Hickory end grain help. It appears to be impenetrable!

[Peter Stahley]

I'm fairly new to the whole woodworking and hand tool world, having only really been at it for a year or so.... And I've mostly made only spoons/spatulas and the Paul sellers workbench.

Anyway, finally got around to a shooting board and was playing with it with both my #4 and #5. Pine was great on end grain and long grain, same with cherry.

Cool, I thought, and then I threw on a piece of hickory I intended to turn into a dovetail template... And nothing... So advance the blade a little - wack/thud/jar. I fiddled, resharpened, and brought the blade back but at best I'd get tiny dust or the thud at worst. Long grain was hard but worked...

Is this just the famed hickory hardness, or something else? I got it closer to square but still has judder marks in it...

[Chris Griggs]

It sounds like your blade isn't sharp enough so its not "biting" and taking a shaving at a thin setting. This causes you to need to thicken the cut, but then its too heavy plus not sharp enough and so you get the THUD.

Have you tried shooting anything other than hickory on it? Same issue or not?

One other possibility that I can think of other than edge keeness is if that if the mouth of the plane is fairly open the corner of the piece could be going too far up into it when you enter the cut IF you're not quite holding the work piece in place or if your plane stroke is a little wobbly.

Rehone, and then go slow. Not super slow you need some force but Yyu do not need to slam the plane through the cut. Even if the mouth is open you can leave that as is, just make sure your are aligning the workpiece properly with the plane sole before you start the stroke, that you are holding the piece ight against the fence, and that your stroke is straight and true. Also stick with the 5 for this, the weight compared to the 4 will be of benefit here.

Shooting hickory is very doable. It's not necessarily going to be easy with a standard vintage bench plane (just because gripping it in a way that gives enough consistent force can be challenging), but unless you are shooting a very wide or thick piece (how big is the workpiece BTW) you should be able to do it with a no. 5. There is likely something going wrong with you plane, setup, or technique.

Keep at it, and you'll get it working in no time.

[Brett Robson]

Sounds like my experience trying to clean up the ends of my hickory workbench top. It took me two days of sharpening, swearing and more sharpening to get the ends planed down. Man that was a pain!

Granted I was working on 3" thick material over a length of about 28", but I found I had to sharpen my low angle block at 30* and take the thinnest cut possible to get it to work. Even then I'd only get about 10 clean swipes before I'd have to go back to the stones.

Shooting hard woods like Hickory with a standard bench plane can be difficult. I used to shoot with a #5, which did work, but not all that well. A low angle plane of some configuration will work end grain better.

[Chris Griggs]

Addendum to previous post.

I just went down to the basement and shot some hickory with a vintage no 5. I'm so used to shooting w/ my LA jack that I forgot how much harder it is (for me anyway) to shoot with a BD bench plane. Just for comparison, I shot some other species too...hard maple wasn't all that fun either with the vintage BD plane. As big of a fan I am of vintage BD plane for most woodworking tasks...shooting is not one of them, especially when it wide, or thick, or hard material.

Can you shoot hickory or other hard material with a vintage 5? Absolutely, but you'll probably have a much easier time just striking a line around the end grain, putting the board in a vise and planing to the line.

[Jim Belair]

I would try softening the end grain a bit with mineral spirits.

[David Weaver]

Ditto the last suggestion. End grain on hickory and locust is never going to be that easy to work.

[Chris Fournier]

Check out the specific gravity of hickory, it is very dense for a domestic species! The planes you are using will have to be razor sharp and the smallest of shavings must be taken if you hope for success. I would suggest that you try a BD plane, a BU plane with a 3/16" thick blade etc. to try to reduce deflection. The task you have set for yourself is challenging regardless of skill set and experieince, good luck.

[Adam Cruea]

Yeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaa. . .

After making a 6'x3' workbench from hickory, I can say good luck shooting that endgrain. It's doable, but as Mr. Griggs said, make sure you have a sharp plane. IMHO, it's worth it to look at the Veritas/LN shooting planes if you plan to be doing this more than once. Your shoulder and wrist will thank you later and you will notice on other woods that the cuts are even easier.

You're almost better off just marking a square line around the piece and trying to cut the desired angle with a saw. I thought about "shooting" the end of my workbench for all of about 10 seconds, then said "screw it", marked a line, and went at it with the X-Cut saw.

There's a reason I make most of my own "tools" out of hickory; you can abuse the stuff without hurting it too badly. I'd much rather work Jatoba and friends as opposed to hickory.

[Winton Applegate]

Yes … wetting the end grain makes a huge difference. I used water because I don't have enough ventilation in this shop to use paint thinner or alcohol but those work even better as far as not rusting your planes. If water then dry and oil your plane as soon as you take a break or stop for the day.

In this photo I have set up to plane the end grain of this bubinga table. I will stand on the bench to get to it. Note in the second photo the glassy surface left with a nice blade edge. No finish on the wood, that is bare wood a minute or less after taking the final passes.


http://i801.photobucket.com/albums/yy298/noydb1/quotTheTablequot-1.jpg (http://s801.photobucket.com/user/noydb1/media/quotTheTablequot-1.jpg.html)


http://i801.photobucket.com/albums/yy298/noydb1/Smootherthansanded_zps2c09a477.jpg (http://s801.photobucket.com/user/noydb1/media/Smootherthansanded_zps2c09a477.jpg.html)


One problem you run into that dulls the blades is if the end grain has dirt and grit in it. Doesn't take much to dull your plane blades. The end of the board must be cut off with a saw so there is no junk in the end from standing in the dirt on the floor or from the lumber yard etc. Then keep the end grain clean before planing.


When sharpening the edge geometry needs to be impeccable meaning no rounding of the downward facing facet of the edge by hand held honing or stropping on a soft strop. At least for end grain try a sharpening jig and when touching up the blade same goes.


You could experiment with a toothed blade to get the worst off then finish up with a regular blade but not really necessary for a small amount of wood to be taken off. This is more for a large area.


http://www.lie-nielsen.com/lie-nielsen-replacement-blades/low-angle-jack-plane-blade-toothed/


On the hardness chart, for what that is worth, this bubinga is 2690 ( lb ) roughly and hickory is not rated on the same chart but I assume it is similar to rock maple but harder than rock maple some what which is rated at 1500 ( lb ).


Every plank is different more or less. The info is from this book page 8
http://www.amazon.com/Nick-Englers-Woodworking-Wisdom-Cabinetry/dp/0875966519/ref=sr_1_sc_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1383369540&sr=8-1-spell&keywords=Nick+englars
a terrific book to have by the way.


The test is the engineers drive a metal ball half way into the wood and this is how much force it takes to do it.

Lets assume the ball is 1/4 inch. Then to drive that ball 1/8 inch into the bubinga it would take the equivalent of putting the entire weight of a sports car all focused onto that little ball. Good stuff huh ?

[Peter Stahley]

Thanks everybody for the big pile of replies. I'm guessing my problem is probably somewhat sharpness (masked on the cherry/oak/etc I've been able to do book with) combined with my somewhat awkward setup...

In this case it wasn't critical (dovetail template "tenon" end) so I ended up leaving it.

Thankfully I'm not planning on shooting much hickory. The hickory dining table top I just Glued up will simply be cut to a line... I'll cross cleaning up that cut to a knife line when I get there I suppose....

Thanks again, glad to have joined the site!

[Bill White]

Is your shooting board one with the sloped table?
Bill

[Jim Neeley]

Peter,

Before I got seriously into hand tool woodworking, I felt that I knew how to sharpen. I even went out a got a couple of "tier 1 tools" (L-N & LV) to ease the transition. Upon receipt I did as everyone said and honed those brand new blades. Then I started working with my freshly sharpened tools and found working wood was HARD, taking much more force than it appeared to take others on the videos.

Then came the day I joined my local WW club and attended a hands-on class and watched how easy it seemed for a few of the others. Talking to them and trying out their planes and chisels, I learned that what I thought was sharp wasn't even close to what was needed to bring out the full pleasure of hand tool work.

Once I had someone show me what I was doing wrong and what to do right, it was a different world. With a "sharp" #6 you can place the plane on the edge of a piece of 8/4 hard maple, wrap two fingers around the front knob, and quite easily pull the plane through while cutting a full shaving. Once you experience this, a whole new world opens up to you.

I'm not saying hickory isn't a beast compared to many other woods, because it is. What I'm saying is the difference between sharp and SHARP is amazing.

Also, I'm not talking "extreme sharpening", where people spend hours honing an edge. For me and a #6, starting with a hollow ground edge from a grinder and the back of the blade polished to 8k-18k (one time ordeal), spending 20-30 seconds putting on a secondary bevel using a 1,000 grit Shapton and another 20-30 seconds or so putting a tertiary bevel on a 16K Shapton, and I'm done. There's many ways to get there, that's just mine.

IMO, the importance of really LEARNING to sharpen cannot be overstated. Once you are getting your tools razor sharp you can focus on techniques, which were actually generally easier for me to learn than the sharpening.

This is just my $0.02.. YMMV.

Jim in Alaska

[Peter Stahley]

Jim, noticing you are in AK as well if your in Anchorage, maybe at some point you'd be willing to either show me some of your "sharp" tools or take a look at mine.

Never really having had anything to compare to, I can only compare to my own prior results (I. E. Out of the box eBay damaged edge, to what I'm at now)...

Along those same lines, I really want to put my straight edge to someone else's planes and compare... Mine is "pretty flat" and seems to work, but you get online and people oscillate between "0.00001 flat" and "good enough".

[Peter Stahley]

Winston (and others) - On the wetting, just apply with rag (like a light waxing) or some other amount?

The stand the edge up and stand on bench method looks like what I'll be doing in a few days... That will be the true test, as I just Glued up the hickory table top... I'm definitely going to practice on some off cuts first though.

I'm thinking the extra leverage of not using the shooting board will help greatly, but we'll see.

[Winton Applegate]

How to get the wet on the wood

I use a largish cheep paint brush. Plastic black bristtle.
If you go with water you could use an atomizer; you know like for spraying window cleaner on a window.

The atomizer is not the best idea for applying paint thinner etc., too many fumes to breath.
I don't like using a rag, it snags on the cross grain planed, splintery, face grain but i supose would be fine for end grain as far as that goes.

I get kind of finiky and don't want to use any thing that might add grit to the surface like i imagine a rag laying on the bottom of a semi dirty bowl would. Where as a brush can be layed across the top of a jar and dipped in the water and the grit settle to the bottom.

I know , I over thunk it once again.


Winston
hey that's something. Maybe I should change my name to Winston. Ha, ha, I just can't see my self answering to that name even though it is a cool name.

[Jim Neeley]

Jim, noticing you are in AK as well if your in Anchorage, maybe at some point you'd be willing to either show me some of your "sharp" tools or take a look at mine.

Never really having had anything to compare to, I can only compare to my own prior results (I. E. Out of the box eBay damaged edge, to what I'm at now)...

Along those same lines, I really want to put my straight edge to someone else's planes and compare... Mine is "pretty flat" and seems to work, but you get online and people oscillate between "0.00001 flat" and "good enough".

Yes, I live in Anchorage and would be glad to give ya a tour and make some sawdust. I sent you a PM.

Jim in Alaska

[Adam Cruea]

Yes … wetting the end grain makes a huge difference. I used water because I don't have enough ventilation in this shop to use paint thinner or alcohol but those work even better as far as not rusting your planes. If water then dry and oil your plane as soon as you take a break or stop for the day.

In this photo I have set up to plane the end grain of this bubinga table. I will stand on the bench to get to it. Note in the second photo the glassy surface left with a nice blade edge. No finish on the wood, that is bare wood a minute or less after taking the final passes.


http://i801.photobucket.com/albums/yy298/noydb1/quotTheTablequot-1.jpg (http://s801.photobucket.com/user/noydb1/media/quotTheTablequot-1.jpg.html)


http://i801.photobucket.com/albums/yy298/noydb1/Smootherthansanded_zps2c09a477.jpg (http://s801.photobucket.com/user/noydb1/media/Smootherthansanded_zps2c09a477.jpg.html)


One problem you run into that dulls the blades is if the end grain has dirt and grit in it. Doesn't take much to dull your plane blades. The end of the board must be cut off with a saw so there is no junk in the end from standing in the dirt on the floor or from the lumber yard etc. Then keep the end grain clean before planing.


When sharpening the edge geometry needs to be impeccable meaning no rounding of the downward facing facet of the edge by hand held honing or stropping on a soft strop. At least for end grain try a sharpening jig and when touching up the blade same goes.


You could experiment with a toothed blade to get the worst off then finish up with a regular blade but not really necessary for a small amount of wood to be taken off. This is more for a large area.


http://www.lie-nielsen.com/lie-nielsen-replacement-blades/low-angle-jack-plane-blade-toothed/


On the hardness chart, for what that is worth, this bubinga is 2690 ( lb ) roughly and hickory is not rated on the same chart but I assume it is similar to rock maple but harder than rock maple some what which is rated at 1500 ( lb ).


Every plank is different more or less. The info is from this book page 8
http://www.amazon.com/Nick-Englers-Woodworking-Wisdom-Cabinetry/dp/0875966519/ref=sr_1_sc_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1383369540&sr=8-1-spell&keywords=Nick+englars
a terrific book to have by the way.


The test is the engineers drive a metal ball half way into the wood and this is how much force it takes to do it.

Lets assume the ball is 1/4 inch. Then to drive that ball 1/8 inch into the bubinga it would take the equivalent of putting the entire weight of a sports car all focused onto that little ball. Good stuff huh ?

Check the Janka scale:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janka_hardness_test

Hickory is only about 160 points lower than Bubinga.

[edit]Forgot to add, that's some sexy Bubinga endgrain there.

[Derek Cohen]

:) :) :)

Welcome to my world. Many of you have admired the Jarrahs and the She-oaks of Western Australia, but I'd trade for some of the softer, less interlocked woods you have in the States. Really. I avoided replying until now as I did not wish this comment to be mistaken as a form of competition. It is just a comparison of the different worlds of woodworking. I'd really like to hear from British woodworkers and how they feel about the woods they use. Ditto the Euros .. and anyone else around the world.

Jankas from the USA ...

Southern Yellow Pine - 690
American Cherry - 995
American White Oak - 1360

The timber under the spotlight (it is a hard wood!) ..

African Paduak - 1725 (and straight grained!)

Then from Oz there are ...

Tasmanian Oak (which looks like white oak but is really a eucalypt, is the softest wood I use, but as interesting as kangaroo droppings) - 1350
Tasmanian Blackwood - 1710
Jarrah (interlocked) - 1910
Curly Marri (interlocked) - 1910
Karri (interlocked) - 2030
WA She-oak (interlocked) - 2830

This is why O1 steel hardly rates here, and why A2 and HSS are preferred by many.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Adam Cruea]

Can you get your hands on Buloke, Derek? Just curious, since the stuff has a hardness of 5060.

Keep in mind, we can import stuff from down south. . .I've seen ipe at my sawyer. Out in CA they're supposed to have Eucalyptus trees. . .dunno how those fare.

I'd really like to see if my sawyer can import some Jarrah; it's beautiful stuff! Probably about as fun to work as Hickory, though.

To be honest, I'm a little jealous of your hardwood species down there below the equator. Seems all around the Southern Hemisphere, the woods are harder than up north.

[Winton Applegate]

​Ha, ha, ha,
Adam,

Thanks for the link. I am laughing at the various things I ran across. Let me lead you on a rough tour which may be a little out of order but anyway :

I was struck by the huge difference on the scale between our hickory and bubinga and the supposedly much harder ebony and Lignum Vitae. On the order of twice as hard.

Working the eb and lig I failed to notice it and find ebony quite planable. I mentioned working the lig. not long ago; bit of chatter with a bevel down but the bevel up took it as just another day at the bench.

They put "rosewood" no specific way way down (though other specific is at the hardest end of the scale too) and cocobolo well bellow the general rosewood though cocobolo is a rose wood and pretty hard (and yes the cocobolo smells like roses ) .

I went back and began looking through other books :
The Hodley book is using a big old flat bar on the end of the hardness tester. He did point out that which way the rings are oriented makes a difference, some of the time, and that some times averages are taken between the two to come up with the one rating if there is a difference.

the Nick Engler book :
bubinga is listed as "easy" to work with hand tools.
Easy
Ha, ha, ha they weren't woking with the batches I got so far. At least one of the planks liked to eat sharp blades for breakfast. Chomp, chomp, chomp, dull, dull, dull, . . . "can I have somemore pleaaaaase".

Bubinga is "easy" to work. Must be why I chose it; I am at heart a lazy wimp.
Little did I know what I was in for.

The "softer" purple heart for my bench was even worse in some ways.

Looking at the rating for hickory in the Nick Engler book . . .
Ha, ha, are you ready ?
sorry dude
. . . looks like you have your work cut out for you . . .
the hickory . . . of alllllll the tons of wood listed it is the only one rated at "very difficult" to work with hand tools.
Bummer.
Take heart though they may be full of beans. Why ? They list white oak as "easy" to work with hand tools. I wouldn't call it easy.

Also I wound up following the link posted by Jim Koepke lately to the H. O. Studely work bench (thank you Jim that was way cool ) and he not only made his rectangular bench dogs from ebony (I felt guilty making my vise handles from ebony) but he put one in each of about nine dog holes.
The top was banded in 1/2" x 1/2" ebony.

It was all ebony smebony to him so your much "softer" hickory should be a breeze.
Or not.

[Peter Stahley]

Maybe I should change my name to Winston. Ha, ha, I just can't see my self answering to that name even though it is a cool name.

Oops - overzealous autocorrect... Sorry! and thanks again for all the advice. Tried the mineral spirits on some cherry end grain I had to clean up for a stretcher and it was a nice little improvement.

[Adam Cruea]

​Ha, ha, ha,
Adam,

Thanks for the link. I am laughing at the various things I ran across. Let me lead you on a rough tour which may be a little out of order but anyway :

I was struck by the huge difference on the scale between our hickory and bubinga and the supposedly much harder ebony and Lignum Vitae. On the order of twice as hard.

Working the eb and lig I failed to notice it and find ebony quite planable. I mentioned working the lig. not long ago; bit of chatter with a bevel down but the bevel up took it as just another day at the bench.

They put "rosewood" no specific way way down (though other specific is at the hardest end of the scale too) and cocobolo well bellow the general rosewood though cocobolo is a rose wood and pretty hard (and yes the cocobolo smells like roses ) .

I went back and began looking through other books :
The Hodley book is using a big old flat bar on the end of the hardness tester. He did point out that which way the rings are oriented makes a difference, some of the time, and that some times averages are taken between the two to come up with the one rating if there is a difference.

the Nick Engler book :
bubinga is listed as "easy" to work with hand tools.
Easy
Ha, ha, ha they weren't woking with the batches I got so far. At least one of the planks liked to eat sharp blades for breakfast. Chomp, chomp, chomp, dull, dull, dull, . . . "can I have somemore pleaaaaase".

Bubinga is "easy" to work. Must be why I chose it; I am at heart a lazy wimp.
Little did I know what I was in for.

The "softer" purple heart for my bench was even worse in some ways.

Looking at the rating for hickory in the Nick Engler book . . .
Ha, ha, are you ready ?
sorry dude
. . . looks like you have your work cut out for you . . .
the hickory . . . of alllllll the tons of wood listed it is the only one rated at "very difficult" to work with hand tools.
Bummer.
Take heart though they may be full of beans. Why ? They list white oak as "easy" to work with hand tools. I wouldn't call it easy.

Also I wound up following the link posted by Jim Koepke lately to the H. O. Studely work bench (thank you Jim that was way cool ) and he not only made his rectangular bench dogs from ebony (I felt guilty making my vise handles from ebony) but he put one in each of about nine dog holes.
The top was banded in 1/2" x 1/2" ebony.

It was all ebony smebony to him so your much "softer" hickory should be a breeze.
Or not.

Everything I've read has hickory listed as one of the most difficult woods to work, and for the life of me I have yet to figure out why, specifically. I've ran into some interlocked grain, and some grain that changes direction (oddly). But it eats blades like crazy for some odd reason.

When I work QSWO, I find it an absolutely pleasure. Then again, the same with Jatoba after working hickory.

Have you ever worked hickory? I know you're all about purpleheart (I almost made my bench out of that). . .

[Chris Griggs]

I think white oak is pretty easy to work too (relatively), despite its hardness. Fine tuning joinery with a chisel can be tough just because the openness of the oaks can make them kinda splitty, but I think its easier to work with planes than hard maple, for instance....I could be nuts though


I don't really understand the desire to work really hard woods. I mean, I totally get that some woods that one would want to work for aesthetic purposes are quite hard and difficult...but I don't understand the desire to use hardwood just for the sake of its hardness. I get it for shop tools and workbenches (though still think its unnecessary), but I don't understand the desire to build furniture out of the hardest most difficult stuff one can find...Derek is stuck with it so I get that, but if you have access to the many wonderful moderately hard hardwoods of north America why punish yourself? That's not intended as a rip on you guys (Adam and Winton) BTW, I know your preference is for hardwoods and I know your reasoning. Just stating my thoughts. I just can't relate I guess...just don't get it.

[Adam Cruea]

It's all good, dude. I didn't see it as a rip.

My preference for the super-hard woods comes from the rarity people work them. Like for me, I viewed making my workbench out of hickory as something different; most people make them out of beech or oak or maple. You don't see much hickory, though.

There's also that hickory is highly shock resistant; that's why I make my "tools" out of it, and one reason I make my bench out of it. There was also just the utter challenge of it. I've never been one to like starting slowly into something, but instead diving in head-first and learning along the way. It's how I've learned technology, it's how I learned to ride a motorcycle (and bicycle), and it's how I've learned to woodwork. I don't know why, but I just like a super-steep learning curve.

Though, for a while, I did consider making a bench out of Jatoba. My dad had talked me out of using any super-dark woods, though, so that was another reason I settled on hickory.

I'm actually looking forward to making some outdoor furniture from Ipe for my wife; the reason is the durability. The stuff is hard to burn, highly insect resistant, and last but not least; not many people use it. :)

tl;dr version: I'm an odd duck and some wiring is short circuited. :p

[Chris Griggs]

It's all good, dude. I didn't see it as a rip.

My preference for the super-hard woods comes from the rarity people work them. Like for me, I viewed making my workbench out of hickory as something different; most people make them out of beech or oak or maple. You don't see much hickory, though.

There's also that hickory is highly shock resistant; that's why I make my "tools" out of it, and one reason I make my bench out of it. There was also just the utter challenge of it. I've never been one to like starting slowly into something, but instead diving in head-first and learning along the way. It's how I've learned technology, it's how I learned to ride a motorcycle (and bicycle), and it's how I've learned to woodwork. I don't know why, but I just like a super-steep learning curve.

Though, for a while, I did consider making a bench out of Jatoba. My dad had talked me out of using any super-dark woods, though, so that was another reason I settled on hickory.

I'm actually looking forward to making some outdoor furniture from Ipe for my wife; the reason is the durability. The stuff is hard to burn, highly insect resistant, and last but not least; not many people use it. :)

tl;dr version: I'm an odd duck and some wiring is short circuited. :p


That all makes sense. The hickory for tools I get, and the crazy stuff for out door furniture makes perfect sense. The challenge of it too makes sense...not something I enjoy...but I get wanting to challenge yourself. You get your giggles working hickory and ipe...I get mine seeing how many types of wood I can plane w/o tearout using stock irons and chipbreakers...or seeing how uneessiarily sharp I can get a paring chisel. Those things all have a purpose/reason, but at the same time they're not totally necessary, but its a hobby so do what you enjoy. Its not necessary for me to work wood with to begin with.

Anyway, thanks for clarifying; just something I was curious about.

[Ron Kellison]

Why don't we just acknowledge the elephant in the room? If we were "normal" we would buy all our wood from the Borg, cut it to shape using power tools, cut all our joints with a router and finish it with power tools. The only hand tools we would use would be screwdrivers, wrenches and pliers. The only finish we would use would be poly and all of our finishes would be glossy. We're eccentric compared to most woodworkers. Some of us are just stranger than others! ;)

I have a collection of really exceptional boards of curly cherry, birdseye cherry and maple, spalted maple, cocobolo, some hickory, English brown oak and QS Douglas fir. Apparently I'm a collector of wood I don't use! I build most of my stuff out of red oak, maple, ambrosia (soft) maple, pine and poplar. Someday I'll move on to actually using the special stuff!

[Adam Cruea]

Why don't we just acknowledge the elephant in the room? If we were "normal" we would buy all our wood from the Borg, cut it to shape using power tools, cut all our joints with a router and finish it with power tools. The only hand tools we would use would be screwdrivers, wrenches and pliers. The only finish we would use would be poly and all of our finishes would be glossy. We're eccentric compared to most woodworkers. Some of us are just stranger than others! ;)

I have a collection of really exceptional boards of curly cherry, birdseye cherry and maple, spalted maple, cocobolo, some hickory, English brown oak and QS Douglas fir. Apparently I'm a collector of wood I don't use! I build most of my stuff out of red oak, maple, ambrosia (soft) maple, pine and poplar. Someday I'll move on to actually using the special stuff!

Ugh! I wouldn't use pine unless someone held a gun to my head!

I've gotten too much pine from the Blue and Orange megaliths where it's just so full of resin and not properly dried. Bleeeeck!

Chris - You hit the nail on the head. . .it's a hobby, so do what you enjoy. There have been times where I haven't gone down to my basement for a few weeks because woodworking wouldn't make me happy or get my gander revved, but I don't *have* to do it because it's a hobby. I used to have a hobby with computers; not any more. I hardly even get on my computers because they're *work* now and I don't have a choice when I'm not in the mood.

That, and with a hobby, I can mull over things that are difficult and work them out better. No such luck with IT; when something is tough, I just have to tackle it regardless. It's not my choice.

[Chris Griggs]

Ugh! I wouldn't use pine unless someone held a gun to my head!

I've gotten too much pine from the Blue and Orange megaliths where it's just so full of resin and not properly dried. Bleeeeck!

Chris - You hit the nail on the head. . .it's a hobby, so do what you enjoy. There have been times where I haven't gone down to my basement for a few weeks because woodworking wouldn't make me happy or get my gander revved, but I don't *have* to do it because it's a hobby. I used to have a hobby with computers; not any more. I hardly even get on my computers because they're *work* now and I don't have a choice when I'm not in the mood.

That, and with a hobby, I can mull over things that are difficult and work them out better. No such luck with IT; when something is tough, I just have to tackle it regardless. It's not my choice.

I'm starting to like pine again...but I hate the BORG styrofoam stuff too. I would love to find a source for some high quality pine. I wonder if there is such a thing.

I learned my lesson about ruining hobbies when I was 18-20....I ruined my love of playing my music by trying to make a living at it. It wasn't until like 1 year after I went back to school and stopped trying to make a living at it that I actually started to enjoy it again. Becasue of that I am very careful not to let woodworking become something that I stress over. Periodically, I start to take it too seriously and then I enjoy it less, when that happen, I go watch reruns of Scrubs to reset my brain.

Obviously there are many folks out there with enough love and passion for their craft (whatever it is) that they still find lots of joy even when it is their work...but I'm not one of those people. For me the second it becomes something I need to do, the joy is sucked out. I don't mind getting paid to woodwork occasion, but I don't want to need to get paid for my woodwork..I enjoy my hobby too much for that.

[Adam Cruea]

I'm starting to like pine again...but I hate the BORG styrofoam stuff too. I would love to find a source for some high quality pine. I wonder if there is such a thing.

I learned my lesson about ruining hobbies when I was 18-20....I ruined my love of playing my music by trying to make a living at it. It wasn't until like 1 year after I went back to school and stopped trying to make a living at it that I actually started to enjoy it again. Becasue of that I am very careful not to let woodworking become something that I stress over. Periodically, I start to take it too seriously and then I enjoy it less, when that happen, I go watch reruns of Scrubs to reset my brain.

Obviously there are many folks out there with enough love and passion for their craft (whatever it is) that they still find lots of joy even when it is their work...but I'm not one of those people. For me the second it becomes something I need to do, the joy is sucked out. I don't mind getting paid to woodwork occasion, but I don't want to need to get paid for my woodwork..I enjoy my hobby too much for that.


Ditto. I made $20 making a small pencil cup. Yippee! But *needing* to make things so I can eat? Forget it.

Oddly, I had the same issue with music. I loved playing bassoon as a kid. I went to college for Classical Music Performance, and instantly started hating it. I've still not really recovered from that, though I have finally started missing playing bassoon. :)

[Chris Fournier]

It's all good, dude. I didn't see it as a rip.

My preference for the super-hard woods comes from the rarity people work them. Like for me, I viewed making my workbench out of hickory as something different; most people make them out of beech or oak or maple. You don't see much hickory, though.

There's also that hickory is highly shock resistant; that's why I make my "tools" out of it, and one reason I make my bench out of it. There was also just the utter challenge of it. I've never been one to like starting slowly into something, but instead diving in head-first and learning along the way. It's how I've learned technology, it's how I learned to ride a motorcycle (and bicycle), and it's how I've learned to woodwork. I don't know why, but I just like a super-steep learning curve.

Though, for a while, I did consider making a bench out of Jatoba. My dad had talked me out of using any super-dark woods, though, so that was another reason I settled on hickory.

I'm actually looking forward to making some outdoor furniture from Ipe for my wife; the reason is the durability. The stuff is hard to burn, highly insect resistant, and last but not least; not many people use it. :)

tl;dr version: I'm an odd duck and some wiring is short circuited. :p

I don't think that I would use any wood only because others don't, rather I'd choose woods that are suitable for the project in mind.

Ipe is used by plenty of people by the way. It is a commodity not a rarity. It is a fine choice for outdoor furniture, a poor choice for bragging rights I think. I have attached a photo of a bar that I made for a client. It is constructed of ipe, plywood and stainless steel. It is designed to be moved around and I fabricated the Johnson bar to make it easy to do so.

Ipe is a catch all trade name that actually refers to about 8 different South American species. As you work it in quantity you'll see that there are certainly different "types". It is unpleasant to work in my opinion and it is brutal on tooling.

[Ron Kellison]

Ugh! I wouldn't use pine unless someone held a gun to my head!

I've gotten too much pine from the Blue and Orange megaliths where it's just so full of resin and not properly dried. Bleeeeck!


I made a generalized statement when I said "we buy our wood for a Borg". I live in eastern Ontario and I'm blessed with the availability of good wood at reasonable prices. The pine I use is typically either old-growth pine or salvaged from old buildings or (sometimes) underwater. The maple and oak are first grade, often from a local sawyer. If I shop carefully, I can get air-dried maple and oak for about the same price as pine. I buy all my wood rough and mill it myself. I still have a small stash of old-growth clear pine that I picked up for less $1bf. Good clear poplar can be had for less than $2bf and flatsawn maple and red oak can be found for ~ $2 - 2.50bf.

There is no comparison between old growth pine and the crap sold by the Borgs! I actually enjoy working with the old stuff!

Ron

[Winton Applegate]

If you stand far enough back from your computer screen you will be able to tell what they are.
ha, ha,


Have I worked hickory ?
Oh yes . . . I am an old hand with hickory.

Ha, ha I'm lying. Here is my entire run with hickory; the handle in this lignum vitae plane adjusting mallet. Note instead of wedging the head end on I wet the end grain and peened it ala the Japanese chisel method of holding the steel rings on. Worked well. Seems like I read that I could do this with a mallet head so I tried it. I heated the handle to super dry it first for a tighter joint then assembled it and wet it for the peening. I enjoyed what little time I spent with the hickory.
http://i801.photobucket.com/albums/yy298/noydb1/roc%20cuts%20wood/IMG_0817_zps87e62919.jpg (http://s801.photobucket.com/user/noydb1/media/roc%20cuts%20wood/IMG_0817_zps87e62919.jpg.html)



Oak easy or hard to work?
I didn't have any problem planing it but I distinctly remember spending a life time or two attempting to rip saw it by hand. That was before I had learned much about sharpening handsaws but it was a brand new handsaw 6 t rip.


Why am I obsessed with working the harder wood ?

Here is the way it went and I have practically given up the hard stuff as it were. See latter part of this post for proof. No . . . honest . . . I have.

I wouldn't say I make furniture out of all that bubinga and purple heart. I made a couple of tables and one of those was a little end table just to experiment before I made our dinning table TOP.
http://i801.photobucket.com/albums/yy298/noydb1/IMG_0801.jpg (http://s801.photobucket.com/user/noydb1/media/IMG_0801.jpg.html)

I looked in Nick Engler's book to see what were the really STRONG, not necessarily hard, woods.
I found bubinga. I made a few tools out of it, various saw horses for the most part. I discovered then that is was fascinatingly beautiful.

Then I started to get serious about making a real woodworking bench. Because the bubinga is endangered and because it is hard to come by enough of it where I am to even make a table top let alone a work bench and because of the price, though I don't under stand why people are so adverse to putting some serious money into the main tool in a hand tool wood shop THE BENCH . . .

well I noticed that purple heart is about as strong, stiff, rigid, what have you and is fairly easy to come by in quantity here and is less expensive, a perk, and perhaps less endangered.

I went with purple heart for my bench. It just happened to be extra hard and it just happens to be a bastard to plane without tear out until one gets over that learning curve Adam mentioned.

I am laughing at myself again, ha, ha, ha because I am the opposite of the steep learning curve type and I DO NOT jump in with both feet. I stick a toe in the water, then back off and analyze the water on my toe until I exhaust all possible avenues of investigation. Then I analyze the air between my toes just to be sure I didn't miss anything that might prove interesting before I go back and stick just my foot in the water.

and on an on.

I enjoy the process . . . what can I say.
It is a hobby right ? Why not suck all the _______ (fill in the blank) that I can out of it.

That is one reason I just smile when someone tells me I am an amateur and I don't make my living from woodworking so I couldn't possibly know what I am talking about.

Yah.
Well when the phone is ringing and someone is wanting their furniture and the pro has a few others about to start calling and he has no experience with a process and picks the first one that gets his chestnuts out of the fire but has no time to explore all the other possibilities and permutations.
I say . . .
Yah. Well.
I have.

Anyway end of mini rant.

I have given up the hard stuff for the most part because I don't need those super strong properties in furniture. We liked the way the bubinga looked, that was a surprise that it was so beautiful, I was just looking for strong. We made the dining table out of the bubinga because we fell in love with the look of the stuff. Too endangered to keep hogging it up for everything though. So I am quitting the bubinga.

Look here's proof . . . see . . . walnut . . . nice and friendly like.

http://i801.photobucket.com/albums/yy298/noydb1/roc%20cuts%20wood/ThinbutCameOutOK_zpse9ad77c4.jpg (http://s801.photobucket.com/user/noydb1/media/roc%20cuts%20wood/ThinbutCameOutOK_zpse9ad77c4.jpg.html)

I will spend quite a bit of time with this stuff. You would be neander proud of me. These chest sides are all hand resawn, hand thicknessed/planed and even rub joined without clamps ! ! ! That was fun to learn. Amazing how well it works. Seriously cool.

For one project I have laid up some nice friendly primavera, it is all hand resawn from a thick plank and is acclimating under our bed. It's been about five years. Do yah suppose that is enough time?
Ha, ha,
I got to get back to that one soon.

I have some cherry I have not even begun to work for a nice little lamp stand, or work table or, entry table. What ever you want to call it.

Then it will be back to the wood store for some more walnut to make my first spice chest. Now that will be a dream project if I can make one of those ! ! !

So you see . . . I am not really focussed on working the hard stuff much. I just get all up on the soap box about some of the caviler sharpening comments . . .
maybe I shouldn't.
and some of the disparaging remarks about bevel up planes
maybe I shouldn't.

But if some body doesn't argue the other side it is going to get boring if we all agree.

I still say though that if one can sharpen to plane the hard and tearout prone stuff then they can plane anything.
And if one has a plane that will plane the above then that plane can handle about anything else so why dump it for another ?

Who knows, maybe I will (again) get interested in using the planes that "sound like a zipper" when hogging wood off . . .
but don't hold your breath.

[Chris Griggs]

Winton...you with walnut..I never thought I'd see the day :)

Actually very interesting to see a fuller picture of what you work and also what the history of your relationship with bubinga and purple heart is.



But if some body doesn't argue the other side it is going to get boring if we all agree.


I'll pick up a piece of purple heart next time I get some lumber and will do my darnest to prove you wrong. Though it still won't be that contentious and entertaining for you because I do like bevel up planes a lot. I just presently like BD planes slightly better for the work I do. My LA jack is an awful nice plane to use though, so who knows, maybe some day I'll betray my BD friends shed my chipbreakers and go BU...but I'm not ready to part with my chipbreakers yet.

[Adam Cruea]

I don't think that I would use any wood only because others don't, rather I'd choose woods that are suitable for the project in mind.

Ipe is used by plenty of people by the way. It is a commodity not a rarity. It is a fine choice for outdoor furniture, a poor choice for bragging rights I think. I have attached a photo of a bar that I made for a client. It is constructed of ipe, plywood and stainless steel. It is designed to be moved around and I fabricated the Johnson bar to make it easy to do so.

Ipe is a catch all trade name that actually refers to about 8 different South American species. As you work it in quantity you'll see that there are certainly different "types". It is unpleasant to work in my opinion and it is brutal on tooling.

I never said I only use it because others don't. However, that goes into part of the decision. I had 4 or 5 species to choose from for my bench; I chose hickory. My wife wants outdoor furniture to replace what I made with treated pine; I could go cypress, cedar, almost anything; however, in the part of the US where I am, you don't see much Ipe woods. It's something different. We've also had issues with termites on our property (the yack-arse that sold us the house never disclosed termites had been on the property), so I want something my wife can accidentally put in the yard, forget about, and not have to worry about those little jerks gnawing it to death.

However, for furniture inside the house, my wife wants to use maple, walnut, white oak, birch. . .lots of common woods. I'm okay with it. Give me an opportunity to make something out of super-hard woods, though, and I'll jump at it just for the challenge.

[Winton Applegate]

Purple heart and prove me "wrong".

Ha, ha, that't the stuff !
I will enjoy hearing about and seeing your experience.
Then I too will learn some things.

Purple heart is quite planeable bevel down.

Disclaimer:
The following comments are experiences as they related to me. Your results may vary. Planing purple heart is an inherently dangerous activity and can easily result in serious personal injury or death.
End of disclaimer
:)

For me it takes a back bevel. I now understand that if I set the chip breaker in the sweet spot it won't need a back bevel.
I never found the sweet spot.

I will say that if you try the purple heart that you try more than one plank and get in a stichiation where you have to take off a fair amount of thickness (but not enough to be able to bandsaw it off) over a largish area. For instance taking the wind out of a 8/4 plank.

I say more than one sample, because like most shipments of wood the mineral content and grain varies.
The first attempt I ever made on a little sample that had no figure and was quite bland looking gave me a run for my money and chip, chip, chipped out until I back beveled my LN #4. I wasn't jig sharpening back then, I was sharpening by hand and stropping on leather from Tandy"s. Of coarse I tried it without stropping as well.

I will save you a bunch of time and say that it is quite possible to plane purp with the above LN #4 it just isn't any fun and for a large area where a significant thickness is to be taken off to level it . . . it is positively masochistic. Ad to that an O1 blade and I think I would rather take up another sport . . . say . . . zebra riding.

Ha, ha, I miss Philip the plane maker

http://www.marcouplanes.com/

from Africa taking a break from all the BS there and last I heard was in New Zealand ( I hope you can and have returned to your home my friend). As I recall he is the one who enlightened me about zebra riding.

He said :

Don't.

[Winton Applegate]

:cool: Want something Wife :p can put in yard and not worry about and that termites ignore.


THIS could open up a whole new hobby for you ! ! ! ;)
Are you ready to add on a second shop ? :D
Learn a whole new aspect of sharpening and edge geometry. :o
Cut stuff as hard as steel ? :(
If you say yes to even one of these then I think you are ready to explore . . .
:)

:confused:

http://www.google.com/search?q=steel+lawn+furniture&safe=off&client=safari&rls=en&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=CEl5Uv_fHJL_qAHKsIGADg&ved=0CIcBELAE&biw=1171&bih=623


This is me in my real comfort zone. Woodworking is when I want to keep banging my head :eek: at something that is outside :mad: my comfort zone :rolleyes:.


http://i801.photobucket.com/albums/yy298/noydb1/IMG_0375_zps333a6a24.jpg (http://s801.photobucket.com/user/noydb1/media/IMG_0375_zps333a6a24.jpg.html)

PS: I finally got all the faces worked into one post and , my latest goal, in order.
PPS: and I made the photo too small. Sorry.
PPPS: I am not saying put the king size steel canopy bed I am working on in the yard.
PPPPS: Though you could. If you want to be different. Wife might not go for THAT different.
PPPPPS: Though when I was a kid living with my parents I slept nights outside on the patio all summer because it was too hot in the house.
PPPPPPS: but that's just me.

[William Rhodus]

After many years of working with a variety of domestic hardwoods, I obtained a large quantity of beautiful hickory lumber that resisted my best efforts with back saw, plane, and chisel. This caused me to reevaluate my saw sharpening skills from the perspective of sharpness, kerf width, and rake and made me a much better saw filer. This caused me to reevaluate my abilities to sharpen a plane iron from the perspective of sharpness, iron angle, micro bevels, etc. This caused me to reevaluate my abilities to properly sharpen my chisels from the perspective of sharpness, angle, micro bevels, steel composition, etc. This caused me to evaluate the application of the proper tool to the task from the perspective of plane width, bed angle, total iron angle, etc. In other words, this caused me to improve my skills to a much higher level than they were previously. It wasn't always fun, but it sure improved my game.

[Winton Applegate]

William,

That is a great post there.
ha, ha, I kept waiting for the other shoe to fall until the last though . . . I thought for sure you were going to say . . that reevaluating all those things finally caused you to reevaluate giving up your nice carbide tipped high speed power tools and so you decided to keep using those after all.