feeder operation on shaper

[Graham Hutchinson]

I just installed a Steff 2038CI feeder on my shaper and have a few questions on operation. This feeder has tracks not rollers.

From what I have read, toe-in should be between 1/4" and 1/2". Is this correct over a roller body 18" long?
How much downward pressure should be applied to the stock?
Where should the feeder be positioned in relation to the cutter? i.e., how much of the feeder should be on the in-feed side of the cutter and how much on the out-feed side?
How close should the feeder be to the fence?
Are there any differences in setup for a climb cut?

My shaper is a Jet 25X which does not have a very big table so I machined a piece of 1" steel to mount the feeder off one corner of the shaper. Here are some pictures.

Thanks in advance for your help.

Graham

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[David Kumm]

Wax the table and the down pressure doesn't have to be a lot. Set the wheels so they move up 1/4" or so and play with some test pieces. I don't run a track but would think the angle should only be slight and 1/3 of the track on the infeed and 2/3 on the outfeed but again, run some tests with different lengths and different cutters and get a feel before you start wrecking real projects. you will develop a feel for speed and cut quickly. Distance to the fence is variable but closer is better than farther away. A few swipes with some parafin on the table is a big deal. Let us know how you like the track. It is supposed to be better with short pieces but I use an outboard fence for those anyway. Dave

[Stephen Cherry]

One thing to remember about the pressure is that the difference in pressure between 1/4 inch of deflection and 1/2 inch is not double because the springs have pretty good pressure with any amount of deflection. What I have noticed is that with too much deflection, the wood can slow down or stop as it comes up to a roller. It seems like the track would help this though.

And as David said, WAX, and test first. With the climb cut, I am assuming you are using an outboard fence- I would lower the cutter out of the way, and get the feeder set up exactly right so that it can move the wood with authority. Then look at what you could be shooting in to. If you have a mistake, you want to shoot a piece of plywood, or something, rather than the neighbors chihuahua. If you do this wrong, the wood shoots out like a canon.

[Graham Hutchinson]

Thanks guys. It seems to be difficult to gauge the vertical deflection with the track system. The vertical adjustment wheel is noticeably free when the head is taking its own weight. I think I'll one full turn more, two more etc., so I can get a feel for things. Can you point me to any outboard fence designs?

[Peter Quinn]

Different people have different approaches to setting up a feeder, you may want to try different set ups and use caution and test pieces until you are confident of your adjustments . I like about 1/4" to 1/2" toe in as you mentioned, less on small parts with a split fence (too much toe in seems to direct small parts in odd directions with wheel feeders, not sure you if you will see this effect or not with tracks), more toe in on larger stock whose mass might want to help push it off the fence. I use about 1/4" down pressure. On a wheel feeder i just set the wheels 1/4" below my stock thickness, the track feeder looks like the center wheel is set lower like a tensioner, not sure how to gauge the depth on that one. I like the feeder roughly centered on the cutters arc TDC, maybe the center just to the indeed side of TDC for small stuff, a bit past TDC on longer stuff. I get in as close as possible to the fence for a given cutter, I always spin the cutter with the power off to make sure nothing is hitting anything is should not. If possible I turn the cutter out of the way and dry run the feed path before getting the cutter involved, if not possible its a test piece and a cautious stance out of the kick back path. The suggestion to practice with the feeder sans cutter is a good one.

Climb set up? Its pretty much the same, just keeps the hair on the back of my neck standing up. Be real certain not to stand in front of the projectile side of a climb cut or to let anyone else walk into that path. When they get loose its ugly, and given the wrong circumstances a feeder will not always keep the stock from shooting out, particularly small parts being climbed, which I never recommend….didn't say I never do it, I just don't recommend it.

[jack forsberg]

Climb set up? Its pretty much the same, just keeps the hair on the back of my neck standing up. Be real certain not to stand in front of the projectile side of a climb cut or to let anyone else walk into that path. When they get loose its ugly, and given the wrong circumstances a feeder will not always keep the stock from shooting out, particularly small parts being climbed, which I never recommend….didn't say I never do it, I just don't recommend it.

the trick to climb cutting is chip limiting tooling IMO. I would never recommend it be done free hand . Didn't say i never do it, i just don't recommend it ether. some times its the only way to mill parts though.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0nim3xzDz4

jack
English machines

[Peter Quinn]

the trick to climb cutting is chip limiting tooling IMO. I would never recommend it be done free hand . Didn't say i never do it, i just don't recommend it ether. some times its the only way to mill parts though. jack English machines

Well, that had the hairs on my neck standing up. I've done it plenty on a router table, but never tried it on the shaper. Is there no way to flip the cutter and bearing and mill down hill with those pieces, then flip back and mill down hill into the curves? We do that with african mahogany at work, its not quite like STK cedar but it has its challenges when shaping. Loved the video, nice use of the big jig, even if it were to take off your hands aren't headed for the cutter.

[jack forsberg]

Pete the cuter is set up to cut down hill on the curve. its the flat straight cut that wants to tare out no matter what way you come at it. Now if you have 3 machines no need to flip the cutter but that is how i mill full round treads(2 machine apposing rotation). the cutter was ungraded to show but i use a ring guard with this set up. this was on the small spindle moulder(not any safer but small and under powered) but the wadkin in the mill shop is more suited to hard wood. for real figured wood i have a rub collar on the Wadkin bobbin sander.

Like I and you said i do not recommend it.:p





Well, that had the hairs on my neck standing up. I've done it plenty on a router table, but never tried it on the shaper. Is there no way to flip the cutter and bearing and mill down hill with those pieces, then flip back and mill down hill into the curves? We do that with african mahogany at work, its not quite like STK cedar but it has its challenges when shaping. Loved the video, nice use of the big jig, even if it were to take off your hands aren't headed for the cutter.

[Jeff Duncan]

Some good advice here already, I'm going to disagree with David just a bit though, not sure if he mistyped or we disagree, but I put 2/3 on the infeed and 1/3 on the out. The infeed is where you need more support as that's where the force is being applied. Having the extra contact area in front helps prevent kickback. Once the piece moves past the cutter you don't need as much feeder. So on a 3 wheel feeder 2 wheels in front of the cutter and one on the outfeed. Toe-in I usually keep to within about 1/4"- 3/8" or so. You don't want too much as it's just going to put undo pressure against your fence which doesn't help anything. All you need is a slight amount to overcome the cutters tendency to push the stock away.

Lastly you don't really need anything fancy for an outfeed fence. I use a piece of 1/2" applyply I had lying around. I sanded and waxed one edge and just clamp it to the top when I need it. You can go a step farther and cut some slots in the ply to bolt it to your top making it a bit easier to adjust. It's really up to you to decide what works for you.

good luck,
JeffD

[Mark Bolton]

the trick to climb cutting is chip limiting tooling IMO. I would never recommend it be done free hand . Didn't say i never do it, i just don't recommend it ether. some times its the only way to mill parts though.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0nim3xzDz4

jack
English machines

Jack,
Every time I see one of your videos I'm of course envious of your machines but even though it's not my style your work and attention to detail on that project is really impressive.

Super nice work. Inspiring.

[David Kumm]

Jeff, disagreeing with me is probably the safe way to go in general. I use a four wheel most of the time but my three wheels have a space after the first wheel that I center over the cutter. I've found that I tend to guide the stock on the infeed side somewhat and can push the stock to help it through a tough cut. If it hangs up on the outfeed there is no way to really pull it through easily so I keep the extra wheel on that side. Only when using the stock fence ( outboard is different ) and especially when the infeed is recessed from the outfeed to keep the stock from sniping at the end. I run the three wheel for vertical shaping against the fence and it also depends on the profile and where the best support is. Now a six wheel would eliminate the problem. Just need a hoist. Dave

[jack forsberg]

after hearing all the others comments here i am going to ask the question. Is a track feeder suited to a sharper? seen them on a band saw and a jointer but how are they to straddle the cuter? I tend to like the 2 wheels on the out feed as well because the edged/finished work piece can be rocky but its not a rule.

[Mark Bolton]

Graham,
One think I will add with that shaper and fence (we have a similar style fence in the shop), is to be very carefull with your setups especially if your feeding something that requires a lot of toe-in. The outbound adjustable fence on that fence assembly has an Achilles heel in that the fence is mounted and aligned by a single central cap screw and very small set screws. That feeder,
especially the track, will flex and even strip/break that very small connection point.

I would advise you to check those small set screws and make sure they are only protruding out the back of the fence as little as possible. They are in a fairly thin portion of the fence with only perhaps 2 or 3 threads engaged and are easily stripped.

If you have a jamb where the piece being fed snags on the corner of the outfeed it could easily damage that fence and will definitely throw it completely out of alignment.

We took the outer fence extrusion to the edge sander and knocked a pretty hefty bevel on it so there was no chance of a catch if the work piece tries to dive into the gap.

Again only a guess but I'd bet with the track you can cut your toe in in half of anything suggested. I have always read the tracks are great for shorts and feeding straight. Too much toe in could easily over power that outfeed fence.

I too wonder how you will handle straddling a cutter as we do that the majority if the time. It would be difficult/impossible on many profiles, but you'd likely have to run face down whenever it's needed.

[Peter Quinn]

I'm looking at my three wheel feeders, I've got two wheels before the cutter with a tight space between, a gap I'd call roughly double the gap between the first two wheels, then the third wheel. One is a grizzly branded comatic, the other an ancient MEC (italian brand), I've also used Steff's at work set up the same way. To me the logical way to run this is two wheels before the cutter, the cutter spinning in the biggest gap so I can get in as close as possible, the third wheel on the out feed side. Do others do this differently? I really like my 4 wheel feeder best, two fore and two aft, hard to beat…..unless you have a track feeder!

Jack, ever tried milling the cedar with a spiral head? I made a bunch of window trim from 5/4 STK this summer, had to joint, plane, rejoint etc. I did it all on Byrd heads, planer and jointer, not shaper, flawless, smooth right through knots, no tearout on reverse grain. I remember shaping a pile of cedar trim at work and having to climb everything, standard rotation it was like milling an old straw broom or rope…..long strips of grain just getting pulled off and tossed out willy nilly, big mess. I love your work, I keep revisiting that video just to see the short walking tour of the property!

[jack forsberg]

Pete
if that's the way the feeder is with the 2 wheels and large space i do put the cuter in the larger space too.

have yet to drink the koolade but have been looking at some heads

http://www.cggschmidt.com/store/insert_heads.php

http://www.guhdo.com/cutterheads-groovers/planer-moulder-cutterheads.html

[Graham Hutchinson]

Thanks again everyone. There certainly is a lot to learn. Mark, I will be sure to check out the fence as you suggested. Even in operation without a feeder I have had to be careful not to catch the edge of the outbound fence.

In relation to straddling the cutter, I guess I will have to run face down, or have the track further away from the fence, or if necessary convert the head to 3 rollers for the profiles that required it.

[David Kumm]

I just checked my three wheel feeders. My old Elu which is being cleaned and fixed does have a slightly larger gap between the two rear wheels. My Steff Primomatic which I had thought was a total knockoff of the Elu has a quite wide gap between the first and second so they aren't all alike. I've got to look at the regular Comatics and see where the gap is. That is usually where the cutter goes with me too. The Elu does have double wide wheels so removing one wheel on the second axle gets to the same place- kind of. Dave

[Mark Bolton]

My assumption has always been two wheels behind, one in front, with the wheels as close to the fence as tooling allows. You'd nearly always want two wheels pushing against the cutter with the single (or pair if a 4 wheel has the gap centered) wheel pulling the piece out after the cutter has disengaged for the most part. Further, the lead rear wheel often gets a bit of chip accumulation so the second picks up the slack.

If I were to orient my feeder with two wheels in front ( with standard right to left/jointer style feed) the feed wheels would be perhaps 6" off the fence rendering it useless.

In my world, the two wheels are always in the rear pushing. Just like a push stick on a table saw. Your never pulling, always pushing.

[Jeff Duncan]

A lot of how you use the feeder is going to come down to what your doing. Many parts for me are wide enough that any gap between the wheels is irrelevant. Cabinet and passage door stiles and rails, jambs, faceframe parts all can be run easily without having to straddle the cutter. It's only when I get to really small moldings that I have to worry about getting the feeder super tight to the cutter.

As for track feeders I don't know much about them. Is the OP's feeder a normal 3 wheeler with the belt kit, or a dedicated track? If it's the kit I'd be inclined to pick up a set of wheels from Western Roller as they'll likely be much more useful for general work. I have a kit for one of my feeders and have yet to use it. I know they're supposed to be good for feeding very short parts through, but I just don't have many occasions where that's necessary. I'm holding on to it for someday though, as I know if I sell it something will come up:o

JeffD

[Stephen Cherry]

If it's the kit I'd be inclined to pick up a set of wheels from Western Roller as they'll likely be much more useful for general work.
JeffD

I've got these wheels on one of my three wheel feeder, and they make a huge difference. They are like snow tires in the wood shop.

[Mel Fulks]

Another vote for Western Roller tires and wheels. The stock tires just don't have enough grab. They also save money in the long run since you won't have to use so much of those expensive table sprays.

[Erik Christensen]

question for the group - how would your wheel position change (if at all) for a climb cut? I have a 4 wheel & do a lot of climb cuts and normally set it up so I have 2 wheels on either side - that sound right?

[Graham Hutchinson]

I contacted both the Maggi Steff distributor and Western Roller this morning to get pricing on kits to convert track to wheels. Western Roller was about 20% of the price of the Maggi kit. I'm going to hold off though until I have enough time with the feeder to really know if I need them or not. I purchased the feeder from J&G Machinery and had a very good experience with them. Didn't feel comfortable with the previous distributor, so held off until Maggi Steff made the change.

[Jeff Duncan]

question for the group - how would your wheel position change (if at all) for a climb cut? I have a 4 wheel & do a lot of climb cuts and normally set it up so I have 2 wheels on either side - that sound right?

Luckily my shaper runs smoothly enough that I don't have too much need for climb cutting anymore. On the occasion when I do I position the wheels the same as you 2 and 2. If I use a 3 wheeler I would do 2 in before the cutter and one after. My view of feeder positioning is that I want as much roller in contact when the piece first hits the cutter as possible. Once it's through there's no danger of flying, so one wheel to push out is fine.

JeffD

[jack forsberg]

I agree with Jeff mostly.

Climb cutting is very usefully in wavy woods like birds eyes and curry maple. Insert tooling is very limit in profile cutters so if you can not use helical heads what do you do? Its not got much to do with the smoothness of a machine as it does the size of cutter. Larger machines with big spindle do help keep thing stable but depth of cut is what you are concerned with . With larger machines heavy cuts can be made and the wood in front of the cut keeps the chipping down. Large sharper run larger heads also and the attach angle of the knifes to the work is at a lower angle. this in turn does not lift the fiber as much as smaller heads that pull out of the cut with a lifting action. Molding machines that run finger joint cut heavy.

Climb cutting IMO is best done with an outside fence(a fence the traps the work between it and the cutter). Out board fence work is never done free hand only with power feeders. Tooling should always be of the chip limiting design and depth of cut kept shallow. The out board fence works with the effects of the cutter wanting to push the work away and there fore your feeder only needs down pressure to hole the work. Down pressure should be at Max wheel travel. Feed rate is slower not more than 10 to 15 fpm with a 2 or 3 knife cutter but one should adjust the speed so as not to glaze the work.

[J.R. Rutter]

question for the group - how would your wheel position change (if at all) for a climb cut? I have a 4 wheel & do a lot of climb cuts and normally set it up so I have 2 wheels on either side - that sound right?

Yes, that's how I do it. I just give it a little more angle towards the fence (I use a continuous fence for these operations, as I don't have to remove the entire edge), and a little more down pressure.

[Peter Quinn]

I agree with Jeff mostly.

Climb cutting is very usefully in wavy woods like birds eyes and curry maple. Insert tooling is very limit in profile cutters so if you can not use helical heads what do you do? Its not got much to do with the smoothness of a machine as it does the size of cutter. Larger machines with big spindle do help keep thing stable but depth of cut is what you are concerned with . With larger machines heavy cuts can be made and the wood in front of the cut keeps the chipping down. Large sharper run larger heads also and the attach angle of the knifes to the work is at a lower angle. this in turn does not lift the fiber as much as smaller heads that pull out of the cut with a lifting action. Molding machines that run finger joint cut heavy.

Climb cutting IMO is best done with an outside fence(a fence the traps the work between it and the cutter). Out board fence work is never done free hand only with power feeders. Tooling should always be of the chip limiting design and depth of cut kept shallow. The out board fence works with the effects of the cutter wanting to push the work away and there fore your feeder only needs down pressure to hole the work. Down pressure should be at Max wheel travel. Feed rate is slower not more than 10 to 15 fpm with a 2 or 3 knife cutter but one should adjust the speed so as not to glaze the work.

My present favorite head is a 5" 4Z garniga rabbit head. I've used it for pattern work, chip out is minimal in most regular species. I think as you noted its largely a factor of exit angle being more gentle on the bigger head. The razor sharp carbide inserts may be a factor too? Much sharper than braised tooling possibly can be. I have a 7" rabbit head I bought for door jambs….mostly because I got a good deal on a very large rabbit head, but I don't use that much beyond door jamb rabbits, its just to heavy to lift! On the bright side it takes out a 1/2" X 2 1/8" rabbit in one shot with little effort and no chipping, so thats a plus. I'm now running a 6 1/2" insert head for passage doors, makes a very smooth cut, its only 2Z though. I used to climb cut more when I was using smaller 3/4" tooling more, seemed necessary, but as the tooling has become larger diameter the tearout has mysteriously gone away…..hmmmmm.


I haven't used them but I was advised the Ghudo insert heads are great stuff. I have used a Byrd head on some funky cherry, seemed to do the job very effectively, smooth as silk in nearly any direction.