Mass production - Poker Chip Trays

[Chris Hedges]

I dont normally make this many of anything but got a commision that requires me to make 144 poker chip trays. Drilling out 12 or 14 is no big beal but I have no plans to drill 720 holes. Lets hear some ideas on how you guys would approach this.

Chris

[Myk Rian]

Several passes on a router table with long boards and a bowl cutter bit, taking a little off at a time.
Cut boards to length, and apply the end caps.
It's going to take a while to do this project because of the multiple passes on the RT.

You could also make the channels on the table saw with the stock skewed.

[Philip Rodriquez]

Have a CNC shop do the work for you.

[Richard Coers]

My favorite kind of post. I got a "commision", then it's "help me" with the design or construction methods. I'm always curious how you get a commision without knowing exactly how you will make it. How can you price the job to get that commision? Drilling would be the last way I would make these. No surface quality at all.

[David Hawkins]

What do you have for tools and what horsepower?

[Matt Day]

I would get some wide and long stock and use the RT with a bowl bit. Some 8' maple stock for instance will yield you probably 20 or so chip holders per piece after you cut the routed 8' stock to size.

It's not going to be easy no matter how you do it, but that's mass production. I would think drilling on the DP would leave too rough a surface or burns.

Maybe it's just me, but those pin nails stick out like a sore thumb!

[Jeff Duncan]

I've priced more than my share of jobs without knowing exactly how I'll build them. I'll generally have a couple ideas on how I could do it, and just leave enough wiggle room to figure it out if I get it:rolleyes:

As far as how to do this job, there are probably several ways to skin this cat. Drilling would not be something I'd explore. I think my first choice would be running the coves in full length stock on the shaper. Then cut to size and glue up several to make the tray. The sides I'd make a template for and just blast them out on the shaper as well. You could mill all the stock in several hours and then just work on sanding and glue-ups.

Alternatively you could have them done by a shop with a cnc......it just wouldn't be as much fun:D

good luck,
JeffD

[Glenn Kramer]

Hi,
I'd hog out most of the waste with a dado head, them take a few passes on a RT to get the final finish. An indexiing jig on a table saw sled should minimize positioning chores!

Good luck, Glenn

[David Hawkins]

If you don't have a dado head you could set the blade at a 45; make jig and cut out "V" shaped cuts to lighten up the load on the router

[mreza Salav]

Shaper with a power feed, makes them fairly effortlessly; you can do it with a router table with multiple passes too.
You probably don't even need to join your stock, just plane to same thickness as they will be cut to such a small pieces.

[Bill Huber]

I don't know but the bowl bits I have are flat on the bottom and these need to be round.

[david brum]

Just throwing something out there: What about a table saw moulding cutter like this one? (http://corobcutters.com/361flutemoldingknife.aspx) Click on the tiny picture next to the black profile of the cutter. You could cut the long channels pretty quickly and easily, provided that you were diligent about proper hold down, etc. Used moulding heads sell for a song these days, with the Delta heads being preferred.

[Larry Fox]

Shaper with a power feed

+1 This is exactly what I was thinking as I read the post. If you have the spindle length and horsepower for it you might be able to stack several large fluting cutters on top of each other with a spacer between for the separator and cut a long run of them, cut to length, and apply the ends. Should be fairly straight forward. With all due respect to those who suggested it, given the diameter of a standard poker chip I don't think this is the work for a router table - I think you are into shaper territory.

[Mike Goetzke]

If you don't have a dado head you could set the blade at a 45; make jig and cut out "V" shaped cuts to lighten up the load on the router

This is what I was thinking too but maybe use the BS? Also, I don't have one but could you use a coarse paper on an oscillating spindle sander?

[Joe Hillmann]

Using the tools in my shop there are two ways I would try making these.

If I wanted the center piece to be made from a single piece I would rough the blank out with a band saw, then using a jig on the table saw cove cut them to the final size and shape, then sand them with a proper sized sanding drum on the late or drill press.

If I didn't mind joints in the center piece I would do what Myk Rain suggested but I would use two passes on the table saw to cut a V out of the center of the board then do several passes with a cove cut to get the right shape. When doing the cove cut I would make sure the fence was clamped very well, and would use at least two feather boards to hold the board down to the table and another two to hold it to the fence. Once all the covering was made I would cut it into 3 foot pieces, glue 5 of the coves together then using a cross cut sled cut them to width. I would probably do final clean up with a beltsander and a sanding drum

[Mark Bolton]

Find someone with a W&H (or clone) and have a set of knives ground. Simple and fast. If you were drilling these before (shudder) anything will be faster on many levels.

It'd be interesting to know (not that you should divulge) what the price per unit is.

[glenn bradley]

I'm less and less amused by the unhelpful responses I see to posted here by some. Let's not muddy the Creek.

I assume you are not tooled for this or you would not be asking ;-). If you have a tablesaw and a router table I agree on hogging out with a dado stack and finishing up with a router bit. Poker chips can be various sizes so confirm your customers stock before hand. Many casinos use chips that are a bit over 1-1/2" in diameter or at least that is what Google says. Given that approximate size Whiteside makes cove bits in that range. You could request one without the bearing mount or, just grind it off yourself. I would prefer to spend a bit more and get a bit made that has a cutter clear across for a smoother initial surface. PM our member Tom Waltz at Carbide Processors for info on custom bits.

[Chris Hedges]

Thank you for the wonderfully useful response!

[Chris Hedges]

3hp TS, router table with 3.25HP motor. Etc.

[Chris Hedges]

Here are my experiences thus far -

removing meat and using router bit doesn't do it. Router can't be slowed down enough to prevent burning with a bit this size. MLCS is the only company I found with a bit close enough to 40mm and the bit was crap.

Drilling is fairly slow but actually faster then above. Again leaves a less than desirable surface. Even colt maxi cut bit requires a good amount of sanding.

Using any form of cutter used for running cove down the length of the board and then piecing together creates a cross grain situation when glueing on the outer two pieces. Not good for expansion and contraction. Holes need to be cross grain. Even if the cross grain is acceptable, adding in all the cutting and glueing seems like it will only make things slower.

im thinking of piecing this out to a millwork shop and let them figure it out. They can use the CNC!

Thanks for for the replies guys.

chris

[Mark Bolton]

I don't see how gluing together the central piece would create any cross grain issues as compared to running it out of a solid? They will act identically. The suggestions to do a glue up is mainly to break the fluted portion down to a size that could be accommodated by a shaper or small moulder.

By far the best option would be to sub out the fluted portion to a shop that could easily run this for you in long lengths that you could then cut to length and add your ends.

You could however easily do it in a smaller shop setup with a muti pass on a W&H or a single pass on a moulder capable of the full width. Either way would be far simpler than any hogging/drilling/routing/cutting/heavy sanding, option.

All options one will bear heavily ion your margins

[Chris Hedges]

I don't see how gluing together the central piece would create any cross grain issues as compared to running it out of a solid? They will act identically. The suggestions to do a glue up is mainly to break the fluted portion down to a size that could be accommodated by a shaper or small moulder.

By far the best option would be to sub out the fluted portion to a shop that could easily run this for you in long lengths that you could then cut to length and add your ends.

You could however easily do it in a smaller shop setup with a muti pass on a W&H or a single pass on a moulder capable of the full width. Either way would be far simpler than any hogging/drilling/routing/cutting/heavy sanding, option.

All options one will bear heavily ion your margins

Mark - these are boards (trays) 10 inches long and 3 wide. Holes are cut cross grain. If I run a flute down an 8' board and chop it up into pieces to glue together that puts end grain on the long edges. Gluing the side pieces on essentially means gluing long grain to end grain. That'll work until expansion and contraction tears things apart. Hopefully I'm explains myself clearly.

Chris

[Joe Jensen]

I agree with the others here on subbing out the flute work. A CNC would be very easy and fast. You might have only an hour of time in it and spend maybe $200-300. Have them flute long stock, make some extra.

I've done large coves on the table saw and sanding even a small amount is a drag. Doing 100 or more of those trays is NOT something I'd want to sand if I did it on the table saw or with multiple passes on an RT.

I have a good shaper and feeder, the cutter would likely cost $300 or more. You could also go to a molding shop and have them custom cut a knife to do it. I did a large custom cove molding like 20 years ago and the knife was over $100 then plus the labor.

[Bob Vaughan]

Holes are cut cross grain.

Its tedious production work that you should be able to make money on. I did some quick guessing on times and it looks pretty good for selling them for $32.00 each assuming a shop rate of $75.00/hr. You should be able to beat most of the times I've figured in.

Equipment: Good drill press with 6” throw, carbide tipped multi-spur bit, spindle sander plus stock processing equipment.
720 holes at 1 hole per minute = 12 hrs
setup for jigs= 6 hrs
sanding 6 hrs
stock prep 4 hrs
finishing 8 hrs
assembly 4 hrs
cutting outside strips 10 hrs
50 hrs

150 bf 8/4 stock @ 4.00 $600.00
tooling $250.00
Shop labor (50 hrs @ 75.00 3750.00
Total 4600.00
Per unit 32.00

[Stephen Cherry]

Mark - these are boards (trays) 10 inches long and 3 wide. Holes are cut cross grain. If I run a flute down an 8' board and chop it up into pieces to glue together that puts end grain on the long edges. Gluing the side pieces on essentially means gluing long grain to end grain. That'll work until expansion and contraction tears things apart. Hopefully I'm explains myself clearly.

Chris

Am I seeing the picture wrong? It looks like the holes are cut with the grain and the sides are pin nailed (and glued) onto the end grain. The ends have CR Onsrud inverted pin router with a spiral bit written all over them. The grooves, maybe a magic moulder custom ground profile to a little over half the hole? Or a whiteside core box bit?

Of course the easy thing would be to hire this out, if there is someone available. If I were setting up in the business of making doo dads like this, I would buy the biggest cr onsrud pin router I could get my hands on. These come up used, sometimes for penny's on the dollar, and the big ones can put more hp into a spindle for the least amount of money of any machine I can think of.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TI18ZWaG1_c

[Chris Hedges]

Its tedious production work that you should be able to make money on. I did some quick guessing on times and it looks pretty good for selling them for $32.00 each assuming a shop rate of $75.00/hr. You should be able to beat most of the times I've figured in.

Equipment: Good drill press with 6” throw, carbide tipped multi-spur bit, spindle sander plus stock processing equipment.
720 holes at 1 hole per minute = 12 hrs
setup for jigs= 6 hrs
sanding 6 hrs
stock prep 4 hrs
finishing 8 hrs
assembly 4 hrs
cutting outside strips 10 hrs
50 hrs

150 bf 8/4 stock @ 4.00 $600.00
tooling $250.00
Shop labor (50 hrs @ 75.00 3750.00
Total 4600.00
Per unit 32.00


$45. Good breakdown though.

[Chris Hedges]

Am I seeing the picture wrong? It looks like the holes are cut with the grain and the sides are pin nailed (and glued) onto the end grain. The ends have CR Onsrud inverted pin router with a spiral bit written all over them. The grooves, maybe a magic moulder custom ground profile to a little over half the hole? Or a whiteside core box bit?

Of course the easy thing would be to hire this out, if there is someone available. If I were setting up in the business of making doo dads like this, I would buy the biggest cr onsrud pin router I could get my hands on. These come up used, sometimes for penny's on the dollar, and the big ones can put more hp into a spindle for the least amount of money of any machine I can think of.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TI18ZWaG1_c

yes. Holes are cut cross grain. Sides are glued long grain to long grain. The short length of the tray is end grain.

chris

[Stephen Cherry]

yes. Holes are cut cross grain. Sides are glued long grain to long grain. The short length of the tray is end grain.

chris

It looks the opposite in the picture, where the grain runs along the hole. Isn't the grain running the length of the hole in the picture?

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=274455&d=1383660591

[Jeff Duncan]

I respect Bob's opinions but would question a couple of his estimates. I think 1 hole per minute is maybe a bit optimistic. Even assuming a sharp bit and a fast change jig setup that just seems optimistic to me?

Second, sanding is only given 30 seconds per hole.....again I think that's optimistic as well. Assuming you have an industrial spindle sander than can run for hours at a time sanding the mill marks out of a hard wood. And even if you only needed a paper change say every 100 pieces, (very optimistic sanding hardwoods like maple), changing the sleeves will take you probably 5 minutes or more each time. So you have less than 30 seconds per hole/groove and you still have the ends tops and sides?

If it were me I would probably double both of the above estimates depending of course on the type of quality your looking to achieve.

Lastly I agree with Stephen that what you have in the picture is opposite than what your describing! In the picture the wood is long grain perpendicular to long grain which is what your saying you don't want to do. There's no way the short side of the tray is end grain in that picture, looking at the growth rings it HAS to be against the darker sides. Those "holes" are cut with the grain, not across it. Have you done one in the configuration your talking about to show your client? If not you MUST do this as it's going to be a completely different look! You don't want to deliver 100+ trays only to have them rejected b/c they're not the same as what you showed them;)

good luck,
Jeffd

[Stephen Cherry]

Lastly I agree with Stephen that what you have in the picture is opposite than what your describing! In the picture the wood is long grain perpendicular to long grain which is what your saying you don't want to do. d

Thanks, I was scratching my head on this. I'm wondering if this were actually cut across the grain if it would leave the grain too short where the top could be easily broken.

[Joe Hillmann]

If you are drilling these you don't need to drill 720 holes. If you clamp two of them together, face to face, and drill the holes on the joint every hole you drill will get you 2 coves. So you only have to drill 360 holes + a few extra for mistakes.

[Richard Coers]

Its tedious production work that you should be able to make money on. I did some quick guessing on times and it looks pretty good for selling them for $32.00 each assuming a shop rate of $75.00/hr. You should be able to beat most of the times I've figured in.

Equipment: Good drill press with 6” throw, carbide tipped multi-spur bit, spindle sander plus stock processing equipment.
720 holes at 1 hole per minute = 12 hrs
setup for jigs= 6 hrs
sanding 6 hrs
stock prep 4 hrs
finishing 8 hrs
assembly 4 hrs
cutting outside strips 10 hrs
50 hrs

150 bf 8/4 stock @ 4.00 $600.00
tooling $250.00
Shop labor (50 hrs @ 75.00 3750.00
Total 4600.00
Per unit 32.00

No time allowed to build the jigs for the drill press, table saw, and router. Way short on sanding time (you'll need to sand with at least 3 grits, maybe more. Your time will be used up just changing and cleaning sleeves), way short on assembly time (144 trays in 4 hours is only 1.7 minutes per tray. Remember you will have to be moving parts, gluing, pinning and loading the nail gun), You've only allowed 3.3 minutes per tray for finishing, not many coats of finish and scuff sanding for that amount of time. Once again, remember how you are going to have to stack and move all these trays. You'll need a lot of area to lay them out to dry. You'll need trays or bins to handle all the parts. Does tooling include sand paper sleeves, sleeve cleaner block, sheet sandpaper, glue, and finish? Then add in a $1,400 drill press to get the 6" travel.

[Stew Hagerty]

I didn't notice where you said what the radius of the slots are.

As some have mentioned before, I would hog out the majority of the material either with a dado set or the angled "V" cuts that Dave mentioned:
If you don't have a dado head you could set the blade at a 45; make jig and cut out "V" shaped cuts to lighten up the load on the router

Then, unless you can find the right size round-nose or core-box bits (Whiteside makes a 1" radius), I would have one made. Include the cost in your tooling expense.

[Mel Fulks]

I agree with Mark ,run them in long lengths on shaper or moulder .With KILN dried wood the movement would not be an issue especially in modern climate controlled buildings . If you have to sub that part buy the corg knives on line ,specify M2 steel and specify knives will not be accepted without 5 degree side clearance,some suppliers are lazy about side clearance and without it you will be sanding out burns. Who would want to look at the color shift on the exposed end grain if you run them in the other direction?. And who wants to do all that sanding ? Only issue I see is most moulders only do 8 inches ,but someone near you might have a 12. Shaper would be my preference anyway ,makeing two passes. BUY the knives ,and take them with you .Dont let sub make the knives ,they will charge you ,then keep them.

[Chris Hedges]

I promise you that all is as I have described. I built the ones in the picture! Grain looks totally different when you cut holes in it.

Chris


It looks the opposite in the picture, where the grain runs along the hole. Isn't the grain running the length of the hole in the picture?

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=274455&d=1383660591

[Mark Bolton]

I'm of the belief that the cross grain would not be a problem even with the thin material at the bottom of the flute however if these are actually drilled cross grain (and I believe Chris, as he made them) they will have to be made the same way. Complicates things a bit as far as ease of making.

I would also agree that the timeline posted for making them is extremely optimistic but..

Will be intersting to hear the numbers on the CNC option.

[J.R. Rutter]

Flat sawn grain with growth rings cupped up will give that cross-grain pattern.

Personally, i would be looking for a CNC shop who could flatten and cut flutes in a table-top sized piece. (I might even try to use a thin maple bench top as raw material.) Then cut the parts to size after the whole thing is shaped and sanded. The flute pattern can be varied to allow for a saw kerf every 5 flutes.

If you have the time and a high tolerance for dust, then a router jig that lets the router slide handheld over the top would be how I would do it in house. Basically, you make a trough that a plunge router base fits into, and make a couple of indexing strips - like some square sticks with holes drilled at the flute spacing - and use a dowel pin to locate the trough every time you move it.

[Mel Fulks]

The most time consuming part of the job is sanding and nothing is going to leave as good a surface as a m2 corg knife. That will make sanding easy. I would tell customer changing grain direction is going to work better and look better .

[J.R. Rutter]

The most time consuming part of the job is sanding and nothing is going to leave as good a surface as a m2 corg knife. That will make sanding easy. I would tell customer changing grain direction is going to work better and look better .

Agree - if the long grain is possible. Might not even have to sand the profile other than to scratch it for finish. Also, CNC routers designed for solid wood can run moulder heads and operate with a horizontal arbor. Not nearly as common as a simple point to point though.

[Chris Hedges]

The most time consuming part of the job is sanding and nothing is going to leave as good a surface as a m2 corg knife. That will make sanding easy. I would tell customer changing grain direction is going to work better and look better .

Do the opposing grain direction cause no concern? How do I effectively glue end grain to long grain?

chris

[Myk Rian]

Do the opposing grain direction cause no concern? How do I effectively glue end grain to long grain?

chris
Gorilla glue and pin nails.

[Mark Bolton]

IMO there is a slight risk due only to the very thin portion at the bottom of the flutes but in all honesty with such a small item I would likely just glue it and go.

Cross grain situations are most definitely an issue but look at all the situations where it works. End nosing on a stair tread? These are glued on every day of the week and were talking a 12" tread width. A wide top rail on a cabinet door, again, every day.

It's something to be cautious of but as with anything, can be completely overthought.

[Mark Bolton]

Gorilla glue and pin nails.

Whoa.. How in the heck would you handle the cleanup in all the chip flutes? Yikes. Sounds like a nightmare to me.

[Stephen Cherry]

I promise you that all is as I have described. I built the ones in the picture! Grain looks totally different when you cut holes in it.

Chris

Wow, I guess you learn something new every day.

[Mel Fulks]

Just spot gluing and using several headless pins would be fine after a short clamping period.