut on a bot and assembly will be a long dull few days but not much trouble. Biggest worry at that point will be where to put all those darn boxes! :D

I could put all the boxes next door as the unit is not yet rented and doesn't appear to have anyone looking at it. As for delivery, the client would pick them up as he has several large trucks.

[Mark Bolton]

Setting up spacers? Set up spacers and then what? Dados? Rabbets? What do you do with the melamine edge? Band it then rabbet? What do the spacers do?

Gosh, this gets worse and worse.

[Ethan Melad]

i'm not trying to be discouraging here either, michael, but basically i think you need to figure out a method you can handle in your shop, with the machinery you have available, estimate your shop time as accurately as you can without trying to come up with a low bid, and submit that bid. simply remember that it is probably going to be a huge, pain in the ass job that will take you 2 or 3 or 4 times as long as a shop with production machinery and commercial production experience.

As fun as it is to do all your own work, there are reasons why large shops (or smallish shops with different machinery than you) are better at this type of job. All the things you've asked about - cutting the 45, attachment method, alignment method - are valid and worth discussing; but for a job this big a shop needs to be efficient and have a time-tested method not be attempting new operations on the fly.

I think you should bid the job accurately (your bid will be waaay higher than others) and then take the opportunity to buy a couple sheets of melamine and build ONE unit for your own shop. That way you'll see what methods work best for your shop, and youll probably see why the same methods don't work at all for a large production run.

My business is pretty new as well, and I think pacing oneself is important. I myself am about to do a couple high end bathrooms and even though I've done a fair amount of cabinetry, a year later I'm still figuring out what works best in my shop, with my machinery, on my time frame.

[Jeff Duncan]

Michael, what kind of CNC machines are you looking at? Any CNC machine that is going to be large enough to make you money is going to be huge! I can't imagine a small to medium sized shop having multiples??? If your wanting to knock out cabinets and such your looking at a machine that can handle at least 4 x 8 sheets plus the necessary dust extraction and vacuum pump all of which are going to consume a lot of power. The only shops I know of that have multiple CNC's around me measure in the many thousands of square feet and have all the other goodies to back them up. If your thinking about those little table top CNC's I'm not sure how much your really going to push through one of those?

As far as a product that can make quick consistent cash....let us know when you find it! I'd love to have one of those products myself. In fact I think the idea of just staying in the shop and knocking stuff out all day every day without having to deal with the selling, designing, bidding, installing etc., etc., is pretty appealing. Might get boring after a while, but heck, if it was consistent cash in hand....I could live with it:D

good luck,
JeffD

[John Downey]

One thing to consider very carefully if you're looking at your own CNC setup - can you keep the machine busy enough to pay for it? Light duty CNC's are getting cheap enough that you don't need to worry as much about this question, but the number of businesses that have gone under due to lack of work to pay the overhead are beyond counting. For the first few jobs, its a really good idea to farm it out and let the other guy risk his capital.

Having too much work for your time is a pretty good problem to have if you can get there (assuming the work is profitable of course :D). Too much work is a problem you can solve if you are making money on your time, too few sales is a much tougher nut to crack. The wood business can be brutal as many guys try to solve problem #2 by cutting their margins down to almost nothing and then end up with problem #1 but too little profit to be able to solve it.

Earlier you asked about how many CNC machines you would need - honestly I don't know the answer. I do know that this is one question no one can answer for you -- others can tell you about machine capabilities, but they can't tell you about the requirements of your job. Once you've done this contract, and maybe two or three more like it, you will know what your requirements are, and then others can help you with which machine or group of machines will best meet those requirements.

[Michael W. Clark]

Don't let farming something out make you think that you are any less skilled or less of a woodworker because of it. Even in my line of work, most of our competitors subcontract fabrication and other parts of the equipment supply. The ones that have their own shop (we have one ourselves), still outsource some jobs due to the shop capabilities.

You are adding value by designing the piece, material selection and procurement, project management and logistics, assembly, etc. All of these are tasks the buyer is not willing to do or does not want to take the risk for. Once you have an established "niche" for your business, look at the economics of bringing some of the outsourced work back in-house or developing new sources/vendors. This could add more profit to the job or allow you to offer other features/options that add value and sales $$.

[Mark Bolton]

I seriously want a couple if not several CNC routers in the shop. Soon! I love doing one off custom work, but I need a product or a service that can make quick, consistent cash.

How many CNC machines do you think would be needed to tackle a project of this magnitude? 2? 4?

I think Ethan gives you some wise input. What he is basically saying is whats been the underlying theme through this entire thread. Its the old saying "you should learn to walk before you run". No one likes to hear it but its paramount when you are asking people to entrust their hard earned dollars with you.

I have no idea how to convey what "I" think a lot of the responses are getting at but it basically boils down to the fact that many of the questions your asking speak to a lack of the most basic fundamentals of commercial woodworking/case work/etc. Of course we all start somewhere, but if your not able to get formal training or spend some time (years) working in the industry (even if only in your own shop) learning and exposing yourself to the fundamentals you owe it to yourself, your children, your bank, heck forget about all those, you owe it to the customer who is trusting you with their hard earned dollar, to take baby steps and not bite off more than you can chew just because your chasing a payout. Your first and foremost obligation is to respect your customers budget and money above all else. I can tell you, if your expected to deliver industry standards on this job, trying to break it off in any manner youve covered so far is not respecting your customers money.

Its likely where many of us start but watching some public broadcasting woodworking shows, and enjoying woodworking, knocking out a few projects in your home shop, doesnt mean to just dive in and take on the most challenging projects you can find even if you were just making things for yourself, family, and friends. It absolutely is the wrong approach to start taking other peoples money while doing something youve never done before, and dont even have a grasp on the fundamentals.

Everyone does things for the first time but the shop usually has a very firm grasp on the fundamentals and can apply those to a new endeavor with measured caution. A lot of your questions make one wonder if you are missing a lot of the very basics, or in your shear excitement are moving way too fast in your own mind to even catch those misses before you start the project or start asking. I sometimes wonder if your bouncing around like a squirrel in your shop, bouncing from wall to wall, clinging to swinging light fixtures, tail flitt'ing around wildly.;)

Having been in general construction for many years I simply have a moral objection to people learning/cutting their teeth at their customers expense. People who build shoddy houses because they know no better but own a hammer, a ladder, and a couple bungee cords to strap it to the roof of their sedan or wifes minivan. They go out an steal from their customers charging the going rate, or slightly less, but delivering FAR less that they are paid for. I know all of them dont do this intentionally, some know no better, some think they are building things right, some just need the work and the money, and then there are those who know they are hacks and just take the money and run.

I dont think you are any of the latter, my gut feeling is in relative terms you are extremely new to woodworking in general and have with boundless excitement jumped into to something you think/thought is pretty easy. Now that your out there, you may get lucky, which I would hope for you, or you may find out its not all peaches and cream as Jeff said. What it seems to me you'll have to do is contain yourself to protect yourself and provide for your family.

Thinking your going to invest 30-50k in a CNC and have a machine sitting in the corner of your shop printing cash for you is delusional. Asking "how many CNC's do I need" is even more delusional. How many CNC's?

My guess is your realizing the custom work your getting (or not getting) isnt going to cover what you thought youd earn, or need to earn. Pouring more money into the pot isnt going to put that fire out and chasing any type of commercial work is a well defined recipe for disaster.

What usually happens for most is they start out small, they build a solid reputation and grow their business. When they opt to move out into a larger more committed space you have the luxury of taking that base of customers and knowledge with you. It seems you have flipped that on its head and have jumped out with little to no reputation or established customer base to draw from and are having to start from scratch with regards to learning your craft AND building your business. Either one of those is tough to do alone much less at the same time and in a still shaky economy to boot.

My advice would be to hunker down, keep costs and overhead as low as humanly possible, live and run your shop like a miser, take on as many small jobs as you possibly can, and over deliver. Tell your family they wont be seeing you for a while. Put a cot in the shop, work late hours, stay safe and keep all your fingers and eyeballs, dont send any more tools off to the landfill:eek:, and build your reputation and experience.

And another piece of advice thats just my $0.02, but as long as you look at every single job through the filter of what tools will you get to buy, you'll be sunk. Its a well chronicled recipe for broke.

[Michael Dunn]

I think Ethan gives you some wise input. What he is basically saying is whats been the underlying theme through this entire thread. Its the old saying "you should learn to walk before you run". No one likes to hear it but its paramount when you are asking people to entrust their hard earned dollars with you.

I have no idea how to convey what "I" think a lot of the responses are getting at but it basically boils down to the fact that many of the questions your asking speak to a lack of the most basic fundamentals of commercial woodworking/case work/etc. Of course we all start somewhere, but if your not able to get formal training or spend some time (years) working in the industry (even if only in your own shop) learning and exposing yourself to the fundamentals you owe it to yourself, your children, your bank, heck forget about all those, you owe it to the customer who is trusting you with their hard earned dollar, to take baby steps and not bite off more than you can chew just because your chasing a payout. Your first and foremost obligation is to respect your customers budget and money above all else. I can tell you, if your expected to deliver industry standards on this job, trying to break it off in any manner youve covered so far is not respecting your customers money.

Its likely where many of us start but watching some public broadcasting woodworking shows, and enjoying woodworking, knocking out a few projects in your home shop, doesnt mean to just dive in and take on the most challenging projects you can find even if you were just making things for yourself, family, and friends. It absolutely is the wrong approach to start taking other peoples money while doing something youve never done before, and dont even have a grasp on the fundamentals.

Everyone does things for the first time but the shop usually has a very firm grasp on the fundamentals and can apply those to a new endeavor with measured caution. A lot of your questions make one wonder if you are missing a lot of the very basics, or in your shear excitement are moving way too fast in your own mind to even catch those misses before you start the project or start asking. I sometimes wonder if your bouncing around like a squirrel in your shop, bouncing from wall to wall, clinging to swinging light fixtures, tail flitt'ing around wildly.;)

Having been in general construction for many years I simply have a moral objection to people learning/cutting their teeth at their customers expense. People who build shoddy houses because they know no better but own a hammer, a ladder, and a couple bungee cords to strap it to the roof of their sedan or wifes minivan. They go out an steal from their customers charging the going rate, or slightly less, but delivering FAR less that they are paid for. I know all of them dont do this intentionally, some know no better, some think they are building things right, some just need the work and the money, and then there are those who know they are hacks and just take the money and run.

I dont think you are any of the latter, my gut feeling is in relative terms you are extremely new to woodworking in general and have with boundless excitement jumped into to something you think/thought is pretty easy. Now that your out there, you may get lucky, which I would hope for you, or you may find out its not all peaches and cream as Jeff said. What it seems to me you'll have to do is contain yourself to protect yourself and provide for your family.

Thinking your going to invest 30-50k in a CNC and have a machine sitting in the corner of your shop printing cash for you is delusional. Asking "how many CNC's do I need" is even more delusional. How many CNC's?

My guess is your realizing the custom work your getting (or not getting) isnt going to cover what you thought youd earn, or need to earn. Pouring more money into the pot isnt going to put that fire out and chasing any type of commercial work is a well defined recipe for disaster.

What usually happens for most is they start out small, they build a solid reputation and grow their business. When they opt to move out into a larger more committed space you have the luxury of taking that base of customers and knowledge with you. It seems you have flipped that on its head and have jumped out with little to no reputation or established customer base to draw from and are having to start from scratch with regards to learning your craft AND building your business. Either one of those is tough to do alone much less at the same time and in a still shaky economy to boot.

My advice would be to hunker down, keep costs and overhead as low as humanly possible, live and run your shop like a miser, take on as many small jobs as you possibly can, and over deliver. Tell your family they wont be seeing you for a while. Put a cot in the shop, work late hours, stay safe and keep all your fingers and eyeballs, dont send any more tools off to the landfill:eek:, and build your reputation and experience.

And another piece of advice thats just my $0.02, but as long as you look at every single job through the filter of what tools will you get to buy, you'll be sunk. Its a well chronicled recipe for broke.

I definitely appreciate the input and it is duly noted. However, just because I am asking a simple question on how cut quickly a 45 degree angle on 1000 does not mean that I "don't even have a grasp on the fundamentals". Like I said in my earlier post, I always like to ask around to see if there is a better way than the way I would naturally tend to go to.

As for the CNC's... I'd like to have some automation, realistically I know it is probably a ways away. I like to set goals to strive for. Often times lofty goals that I may not even be able to achieve in the time frame that I set. That way if I fall short of the goal I have still made respectable progress. Then I reassess and move on.

CNC's are in my plans for the future. How many? I don't know. What size? I don't know. Asking a question such as that is hardly what I would call delusional.

As for this potential job... There is nothing about this cabinet, 1 or 200 that is beyond the fundamentals. Maybe, just the batch nature of the 200, but the construction, and milling of each one? No not at all. I'm certainly not claiming to be a bonafide expert where everything I touch turns to gold. However, I've been cutting dadoes, and rabbets using either a dado stack, a wobble blade (gosh those things suck! Used it once in high school, ONCE!!!) or a straight bit in a router with a straight edge and assembling similar and even more complicated designs for almost 20 years. Again, I'm 32 years old.

So far, I have a steady stream of work. My last job took far too long simply because I was still getting the new shop setup. I just would like to have a 'product' of some sort that is useful, marketable, and can be sold frequently to meet a customer demand and provide a steady stream of cash with less man hours. That sounds like a sound idea to me. Now, I certainly know and understand that is MUCH easier said than done. My brain is always thinking and coming up with new ideas to earn money more efficiently and provide for my family.

For the record, I already have a CNC machine. Granted, it is an X1 micro mill that I retrofitted with stepper motors. I took a $269.00 Harbor Freight micro mill invested about $1600 more into it and started a business modifying guitars. People from all over the world send their guitars, amplifiers, and pedals to me to modify. The CNC micro mill (roughly a $2k investment) has earned me (part time) in the last 4.5 years over $50k. All that with ZERO advertising. I simply started a legitimate LLC, got a state resale license, became an authorized dealer for the products I would need, developed a rapport with the product manufacturers and their tech support team, and now I am literally the only person in the universe doing what I do with guitars.

So as you can imagine, my brain tends to think... "Hmmm if I could earn over $50k part time over the course of 4.5 years with a tiny little micro mill from HF. Imagine what I could earn with a 25"x50" or a 4'x8' CNC router table."

As always, I appreciate the advice, but I would appreciate even more a little bit more respect for my skills. I've posted enough pictures of my work here to be known at least for being one who 'knows the fundamentals'. Again, I'm not claiming to be a master craftsman yet, but I know what I know and I know that I'm good. Better than good even. More importantly, I'm willing to learn and ask questions and admit where I lack.

As a business man, that's where I need to learn the most. You are totally right, I need to 'run my shop like a miser'. That, I haven't been too good at. I have to master that... now!

Very good advice Mark, and much appreciated!

[Mark Bolton]

I definitely appreciate the input and it is duly noted. However, just because I am asking a simple question on how cut quickly a 45 degree angle on 1000 does not mean that I "don't even have a grasp on the fundamentals".

Its beyond that. Your asking about knocking the corner off a piece of sheetgood. Its the least of your worries.



As for the CNC's... I'd like to have some automation, realistically I know it is probably a ways away.

Your last post said "soon!"


Often times lofty goals that I may not even be able to achieve in the time frame that I set.

Well, dont take it personally but, for many operating for many years, on a daily basis, in the business you have ventured into, your concept of "lofty" and "delusional" could be interchangeable.:p But its understood that "talking about it" may be fun or amusing to you. Hence one reference to "spitballing".. ;)



CNC's are in my plans for the future. How many? I don't know. What size? I don't know. Asking a question such as that is hardly what I would call delusional.

Well, the simple fact of the matter is... All but the most massive of shops (who's covered roof area may include some 10's of thousands of square feet, hundreds in total staff) may strive to have a single CNC as part of their operation. Think a very large commercial shop running .5 to .75 million or so in gross sales a year, a single CNC. Further than that it depends on what level your looking at. Tool changing, what level of investment, and so on.

Now in your first few months you plan to have multiple CNC's (who knows what the lofty time frame is for that but lets not worry about it). This could of course be true in that you could have 15-20 harbor freight CNC's scattered throughout your shop but in the scheme of the project you are contemplating we are talking a single machine which can process full sheets and will be in the several tens of thousands of dollars range by the time your done with the machine and all the needed support to go along with it. And thats just your first... And we havent even learned how to run it, feed it, and so on.


As for this potential job... There is nothing about this cabinet, 1 or 200 that is beyond the fundamentals. Maybe, just the batch nature of the 200, but the construction, and milling of each one? No not at all.

Your talking about dado's and rabbets. There is nothing about that box, with two sided melamine, which speaks to dado's and rabbets. There is nothing about the box that speaks to the Norm Abrhams (no disrespect because I admire the man) style of box construction. How will you fasten the rabbets? If you opt out of dado's how will you fix the partitions? I have asked several times in the thread, if you are going to rabbet, how will you deal with the exposed unfinished ends on the melamine? How will you produce thousands of dado's and rabbets all completely chip free? Fast? Profitably? Accurately? Then you reply that dado's are not the best approach (ding ding... your right!!) so now what? The rabbit hole deepens.....



I'm certainly not claiming to be a bonafide expert where everything I touch turns to gold. However, I've been cutting dadoes, and rabbets using either a dado stack, a wobble blade (gosh those things suck! Used it once in high school, ONCE!!!) or a straight bit in a router with a straight edge and assembling similar and even more complicated designs for almost 20 years. Again, I'm 32 years old.

If that were the case, with a single sheet of melamine, you wouldnt be proposing remotely being possible with dado's and rabbets on a commercial casework piece like this. Without an edge bander, doweling/boring, clamp, and CNC or slider. Its just that simple. I wouldnt even try this with my slider even if I had the boring, banding, and clamping, in house. I'd still sub out the machining because I know it would be an utter nightmare with any tool I have in my shop. Ive cut a sheet or two of melamine. Even for 80k gross I wouldnt hoove all those sheets around manually when I could have a shop do it all for less, and cleaner.


I just would like to have a 'product' of some sort that is useful, marketable, and can be sold frequently to meet a customer demand and provide a steady stream of cash with less man hours. That sounds like a sound idea to me. Now, I certainly know and understand that is MUCH easier said than done. My brain is always thinking and coming up with new ideas to earn money more efficiently and provide for my family.

Congratulations, so arent we all. I honestly wish you the best of luck, and dont say that snidely, I honestly hope you find it. We are all looking for the exact same thing.


For the record, I already have a CNC machine. Granted, it is an X1 micro mill that I retrofitted with stepper motors. I took a........................

I am aware, which is why I replied to one of your posts some time ago that you have an established base that "I" would be building on as opposed to starting down a far more difficult path where you have far less experience. Exploiting that base could well serve as a way to bring in much needed funds and afford you the time to refine your craft. Its just me, but I would be chasing that avenue far more aggressively than I would a "potential" return.


"Hmmm if I could earn over $50k part time over the course of 4.5 years with a tiny little micro mill from HF. Imagine what I could earn with a 25"x50" or a 4'x8' CNC router table."

I havent bothered to look back but for some reason I recall a number less than 50k the last time but its of no concern. 12.5k a year is a good base but as you are finding it wont keep a shop and family afloat. Its a great starting point though.


As always, I appreciate the advice, but I would appreciate even more a little bit more respect for my skills. I've posted enough pictures of my work here to be known at least for being one who 'knows the fundamentals'. Again, I'm not claiming to be a master craftsman yet, but I know what I know and I know that I'm good. Better than good even. More importantly, I'm willing to learn and ask questions and admit where I lack.

Well, some would say respect is earned, but I would say this is in no way about respect. I think for most who have replied its more about concern. You seem to be approaching this single project from every angle other than a profitable one. I would argue the best approach would be to walk away unless you have some very intimate relationship with the customer who is willing to extend you massive latitude with regards to time and quality perhaps in trade for a reduced price.

For poops and giggles, what are your other options for construction as opposed to dados and rabbets? Are all parts to be banded? You need channels on all of the angled face openings and angles on the others?

Its all just input, take it for what it is,...

[Ethan Melad]

Mark Bolton:
you wouldnt be proposing ...dado's and rabbets on a commercial casework piece like this. Without an edge bander, doweling/boring, clamp, and CNC or slider. Its just that simple.

This is my thinking too. While I believe you have a knowledge of "the fundamentals", those 'fundamentals' have little bearing on how to properly and efficiently make this type of product. Sure, you CAN make them with dadoes and rabbets, sure you COULD make them with butt joints, and I imagine you know how to do that. But these methods would be out of place here. Like Mark says, this pretty much needs CNC cutout, dowel boring, and maybe screw hole pre-drilling. then theres edge banding (i still don't understand whats going on with the aluminum- how do you use aluminum angle to band the top front edge and angled top of the partitions?).

I think we should clarify though - that of course you CAN do all this on your own, maybe with the machinery you have now, and maybe it would look fantastic. But it would make no sense in terms of efficiency or profitability.

[Phil Thien]

Take a look at a Modulus scoring attachment here:

http://www.finewoodworking.com/tool-guide/product-finder/modulus-2000-machinery-scoring-saw-attachment-ss-100.aspx

Google for reviews. They provide chipout-free cutting, and will go through a lift or two of melamine before requiring sharpening. Approx. $400.

In terms of joinery, dowels are pretty commonplace when it comes to melamine. But a lot of melamine type stuff is assembled by the end user. I wonder how long it would take to assemble 200 of these with dowels and allow enough time for the glue to set. How many clamps would one need? I suppose you could assemble them on their backs and use the weight of the parts to provide some clamping, but I'd be nervous about that.

If the client would allow, perhaps biscuits with a couple of well-placed (somewhat concealed) pocket screws to hold while the glue sets would be acceptable?

[Jeff Duncan]

So wait a minute.....you already have a business providing a service that grosses you over $12k a year with no advertising whatsoever? Why are you looking for a new product when you haven't developed the one you already have? If you invent the wheel you don't put it aside to go invent something else, you go and sell the heck out of it! Please don't take this the wrong way, but your going about this ass backwards. If I were you I'd put custom cabinetry on the back burner and focus on growing and expanding the services you already provide. Cabinetry has to be one of the hardest things to do profitably. Finding and cornering a niche market is so far and away a better way to go I can't grasp what you hope to do by expanding into cabinet work???

JeffD

[Stephen Cherry]

Cabinetry has to be one of the hardest things to do profitably.
JeffD

This has been a great thread- one of the threads that offer much more insight than the original question even asks. And once again, Thanks to all of the professionals who have generously offered up their experience. Lots more to the equation than just cutting the corners off of the squares, and doing it competitively with outfits that are set up for it seems like it would be very hard to pull off.

[Mark Bolton]

This has been a great thread- one of the threads that offer much more insight than the original question even asks. And once again, Thanks to all of the professionals who have generously offered up their experience. Lots more to the equation than just cutting the corners off of the squares, and doing it competitively with outfits that are set up for it seems like it would be very hard to pull off.

A builder I once knew always oversimplified it by saying... The villiage idiot can build a house, its making money at it thats the trick. While its not actually that simple, the same holds true for anything, including this.

Im sure anyone here can build the box we are talking about. But building 200 of them, profitably, is a lot different than building a single unit. Most would think it gets easier, and some parts of it do, but as a whole it gets harder especially given the fact that the volume will command a very competitive price allowing little room for error.

But it sure looks simple in the drawing.. ;)

[Duane Meadows]

Take a look at a Modulus scoring attachment here:

http://www.finewoodworking.com/tool-guide/product-finder/modulus-2000-machinery-scoring-saw-attachment-ss-100.aspx

Google for reviews. They provide chipout-free cutting, and will go through a lift or two of melamine before requiring sharpening. Approx. $400.

In terms of joinery, dowels are pretty commonplace when it comes to melamine. But a lot of melamine type stuff is assembled by the end user. I wonder how long it would take to assemble 200 of these with dowels and allow enough time for the glue to set. How many clamps would one need? I suppose you could assemble them on their backs and use the weight of the parts to provide some clamping, but I'd be nervous about that.

If the client would allow, perhaps biscuits with a couple of well-placed (somewhat concealed) pocket screws to hold while the glue sets would be acceptable?

There is a good example... great product idea! Apparently they couldn't make it either! Try the web link in that article, call the 800#. It takes much more than a great idea to make it in business.

Michael, how long will $50,000 gross keep up with current expenses? For the matter can you even tells us(forget us, can you tell yourself) what the net income off that $50k was? Do you know how much you need to sell(gross) to keep your doors open, let alone pay yourself anything? What is your profit margin on the projects you sell(hint: that includes overhead, not just cost of materials)?

How much time can you afford to spend selling, and still be able to make what you sell? If you pay an employee $20/hour, what is the total cost to the business. What form of advertising will give you the best ROI?

All the cabinet makers I know can tell stories of getting stiffed on cabinets because walls were not square, installation issues, and others things out of their control. Can you personally install 200 cabinets and still have time to build them, and sell, and run the business, etc?


These are questions you MUST have the answer to, and soon. These are just a few of the questions I really hope you have well thought out. Been there, done that. No desire to do it again.

[eugene thomas]

I think unless you can mix other jobs in while doing this job you will not enjoy going to work. Mean will be like factory job. And you shop right now seems to be set up for custom woodworking this screams production job.

[Phil Thien]

There is a good example... great product idea! Apparently they couldn't make it either! Try the web link in that article, call the 800#. It takes much more than a great idea to make it in business.


LOL, what the heck does whether Modulus is still around have to do with whether Michael can make a profit building these cabinets?

I'll tell you what: Zero.

There are plenty of Modulus 2000 scoring attachments still available for sale, I count at least a dozen online vendors, at least some of which indicate the products are in stock. They're even available brand-new on eBay. The reviews all indicate they work wonderfully, providing a beautiful cut with zero chipout, and they'll go through a couple of lifts before the blades need sharpening.

I started my own [IT] business in 1988. Nearly everyone around me, with the exception of my parents and my wife, were extremely discouraging. I realized in fairly short order that about 99% of the herd didn't want me to succeed. They counted my successes as their own failures.

I'm not going to say Michael should bid aggressively, or that he has a snowball's chance in hell. Bid high. Heck, I once bid a project for Intel's DSP division and bid sky-high (many unknowns) and I got the job. They told me nobody else even bid against me. I made a killing on that!

I'm sure glad you guys weren't around to discourage me, I might have listened.

[Mark Bolton]

LOL, what the heck does whether Modulus is still around have to do with whether Michael can make a profit building these cabinets?

I'll tell you what: Zero.

There are plenty of Modulus 2000 scoring attachments still available for sale, I count at least a dozen online vendors, at least some of which indicate the products are in stock. They're even available brand-new on eBay. The reviews all indicate they work wonderfully, providing a beautiful cut with zero chipout, and they'll go through a couple of lifts before the blades need sharpening.

I started my own [IT] business in 1988. Nearly everyone around me, with the exception of my parents and my wife, were extremely discouraging. I realized in fairly short order that about 99% of the herd didn't want me to succeed. They counted my successes as their own failures.

I'm not going to say Michael should bid aggressively, or that he has a snowball's chance in hell. Bid high. Heck, I once bid a project for Intel's DSP division and bid sky-high (many unknowns) and I got the job. They told me nobody else even bid against me. I made a killing on that!

I'm sure glad you guys weren't around to discourage me, I might have listened.

Phil,
I for one want Michael to do nothing but succeed. I want that for the sake of his family (who I don't know from a stranger) as it seems he has pinned his and their fate to this endeavor. I have no idea if his wife earns a great income or not but regardless I want him to succeed.

Beyond that however you have to be realistic. I have no idea what an IT comparison would be but in virtually any venture you have to work within your limits taking risks with caution. This is all I have been saying.

Regardless of your venture you have to be realistic and smart. Moreso now than ever.

[Phil Thien]

Phil,
I for one want Michael to do nothing but succeed. I want that for the sake of his family (who I don't know from a stranger) as it seems he has pinned his and their fate to this endeavor. I have no idea if his wife earns a great income or not but regardless I want him to succeed.

Beyond that however you have to be realistic. I have no idea what an IT comparison would be but in virtually any venture you have to work within your limits taking risks with caution. This is all I have been saying.

Regardless of your venture you have to be realistic and smart. Moreso now than ever.

The picture of the cabinet as posted isn't terribly different than kitchen cabinet boxes being built in thousands of small shops all around the country, using fairly ordinary tools and utilizing the same [melamine] materials.

This thread became all about why he can't, rather than how he could.

People have acted like Michael was asking how to split atoms with his table saw.

[Chris Fournier]

The picture of the cabinet as posted isn't terribly different than kitchen cabinet boxes being built in thousands of small shops all around the country, using fairly ordinary tools and utilizing the same [melamine] materials.

This thread became all about why he can't, rather than how he could.

People have acted like Michael was asking how to split atoms with his table saw.

Rather people suggested splitting atoms with bandsaws, skilsaws and jig saws.

Logical and economically viable methods have been suggested but you don't seem to like them because they aren't homegrown. That's fine Phil but let's pull back for a moment and realise that cutting these parts is likely the simplest part of this entire project. Your experience may be that your friends were not supportive, they wanted to see you fail. I think that what you are seeing here is people not wanting to watch someone drown so to speak.

We are throwing around parts counts of a few thousand like it's no sweat while most folks here have yet to deal with parts counts of a hundred or perhaps even a few dozen.

[hank dekeyser]

When building my kitchen cabinets recently, I had 2 options - (well 2 that made sense to me) ONE- machine the sides myself (truck in several sheets, cut to size, drill all the hinge and slide mount holes, assembly holes, etc. or TWO-- farm it out to a local shop and cut a check and drive off with my parts ready for assembly.
That's right.I cut a check--- perfect parts, edge banded, drilled, and all the assembly hardwares - Ta-daaaa. I don't understand what the problem is or which part of "here is the easiest solution" is not being understood - To me it's a no brainer- Your cost is established w/ the shop doing the work, they supply all the materials, you drive up, load your truck, drive to the customers site and assemble on site. Done deal -

[Phil Thien]

Rather people suggested splitting atoms with bandsaws, skilsaws and jig saws.

Logical and economically viable methods have been suggested but you don't seem to like them because they aren't homegrown.

That's fine Phil but let's pull back for a moment and realise that cutting these parts is likely the simplest part of this entire project. Your experience may be that your friends were not supportive, they wanted to see you fail. I think that what you are seeing here is people not wanting to watch someone drown so to speak.

We are throwing around parts counts of a few thousand like it's no sweat while most folks here have yet to deal with parts counts of a hundred or perhaps even a few dozen.

A few thousand? I thought we were talking 200 units, each comprised of nine parts. That is 1800 parts, not a few thousand. Am I missing parts?

In your first post in this thread you said "Any suggestions as to how to machine double sided melamine with standard hobby shop equipment or hand held power tools are not helpful. You will lose your shirt nad reputation...Come up with a good design, that assembles easily and repeatably, use the services of a CNC equiped shop to knock out the parts and deliver a good product on time and make some money."

Now that I post the Modulus, which is highly regarded and used in shops where they talk volume in lifts of melamine, you now say cutting the parts is the simplest part of the project. Now the problem is assembly.

Nobody has addressed what it would take to get 1800 parts from the CNC shop to Michael's shop without dinging edges/corners.

And nobody (that I'm aware of) has even asked how long he'd have to complete the cases.

My point is, no matter what Michael says, you guys are going to toss up road-blocks. Your minds are made-up that it isn't possible to build 200 of these in a conventional shop.

I say that is nonsense.

[Phil Thien]

When building my kitchen cabinets recently, I had 2 options - (well 2 that made sense to me) ONE- machine the sides myself (truck in several sheets, cut to size, drill all the hinge and slide mount holes, assembly holes, etc. or TWO-- farm it out to a local shop and cut a check and drive off with my parts ready for assembly.
That's right.I cut a check--- perfect parts, edge banded, drilled, and all the assembly hardwares - Ta-daaaa. I don't understand what the problem is or which part of "here is the easiest solution" is not being understood - To me it's a no brainer- Your cost is established w/ the shop doing the work, they supply all the materials, you drive up, load your truck, drive to the customers site and assemble on site. Done deal -

That's great, but Michael is trying to win a bid. Each middle-man he adds, adds to his cost, and possibly makes him less competitive.

You guys get that, right? Why even run the shop, why not sub everything out?

Answer: Because you'll never win any bids. Because typically, the more work you can perform yourself, the more money you get to keep.

[Richard Coers]

A few thousand? I thought we were talking 200 units, each comprised of nine parts. That is 1800 parts, not a few thousand. Am I missing parts?

In your first post in this thread you said "Any suggestions as to how to machine double sided melamine with standard hobby shop equipment or hand held power tools are not helpful. You will lose your shirt nad reputation...Come up with a good design, that assembles easily and repeatably, use the services of a CNC equiped shop to knock out the parts and deliver a good product on time and make some money."

Now that I post the Modulus, which is highly regarded and used in shops where they talk volume in lifts of melamine, you now say cutting the parts is the simplest part of the project. Now the problem is assembly.

Nobody has addressed what it would take to get 1800 parts from the CNC shop to Michael's shop without dinging edges/corners.

And nobody (that I'm aware of) has even asked how long he'd have to complete the cases.

My point is, no matter what Michael says, you guys are going to toss up road-blocks. Your minds are made-up that it isn't possible to build 200 of these in a conventional shop.

I say that is nonsense.

I swore I would stop reading and replying to this post, but like the proverbial car crash, I just can't keep from looking. Gosh Phil, you make a great defender of all things Quixote. Hope that is a good comparison since I am a simple woodworker. Keep defending the Illinois entrepreneur if you must, but also respect the advice of those that have fought these battles over and over. A career in IT may not put you in the best position to judge advice given here from cabinetmakers with decades of experience. Sorry your friends did not support you and your business venture. Bummer!

[Chris Fournier]

A few thousand? I thought we were talking 200 units, each comprised of nine parts. That is 1800 parts, not a few thousand. Am I missing parts?

In your first post in this thread you said "Any suggestions as to how to machine double sided melamine with standard hobby shop equipment or hand held power tools are not helpful. You will lose your shirt nad reputation...Come up with a good design, that assembles easily and repeatably, use the services of a CNC equiped shop to knock out the parts and deliver a good product on time and make some money."

Now that I post the Modulus, which is highly regarded and used in shops where they talk volume in lifts of melamine, you now say cutting the parts is the simplest part of the project. Now the problem is assembly.

Nobody has addressed what it would take to get 1800 parts from the CNC shop to Michael's shop without dinging edges/corners.

And nobody (that I'm aware of) has even asked how long he'd have to complete the cases.

My point is, no matter what Michael says, you guys are going to toss up road-blocks. Your minds are made-up that it isn't possible to build 200 of these in a conventional shop.

I say that is nonsense.

Yes Phil you are missing lots of parts. Perhaps the edging? Be it aluminum or banding these are parts. There are of course the fasteners whatever they may be as well, parts in my books too.

No one has thrown up a road block that I can recall, certainly a few cautions about the road ahead but no road blocks.

"Nobody has addressed what it would take to get 1800 parts from the CNC shop to Michael's shop without dinging edges/corners." - Just maybe the CNC sub-contractor would be delivering these parts unscathed as part of their bid! A road block of your own perhaps!

To think that subbing out processes necessarily takes a chunk out of profitability is not the case. To think that doing it all in house maximizes profitability is not necessarily the case either.

I agree with you 100% that we don't have all of the info to make a perfect decision here, only the OP can collect all of that info. I will be interested in the outcome of this thread and wish the OP the best of luck.

Signing off of this one,


Chris

[Steve Rozmiarek]

You know, I come to this forum periodically for inspiration and a break from the day job. I do this until I get so fed up hearing why something can't be done a thousand different ways. It's fun when someone asks a question or comments in a way that inspires creative thought. It's the exact opposite when the hoard of naysayers start up. Seriously, there are as many ways to do something as there are people, enjoy their journey, they may be onto something.

Michael, I personally think your new business venture is something I'd love to try, and I'm enjoying hearing about it. Thanks for sharing.

[Phil Thien]

I swore I would stop reading and replying to this post, but like the proverbial car crash, I just can't keep from looking. Gosh Phil, you make a great defender of all things Quixote. Hope that is a good comparison since I am a simple woodworker. Keep defending the Illinois entrepreneur if you must, but also respect the advice of those that have fought these battles over and over. A career in IT may not put you in the best position to judge advice given here from cabinetmakers with decades of experience. Sorry your friends did not support you and your business venture. Bummer!

So far nobody has told me how this display case is materially different than the kitchen cabinets being cranked out in small shops all around the country with the same tools Michael has at his disposal.

None of the experts have explained why they didn't ask how long he'd have. I happen to know, do you? The answer would surprise you. And it really is the obvious question, BTW. No expert should miss that question, IMHO. Building 200 of these in a week is a completely different job than building 200 in (for example) twelve weeks. Completely different animal.

Nobody mentioned the Modulus. I called a local cabinet shop and asked how to cut melamine and they said, "we use a Modulus, just Google it."

And thanks for the sympathy but I think the point of the story was completely lost on you.

[Stephen Cherry]

So far nobody has told me how this display case is materially different than the kitchen cabinets being cranked out in small shops all around the country with the same tools Michael has at his disposal.



I'll take a stab at this.

On one of my first days as an engineer, one of the more experienced guys told me- "Steve, try not to think too much, if you can- copy what somebody else did". Many years later, this advice is still with me.

Of course, even a garage shop can build a decent kitchen cabinet using the normal hobby level tools- jointer, planer, sliding table saw, shapers, line boring machine, pocket hole machine, etc. These are plywood box, face frame cabinets, with 5 piece doors. face frames pocket screwed together, with the pocket holes hidden between the frame and box. Boxes could be dadoed and nailed, screwed, or pocket holed together. With a normal face frame cabinet, there is plenty of room to hide the construction on the top, bottom, and back. Add some paint (it's fortunate that hand painted cabinets are in style right now), or a simple finish, and you are OK. Look around, and you can see lots of ways to put a normal cabinet together.

Now for frameless cabinets, or melamine construction. If you take a look at what is normal, you see the melamine panel, and edgebanding. So yes, you need to cut the panel. So a SCORING SAW, or spindle based machine with compression bits is in order. Then the edgebanding. There is lots of debate over how much EDGEBANDER is enough, and it's all over my head, but it's safe to say a good edgebander is more complex than the whole rest of a woodshop put together. (feeding, gluing, multiple spindles, cutting-- edgebanders are complex) Then how to put the panels together. Also over my head, but I've seen horizontal-vertical boring machines that would be used for doweling. Or you need to drill for ready-to-assemble fasteners (another machine). If you ever want to make a cabinet, you need a hinge machine.

Frameless cabinets are simple, but you need lots of high dollar machines to make them. Edgebanding with an old iron is not going to do it because if the edgebanding falls off the first question you would be asked is "did you apply the banding using the industry accepted method?"

So after this investment, and an initial project, what are you (hypothetically) going to do? You have that edgebander payment to make. The easy answer is kitchen cabinets. The thing to do is to go to IKEA, and see what they have and how they do it.

BUT, IKEA is making these melamine cabinets cheaper and better than you ever could on a small scale, and you can get some Swedish meatballs before you pick up the cabinets. BY the way, IKEA has the cabinets pre built, boxed, and ready to go, even as I am typing this.

I'll just say, I am a life long do it yourselfer, I even mount and balance my own car tires to save a buck. But it seems to me that the opportunity cost here is mighty high, and the competition very steep. And people do not want their melamine cabinets to have craftsmanship, they want that extruded look.

[Mark Bolton]

So far nobody has told me how this display case is materially different than the kitchen cabinets being cranked out in small shops all around the country with the same tools Michael has at his disposal.

With all do respect Phil, you see, this makes my point.

You look at this box and see a box that is nothing more than a kitchen cabinet and think you could knockout a few hundred in your basement or garage.

I on the other hand look at this box and see nothing like that.

You compare it to an everyday melamine frameless box? Kitchen cabinets have concealed ends which allow for screwing or confirmats or any other means of mechanical fastening because no one is going to see the ends. If they are, generally a finished end panel is applied or some other means of fastening is used.

I look at this box, and until told otherwise (which I have indirectly asked and addressed) and I see a box that is going to be, or could potentially be, viewed from all sides. This to me, thinking of this in an industry standards sort of way, that there will either be no exposed fasteners or if the customer allows, color matched plugs/caps/whatever. The no exposed would be my default. Without know the use, or if the maker is even allowed into the design process that would be my default.

So no, to me this is nothing like a cabinet box. Is it the space shuttle? Absolutely not. Could I make it? Absolutely. Could Michael make it? Absolutely. Could you make 200 of them profitably? In house? No way in the hot place.

Now you say, well if exposed fasteners and caps are allowable that simplifies things. Not really. Now you have precise drilling and counter boring so the end result is clean. All of which again should be chip free. All the edgebanding, an amount that could in no way be chunked off without a serious bander. Boring and doweling for the partitions. And so on.

Then after that, you have the task of figuring out how you will squeeze that entire box dead tight, and fast, while you assemble. We're not talking about a few bar clamps and cauls here. Were talking about drawing, at a minimum, 7 parts, more than a dozen dowels, all at the same time, all square, and all tight.

There are countless other minutia but...

Now of course this could all be poof if the customer says they don't care if they see drywall screws and staples on the outside. I find this hard to believe with black two sided and the aluminum edges. Further, any commercial shop is going to set the standard and something near the style if construction I outlined AND still beat the price a small shop can do a lesser job at. So that will likely be your benchmark.

Who knows, maybe Michael will throw out a 750/unit bid and no other shop will bite that worm..

[Phil Thien]

I'll take a stab at this.

On one of my first days as an engineer, one of the more experienced guys told me- "Steve, try not to think too much, if you can- copy what somebody else did". Many years later, this advice is still with me.

Sounds like good advice for a newbie, but an innovation/creativity killer for a more experienced engineer, to be perfectly honest.


Of course, even a garage shop can build a decent kitchen cabinet using the normal hobby level tools- jointer, planer, sliding table saw, shapers, line boring machine, pocket hole machine, etc. These are plywood box, face frame cabinets, with 5 piece doors. face frames pocket screwed together, with the pocket holes hidden between the frame and box.

Stop there. You are apparently unaware there are small 2-3 man operations building frameless melamine kitchen cabinets. Everything you typed beyond that point, that frameless kitchen cabinets need lots of high dollar machines, etc., just really isn't accurate. In fact, frameless kitchen cabinets are easier/faster/cheaper to build than face-frame cabinets, IMHO. I have built both for my basement.

I will agree that if you want to built them like Ikea, in those volumes, then yes, you need some expensive machines.

And Ikea has come up several times in this thread. But many of you have failed to identify WHY Ikea cabinets are built like they are. And I didn't see Michael say anything that would indicate the customer would agree to this. Maybe they would, maybe they'd prefer it, maybe they'd not.

Ikea cabinets are built RTA. They are designed for the consumer to assemble. And not with glue so much as cam locks. They are RTA, and RT-disassemble. The dowels are for alignment and strength, they aren't typically glued and again, the products typically rely on cam locks.

Now, Michael's prospect may LIKE that. They could ship a flat pack to a site and have it assembled there. BUT, they might prefer preassembled pieces, assembled with glue and splines. If the prospect wanted RTA, they probably would have specified that in the request for bids, and Michael would have looked at that and said, "I'm out."


Boxes could be dadoed and nailed, screwed, or pocket holed together. With a normal face frame cabinet, there is plenty of room to hide the construction on the top, bottom, and back. Add some paint (it's fortunate that hand painted cabinets are in style right now), or a simple finish, and you are OK. Look around, and you can see lots of ways to put a normal cabinet together.

Now for frameless cabinets, or melamine construction. If you take a look at what is normal, you see the melamine panel, and edgebanding. So yes, you need to cut the panel. So a SCORING SAW, or spindle based machine with compression bits is in order. Then the edgebanding. There is lots of debate over how much EDGEBANDER is enough, and it's all over my head, but it's safe to say a good edgebander is more complex than the whole rest of a woodshop put together. (feeding, gluing, multiple spindles, cutting-- edgebanders are complex) Then how to put the panels together. Also over my head, but I've seen horizontal-vertical boring machines that would be used for doweling. Or you need to drill for ready-to-assemble fasteners (another machine). If you ever want to make a cabinet, you need a hinge machine.

Frameless cabinets are simple, but you need lots of high dollar machines to make them. Edgebanding with an old iron is not going to do it because if the edgebanding falls off the first question you would be asked is "did you apply the banding using the industry accepted method?"

Go to eBay and type in "edgebander." If he got the contract, there are numerous products available for under $2K that would suit the bill.



So after this investment, and an initial project, what are you (hypothetically) going to do? You have that edgebander payment to make. The easy answer is kitchen cabinets. The thing to do is to go to IKEA, and see what they have and how they do it.

BUT, IKEA is making these melamine cabinets cheaper and better than you ever could on a small scale, and you can get some Swedish meatballs before you pick up the cabinets. BY the way, IKEA has the cabinets pre built, boxed, and ready to go, even as I am typing this.

I'll just say, I am a life long do it yourselfer, I even mount and balance my own car tires to save a buck. But it seems to me that the opportunity cost here is mighty high, and the competition very steep. And people do not want their melamine cabinets to have craftsmanship, they want that extruded look.


The Ikea comparisons are all missing the mark. I'm not sure if the client would even accept RTA cabinets. Have you ever shipped an RTA cabinet? They don't handle it well, they are designed to be assembled and sort of left alone. In a retail environment, they may not hold up very well.

[Phil Thien]

With all do respect Phil, you see, this makes my point.

You look at this box and see a box that is nothing more than a kitchen cabinet and think you could knockout a few hundred in your basement or garage.

I on the other hand look at this box and see nothing like that.

You compare it to an everyday melamine frameless box? Kitchen cabinets have concealed ends which allow for screwing or confirmats or any other means of mechanical fastening because no one is going to see the ends. If they are, generally a finished end panel is applied or some other means of fastening is used.

Not necessarily true. Next time you're at your doctor's office, inspect the cabinets in the examining room. You will often find an all-melamine cabinet with exposed melamine sides where the ends are banded.


I look at this box, and until told otherwise (which I have indirectly asked and addressed) and I see a box that is going to be, or could potentially be, viewed from all sides. This to me, thinking of this in an industry standards sort of way, that there will either be no exposed fasteners or if the customer allows, color matched plugs/caps/whatever. The no exposed would be my default. Without know the use, or if the maker is even allowed into the design process that would be my default.

Yes, long splines or biscuits would be my choice.


So no, to me this is nothing like a cabinet box. Is it the space shuttle? Absolutely not. Could I make it? Absolutely. Could Michael make it? Absolutely. Could you make 200 of them profitably? In house? No way in the hot place.

We don't even know how much he'd charge or how long he'd have. To say that it can't be done profitably is relying on facts not in evidence.


Now you say, well if exposed fasteners and caps are allowable that simplifies things. Not really. Now you have precise drilling and counter boring so the end result is clean. All of which again should be chip free. All the edgebanding, an amount that could in no way be chunked off without a serious bander. Boring and doweling for the partitions. And so on.

Then after that, you have the task of figuring out how you will squeeze that entire box dead tight, and fast, while you assemble. We're not talking about a few bar clamps and cauls here. Were talking about drawing, at a minimum, 7 parts, more than a dozen dowels, all at the same time, all square, and all tight.

There are countless other minutia but...

Now of course this could all be poof if the customer says they don't care if they see drywall screws and staples on the outside. I find this hard to believe with black two sided and the aluminum edges. Further, any commercial shop is going to set the standard and something near the style if construction I outlined AND still beat the price a small shop can do a lesser job at. So that will likely be your benchmark.

Who knows, maybe Michael will throw out a 750/unit bid and no other shop will bite that worm..

They want 200 units, right? Not 750.

Nonetheless, let me cut to the chase:

Phil's method of assembly.

(1) Cut pieces.
(2) Band pieces.
(3) Use router with edge guide and down-cut spiral bit to create slot for bottom.
(4) Use router-table mounted 5/32" slotting bit to slot the ends of the sides/partition pieces.
(5) Use spacer boards to align a biscuit cutter to cut slots in front/back.
(6) Assemble units on their back, on sheets of MDF, on the floor. Use 3m glue guns on two biscuits per side of each side/partition, use PVA glue on others. The hot-melt glue is going to hold things tight enough until the PVA sets up.
(7) Slide-in bottom.
(8) Attach front using same method as #6.
(9) Square the unit, and then shoot staples up through the bottom into each partition to keep the unit square.

Build unit #2 right on top of the one you just finished.

[Jeff Duncan]

This thread has taken a turn for the worst! First off I think guys need to step back for a minute and put things into perspective. There's a difference between doing things for a hobby and doing them as a business. I'd guess if Michael wanted to build 200 boxes for his basement he'd get a lot more positive responses. He's not though, he's trying to do them as a business and do them profitably which is a completely different animal. As someone who's done this for a living for about 12 years now I feel there's a lot of "stuff" being thrown around. For instance the idea that subbing stuff out makes you less competitive is utter nonsense. Most successful small shops sub out doors and drawers these days. It's simple economics, you cannot build certain things as quickly to the same degree of quality as a shop that specializes in them. So my building doors and drawers in house actually makes me less competitive, not the other way around. It's not the more work you do the more money you keep, sorry, that's just blatantly false! If Michael has a CNC shop cut the parts he'll make more money, period. It may not makes sense to you if your not doing it for a living, but that's how it is. The fact of the matter is people who make the most money is in this business never touch a tool or a piece of wood. They open a show room and are middlemen.

Second, the idea that you can make Euro cabinets easily without expensive equipment is again not quite accurate. While it's true that it's easy to make them in your basement, in the context of this discussion we're talking about making things profitably. And I'll say again, there's a big difference between doing something as a hobby and doing it to make a profit. To be competitive with Euro cabinets you really need at the very least some type of construction boring machine and a decent edgebander, not a little table top jobber that uses a hair dryer, but a good bander that'll apply at the very least 1mm pvc banding. Your just not going to be competitive using a cordless drill and an iron. Can you find an edgebander on e-bay for $2k....sure. Now can you find one that's working that needs little further work for $2k....not a chance. An edgebander is a very complicated machine with a lot of moving parts that have to be completely in sync and working properly. One day it works fine for you, the next....? If your lucky and really shop around you can probably find a decent one, get it shipped to your shop, and have a tech set it up for a little under $5k. Now I'm still not sure what banding this particular project requires so can't say whether or not Michael will need to have the banding outsourced or not? Generally speaking, anything commercial is going to need at least 1mm PVC if not thicker, therefore requiring an edgebander for application.

I've seen a lot of those small 2 and 3 man shops go under over the last 12 years including a close friend of mines. It's not nearly as easy as some here seem to think it is. There's what it looks like from the outside looking in, and then there's the reality of doing it. I'm not posting here b/c I'm a pessimistic old curmudgeon that wants to see Michael fail, or b/c I enjoy the argument and stirring things up! I'm taking time to post b/c I've 12 years of getting up every day and trying to make a buck doing it. I've put everything I have into my business and I still come to work not knowing if I'll still be open next month. If you approach this business in the same way you approach a hobby you've already failed. If you bid projects sky high hoping nobody will bid against you, your going to fail. If you think your going to come in and re-invent the wheel every day, your going to fail. The point is not to convince Michael not to do this job, the point is to have him do it and make money at it so he can move on to the next job.

JeffD

[Mark Bolton]

Not necessarily true. Next time you're at your doctor's office, inspect the cabinets in the examining room. You will often find an all-melamine cabinet with exposed melamine sides where the ends are banded.

Right, and this is where Im saying there is another means of fastening, likely dowels, assembled in a case clamp.




Yes, long splines or biscuits would be my choice.

Sure, or dowels. I am not sure Id be comfortable with two biscuits and their minimal surface area to contain the partitions but again its depends on the intended use. Tossing the bins full of teddy bears or ping pong balls is a lot different than a heavier item.



They want 200 units, right? Not 750.

Not following, my reference to 750 was a $750/unit cost as compared to the example everyone is using of 400. The 400 number is just an example as I believe Michael stated he talked to another shop who said 400 but we dont know if thats what they would have charged for the completed piece, what theyd charge for the machining, or what theyd charge for the machining and material. Its never bothered to be corrected which is really irrelevant because no one is talking about whether 400 is fair or not, its just been used as an arbitrary number.

My 750 comment was in relation to your statement of landing a job with a high bid because no one else would touch it. I highly doubt this will be the case if this item is put out to bid because its day in and day out work for a shop setup to make it.



Phil's method of assembly.

(1) Cut pieces.
(2) Band pieces.
(3) Use router with edge guide and down-cut spiral bit to create slot for bottom.
(4) Use router-table mounted 5/32" slotting bit to slot the ends of the sides/partition pieces.
(5) Use spacer boards to align a biscuit cutter to cut slots in front/back.
(6) Assemble units on their back, on sheets of MDF, on the floor. Use 3m glue guns on two biscuits per side of each side/partition, use PVA glue on others. The hot-melt glue is going to hold things tight enough until the PVA sets up.
(7) Slide-in bottom.
(8) Attach front using same method as #6.
(9) Square the unit, and then shoot staples up through the bottom into each partition to keep the unit square.

Build unit #2 right on top of the one you just finished.

Again, its a perfectly fine work flow however we will have to simply agree to disagree that competing in a commercial market you could ever be profitable without some fuzzy math (labor/shop time). A router table and router bits for panel machining alone would sink you. Spacer board and a hand biscuit cutter would sink you. No case clamping would sink you. The gaps alone would be a nightmare. The fact that the sides would be held on by 6 biscuits alone? Of course you could add more sure. Move to the spline (further alignment nightmares). It'd be worth a try for sure but I highly doubt gravity and a rubber mallet are going to get the biscuits/box together tight. Its a house of cards.

Have you ever seen a melamine shop assemble boxes with dowels and a clamp? Its pretty impressive.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tyzxz1HgwBM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sq531yhjcBE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sq531yhjcBE)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nug6WnhJcXY

[John Lanciani]

I find it rather humorous that a guy that tinkers in his basement with a 10" Skil bandsaw and a Ryobi jointer is convinced that the veterans of the grind, some with decades of commercial experience, have it all wrong. :confused:

[Stephen Cherry]

Sounds like good advice for a newbie, but an innovation/creativity killer for a more experienced engineer, to be perfectly honest.





Phil- it's just the opposite. It's about respect and understanding existing methods first. After you have an intimate understanding of the nuance of the work that has been done before you, then you are in a position to innovate, while avoiding past failures.

[Phil Thien]

This thread has taken a turn for the worst! First off I think guys need to step back for a minute and put things into perspective. There's a difference between doing things for a hobby and doing them as a business. I'd guess if Michael wanted to build 200 boxes for his basement he'd get a lot more positive responses. He's not though, he's trying to do them as a business and do them profitably which is a completely different animal. As someone who's done this for a living for about 12 years now I feel there's a lot of "stuff" being thrown around. For instance the idea that subbing stuff out makes you less competitive is utter nonsense. Most successful small shops sub out doors and drawers these days. It's simple economics, you cannot build certain things as quickly to the same degree of quality as a shop that specializes in them. So my building doors and drawers in house actually makes me less competitive, not the other way around. It's not the more work you do the more money you keep, sorry, that's just blatantly false! If Michael has a CNC shop cut the parts he'll make more money, period. It may not makes sense to you if your not doing it for a living, but that's how it is. The fact of the matter is people who make the most money is in this business never touch a tool or a piece of wood. They open a show room and are middlemen.

Those are giant assumptions. The CNC shop is going to markup materials, they're going to charge an hourly rate, they're going to charge for engineering/CAD, and they're going to charge for shipping and handling. Add those costs up/divide by the amount of time it would take Michael to get the materials to that point, and then Michael can decide if it pays for him to cut/band the materials himself. If he has no other work, and no prospects, then it pays for him to perform that work himself. Trust me, when I started my business 25 years ago I was a semester short of finishing-up an economics degree.


Second, the idea that you can make Euro cabinets easily without expensive equipment is again not quite accurate. While it's true that it's easy to make them in your basement, in the context of this discussion we're talking about making things profitably.

I don't even know where to start with that.


And I'll say again, there's a big difference between doing something as a hobby and doing it to make a profit. To be competitive with Euro cabinets you really need at the very least some type of construction boring machine and a decent edgebander, not a little table top jobber that uses a hair dryer, but a good bander that'll apply at the very least 1mm pvc banding. Your just not going to be competitive using a cordless drill and an iron. Can you find an edgebander on e-bay for $2k....sure. Now can you find one that's working that needs little further work for $2k....not a chance. An edgebander is a very complicated machine with a lot of moving parts that have to be completely in sync and working properly. One day it works fine for you, the next....? If your lucky and really shop around you can probably find a decent one, get it shipped to your shop, and have a tech set it up for a little under $5k. Now I'm still not sure what banding this particular project requires so can't say whether or not Michael will need to have the banding outsourced or not? Generally speaking, anything commercial is going to need at least 1mm PVC if not thicker, therefore requiring an edgebander for application.

There is an SCMI ME15 on eBay now in Georgia, 2007 model, $2750. Looks brand-new.


I've seen a lot of those small 2 and 3 man shops go under over the last 12 years including a close friend of mines. It's not nearly as easy as some here seem to think it is. There's what it looks like from the outside looking in, and then there's the reality of doing it. I'm not posting here b/c I'm a pessimistic old curmudgeon that wants to see Michael fail, or b/c I enjoy the argument and stirring things up! I'm taking time to post b/c I've 12 years of getting up every day and trying to make a buck doing it. I've put everything I have into my business and I still come to work not knowing if I'll still be open next month. If you approach this business in the same way you approach a hobby you've already failed. If you bid projects sky high hoping nobody will bid against you, your going to fail. If you think your going to come in and re-invent the wheel every day, your going to fail. The point is not to convince Michael not to do this job, the point is to have him do it and make money at it so he can move on to the next job.

JeffD

So you've done this? You've actually had 1800 +/- parts cut at a CNC shop, that were used to assemble +/- 200 finished pieces? Not talking doors/drawers, talking entire cabinets, you've done something similar?

I'll admit I'm not an expert, and defer to those that have done similar projects, if they can post a picture of themselves standing next to a mountain of cabinets.

[Phil Thien]

I find it rather humorous that a guy that tinkers in his basement with a 10" Skil bandsaw and a Ryobi jointer is convinced that the veterans of the grind, some with decades of commercial experience, have it all wrong. :confused:

So just show me pictures of the CNC-cut jobs you have done, building let's say 100+ cabinets, hiring-out a CNC shop, and I'll shut-up.

Anyone?

[John Lanciani]

So just show me all the CNC-cut jobs you have done, building let's say 100+ cabinets, hiring-out a CNC shop, and I'll shut-up.

I don't do commercial work, and I don't pretend to, either. I know my limitations (high end solid wood one-offs). I think it is a tremendous disservice to the OP to offer advice that flies in the face of the veterans here who do do commercial work. Just because you think you understand how easy a job like this should be does not mean that it is that easy.

[Phil Thien]

I don't do commercial work, and I don't pretend to, either. I know my limitations (high end solid wood one-offs). I think it is a tremendous disservice to the OP to offer advice that flies in the face of the veterans here who do do commercial work. Just because you think you understand how easy a job like this should be does not mean that it is that easy.

I agree. If the others have done this sort of job, where they've hired a CNC shop to cut/band/deliver 1800 +/- parts which they've assembled into 200 +/- finished products, then my advice should be considered in light of that. If the posters above are doers and not talkers, then I owe everyone a huge apology, and I will not hesitate.

Has anyone above actually DONE what they're suggesting Michael do?

[Mark Bolton]

I agree. If the others have done this sort of job, where they've hired a CNC shop to cut/band/deliver 1800 +/- parts which they've assembled into 200 +/- finished products, then my advice should be considered in light of that. If the posters above are doers and not talkers, then I owe everyone a huge apology, and I will not hesitate.

Has anyone above actually DONE what they're suggesting Michael do?

While I dont have a piece count, yes, I have done what you are asking. I have outsourced entire kitchens when I have an extreme budget conscious job that I simply cant compete with making them myself. Not that they are exclusively a budget shop, because they will go to near fully custom as well, but I am setup with, and have outsourced complete jobs with doors, boxes, drawers, stretchers, frames, fronts, the entire lot, through Conestoga. The entire job lands on pallets flat packed and you have at it. This is of course an operation geared to this specifically so of course it doesnt quite compare to approaching a local shop and considering how the parts will be handled, packed, palletized, and protected. Conestoga is geared for that out of the gate because its what they do every day of the week. Many shops make a go of this exclusively but it just doesnt interest me.

But yes, I have done what your asking and stood in my shop with pallets of material, uncrated, and assembled. The parts are all pre-drilled for slides and any needed construction boring is complete.

The shipping/handling issue with a local shop would have to be negotiated as part of the deal and clearly if the shop was going to be responsible for landing the material at your dock and expecting payment they will pack it appropriately.

[Phil Thien]

While I dont have a piece count, yes, I have done what you are asking. I have outsourced entire kitchens when I have an extreme budget conscious job that I simply cant compete with making them myself. Not that they are exclusively a budget shop, because they will go to near fully custom as well, but I am setup with, and have outsourced complete jobs with doors, boxes, drawers, stretchers, frames, fronts, the entire lot, through Conestoga. The entire job lands on pallets flat packed and you have at it. This is of course an operation geared to this specifically so of course it doesnt quite compare to approaching a local shop and considering how the parts will be handled, packed, palletized, and protected. Conestoga is geared for that out of the gate because its what they do every day of the week. Many shops make a go of this exclusively but it just doesnt interest me.

But yes, I have done what your asking and stood in my shop with pallets of material, uncrated, and assembled. The parts are all pre-drilled for slides and any needed construction boring is complete.

The shipping/handling issue with a local shop would have to be negotiated as part of the deal and clearly if the shop was going to be responsible for landing the material at your dock and expecting payment they will pack it appropriately.

Right, I'm wondering if any of you guys have done what I've highlighted in bold.

Ordering a kitchen from Conestoga sounds an awful lot like me putting together 26 Ikea shelving units. I didn't learn much from that.

[Mark Bolton]

Right, I'm wondering if any of you guys have done what I've highlighted in bold.

Ordering a kitchen from Conestoga sounds an awful lot like me putting together 26 Ikea shelving units. I didn't learn much from that.

Hah... good lord, thats exactly what your talking about doing.. outsourcing the machining and assembling ikea (or insert the name of your choice) boxes. Its one in the same regardless of what company you deal with or what the final shape of the item "is to be". Its one in the same. A bunch of parts land, you put part to part b with the bag of doo dad's labeled "bag of doo dads". Only difference in this case is you supply the peripherals yourself.

Its no different for knock down drawer boxes, its irrelevant what the end product is, or who the company is. Its one in the same.

Your off the rails Phil... heh...

[Phil Thien]

Hah... good lord, thats exactly what your talking about doing.. outsourcing the machining and assembling ikea (or insert the name of your choice) boxes. Its one in the same regardless of what company you deal with or what the final shape of the item "is to be". Its one in the same. A bunch of parts land, you put part to part b with the bag of doo dad's labeled "bag of doo dads". Only difference in this case is you supply the peripherals yourself.

Its no different for knock down drawer boxes, its irrelevant what the end product is, or who the company is. Its one in the same.

Your off the rails Phil... heh...

For the record, I have designed and had laser cut and finished (powder coated) thousands of parts used in supercomputing clusters. I have had dealings with multiple laser-cutting shops, and finishers. I've designed these parts, I've seen to their custom manufacturing and delivery, and I've signed the five figure checks for custom steel.

And all you've done is order kitchen cabinets from places that only build kitchen cabinets. You specified the box sizes, and finishes. Pretty much anyone that has ordered a kitchen from Ikea has done what you've done. And none of the places you've had dealings with would produce Michael's display components.

You've never had any truly custom work done.

And I'm off the rails.

[Jeff Duncan]

"I'll admit I'm not an expert, and defer to those that have done similar projects, if they can post a picture of themselves standing next to a mountain of cabinets."

So you admit it but still feel your advice is legitimate and the rest of us are wrong unless someone here has done the exact same job to prove you wrong? I have outsourced parts of large and small projects and the reason I did was b/c it was cheaper than to do it in house. Which is the same reason many small shops outsource parts of projects! And if your OK buying a complicated piece of equipment b/c it looks nice and new in the picture, and hey, I'll bet they even said it runs fine right?.....well I wish you luck....your going to need it!

I'll tell you what, you go start your own woodworking business and come back in a decade and then I'll be more than happy to debate you on the merits of outsourcing and what equipment is appropriate to produce commercial cabinetry. Otherwise this seems to me to be a lot like the trolling that is far too frequent on other sites. If you think I'm way off base with what I've posted that's really all I need to know, and there's no reason for me to go on. I base my views on my experience as well as the shared experiences of others in the trade, and while I may not always be right, I at least try to help others along as best I can. If Michael at least has this information in front of him he can make an informed decision. Just patting him on the back and saying "you can do it" does not mean he can, nor that if he does that he'll make money at it. If that was the case there would be a whole lot more shops still in business.

good luck,
JeffD

[Phil Thien]

"I'll admit I'm not an expert, and defer to those that have done similar projects, if they can post a picture of themselves standing next to a mountain of cabinets."

So you admit it but still feel your advice is legitimate and the rest of us are wrong unless someone here has done the exact same job to prove you wrong?

A custom item, not a drawer or door or kitchen cabinet box that can be ordered from any # of sites. Something produced in volume.

Jeff, there is a big difference between ordering a custom drawer or door, or kitchen cabinet, and designing a product where someone else produces your components. Two different ballgames. In the first case, the drawer better go together. In the 2nd, it is on you if the parts don't fit. In the first case, you can see that outfit's drawers and check their quality before ordering, in the 2nd you won't see the quality until the first batch arrives. I could go on and on, but you guys don't get it, you won't until you've tried it.

[Mark Bolton]

Phil,
Your splitting hairs here and to put it plainly your just being argumentative. And then posting statements which support outsourcing!!. None of this is rocket science, its basic math. Your laser cut parts are no different. Heck.. I design a completely custom counter top, do a cad drawing, email it to the CNC shop an hour away, he sends me back a confirmation, I e-sign, ship it back and poof, the machine makes the part to my spec, to my drawing, done. What in the heck are you getting at? Someone really did you wrong way back then aye?

The simple fact of the matter is in this day and age, outsourcing this box, or your laser cut parts, is easier than ever. Its childs play. Thats why its cheaper. You are sitting here wanting accolades for your laser cut parts and five figure checks and your telling a fledgling business to make 80-100k worth of product with a router table and bits from woodcraft and a biscuit joiner? Talk about polar extremes. Why arent you fabricating your laser cut parts in your basement with a jewlers saw, a few jewlers files, and some home brew powder coating arrangement in your living room? You could be cashing those five figure checks yourself? It really IS just THAT easy.. Or better yet set your neighbor up doing it and skim a little off the top... after all, making them in house has got to be cheaper no? Why a laser when you have a jewlers saw and file in your granddads tool box? Surely theres a guide to home brew powder coating on youtube or ebay no?

Its good this is coming back around to amusing as Im actually giggling while typing this... man o man.

Guess Ill head back out to the shop and chop the cord off the slider and go back to the ol' handsaw...

[John Lanciani]

I could go on and on, but you guys don't get it, you won't until you've tried it.

Oh the irony.:rolleyes:

[Phil Thien]

Phil,
Your splitting hairs here and to put it plainly your just being argumentative. And then posting statements which support outsourcing!!. None of this is rocket science, its basic math. Your laser cut parts are no different. Heck.. I design a completely custom counter top, do a cad drawing, email it to the CNC shop an hour away, he sends me back a confirmation, I e-sign, ship it back and poof, the machine makes the part to my spec, to my drawing, done. What in the heck are you getting at? Someone really did you wrong way back then aye?

How about the time a supplier called me to tell me their Mitsubishi laser that was cutting parts I needed by the following Friday was now down, and they couldn't shift to the Mazak because that was running a job they were already late on. Those parts had to go for finishing when they were done, so I'd be 7-14 days late. Tight deadline, I missed it, it cost me.

I have more stories like that. You have any stories? No, because you've never done it.


Phil,
The simple fact of the matter is in this day and age, outsourcing this box, or your laser cut parts, is easier than ever. Its childs play. Thats why its cheaper. You are sitting here wanting accolades for your laser cut parts and five figure checks and your telling a fledgling business to make 80-100k worth of product with a router table and bits from woodcraft and a biscuit joiner?

Not asking for accolades, just indicating you guys have ZERO experience designing and having fabricated custom parts in volume, and I have volumes of experience.


Phil,
Talk about polar extremes. Why arent you fabricating your laser cut parts in your basement with a jewlers saw, a few jewlers files, and some home brew powder coating arrangement in your living room? You could be cashing those five figure checks yourself? It really IS just THAT easy.. Or better yet set your neighbor up doing it and skim a little off the top... after all, making them in house has got to be cheaper no? Why a laser when you have a jewlers saw and file in your granddads tool box? Surely theres a guide to home brew powder coating on youtube or ebay no?

Its good this is coming back around to amusing as Im actually giggling while typing this... man o man.

Guess Ill head back out to the shop and chop the cord off the slider and go back to the ol' handsaw...

Stop comparing kitchen parts to custom items made in volume. Again, it just indicates your inexperience.

You guys watch an episode of "How It's Made" and think you have it all figured out.

The guy that installs Ikea kitchen cabinets knows everything you guys know.

[Fred Maiman]

Oh the irony.:rolleyes:

The irony is kitchen cabinet installers thinking they know a single thing about manufacturing. That is the irony.

[Mark Bolton]

The guy that installs Ikea kitchen cabinets knows everything you guys know.

Oh, no, I didn't install them, just sold the cabs. ;-)

[Richard Coers]

I'm trying to keep up with the reading, getting tougher with the duking it out today. Maybe a major point not made, or maybe it was on 8 pages of banter, but the major benefit of outsourcing any work or service is FIXED COST. This job will cost $X. I add whatever I want do after the outsourcing..... and deliver a bid. It's doesn't have to be about who can do the work, who does the work, who has machinery, who has the skill, or who has the time. It's about knowing the EXACT cost of the job so you can more easily calculate the ACTUAL cost of the entire job. The corporation I work at, outsources cleaning, lawn maintenance, building maintenance, and security. We know exactly want the cost of security will be for the year on Jan.1. No benefits to pay, no surprises, a fixed amount. Makes budgeting a breeze. When we had our own employees in security, budgets were estimated high because we knew we would have surprises all year. Michael gets a bid for $6,000 to do all the work. Adds in a $1,000 for the work he has to do, bids the job at $8,000. Throws a $1000 in the bank, all the while he is making thousands and thousands of dollars on his guitar work while the boxes are being made. Then add in that he doesn't have to go through a learning process, scrap any parts, buy any new machinery or tooling, especially the 4 new CNC routers with regenerative vacuum pumps and new dust cyclone. Win, win, win.

[Jeff Duncan]

I just want to know Phil....is outsourcing good or bad? You seem to be flip flopping......it works great for you, but everyone else is going to lose money doing it? Are you really saying your that much smarter than everyone else in the room....or is it just coming off that way? I'm not trying to be flip, I genuinely would like to know how you can keep going back and forth on this? So which is it, good....or bad?

Also, are you trying to be funny when you say we're learning from TV and the guy installing Ikea kitchens knows everything as we do? Do you honestly have any idea what happens in a custom shop? I built a curved bar for a restaurant other local shops wouldn't take on, but the installer knows as much as I do? I've built jobs where the architect says he doesn't know how to build it and I have to figure it out. I've had to go on job sites to show installers how to put complicated assemblies together b/c the plans weren't detailed enough. I've had to spend nights designing and fabricating custom hardware for a job where there was nothing off-the-shelf that would work. Yet the installers whose job is to simply install Ikea cabinets knows everything about fabrication I do??? Your statements are insulting and based on a complete lack of understanding of this industry. Maybe we're not all quite as smart as you Phil building your super computers, but you show your own ignorance pretending to be knowledgable about something you obviously have no experience in. My advice is to quit while your behind.

JeffD

[Phil Thien]

I just want to know Phil....is outsourcing good or bad? You seem to be flip flopping......it works great for you, but everyone else is going to lose money doing it? Are you really saying your that much smarter than everyone else in the room....or is it just coming off that way? I'm not trying to be flip, I genuinely would like to know how you can keep going back and forth on this? So which is it, good....or bad?

Also, are you trying to be funny when you say we're learning from TV and the guy installing Ikea kitchens knows everything as we do? Do you honestly have any idea what happens in a custom shop? I built a curved bar for a restaurant other local shops wouldn't take on, but the installer knows as much as I do? I've built jobs where the architect says he doesn't know how to build it and I have to figure it out. I've had to go on job sites to show installers how to put complicated assemblies together b/c the plans weren't detailed enough. I've had to spend nights designing and fabricating custom hardware for a job where there was nothing off-the-shelf that would work. Yet the installers whose job is to simply install Ikea cabinets knows everything about fabrication I do??? Your statements are insulting and based on a complete lack of understanding of this industry. Maybe we're not all quite as smart as you Phil building your super computers, but you show your own ignorance pretending to be knowledgable about something you obviously have no experience in. My advice is to quit while your behind.

JeffD

Outsourcing is good AND bad. Nothing is universally good. There is always room for gotchas, and I've had tens of thousands of dollars worth of equipment that wouldn't go together because of something as simple as a bending allowance.

In a perfect world, the shop that screwed-up would belly-up and recut everything. More typical is "hey, can't you just shim that?" type suggestions, LOL. "No, I can't add the width, they won't fit in the racks then." So they come back with, "can the spacing on the racks be adjusted?" Been there, had those conversations, got the shirt.

You guys are putting a lot of faith in CNC shops, that they will get it right x 200, and deliver product that will not only go together, but be acceptable to the customer. Every single time, without exception.

When you guys order drawers or doors, those parts are guaranteed to work for their intended application. When you're commissioning custom work, you sign on the dotted line accepting the drawings and if you missed something, you accept all the risk. Any rework is on you.

And it may be 2-3 weeks (maybe longer) before you even find out something is wrong.

I'm not saying that assembling everything in-house is a cake-walk. But to tell someone to get the parts cut, to act like nothing ever goes wrong and people don't sometimes lose thousands trying that, well, I'm here to tell you that is unrealistic.

Edit to add: Richard above said (as an example) to get a CNC shop bid for $6k, quote $8k, and profit $2k. So one bid? You're going to go to a single CNC shop, get a bid, and use that as the basis of your bid? You could do that until the end of time and then find out that the shop across town will do it for half the price, and that is why you never win any bids. You could find out the other shop does it for half price, win your bid, and then find out that the other shop didn't include the edge banding and now tells you to go pound sand. That type of stuff happens every single day.

[Michael Dunn]

Wow! So I was out brushing up on my 'fundamentals' today.

Nah! Just kidding. Pandora's Box anyone. Holy crap!!!

To clarify...

200 boxes, fasteners are ok to be seen since he knows he'll save $$$$$.
IF I win the bid I'd have somewhere between 10-14 weeks he says. 50-50% delivery is ok.
I'm not in a basement nor in a garage, nor in a massive commercial production shop where this would be a 'cinch'. It's a 2030sq/ft warehouse with a pretty decent array of power tools. I'm not saying I have ALL of the tools to do this job in the same way the production pros would attack it either.

Let's all just take a deep breath and punch the person next you! JK. JK!!! Seriously. Relax guys. Thanx to all who have defended me. Thanx to all who have brought MANY things to my attention. Things that I did not think about.

I'll post any updates here as to whether I get the job and what I decide to do as far as outsourcing goes.

Thanx guys!!!

[Aaron Berk]

Just for the record, I love this thread. It's been a great read and very informative.

[Mark Bolton]

Edit to add: Richard above said (as an example) to get a CNC shop bid for $6k, quote $8k, and profit $2k. So one bid? You're going to go to a single CNC shop, get a bid, and use that as the basis of your bid? You could do that until the end of time and then find out that the shop across town will do it for half the price, and that is why you never win any bids. You could find out the other shop does it for half price, win your bid, and then find out that the other shop didn't include the edge banding and now tells you to go pound sand. That type of stuff happens every single day.

Phil,
That's just the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. You don't see this often here on SMC but this is one of the times when replies fall back to the days Usenet.

I of course take Richard on his word is 41 years experience whether in the woodworking industry or any other and now because the guy didn't cover every nitpick gotcha moment in his post you, in your desperation, call him out on getting competitive bids?

I mean good lord man, Jeff called you out on it. You really think where a bunch of nimnods out here? I mean really? Who did you so wrong way back in the day dude?

You think Jeff, Richard, Chris, me, anyone, are sitting around our shop placing our five figure orders for materials with no competitive bid process?! Handing the "one" vendor that we get a price from our money with a jar of Vaseline and a pair of rubber gloves?

This reiterates my statement that youve just lost it. You just keep arguing arguing and it just gets worse and worse every time. You've contradicted yourself repeatedly, insulted those of us who are working in this business every day off the week, insinuated we are, well , just not as smart as you I guess.

Your devils advocacy had quite simply just gotten away from you.

To intimate that anyone in business, or even a barefoot housewife who has watched an episode or two of the today show, doesn't implement competitive bidding in their daily life, forget about their business, is nothing more than ludicrous.

I'm sure now you'll have to recount the times you've seen it and of course swooped in with your cape and speedo and saved the company from ruin..

Priceless.. Jeff gave you the clue earlier.. You should've quit while you were behind.

[John Coloccia]

I agree with outsourcing. Any shop with a CNC would love to have this job. With simple parts like this, I could have them drawn and cranked through my CAM in an hour, and then it's just a matter of slap down a sheet, stack the parts, slap down a sheet, stack the parts...

FWIW, I outsource all the time. Not cabinet parts, but other things. I guess that won't count because I've not outsourced melamine parts for divided bins. I HAVE a CNC machine, and I STILL outsource parts that I could easily make on my CNC because it's not worth my time to prepare the materials, figure out work holding, etc. It's cheaper for me to outsource some things and I can be off making money.

[Michael Dunn]

Ummmm... FWIW, the display boxes will be installed in such a manner that only the face and the opening will be visible. See?

[John Coloccia]

So it doesn't look like chip out is a problem on any surface, is it and the only surface that would require hiding fasteners (if you wanted) is the front?

[Phil Thien]

Phil,
That's just the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. You don't see this often here on SMC but this is one of the times when replies fall back to the days Usenet.

I of course take Richard on his word is 41 years experience whether in the woodworking industry or any other and now because the guy didn't cover every nitpick gotcha moment in his post you, in your desperation, call him out on getting competitive bids?


Getting "competitive bids" won't be that easy the first time around. Unless you know how to draw this in CAD in a way that an outfit can immediately use your artwork as input to their quoting system (and in that case, assuming all the risk if there is a problem), they (the CNC outfit) are going to need to make some drawings. The drawing above is a good start, but they're going to need to account for any fasteners and anything else that requires tool changes. They're going to need to account for anything requiring any labor. They're going to want to nest the parts to find out how much they need in materials.

So if you give them the drawing above, they will likely just quote you a sheet cost, and an hourly rate. If you find a cooperative vendor, they may help you develop art that you and they can agree on, that will actually produce 200 nice displays, and a not-to-exceed quote.

But don't ask them for a copy of that work so you can shop it around, they will be offended and likely show you the door. If you want ANOTHER not-to-exceed bid, you will have to start all over with another vendor (unless you can recreate the drawings from memory, and you'd probably need a copy of AutoCAD). And the other shops are still going to ask quite a few questions. They may want to make changes.

And then there is transportation. Someone above said that delivery would be on the supplier, built into their cost. Well, the way these parts would likely be delivered would be wrapped pallets with minimal corner protection. You'd want to work within the delivery radius of the cutting shop, because if they drop those pallets off at a terminal, there is a good chance of shipping damage. We've all seen what Grizzly boxes can look like after being transported one or two states.

So if you are going to work within the confines of the delivery radius of custom CNC shops that have edgebanders, and are willing to crank these out, how many is that? Chicago is a pretty big town, but I doubt you will find that many shops that have all the gear interesting in providing quotes.

Again, this is really quite a bit different than ordering RTA kitchen cabinets and assembling/installing them.

And stop bashing me. Just admit you've never done anything like this before, and there may be a lot more to consider than just ordering some RTA kitchen cabinets and assembling them.

[Phil Thien]

I agree with outsourcing. Any shop with a CNC would love to have this job. With simple parts like this, I could have them drawn and cranked through my CAM in an hour, and then it's just a matter of slap down a sheet, stack the parts, slap down a sheet, stack the parts...


That's great. We've got a guy that is expert at it. Would you be willing to draw them up and send him the files?

Anyone know of shops in Chicago that will cut them?

Maybe problem solved.

OTOH, I look at the new pic posted and I really think it screams table saw. No chipout to worry about anywhere, don't need to worry about hiding fasteners.

[Michael Dunn]

So it doesn't look like chip out is a problem on any surface, is it and the only surface that would require hiding fasteners (if you wanted) is the front?

Exactly. He said he would prefer to have the fasteners not visible. I told him that is not a problem, but that it will affect the price. He seems to care mostly about the cost as this is completely out of his pocket and the cost would have to be offset over the life of his potential contract with the retailers 100 stores. 2 boxes per 100 retail stores. In case anyone forgot, or in case I failed to mention it, or in case anyone's head is spinning, or in case that I couldn't figure out another way to say 'in case' in this sentence.

Just in case,

Hey I had a friend in grammar school who's brothers' first name was Justin. His middle name was... Case. True story. Justin Case Martin.

Mike

[Michael Dunn]

That's great. We've got a guy that is expert at it. Would you be willing to draw them up and send him the files? Anyone know of shops in Chicago that will cut them? Maybe problem solved. OTOH, I look at the new pic posted and I really think it screams table saw. No chipout to worry about anywhere, don't need to worry about hiding fasteners.

That pic was just an installation example. I do believe my potential client wishes to have a bit of a better, more cleaner look and uniformity across the 100 retail stores. Hence the black melamine.

[Phil Thien]

That pic was just an installation example. I do believe my potential client wishes to have a bit of a better, more cleaner look and uniformity across the 100 retail stores. Hence the black melamine.

Well see if John will help you! Seriously, when I got started I got the help of someone that had done it all before, knew how to get the CAD right, knew how to check the bids. We still had problems but 1/100th of what I'd have had trying myself. I still rely on him to double-check everything I do.

So if John is willing, and if you really want an Ikea look, then that would be the best route to go, IMHO. Let someone that has done it before lead you through it.

[Michael Dunn]

I just spoke with my potential client. All previous contact was via email. He's fine with OSB, black melamine or whatever. If they get the contract, it seems to me, at this present time, that I'm the only shop he's speaking to and that it may stay that way. He said if they win the bid were talking late first quarter 2014.

No matter what I decide, I'll be sure to update this thread.

Thanx again guys!

Oh, and if I was a troll. (I'm not saying that anyone called me a troll either), starting this thread would've been my finest moment and I would have been held in the highest esteem among the internets most successful trolls...

But I'm not.

[Andrew Joiner]

I just spoke with my potential client. All previous contact was via email. He's fine with OSB, black melamine or whatever.



Wow, all the passionate discussion about working with melamine is over?

Now do we discuss chip free cutting and edge banding of OSB. :)

[Michael Dunn]

Wow, all the passionate discussion about working with melamine is over? Now do we discuss chip free cutting and edge banding of OSB. :)

I'll say, yes.

[Jeff Duncan]

Looking at those pics it appears the boxes are being used for chain, if the boxes to be fabricated will be used for the same I'm not sure how well melamine will hold up? OSB may end up being a better solution for chain as the finish will wear off over time, but it should still look OK. With black melamine once the finish wears off....:( Of course then there's the issue of how to fasten them together as OSB isn't the greatest for fastener holding. Plywood while the most expensive out of the 3 may be a better option?

Hmmmm, 9 pages and it looks like we're just getting started:o

JeffD

[John Coloccia]

I just spoke with my potential client. All previous contact was via email. He's fine with OSB, black melamine or whatever.

That was going to be my very next question.

re: drawing up plans
Drawing the parts on a CAD system, at least in this particular case, is pretty trivial. What's ALWAYS not trivial is sending it through the CAM system, specifically configured for your specific machine, and integrating with whatever work holding arrangement you have, tools, machine capabilities, etc etc etc. Even if I drew it in my particular CAD system (I use Rhino), my model wouldn't be very helpful unless they happen to use Rhino as well. Even if I exported to Autocad, for example, it never works right. In this particular case, though, the model is so trivial that any experienced CAD user can crank it right out. Four rectangles, and one rectangles with an angled cut. From there, I could setup my particular CNC (if it was big enough, which it's not nearly) to start cutting about 30 minutes later. When you know your equipment, simple jobs like this go very very quickly and reliably.

[Mark Bolton]

AdvanTech (rolling eyes)

[Fred Maiman]

In this particular case, though, the model is so trivial that any experienced CAD user can crank it right out. Four rectangles, and one rectangles with an angled cut. From there, I could setup my particular CNC (if it was big enough, which it's not nearly) to start cutting about 30 minutes later. When you know your equipment, simple jobs like this go very very quickly and reliably.

Keep going, so far you have a bunch of rectangles with no way to join them. Tool change and you can drill the flats, but I'll bet you can't do the edges. We can, but we have to know what we're going to use for banding and which edges are banded, so we can add compensation. Some of the people I work with won't even know or care what they're drawing, they will take their numbers right off a customer's drawing and then it is grip and rip. CAD better be perfect (was that a tool path? did you include cutter comp? better be obvious!). At best you can end up with proud banding, at worst parts won't come together. It isn't rocket science. But the output is only as good as the input, and we get some bad input, and generate output quickly. If there is amistake it can be duplicated hundreds of times, the machines don't know. The problem with doing this in thermo is you need large quantities or the hope of repeat business to get a shop with the right gear interested. There is a sign out in the shop that says "it is a good thing to learn caution from the misfortunes of others." I think the point is to remind operators to be careful. But it applies here too. Oh and I wouldn't use melamine joined with dowels for those boxes any more than I would dispense heavy chain from inside antying you buy at Ikea. Good luck.

[John Coloccia]

I can't physically do the edges on my equipment because it's not large enough and it doesn't overhang (36"X48", but the envelope is a good bit shorter than 48"....maybe 40"). If I really really wanted to accurately drill holes on the edges, with no additional equipment, I would CNC a simple template and use steel drill bushings. That said, if I were really going to do this with just my CNC...which again isn't big enough to even cut one part, but let's pretend it is, I would most likely drill the flats and run a shallow dado for alignment. The assembler can then clamp, drill pilots and screw together. Yes, you have to know what the dimensions are, worry about any edge banding messing up the measurements later on, etc etc...but you have to do that with a table saw too. Once the design is correct, actually inputting and manufacturing something like this is child's play.

It's no different than designing a circuit board. Yeah, if I don't design it correctly, the board house will just blindly make a board that doesn't do what I want it to do. If I design it correctly, when it shows up and I build it, it works perfectly the first time, just as I planned. As a pro, it's my job to NOT make amateur mistakes, like forgetting a copper pour, or not taking edge banding or error stackup into account. This is a very simple job that can be done any number of ways, and I think it's funny that half of us think it's too hard to do by hand, and the other half think it's too hard to do on a CNC! :D

[Jeff Duncan]

John sounds like he has a good grasp on this. In general the way I've worked is you program the CNC and then run a test piece. I use a CNC drill so it's a bit different, but the operation is the same. You program the CNC for the few parts sizes your cutting, (or in my case drilling), and then you run a single set of parts. Once you've created a program it's not a big deal to run one piece or 100. You make sure that first set of parts goes together correctly, if it doesn't you make changes and repeat. I wouldn't supply a CNC shop with a program, I'd provide a detailed plan for each part run and let them do the programming.

Ideally what you want is not a large shop, but a smaller to medium sized shop that has money invested in the CNC and is looking for ways to pay for it;) Those guys will generally be a bit more accommodating dealing with new clients.

JeffD

[Phil Thien]

John sounds like he has a good grasp on this.

I agree. I know the project has taken another turn, but if it restarts down the CNC path and if John has a little time, it would be super-nice for him to provide Michael with at least some tips. Even if Michael draws it out, John may provide some idea if he see any glaring problems. The key is (IMHO) to find someone that has done it before. That can mean the difference between getting your parts cut for $1200, or getting parts that won't work for the same price.

[Aaron Berk]

After looking at the final install pictures, and seeing how the box will be used.

Going back to the original posted question....
I'd build this box in my one man shop with a TS and a RAS. (and hire a grunt)
I still think the RAS would be an excellent choice for...... was it 600 or 800? miters.

With the right blade and a good tune, I get nearly zero chipout.


I'm almost 34yrs old (in Feb), and this particular job would just be considered typical hard work.
Some of it would be monotonous and fatiguing, but non of it so costly that I would lose profit.

Also, if I knew I wouldn't get taken to the cleaners, I'd have no problems subbing out the cut work.
As it stands now, I've never had a job so big that I couldn't get it done in my shop.
And the few times I did call around about pre cut materials, I got sticker shock.

[Ian Wormsbecker]

I suggest having a good cut plan as well for this. You can probably change the amount of profit by hundreds of dollars by selecting raw material sizes and how to cut them up. It might end up that using larger or smaller sheet goods will give you a fair bit more profit.


Ian

[Pat Barry]

I'll take a stab at this.

On one of my first days as an engineer, one of the more experienced guys told me- "Steve, try not to think too much, if you can- copy what somebody else did"..
This is without a doubt the dumbest thing ever said to an engineer. The more experienced guy was obviously NOT AN ENGINEER himself. Probably a just labeled an engineer due to experience on the job. Of course, that was his own MO, and one he was clearly comfortable with. Its simply ridiculous. Please don't pass along this type of wisdom any further.

[Stephen Cherry]

This is without a d boubt the dumbest thing ever said to an engineer. The more experienced guy was obviously NOT AN ENGINEER himself. Probably a just labeled an engineer due to experience on the job. Of course, that was his own MO, and one he was clearly comfortable with. Its simply ridiculous. Please don't pass along this type of wisdom any further.

Pat, it may seem like it's a dumb answer, but it is profoundly true. Almost always there are existing, tested solutions to problems. These should be considered first because it bypasses the opportunity for mistakes. All of the nuances of the problem and shortfalls of previous solutions have been worked through. In many cases it takes lot of time and money to explore ideas, and each new idea is an opportunity for error. And errors can have costs that are beyond comprehension. For example, at that particular job, a "batch" of product could have a value that would be several careers worth of earnings. And any glitch in the equipment or software would generally make a batch unusable. Also, the equipment had the possibility of blowing up, if you were not careful.

So the first thing is to be very careful. Only specify the absolute best components, and if at all possible, recycle software that has been tested over time. Of course, each area has it's own goals, economics, and solutions. Each industry has it's best practices, which should be followed unless there is some compelling reason not to. And of course, there are times when doing something new is the best way to go, but this will always take extra time and money to work through the idea.

And the guy who told me this was an electrical engineer, with a degree from a great school. He's actually a big shot now, and he got to his current position by delivering success over several decades.

Think of it this way, the next time you go over a bridge, would you like to go over a bridge that has been designed drawing from the experience of thousands of years of bridge building, or not?

[John Coloccia]

I used to tell my guys, "Don't build what you can buy, and don't buy what you can steal." Obviously the point is to not try to reinvent, usually rushed and in a couple of days, what it's taken a team of people many many months or years to get right. For whatever reason, software folks seem to have the toughest time of all getting their head around this concept. I don't blame them. I'm trained as a software engineer myself and I hardly even trust my own code from 10 years ago. I know it's solid, but I also know I could do it better THIS time around. LOL...it's a sickness.

[Phil Thien]

Pat, it may seem like it's a dumb answer, but it is profoundly true. Almost always there are existing, tested solutions to problems. These should be considered first because it bypasses the opportunity for mistakes.

So how do innovation and creativity factor into that message?

If we kept applying the same solutions, I'd be typing (on a typewriter) and mailing (via the USPS) this response, and I'd need to hurry because I'd still have to mind the horses as I have to leave early in the morning and the buggy ride would take 1.5 hours.

Don't get me wrong, I see your point. I think the message just goes too far.

[Stephen Cherry]

So how do innovation and creativity factor into that message?

If we kept applying the same solutions, I'd be typing (on a typewriter) and mailing (via the USPS) this response, and I'd need to hurry because I'd still have to mind the horses as I have to leave early in the morning and the buggy ride would take 1.5 hours.

Don't get me wrong, I see your point. I think the message just goes too far.

Innovation and creativity come in when they are going to get you somewhere, and you really can't hold that back. For example, this thread was started because Michael decided he wanted some dinero. That's motivation enough for lots of innovation and creativity. And how you get there in many cases involves "borrowing" from past solutions. Maybe it's human nature to try to improve, and economics that motivate borrowing? It's nothing new though.

[John Coloccia]

So how do innovation and creativity factor into that message?

If you're designing a car, there's no value added in re-designing a bolt if there's a bolt you can buy works. It seems wise to use creativity to solve new problems, not old ones. No electrical engineer in their right mind would design his own op-amp or voltage regulator if there's an off the shelf one that works, nor would such a design likely pass any sort of peer review. Is that stifling creativity? DIY tinkerers reinvent everything from the ground up because it's fun. Pros solve problems and efficiently use every resource they have available to do it.

[Jeff Duncan]

John hit it on the head. Most everything we use today was copied from something else with just a bit of creativity added to it. Look at your keyboard, it's the same layout as mine and everybody else's in this country. Most of the electronics inside your computer, or phone, or TV are generic components that are shared amongst manufacturers. If you take the bodies off of 20 similar sedans you'd be hard pressed to find a lot of differences. There's no sense in re-inventing the wheel every time you build something. You generally build by taking something and adapting it to your needs.

Progress is something that usually happens in small steps. We didn't go from the horse drawn cart to the automobile. There were many small steps in between that were all taking something that existed one step further. When the first steam powered cars were being made in some guys small garage shop, they weren't built from the ground up with newly invented technology. They were built using the latest technology of the day and adapting it to a new purpose. When NASA designs and builds it's newest rocket it will not be some radical departure from anything done before. It will have strong ties to rockets made by German engineers back in WWII, and if you really bring it back you can trace it to Chinese "engineers" over 1000 years ago!

My point being that the statement was not wrong nor "stupid" as someone mentioned, but like many things some peoples understanding, (or lack thereof), of the statement may be flawed;)

JeffD

[Phil Thien]

My point being that the statement was not wrong nor "stupid" as someone mentioned, but like many things some peoples understanding, (or lack thereof), of the statement may be flawed;)

JeffD

Well, the guy that said it was dumb is an engineer, and I'm pretty sure he understands the meaning. I think I'm pretty clear on it, too.

Not all innovation is incremental. Textbooks refer to innovation as being incremental, differential, radical, or breakthrough.

But when you tell someone "Steve, try not to think too much, if you can-copy what somebody else did," you're really saying you don't expect any of the above.

I would no more tell an employee not to think much than I'd tell my young children not to dream much.

But to each, his own.

[Pat Barry]

Any fool knows not to re-design a bolt, that is unless the bolt in question is deficient for the intended purpose -so thats a ludicrous generalized analogy John and you know it. If all you want is copycat this or that you really don't need an engineer. That's the point. The fact that some engineer actually muttered something as was noted by by Stephen, in my mind was taken for much more than it was intended. Probably a very specific incident and not a general statement. Of course a good engineer is always cognizant of the historical precedents, that should go without saying. So if the comment was directed at a new grad or intern, I can follow to a degree, but if this was stated to a seasoned engineer then its a very poor message in my mind. Engineers should be solving problems, applying creativity and engineering essential tools, adding value, not copycating as their main course of action.

[John Coloccia]

Any fool knows not to re-design a bolt, that is unless the bolt in question is deficient for the intended purpose -so thats a ludicrous generalized analogy John and you know it. If all you want is copycat this or that you really don't need an engineer. That's the point. The fact that some engineer actually muttered something as was noted by by Stephen, in my mind was taken for much more than it was intended. Probably a very specific incident and not a general statement. Of course a good engineer is always cognizant of the historical precedents, that should go without saying. So if the comment was directed at a new grad or intern, I can follow to a degree, but if this was stated to a seasoned engineer then its a very poor message in my mind. Engineers should be solving problems, applying creativity and engineering essential tools, adding value, not copycating as their main course of action.

This has turned into an interesting discussion. Question:

You're an engineer...let's say electrical engineer...and you're tasked with plucking a low level signal out of the dirt. Do you:

a) Search around and try to find a COTS device that does what you want, and failing that, talk to other engineers that have done it before and use their work

or

b) Start from scratch and start designing your whizbang chopper/amp/whatever

And as a followup question, how many "seasoned" engineers immediately start down path #2? Most engineers would be far more effective, more efficient, more successful, and ultimately MORE CREATIVE and INNOVATIVE if their initial instinct was #1, because they can concentrate on getting to the goal....and it's usually not. You say copycat as though that's a bad thing. The alternative is change for the sake of change. If it suits your goal, what's the problem? If the goal is to IMPROVE it, then of course you can't copy it, but why change something that works if all you need it to do is work? That's baffling, but it's very common.

Incidentally, every fool does NOT know not to redesign a bolt. I can say for a fact that I've seen PLENTY of whacky and completely unusable fastening systems where a simple bolt would have done the job perfectly well. Complex hinges, latches, etc.

[Phil Thien]

This has turned into an interesting discussion. Question:

You're an engineer...let's say electrical engineer...and you're tasked with plucking a low level signal out of the dirt. Do you:

a) Search around and try to find a COTS device that does what you want, and failing that, talk to other engineers that have done it before and use their work

or

b) Start from scratch and start designing your whizbang chopper/amp/whatever



I vote:

c) Assign it to a tech.

[Chris Fournier]

Wow, here we are discussing creativity and engineering integrity whilst building low cost bins out of OSB! I wonder if the food network forums ever discuss the benefits of gas vs induction cooking while preparing Kraft Dinner?

Let it go. At this point no one is winning any points unless of course we can decide whether you can conceal construction adhesive and staples which we will soon all find out are now perfectly acceptable on this tender.

[Jeff Erbele]

Hey guys!

I'm bidding on a job that may have me building 200 units of a rather simple 'display case'. Without getting into all of the details there will be 4 compartments which are made from 5 identical side pieces.

The dimensions are 22"x22"x3/4" made from two sided black melamine. The thing is that one of the corners is cut off. Say put a mark 10" for the top and 10" from the front and connect the dots and cut at the resultant 45 deg angle. Now do that 1000 times. Literally.

I have the festool track saw and can easily cut 3 pieces at a time. I'd have a helper for this job. If I land it, it'd be a big enough pay date to justify another TS-75 AND MFT-3 if needed. (I loves me some Kool-Aid!!!)

Anyway... What are some other clever ways using say a table saw or a band saw in such a way that I could batch these out in just a few hours preferably with two guys. Aside from using a CNC router that I do not YET own. What other ideas are out there?

Thanx!

In machinist training one of our instructor's favorite saying was, "there are a hundred ways to make a part, but only 10 or less are reasonable solutions and maybe only one or two are right". The reason he said that is we had nearly every standard type machine tool possible and we were trained on all of them so we were well prepared for employment. He told us, chances are great that most shops are not going to have the variety of machines the school had. Our task, given a blue print, sample part, or worn out part was to figure out the best way to manufacture it based on the machine tools available. Further the quantity matters, if one is making one part, a limited production run of 10, 100 or 1,000, or a full production run, maybe with no end.

You have the equipment to make one panel, 3/4 x 22 x 22 with a 45° with acceptable accuracy. If you can make one, you can make a 1,000 or more. The question is how long will it take.
In this case its a job, and "for profit", so the value of your time is a factor.
If it takes one minute to make one panel, that operation will take 16.67 hours.
Stack cut them and reduce the time by half, third, forth, or more.

You are faced with several inter-related questions, time, accuracy, working with existing tools, buying more equipment or farming it out.
Which is more important to you.
If you are looking for justification to buy certain equipment, justify away.

Maybe I missed it in all the posts, but no mention was made of other cuts. Do you need to cut the 22 x 22 from larger stock? What about the other parts?
If so, the debate for a sliding TS is huge.

I've never seen a sliding TS in person, but as I imagine it, one could build a twin fixture for the 45° cuts, each stacked with four (or maybe more) panels. With four panels in each nest, one operation would cut 8 corners and 16.67 hours is reduced to 2.09 hours.

If you are still looking for more ideas and like to tinker, you may be able to clip the 45's on a sliding MS; if you remove the fence and build a fixture to cut the 45 with the miter set at 90. If the fence is even removable depends on the saw. Or buy a used one and whack it up; cut one side of the fence off. Or take the rails off the base and adapt it to your fixture or dedicated use table. Or buy a spare set of rails and tilt mechanism. Yes its most unconventional, maybe hokie if you think so. If nothing else it may steer you to the sliding TS :)