Filling pores on porous wood before finishing?

[Doug W Swanson]

Hey all,
I've got a request for some bottle openers out of Padauk and a bowl from China Berry. Since these items will be used, what should I use to fill the pores on the wood before I apply a finish?
The bottle openers will probably be finished with spray lacquer but I will most likely use a mineral oil/bees wax combo on the bowl.

I make a bottle opener out of Padauk a while back I bet I used about 6 coats of spray lacquer on it and you can still see the pores on it. I even tried sanding the poly back some and that didn't help.

Any suggestions?
Thanks!

[Dale Winburn]

I use 2 or 3 coats (until the pores are filled) of thin CA glue on bottle stoppers then re-sand while still on the lathe. You can then finish with lacquer or whatever including CA glue.

[Harry Robinette]

Doug
I see you two got back from Turning 2013 in Cincy.It was great talking to you and your wife also.What I do is put some oil on my sand paper and sand it till the pores are filled with the dust and oil.Then let it set till dry, sand the extra off with 220 or so and finish as usual the pore color is then the same as the wood. Been working for me for a few years now.Oh ya make sure you use a drying oil.

[Jon Nuckles]

I turned a table from padauk and filled the pores with shellac while it was still on the lathe. Much easier than using elbow grease!

[Russell Neyman]

Ditto on the CA and using shellac, too. I've even used cabinetmaker's pore filler. It all depends on the wood you're dealing with.

[Doug W Swanson]

Doug
I see you two got back from Turning 2013 in Cincy.It was great talking to you and your wife also.What I do is put some oil on my sand paper and sand it till the pores are filled with the dust and oil.Then let it set till dry, sand the extra off with 220 or so and finish as usual the pore color is then the same as the wood. Been working for me for a few years now.Oh ya make sure you use a drying oil.

Harry, are you sure it was me you met in Cincy? :) Must have been another Doug!

Thanks for the replies. Can CA be used in a bowl? I'm not too worried about it for the bottle openers but I'd be concerned about using it for a utility bowl....

[Doug W Swanson]

One more thing: since I generally apply finish once the bowl is done (tenon turned off and bottom sanded) I assume I would need to spend a fair amount of time sanding off the lathe. Can the shellac method be done off the lathe?

[Jon Nuckles]

You can fill the pores with shellac off the lathe, but it is a LOT more work and takes much longer. You are basically doing a french polish technique, but the lathe is doing all the work for you. If you make a ball out of tee shirt material and charge it with shellac, you can slowly move it against the spinning turning to apply the finish. Keep adding shellac to the ball and, when it starts to drag or stick, rub a few drops of oil on the ball to lubricate it. You'll have to do a few coats with rest periods in between for the shellac to dry. The shellac shrinks when it dries and that leaves the pores below the level of the finish again. When you get enough finish applied, you can sand it back to level it out. This worked great for me because the padauk table I made was large and I was willing to leave it on the lathe while finishing. The process might be impractical for multiple smaller items because of the need to rest between coats, perhaps as long as overnight for a heavy coat. Here are before and during pics of the process (I gave the table away before taking an "after" shot. Also know that most of the color change came from a BLO coat before the shellac, and please excuse the poor quality iPhone photos):

274303274302

[Doug W Swanson]

Thanks for the info, Jon. If I do most of the bowl (with the exception of the bottom where the tenon is) with this technique, can I finish off the bowl bottom the same way after I turn the tenon off? Or with the transition between the two applications be noticeable?

[Russell Neyman]

Can CA be used in a bowl? I'm not too worried about it for the bottle openers but I'd be concerned about using it for a utility bowl....

Filling in pores gives the impression that you intend to createis a decorative vessel, rather than an everyday salad bowl. But you can overcoat CA with.other finishes if you sand the ca and then apply shellac first. In this case you're using the CA as a pore filler.

[Jon Nuckles]

You can and in fact I did finish most of the top and bottom of the table off the lathe. It just takes more work. Shellac melts into the previous layers and is easy to blend. You can also topcoat it with almost anything else.

[robert baccus]

Lacquer and sanding sealer are designed to be used together--shellac is really a good product but is stone age when compared to a good thick bodied SS. 2 coats brushed on straight are equal to 12 coats of lac. or shellac and sands/fills much better. I use 3 gallons of SS for every gallon of lac. applied. Get your piece perfect (sanding) with SS before applying your final finish. Cars, guitars and pianos usually get this combination.

[David C. Roseman]

Lacquer and sanding sealer are designed to be used together--shellac is really a good product but is stone age when compared to a good thick bodied SS. 2 coats brushed on straight are equal to 12 coats of lac. or shellac and sands/fills much better. I use 3 gallons of SS for every gallon of lac. applied. Get your piece perfect (sanding) with SS before applying your final finish. Cars, guitars and pianos usually get this combination.

Robert, is there a particular brand of SS that you recommend for this? Do you tint it for darker woods, and if so, type of tint? I ask because I've had uneven experiences with various brands in the past doing flatwork.

David

[Doug W Swanson]

Filling in pores gives the impression that you intend to createis a decorative vessel, rather than an everyday salad bowl. But you can overcoat CA with.other finishes if you sand the ca and then apply shellac first. In this case you're using the CA as a pore filler.

I'm making the bowl out of China Berry. Since it's very porous (think Oak), I'd be afraid that if I just applied a finish without filling the pores, then bacteria, water, oil, etc could easily get into the pores and either ruin the bowl or get someone sick. I don't normally worry about this with other bowls I've made but the China Berry is very porous...

[robert baccus]

David, there are many SS types out there including shellac. The problem is most do not act as a filler and are hard to sand. The best I can find is Mohawk heavy bodied SS. It does everything right. They make several types of SS so be specific. It sands like chalk and so fills great. I wouldn't recommend a stain with this because the thickness will vary as it fills in low spots ect. Perhaps a stain under it with careful sanding--a sandthrough would look bad. I'm working on 2 large CB bowls now--love the stuff.

[David C. Roseman]

Thanks, Robert. That's good to know. Some I've tried in past years have tended to be a bit gummy during sand out, even pulling out of the pores.

I would like to find something that tints evenly before application for filling dark woods, like Black Walnut and Rosewood.

David

[Michael Kellough]

The Mohawk heavy SS sounds great if you want to top-coat with lacquer.
"Not recommended for use under acrylics, shellac-based products, catalyzed topcoats or urethane finishes."

[robert baccus]

The Mohawk SS is compatible with all lacqers including precatalyzed lac. and wipe on poly but I am ignorant of the other finishes.

[John Keeton]

Just reading the MSDS on the Mohawk heavy SS is a bit scary! I would prefer to stick with shellac as a sealer - much less toxicity, albeit a bit more work.

My intent is not to start a debate on the health issues, but one does need to take the time to review this type of information prior to use.

[Mike Cruz]

Since this thread has already addressed the OP's question and run its course, I've got another question:

Why are people so concerned about filling pores? That is, after all, part of what makes that wood different than other woods. Cherry and walnut look very much alike (especially after years and years of sun exposure). But walnut has open pores and cherry is tight grained. Personally, I like that some woods have open pores. It adds texture.

[Jon Nuckles]

Mike,
Check #14 above as to why Doug (the OP) wants to fill his pores. I fill my pores only if I am going for a high gloss finish. The pores in a very open grained wood like the padauk I used for the table shown above detract, imo, from the traditional french polish look I was going for in this piece. To each his own, and it certainly isn't something I would do on every piece, but sometimes a high and even shine is kind of nice.
Jon

[Prashun Patel]

If you fill the pores and overcoat with any kind of film, you will likely rub most of it off over time as you wash and rewash the bowl. This is the reason I believe most edible bowls are not film-finished. Rather, it might be more appropriate to just cover it with an oil or (my favorite) oil/varnish. These finishes are more forgiving to washing with soap and water (which is the best way to keep the bowl safe). When the finish starts to dull, resanding and/or refinishing for appearance sake are then quick and easy.

The other nice thing about an oil finish is that you can even spritz it with ethanol or another sanitizing agent like Lysol (and then wash it off) if your SWMBO wants more peace of mind.

Last, I'm not so sure open-grained woods are significantly more susceptible to microbial growth than closed-grain species. Even closed-grain species are porous enough to foster microbial growth.

[robert baccus]

John, I agree with checking msds sheets ect. I'm a big label reader even in the food stores. I've warned my friends about the toxic fumes in lac.,SS and most finishes and especially solvents. When I started this costly vortex I had been spraying cars off and on for years and I promply added a 32" thru wall exhaust fan inches from my lathe. One for dust removal which is bad stuff but also for fume removal. I finish on the lathe for that and other reasons. Also practically ignored is the danger of fume explosion while spraying finishes. Two explosions killed 4 kids doing like me spraying cars in borrowed service stations by a switch spark. Only the slab was left. Face masks and dust collectors do nothing to prevent this. A fan at the front door adds positive pressure to aid the vacuum created. One pal was so taken by this he put two 48" fans in the wall behind the lathe. But he lost 2 cats that way.

[robert baccus]

John, your comment on MSDS is spot on. Got to checking various concoctions in my shop, maybe 6-8 and now I'm afraid to walk through the place. Everything in there will kill you or make you turn purple. Did you check out DNA as well. I guess all solvents are bad news--acetone will dissolve most plastics. Don't ask me how I know this.

[Mike Cruz]

Denatured Alcohol is bad for me? Must be why my hand is slowly shriveling off...

[robert baccus]

Mike, I agree variety is the spice of life and different woods lend themselves to techniques to achieve unique results. Traditionally a pore filled perfectly leveled finish rubbed back to a semiflat finish (also called a piano finish) was the thing on high dollar furniture. The "French polish" was to only practical way to do this until lacquer was invented to improve on shellac. FP is probably the most beautiful clear finish to this day. Intense labor and time was required as well as cost and one of your toddies would wipe it out, that rot arm stuff. Sean Connery was"discovered" doing French polish on caskets back in the fifties. Probably good at it.

[Mike Cruz]

Understood, Robert. And I DO appreciate a nice finish. And I DO respect what it takes to achieve such finishes. I just find it akin to dyeing wood... I like wood to be natural. Not saying that dyeing can't be pretty, or bring out features in wood, or add depth, or add dimension. Walnut has pores. That is not a bad thing, but it seems to be perceived as such. Conversely, pores can add depth and texture to wood that really dense close grained wood doesn't have.

[John Keeton]

We all will have different views on the topic of appropriate finishes, and one's style of turning is certainly a factor, along with intended use of the object. I am not sure wood species necessarily is the determining factor.

My personal thoughts are that functional culinary items should not have a film finish and rather a renewable finish such as walnut oil/wax/etc. Some art pieces, as a result of the design and/or wood used in its creation, have a more rustic flavor and benefit from a satin or matte finish. In that instance, filling of the pores would not be necessary nor even perhaps desirable.

On the other hand, for many of my cremation urns, a high level of finish is required. They are not inexpensive, and the folks viewing them are used to viewing highly finished and polished caskets. In addition, many of them have leaf applied, or some other form of similar embellishment, and a good result requires a flat finish, i.e., pores filled.

I will say the vast majority of my sales have a high gloss finish, but that may have more to do with my personal style and market venues than anything else. On the other hand, recently my taste seems to be drifting toward more of a satin or matte finish. As a result, I find that my pieces are more of a style that seems consistent with that type of finish. Next month, or six months later, who knows what whim may surface!

So.....it all depends on ones' perspective, style of turning and personal desires - or, more serious factors like the day of the week, the weather....:) I doubt you guys are going to agree on much more than that!;)

[Mike Cruz]

Actually, John, that I certainly CAN agree on! It really comes down to personal style and taste. And those seem to change with, as you say...the weather.

A lot of folks don't like to see high gloss on "pored" woods. It bothers their "eye". Much like, dare I bring it up, the "tuck". ;)