Too much time spent designing. HELP

[Floyd Cox]

Am I the only one that does this?

I built a relatively simple toy chest for my grandson last Christmas, which probably took 6 – 8 hours to build, yet I sat at the computer for a good 20 hours off and on designing this. I think sometimes I postpone the actual project because am in a comfort zone at the computer, when in reality the projects are so stinking simple, sometimes I should just get started on them after an hour or two; if there is an actual need for designing something so simple in the first place.

[Myk Rian]

I rarely use a plan. I'll sit back and think about it as I go along.
The only real plan I did use was for my tool chest.

[Bruce Page]

I really admire people that can design & build on the fly. I’m not one of them, I design & draw out almost everything in AutoCAD.

[Steven Lee, NC]

I tried designing with sketchup once and it came out looking pretty good but I realized that my trying to get every detail right was a waste of time and I was spending way to much time in front of the pc instead of making sawdust. A few sketches on graph paper to get the look I want are all I do now and most things I do are proportional and if I want to add an extra length to something to reach an easy to measure value, ie 13/16 vs 1 I'll do so on the spot. I have yet to build anything that had to fit an exact measurement.

If I had a plotter that could print out life size templates to follow that would be another story but i don't.

[Dave Richards]

I design all my projects in SketchUp but I know when to stop with the details and go to the shop. Sometimes all I need are a few lines and basic dimensions. If you looked at those SketchUp models and the final project, you probably wouldn't recognize they are related. Some times I have to add more details and it's good that I do because I can work out the complexities before making the first mote of sawdust. I know a guy who also does a lot of design work for his projects using SketchUp. He really likes pocket screws and puts in every single screw he'll use in his SketchUp model. I always find that overkill but to each his own.

No matter what tool you use for designing projects, you have to know when to quit designing and go build.

[Joe Jensen]

Are you playing with proportions and how the product looks visually or with defining a parts list and doing the CAD work necessary to get there. I work in high tech and love computers. I originally thought that CAD would be ideal for me, but what I find is that it takes me longer to do the CAD work than to build the project. Before cheap CAD programs I used computer drawing programs to play with proportions. I'm a sketch the design and the approximate dimensions, and then start building. I adapts as I go. Say I'm making an end table with some amazing figured walnut that will be 18" wide. When I resaw the slab I end up with two pieces that will yield 17 3/4" not 18" I just adapt and build a slightly smaller table that is 17 3/4
wide.

[Harold Burrell]

I did a pretty extensive sketchup plan for a sideboard for my wife. Now that I am finally building it, I am finding that my plan had "flaws".

Oh, the measurements and all were okay. It just wasn't solid enough for my liking. It has some joinery issues...

[Jeff Duncan]

My thought is pretty simple and straightforward, the more time spent planning, the less time spent building.....or worse yet, re-building;)

good luck,
JeffD

[Sam Murdoch]

Simply put - you can build it twice (or 3 or 4 or 5 times depending on the complexity) in your head/paper/computer or twice (3,4,5 Xs) in the shop. I'd rather do the thinking and head scratching in advance - solve the hardware issues (so often neglected until the last minute) and proportions, for example, so that I can have fun while building. Do I find unresolved issues once I actually start to build? Sometimes yes, sometimes no, but usually if I need to make a change the project gets better as I upgrade or simplify from the benefit of the preplanning. That's a better route than needing to make corrections or having to accept crap because you didn't resolve proportions or hardware or other details ahead of time. I think :).

[Art Mann]

If the piece is going to be complex, I will always do a near complete Sketchup model ahead of time. I like to see how a project is going to look before I build it. I also like to have the dimensions of the various parts before I start. Sometimes I get a little carried away with details but I enjoy designing things on computer and that is just part of the fun.

[Mike Cutler]

Floyd

I'd say you're doing it the better way. I envy your patience.
20 hours of design and 8 hours of build, or 8 hours of design and 20 hours of scratching your head and figuring it out on the fly. In the end the time would still be close.

[Dave Zellers]

For me everything gets drawn in 2D CAD and sometimes in SU. Lots of issues show up and are dealt with in the drawing phase. If sheet goods are involved, the pieces are carefully laid out for minimum waste.

A kitchen drawing has to be strictly adhered to but single items and the like usually undergo changes on the workbench. Part of the fun of creating things.

Sometimes however I will put a ton of effort into designing every last detail and lose some of the enthusiasm for building it because I feel like I already have. :confused:

[dan sherman]

I use Sketchup a lot, for two reasons. One, it lets me work out design concepts without wasting material. Two, it saves me a crap ton of money when I go to buy stock, because I take an oversize parts list with me.

[John TenEyck]

I'm pretty sure I save an hour in the shop for every hour I spend designing/drawing, at least for any project that takes more than a few hours to build. Everybody has their own process; I used to use pencil and paper, then AutoCad LT, now SketchUp. SketchUp is by far the best for me. It's easier for me to evaluate options and refine a design now, rather than accept something less optimal because it's too much effort to redraw it.

John

[Peter Quinn]

I prefer to design on the computer with Sketchup in most cases, however you do it I see design as a vital part of the process and not at all a waste of time. I will certainly simplify some of the details where appropriate, in other cases every detail gets drawn precisely. I recently built a french casement for myself, probably had 75 hours into the design process, maybe more, but not more than 25 hours total in the build. Double weather seals, had to fit an fairly tight rough opening, I would have been lost and sunk if I started designing that on the fly. Even a simple toy chest has to function, it has moving parts, safety concerns, proportions to consider, and it has to hold the toys! I know guys that have made uppers kitchen cabinets a bit too shallow to hold dinner plates…….built without a plan. You could do a full scale drawing on paper, story poles, scale mock ups, computer, long hand scale drawings. But it must be done. I suppose going into the shop and cutting a pile of wood up and designing on the fly has some intuitive appeal, a "Git er done" charm, but thats rarely the way fine work is accomplished. Thats more of a prototype brainstorm slam approach to me, I could't see committing fine hardwoods to that approach.

[Ralph Okonieski]

I've tried Sketchup but do not use it often enough to make it efficient and enjoyable. I draw up everything by hand in rough form. Since woodworking is a hobby for me, I'm not under pressure to be efficient.

I may rough it out two or three times to make sure I do not miss any parts. When I'm ready to build, I'm comfortable that the plan is complete.

[Justin Ludwig]

Since using a program, my reworks have become almost non-existent. Once you get past the learning curve you'll wonder how life was possible without it. ;)

[David Hawkins]

When I was working for a medium sized furniture company detailed plans were mandatory and I have done hundreds of them including detailed drawings of every part and sub-assembly and then doing samples of everything to verify the drawings but when I am building one of something I just make a quick sketch of the outlines I want then start building. Sometimes I goof up a part but even with rework it is quicker than detailing everything out. CAD programs are necessary for mass production but can be overkill for small projects.

That being said, they are great for those that want to learn the relationships of the parts without spending a lot of money on lumber and hardware.

[Don Jarvie]

Wow I feel like I'm working old school. I do a full size drawing by hand so I can see what the actual piece will look like. I can then generate a cutlist and get going.

I don't mark out every detail and it always ends up being slightly smaller or bigger but it helps when laying out draws so they are evenly spaced. Definetly a big help and I can draw it out in a few hrs.

[David Hawkins]

No you aren't old school. :D Old School would make a couple or three Story Sticks and build the case from those, one for the height, possibly one for the depth and one for the width. With a little practice they can be laid out in an hour or less and will give you all of your dimensions and can be used all through construction to check and verify. And you don't have to worry about spilling your coffee on them either:) Good straight sticks, a good square, a good tape measure or a folding rule and a sharp pencil are all you need. When you are done label them, hang them on the wall and you can build again from them anytime.

[Bill Whig]

After spending a few weeks learning SketchUp, I can't imagine do very much creating without using it to construct a drawing. I suggest using a book to learn it (after watching some of the the online tutorials and experimenting).

I think that by constructing that sort of drawing, one will come closer to maximizing the potential of a project. It is much like building a prototype.

Bill

[David Hawkins]

I took a course in AutoCad at the University of NH back in the 90's and have done literally thousands of drawings using that program. I can do all the detailing for most case goods (say an average of 40 parts (+/-) including presentation drawings in 3D in about 3 days so I feel confident in my skills.

I am retired now and do various projects for people and I generally do a page sized freehand sketch for the client to be sure that we are on the same page, half an hour tops for that. Then I make such story sticks as I feel I need and start cutting. For a one off project AutoCad is like using a shotgun to kill flies as far as I am concerned. Yes it is quick but I have been using story sticks since my grandfather taught me about them 50 years ago and I am comfortable with them and they serve me well.

I have been using computers since 1969, and CNC really rocks for mass producing furniture parts but I don't have it in my little one man shop for the same reason that I rarely need AutoCad... flies and shotguns and getting things done without spending any more time than I need to on a job. Like I said drawing programs are great to learn the trade or for doing factory level detailing but there are faster ways to get things done than spending a half a day or more sitting at the computer. I just can't justify that as billable hours.

[Dave Richards]

I've been working with a woodworker in NC for about 5 years doing design work for projects for his clients. Giving the client 3D perspective views helps to make sure we're all on the same page. We might go through half a dozen iterations before we get to the final design. After the final design is settle on, I make the construction documents so my woodworker can go to the shop and bang out the project with spending time scratching his head. He gets a precise cut list, knows how much material he'll need and details regarding joinery. He buys drawer boxes and doors and I can give him the details to make his order. In cases where we're dealing with built-ins I can include required framing and wiring details. Evidently, for him it is worth what he pays me for the services I provide.

[Kevin McCluney]

I bought my first PC primarily so I could use a CAD program to design my projects; before that I was drawing them out (to scale) which was a hassle when I altered the design. I've since moved to 3D CAD which I find better for getting a feel for the proportions. I make extensive use of the ability to fine tune the shape of curved pieces (such as for cabriole legs, desk tops, scroll saw patterns, turned posts, etc.). The patterns can then be printed out to glue to the wood to cut/sand to. So, for me, the design phase is a normal part of practically every project I do and I find the time well worth the effort.

[Chris Fournier]

On certain projects I do get exhausted at the design phase. I have drafted for years but now use SketchUp. It took me about one month of concerted effort and I was using SketchUp for paying work; It was a challenge for me but worth it! The benfits of a good computer developed design were well worth the tedium of resolving all of the minor details, especially when there were deadlines and $10s of thousands of dollars on the line.

Sometimes I'm in my shop and feeling a bit aimless. On these days I do find myself grabbing an idea, a piece of paper and a pencil and moving from broad strokes to the starter buttons on equipment or my tool drawers. I am never committing expensive materials and days of labour to these sorts of projects, they are short and satisfying affairs.

When considerable resources are going to consumed my design time represents a significant portion of the project and I have never regretted this for one moment. Often times I will develop detailed drawings and then make scale or full sized models of portions or all of the project. This really helps move from virtual to concrete. Lot's of folks talk about getting proportions and curves right as they go and it can be done but it can be done even better with more time at the design phase.

[David Hawkins]

That is the perfect use for CAD programs, couldn't agree more!

I also agree with Floyd Cox when he started this thread:


Am I the only one that does this?

I built a relatively simple toy chest for my grandson last Christmas, which probably took 6 – 8 hours to build, yet I sat at the computer for a good 20 hours off and on designing this. I think sometimes I postpone the actual project because am in a comfort zone at the computer, when in reality the projects are so stinking simple, sometimes I should just get started on them after an hour or two; if there is an actual need for designing something so simple in the first place.

I guess my whole point is that Story Sticks are the oldest design tool going; they helped build the pyramids, European cathedrals, castles and Louis the XIV furniture, and most of the Early American furniture. They have been around over 5000 years and across most cultures, They are simple yet sophisticated and as accurate as their maker. You do need to know what you are doing when you lay them out to get the most out of them but that is true of any tool, especially CAD

[Jim Andrew]

I have not bothered to learn drafting by computer, but have lots of experience drawing plans from my career building homes. I draw a pencil drawing of my projects. Learning to use the computer for drafting would take longer than just doing the drawing.

[Dave Richards]

David, I agree with you that story sticks are very useful. They don't do much for showing someone else what it is you are going to be building, though. ;)

[Bill Whig]

I have not bothered to learn drafting by computer, but have lots of experience drawing plans from my career building homes. I draw a pencil drawing of my projects. Learning to use the computer for drafting would take longer than just doing the drawing.
Yes, for the fist one, because you already know how to draw with a pencil. Once you learn to draw with a computer, you'll find it has several advantages besides not needing a drafting table. For instance, once you've modeled your drawing with the computer, you can have ANY view you like (top, front, side, cross-section, other) at the click of a button. You can, of course, even view your new items in your living space, virtually at least. Based upon your career experience, you may be especially impressed with what one can do with SU! Have fun! -Bill

[Dave Richards]

Jim, to add to what Bill wrote, it might take longer to learn to use the computer for drafting than it takes to draft up a couple of projects but in the long run it can be a good time investment. And there are a number of benefits in addition to those Bill listed. Details such as joinery can easily be work out with precisions. You can generate materials lists in seconds without a calculator. You can make changes to the project without having to start over. For example the coffee table/bench was made in a few minutes from the little fern stand in the background. I didn't need to redraw anything.
http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6147/6035255232_8c0f07658f.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/8294157@N08/6035255232/)

The tall table came from the short one. Again, I didn't have to redraw a thing.
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8448/7857786700_a40cea8c4b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/8294157@N08/7857786700/)
And a 2D elevation took seconds to make.
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7247/7857787066_d03d085c9c.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/8294157@N08/7857787066/)
And the final version of the tall table.
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8104/8490323846_e4daeacf24.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/8294157@N08/8490323846/)


I think folks should use whatever method works for them. If you like drawing with pencil on paper, great. If you can design a project with nothing but a stick covered in tick marks, go for it. All that really matters is having a good time in the shop and getting the project done.