Jet & Powermatic...What are they thinking?

[Mike Cruz]

Okay, so have these guys really upped their game, started making their products THAT much better, and started warrantying their products for life...or do they think we're stupid? Obviously the latter. A 16" Jet lathe went for about $1600 just a few years ago, now the same lathe is $2600. I just saw the Woodcraft sale flier and they say the 6" jointer is normally $920. WHAT? $920 for a 6" jointer?

I understand that material costs have gone up. But a 6" joiner (even Jets) were in the mid $400s to $500 just a few years ago. The cost of materials CAN'T have gone up by twice of the total cost (including profits) in the last 6 years or so.

Not to mention, we are still in a recession. It isn't like we've pulled out and everyone is living high on the hog...with extra money to NOW buy mediocre overpriced equipment.

The only way to stop this nonsense is to stop buying them. Heck, you can't even argue that they are made in America and that makes them worth more. Nope, same China "quality". :confused:

Now, is Walter Meier (or whoever owns PM and Jet now) American owned? If it is, why is it gouging "its own"? If not, why are we still buying their stuff...allowing them to sell mediocre equipment for outrageous prices? Heck, either way, why are we still buying their stuff? :mad:

I'm all for capitalism and making a profit. But in a less than stellar economy, to start doubling your price when your product is no better is simply dishonest and rude. I hope the majority of others feel the same and do not buy new PM and Jet equipment.

[Duane Meadows]

And what has the dollar value done in the same time frame? Me thinks more than just the cost of material going on here! However, I agree, they are pricing them selves out of my range.

[Lloyd McKinlay]

Gotta pay for that acquisition somehow. A recent thread discussed the sale to Tenex Capital http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?208762-Walter-Meire-bought-by-Tenex-Capital-Management!&highlight=Tenex

[Peter Quinn]

The invisible hand will slap them hard if they so deserve it. Luckily I'm in a position that I don't want or need anything from them, so it matters little to me how they price their goods. WMH was Swiss, I believe Tenex may be US based, but that kind of company is rarely what I think of as a nation specific entity. They serve the almighty dollar first and fore most. Employees….meaningless. Customers…pawns. Getting wealthier…priceless. Grizzly may eventually prove to be the only company left worth buying that sort of thing from because the owner actually seems interested in the product and the customer. There are some signs of life over at Powermatic, expensive but at least they are still fighting. Jet? I didn't understand why people bought that level at the old prices, so if they have gone up, I just understand it less. The same chiwan imports as they other guys but for 15-20% more….because they are now distantly related to powematic….who used to a well respected American manufacturer…..its all very tenuous. Does PT Barnum run that organization by any chance?

[Michael Peet]

Just to be pedantic, the recession ended over 4 years ago. :D

The one PM machine I've been following the last few years has not seen the same level of price increase you describe; maybe it depends on the item.

Mike

[Paul McGaha]

Dang.

http://www.tools-plus.com/jet-708457dxk.html

That jointer has really gone up in price hasn't it? I started out with a jointer like that. I think about $500 maybe 10 years ago. I looked around at some of their other tools like their 14" band saw and 15"drill press and they haven't had any where near that kind of price increase. Really surprising to me, pretty short beds on that jointer (like most 6"jointers I guess).

PHM

[Earl McLain]

This past January of this year I bought a Craftsman 21833 table saw. Listed at more than $450, but less than its Ridgid 4512 cousin (499 at the time). Had a coupon, discount deal, etc and ended up paying about $340 for the saw--about the real right price in my mind. Was on the Craftsman web site the other night and the 21833 now has a regular price of $649 (marked down to $549 today so some of that increase is to make a higher purchase price feel like a $100 discount), just about a 45% increase in just 9 months. This prompted me to look at the 4512, and its retail went from $499 to $529, which is kind of tough to get a break from. Did prices surge for real or did some prices get big increases so they could reflect bigger discounts??

earl

[John TenEyck]

There is so much old American iron out there that is at least equal and often superior to anything of their respective counterparts made today, at half the price, why would you be upset at the price of new stuff? It just makes the decision to find an old gem even easier.

John

[Andrew Fleck]

There is so much old American iron out there that is at least equal and often superior to anything of their respective counterparts made today, at half the price, why would you be upset at the price of new stuff? It just makes the decision to find an old gem even easier.

John

I'm with you John. You can find some serious deals on old American iron if you are patient. I don't even consider new equipment anymore. The cost is just ridiculous to me. Most of the time new bearings, a little tweaking, and a lot of elbow grease will land you a great machine.

[Judson Green]

There is so much old American iron out there that is at least equal and often superior to anything of their respective counterparts made today, at half the price, why would you be upset at the price of new stuff? It just makes the decision to find an old gem even easier.

John

+1! Huge fan off old arn here. Might need a little lovin but worth it.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Some people want to work wood not rework old machinery. After working on electronics and electrical/mechanical equipment daily from radar to CT and MR scanners for over 40 years and doing all the maintenance on my own personal vehicles, the last thing I want to do in my free time is work on machines, engines, transmissions, clutches, etc. I want to work wood.


Beyond that...on my local craigslist you seldom see old iron for sale and if it is, the owner is proud of it based on the asking price.


Each to their own!

The reason for the price increases? Decreased value of the dollar and increased cost of shipping the machines from Taiwan or China to the US could explain it. Recent articles I have read indicate that the local economies in a lot of Asian countries have increased.....increasing labor costs.

[Stephen Cherry]

I'm all for people looking at their options, and making a decision that best suites their circumstance. I'm pretty handy with fixing machines, so I have bought used equipment, but lots of people don't want to mess around with it. One thing that I think that we know is that just because you plop down the big money does not mean that you wont need to do some wrenching, if only just to align a machine.

[Mike Cruz]

Stephan, you got it!

I've got some older stuff, and I love them. I love bringing old stuff to life. That said, I like new stuff. But I just don't see paying twice what we were paying 5 years ago for the exact same thing... Better, yes. More bells and whistles, yes. Easier to use, repair, fix, less problems, maintain, yes. But for the same thing...NO!

[Brian W Smith]

Echo'ing the last two posts.We have some beautiful old arn peacefully working alongside new equipment,in several of our shops.

We "fix"(welding/machine)a lot of equip for folks.....it's just part of the pkg.The more equip a shop gets,the more maintenance.The more you use a pce...the more maint.and on and on.

Personally I think we've reached a "node" in chicom startup co's but.......have been wrong before?If that's correct,you'll see a little thinning of the herd.It'll be interesting to watch the two brands in O.P.,in this respect.

[eugene thomas]

I was noticing price craziness lately also. bought pm719t in November 2010 for 900 on sale and now its like 1275 on amazon. pretty big rice jump in just 3 years.

[Jacob Reverb]

I wouldn't lose too much sleep over it. If the machinery isn't worth what they're asking, the market will correct them. That's what markets are for. Centrally-planned economies...not so much.

[Stephen Cherry]

I've got some older stuff, and I love them. I love bringing old stuff to life. That said, I like new stuff. But I just don't see paying twice what we were paying 5 years ago for the exact same thing... Better, yes. More bells and whistles, yes. Easier to use, repair, fix, less problems, maintain, yes. But for the same thing...NO!

I was wondering why you would care so much about the new powermatic when you have done so well with the older machines. Except for the lack of a racing stripe (un cool), that powermatic lathe was about as nice of a rehab on a machine as could be done.

As for prices, I've been looking at pickup trucks and you can spend 35k in a minute. If you want a bigger truck to tow, add in another 10k or more. Prices on a lot of things are sky high, and I don't know how people afford things. Which brings me to one rule that I have arrived at-

Never finance a depreciating asset. Unless it is going to bring you some money.

[Mike Cruz]

Boy, Jacob, you certainly have faith in your fellow man. I keep hearing the ringing of, "A fool and his money are quickly parted." And we've got a lot of fools with money. There are those who bother to ask around for advice and guidance. But too many purchase blindly. Enough, I'm afraid, to keep the prices where they are and going up... I commend you for your optimism, though.

[Mike Cruz]

Stephen, why am I worried? Well, I suppose it is more "disgusted and appalled" than worried. What doesn't make sense to me makes me scratch my head...hence this thread.

Pick ups...well, yes...there's that. When I bought my pick up 10 years ago, I paid $38K. Got a good deal. Chevy 2500 diesel. I've got 170K miles on it. Still going strong. Same pick up today would be about $50K. Now, I do, in a way, understand why there is an increase in the trucks...there are a LOT of new features, the engine is more powerful, and it is likely "safer". My point about Jet/Powermatic equipment is that they are pumping out the EXACT same machines, but charging 40% or so more. No more R&D had to go into them. Just spit them out and sell them. Silly, just silly.

[Christopher Collins]

Buy used. I've been going to estate sales, about once a month, for about a year now, and I've built my whole shop with literally no new tools. I buy EVERYTHING used.
What I've learned is that there are a lot of people who buy shiny, high end tools, and either never use them, or take such good care of them that they look brand new. Most require almost no repairs. It's the same with most hobbies. A lot of people get this idea in their head that they're going to do a lot of woodworking, buy all the tools (new, top of the line, of course), and then get bored and move onto the next thing (fishing, golf, hunting...). Of the ones who stick with it and become real woodworkers, many appear to be hoarders, who fill their shops with more stuff than they'll ever use in several lifetimes. It boggles my mind how much money must have gone into these guy's basements. Craigslist is OK, but real hard-core woodworkers buy really nice tools, and hold onto them until they die, literally. Going to estate sales puts things in perspective. You can't take any of this stuff with you. I joke to my wife "Dead people own all the nicest things".

A good quality, well maintained tool (which is the only kind worth buying) will outlive it's owner, so I think of it as recycling. I like to imagine that the previous owner would like to see his equipment used by a young beginning woodworker like myself, instead of the landfill. Heck, I even buy most of my wood from estate sales. I buy my finishes, sand-paper, glue, everything, used. Last weekend I filled the trunk of my car with wood from an estate sale. maple, walnut, cherry, exotics (koa, ziricote, purpleheart). It cost me $30. Just one of those exotic boards would cost that much new. And it's all completely seasoned, dry as a bone, because it's been in some person's basement for a decade. Woodcraft is for suckers.

If you can find the right estate sale, you can get very good deals, but you'd better be at the front of the line, because you won't be the only person looking, and the large power tools get snapped up fast (within minutes of opening, sometimes). The wood , strangely, is usually ignored by most estate sale shoppers, until at least the second day, which is usually half price day. They buy up all the power tools, but they walk right past a slab of burl that's marked at 5% of it's real value. Oh well...more cheap wood for me.

[David Kumm]

The real comparable here to to look at Grizzly pricing over the past ten years. They are by far the high volume low cost supplier out there. High end stuff has risen over the decade as well. If it weren't for the mathmatics of low interest rates and falling real estate prices we would be acknowledging more inflation than we are lead to believe is here currently. That inflation is also affecting the Asian Rim as there monetary policies devalue their currency as well. It will continue even with weak economies. There has never been much profit in the low end machinery business so Jet and PM might be trying to catch up but will need to do some serious quality improvements to move into the Felder, Minimax, SCMI arena. Those prices are rising as well.

Maybe the price increases will raise the used market which has been low and full of bargains. I hear the argument that people by new to work wood rather than machines but I've done both and the time savings isn't all that different. A Felder combo needs a couple of days to set up correctly. I've read many threads where the OP sent back one or more machines to get an acceptable one or settled for one never completely in adjustment so it's kind of a push in my world.

We have been spoiled with low pricing as the Asian workers worked for nothing and have lost some perspective of cost vs value so there will be some readjustment in our attitudes as they raise their lifestyles as we did years ago. At least now there are alternatives thanks to the internet. No right or wrong here. The world economy needs both types of buyers. Dave

[Keith Hankins]

I'm with you John. You can find some serious deals on old American iron if you are patient. I don't even consider new equipment anymore. The cost is just ridiculous to me. Most of the time new bearings, a little tweaking, and a lot of elbow grease will land you a great machine.

+ 1 on that! I wish I'd known about that back when I started many many moons ago. If you look its there for the taking and cheap! After I put in a rotary phase converter and could pick up 3 phase stuff (even better and cheaper). I've never looked back.

[Cody Colston]

Some people want to work wood not rework old machinery.

+1

I'm a woodworker, not a mechanic. If I have to wrench on something very much, it gets replaced. Cars, lawnmowers, woodworking machines...

[Bill Whig]

FWIW, I've kept my eye on a few table saws and jointers at Grizzly for quite a while. The "Christmas Sale" prices now are 10% higher than those in July. For some reason, the prices of the Grizzly table saws (at least G0690 and G0691) that are listed at Amazon.com went up more than 20% this week. I'm not sure what is going on there--maybe Grizzly is using Amazon.com as a "showroom".

Bill

[Mike Heidrick]

Buy what makes you happy.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Buy what makes you happy.

Bingo.......there is no right or wrong......

[Phil Thien]

Jet = commodity products at premium prices. I know they have a dealer margin they have to bake into the cake, but their prices are still very high.

If I were purchasing new iron, I'd buy Grizzly in a heartbeat. Reason: Service and support. They seem to have better parts availability than anyone else.

[Jacob Reverb]

Buy what makes you happy.

That's just crazy talk.

[Brian Peters]

I've noticed this too, prices have gone up a lot in the last few years. I doubt they are stupid, they are a large company to not understand and respect the laws of price elasticity, but assuming they are stupid, it will just bite them in the end. Sooner or later they will lower prices (which jet has been doing lately by 15% here and there). There is a lot of used woodworking machinery out there, A LOT! If you are open to freighting stuff, there is a lot to be had from auctions and private listings. IMO used good machinery that is revamped is always a better bet than new imported crap.

[David Hawkins]

I think the problem is that the dollar is worth less on the international market as opposed to the machines being worth more.... beer $0.99 a six pack... gas $0.30 per gallon... postage $0.08 per oz. first class.... those were the days my friend.... and work a week for $50.00 before taxes.... 1968....

[Aleks Hunter]

A few things. You neglect to account for changes in the price of iron and steel. The increased price and skill sets of labor The value of the dollar vs China's yuan, and the fact that if the old machine had a two year warrantee and the new one has a lifetime warrantee they are not the same machines. even if they are the same exact relabeled reboxed machines they are still a different product with a different value. If you think powermatic machines are overly expensive, look at hammer, which are really Felder for hobbyists machines. they made a business decision. If you want American made and top of the line quality, look at Northfield. But have your nitroglycerine tabs handy before you open their price list!

[George Gyulatyan]

I wouldn't lose too much sleep over it. If the machinery isn't worth what they're asking, the market will correct them. That's what markets are for. Centrally-planned economies...not so much.
If that was true we wouldn't have the housing bubble.

[Christopher Collins]

Bubbles burst. That's the correction.