Our bank is going to start charging for online - so, this is my plan

[Rich Engelhardt]

If we pay a bill under $100 it's free.
$100 to $500 will cost $1.
Over $500 will cost $2.

I told my wife, fine, if that's what they want - don't make any single payment over $99.99.
If we want to pay $1,000.00 on a CC bill, we'll make 10 payments over 10 days of $99.99 and then a single payment of $.10.

They say more fees are due in Feb. of next year.

By that time, I hope we'll be former customers.

It's a real shame since we've been with the same bank since 1986.
Oh well - time to move on...

[Dwight Rutherford]

Got the same notice. Think I'll follow your example.

[Mike Henderson]

Wow, I hadn't ever heard of a bank doing that. I'll have to watch out for my bank.

Mike

[Stephen Cherry]

http://www.syracuse.com/news/index.ssf/2010/10/say_goodbye_to_traditional_fre.html

[Graeme Lunt]

we'll make 10 payments over 10 days of $99.99 and then a single payment of $.10.""

Is it worth it to save $2? What's your time worth?

[Tom Fischer]

Yes but ... all these institutions are moving toward attracting a wealthier customer base.
They call it Asset Management.
In the case of BOA, I think they have a threshold of maybe $10K total assets per account (checking + savings + CDs + Merrill Lynch securities, etc).
I think a $10K total account is free from most or all fees, + free printed checks. Pretty sure.
Not aware of any Bill Payer charges (ACH transfers) at BOA, ever.
All checking accounts (BOA) must be above $750 balance ALL THE TIME. Then no monthly fee on checks. Otherwise I think $12/month checking fee.
Bounced checks extra.
It doesn't seem that unreasonable to me.
***
Don't want to get dinged for political talk, but banks make money from people who have some money, and can manage it.
If (for whatever reason) a person does not fall into that category, the banks know that things will not work out well for anybody.

[phil harold]

Our Bank want to charge us for deposits because there is not automatic deposit on that checking account
but it is "free checking account"...

[Jerome Stanek]

Rich what bank is it? I wonder if our bank will start doing that.

[Chris Damm]

My former bank wanted everyone to use the ATMs so they started to charge for more than 2 teller transactions per month. Then they added ATM fees the same way. They lost 25% of their business the first week. I was with them since the late 60s....see ya! I'm still trying to find out what idiot came up with this plan. He is probably in DC now screwing up there!

[Chuck Wintle]

If we pay a bill under $100 it's free.
$100 to $500 will cost $1.
Over $500 will cost $2.

I told my wife, fine, if that's what they want - don't make any single payment over $99.99.
If we want to pay $1,000.00 on a CC bill, we'll make 10 payments over 10 days of $99.99 and then a single payment of $.10.

They say more fees are due in Feb. of next year.

By that time, I hope we'll be former customers.

It's a real shame since we've been with the same bank since 1986.
Oh well - time to move on...
Was just wondering of your bank also charges a monthly fee for keeping your account. So far my bank has not tried this but if it becomes accepted then they cannot be far behind.

[George Bokros]

One of the banks where we have some savings was recently taken over by First National out of PA. The new owners immediately started to charge $2 / month for paper statements and a small charge for electronic transfers to other financial institutions. They also made everyone re-sign up for the ability to make the electronic transfers. I already had this set up under the previous management.

Needless to say as my CD's mature I will be moving them to another bank where there is no charge for paper statements and no fee for regular electronic transfers, rush ones are charged for but I will never have the need for a rush transfer.

There is one bank in our market that charges no fees and has 24 hr grace for overdrafts. I will move to them if my primary bank for checking begins charging ridiculous fees. I remember when the banks were touting the ATM's now they charge fees for using other banks ATM's.

Guess if you don't have a million dollars in their bank they want to fee you to death, but those that can afford the fees get a free ride.

George

[Rich Engelhardt]

Rich what bank is it? I wonder if our bank will start doing that.
US Bank.



Is it worth it to save $2? What's your time worth?
Ha!
You betcha it is!!!

When I retired from the regular job market, I began a new career is the field of - "If they mess with me, I have all the time in the world to mess with them".
:D

[Curt Harms]

Sounds like an effort by the global banks to 'encourage' small/consumer customers to either pay more or go elsewhere. Works for me, I doubt I'll ever darken the doorway of a Chase or Bank of America. For someone who requires the services that only a megabank can provide, pony up.

[Mark Bolton]

Whether the objective is to save the 2$ or not it's the principal of it that's irritating to me. This has been a move for quite some time with many places charging fees. The paper statement fees kill me. When you go paperless the company profits. No paper, printing, envelope stuffing equipment, postage, and the reverse on the back side. I would assume processing that paper statement costs 2-4 dollars by the time it's all accounted for. If they want to incentivize paperless split it with me. Give me a 2$ statement credit to go paperless. Heck, give me a 2/mo credit for 12 months a and I'd probably fall for it. But going paperless, while more environmentally conscious , increases their profit without delivering anything.

What's happening around here is what many are seeing, just the opposite. My sanitation company charges 4.95 for a paper statement. Gas and phone have gone the same way .

My bank has now started with an annual fee just to have a debit card. I fear these other fees are to follow.

I have moved to nearly all online bill pay and enjoy it. Now that so many are in that routine, and the banks and companies are profiting from an easier format to get payment, they in their consumate corporate greed are going to exploit their customers yet again.

[Tom Giles]

Time to drop your bank and go to a Credit Union.

[glenn bradley]

What a broken model. The bank saves a ton by not having to open the mail, empty the deposit box/ATM and perform all the 'item processing' (a tremendous expense for any business) and in response, they want to charge you for saving them all that time/money . . . hmm. Change banks. A bank is like any other business; if you don't like how you are treated, go elsewhere.

[Jerry Thompson]

Ditto a Credit Union. I moved my account to one years ago and I am treated well and as a human being.

[Frederick Skelly]

Mark makes a good point - split it with me. Thats essentially what your credit card company does when you get "rewards" for using it - cash back, merchandise, airline miles, etc.

Im no banker, but Ive been assuming that they do "rewards" to encourage us to use the card because thats better for them too. (They dont work for free.) Seems like the net effect of using a card vs a check has to be that they make more money a variety of ways if I put it on a card. And Im guessing that free cards will go the way of free checking when enough business is done that way. But the consumer can use it as an option for now and if he pays off the balance every month, he comes out a little ahead.

Fred

[Brian Elfert]

I believe one of the financial institutions I do business with doesn't even offer paper statements at all. No option to pay extra for paper. They just don't offer them. I have paperless statements and billing set up with every entity I can do so with.

I've been using a credit union for my personal finances for about ten years now. I do so in part because they have an office in the same building where I work.

[Matt Meiser]

When looking around, credit unions weren't necessarily "all that". Limited locations, hours, and archaic online systems kept us from switching.

We went to 5/3. They aren't a small bank nor a huge bank. Seem to maintain a lot of local control and they are everywhere here. We moved some old 401(k)'s and were able to maintain a "relationship" that gets us fee-free services. It started with a refi. They did most of that locally and were great to work with.

As a final insult BoA made up some fee and took a 20 from us the last month we were with them.

[Phil Thien]

As a final insult BoA made up some BS fee and took a 20 from us the last month we were with them.

We had a regional bank here, M&I, that wanted to be a big player and lost their shirt, and was ultimately taken over by BMO Harris. And BMO Harris started changing the fee structure.

So my daughter, who banks there, moved her accounts over to my bank over the last few weeks, and then yesterday went to her BMO Harris branch to close her accounts. They wanted to charge her fees to close her two accounts!

I once had a CC with Harris Bank and had a bit of a dispute with them over a yearly fee that they added. IMHO, their ethics were questionable and I would never do any banking with anything associated with Harris.

[Mark Bolton]

My personal and business is with a small local bank. 2 locations. It has it's perks and pains. Very limited free ATM access (only the two locations), online banking is not as slick/flashy, and so on. But it's nice to be known when you walk through the door or call on the phone.

I rember this starting back in the 90's when I was with a big regional bank and they were charging a teller fee trying to force you to do ATM transactions. The same thing applies, the bank makes a fortune because they eliminate a salaried position, benefit package, and so on, by doing away with human tellers. A small IT department (or outsourced) can handle lots of transactions with few mouths to feed.

I fight this same fight at any store with self checkout. When a cashier wants to steer me to the self checkout wanting to "train" me how to use the machine I respond "when you offer me a 10-15% discount on my purchases I will check myself out". It's a win win for the corporations. They staff a store with 1/2 the people (look at Home Depot), they raise the prices, they reduce the quality, and NOW, they want me to be their uncompensated employee checking myself out and bagging my own stuff.

All the while they are posting profits and putting the screws to the customer.

It's a fight I'm not sure will be winnable given the masses too busy, distracted, tired, lazy, to fight just cave in.

[George Bokros]

"when you offer me a 10-15% discount on my purchases I will check myself out". I

I feel the same way. I only use the self checkout if I am in a real hurry, otherwise provide me with the service or give me a discount.

[Brian Elfert]

When looking around, credit unions weren't necessarily "all that". Limited locations, hours, and archaic online systems kept us from switching.


If you live in a large city there are probably many choices for credit unions. There is a good chance of one close to where you live or work. I will have to change credit unions if they don't open a new branch when my employer moves as the only other branch is 20 miles from home. Some of the credit unions are so large now that they as many branches locally as some national banks. If you need to visit branches in multiple cities or states then a credit union would not be the right choice.

The online banking at my credit union hasn't worked to do automatic downloads with Quicken since last spring. I talked to an IT person there and they said it would be fixed in a month. It still doesn't work. At least I can do manual downloads. Better than Bank of America that was charging $9.95 a month to be able to download transactions to Quicken.

[David Weaver]

I think you guys are all looking at this in the wrong direction, as to the reason the bank is doing it. The reason is very simple, they have earnings targets they want to meet. If they don't, their share values drop, and that's not an answer the board usually tolerates.

They used to be able to make a nice margin on the short term, but there is no return on short-term credit, so the only way to make that same margin would've been to take the money out of your accounts in the difference. That's certainly not going to happen.

So, they relied on the credit card model and the penalty model for deposit and checking, ordering withdrawals, etc. so that the maximum penalty could be extracted. Now penalties on credit cards have been limited somewhat, and presumably deposit went along with that, I'm not sure.

That doesn't leave many options, I guess it leaves 2. 1) try to work over the corporate clients and retirement trusts generating asset sales, etc. 2) start charging fees that individuals can't avoid, since the penalty and credit card models have been limited.

Well, banks that hold retirement and institutional trusts have a long history of slipping high fee investments into the trusts and making a significant amount of money on those trusts, but the model for that is changing, too, where sponsors are hiring a third party manager of investments, so the bank no longer has control over the assets in the trust and can't select investments that have expenses that make their way back to them. That leaves you to work on.

They're struggling to figure out anything they can to generate income, they're as much on the defensive as anything, they know what your reaction is going to be and they know people are going to leave, they're just betting they can make more on the folks who are still there and keep the board of directors happy.

But that doesn't matter, if you can get no fee services elsewhere, that's what I'd do. They can learn the hard way that what's good for the customer is usually good for them in the long term, even if it's not in the short term.

[Jim Matthews]

Time to drop your bank and go to a Credit Union.

+1 Did that last year, when I found that BOA paid zero tax in the US.
We keep a high balance, and they wanted to charge for every transaction.

The local Credit union isn't paying any more for the deposits,
but they process my monthly transactions without fees.

Banks work for us, and need reminding of their status.

[Michael Moscicki]

Credit Unions are the way to go.

As far as fees for paper statements, my credit union gives you $5 if you switch to paperless statements. They only charge a fee for paper statements if the mail is undeliverable to the sender. It has no minimum balance and free ATM's and has 2 to 4 free tellers at any given time.

Best of all is that you get to vote for the board of directors.

[Bill Cunningham]

In Canada, once your over 65, your account changes to no fees, free cheques, (checks) etc.. If I was in the U.S. what would worry me more are headlines like this Chase Bank Limits Cash Withdrawals, Bans International Wire Transfers (http://www.prisonplanet.com/chase-bank-limits-cash-withdrawals-bans-international-wire-transfers.html)

[Jim Matthews]

In Canada, once your over 65, your account changes to no fees, free cheques, (checks) etc.. If I was in the U.S. what would worry me more are headlines like this Chase Bank Limits Cash Withdrawals, Bans International Wire Transfers (http://www.prisonplanet.com/chase-bank-limits-cash-withdrawals-bans-international-wire-transfers.html)

You might want to reconsider using InfoWars as a primary source for actual information.
What Alex Jones publishes is more accurately described as War on Information.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/halahtouryalai/2013/10/17/no-jpm-isnt-banning-international-wire-transfers-no-limits-on-withdrawals-either/



If you're quoting Alex Jones as a news source, you're getting a very thin slice of the story -
the part designed to generate fear in the readership. He's not a journalist.

There are plenty of places that recycle this sort of thing, elsewhere.

[Myk Rian]

we'll make 10 payments over 10 days of $99.99 and then a single payment of $.10.""

Is it worth it to save $2? What's your time worth?
You asked the wrong person that.
Retirees have lots of Saturdays, and everybody else is working 5 of them.

[David Weaver]

I wonder if the chase thing has more to do with their inability to control fraud and money laundering.

I saw that last week. It may be that dealing with customers and investigations after fraud makes it so that it's not worth their time. If I was a small business, I'd have a local bank, anyway. They're just far better at dealing with day to day business needs.

[Brian Ashton]

we'll make 10 payments over 10 days of $99.99 and then a single payment of $.10.""

Is it worth it to save $2? What's your time worth?


Absolutely. Companies love apathy and they're banking on it. What making 10 payments instead of 1 will do is shift the expense back on them and waste a lot of their time. You need to, as a consumer, be vigilant or companies will continue to find more and more ways of gouging the consumer. In a few years that $2 will become $7 and then $10... if everyone sticks to their usual apathy.

[Rich Engelhardt]

I wonder if the chase thing has more to do with their inability to control fraud and money laundering.
Maybe - maybe not - but - the Alex Jones version of anything is more entertaining :D.

[David Weaver]

Maybe - maybe not - but - the Alex Jones version of anything is more entertaining :D.

haha...I got a chuckle out of it. Figure if they tweeted about it, the statement part of the story that they're limiting transactions on some of those accounts appears to be correct.

I looked around a little bit and saw Chase's response to the story. These are the two things they said:
* no, we're not limiting transactions on the accounts
* yes, we sent those letters and you can't have deposits and withdrawals greater than $50k and no international transfers

Seems like they're saying two different things. Their response followed that by saying they want you to upgrade to an account that has a representative attached to it if you don't want to deal with those limits. The upgraded accounts have higher fees. They called it "derisking".

It looks like a combination of derisking and fee generation. Reading between the lines of their responses, they have small businesses with several of those accounts and they're trying to force them into one larger higher-fee account. Goes back to my response on another post, if they can't make money on the deposits, they'll push you in another direction to try to make money, and they certainly aren't going to take on more risk than they absolutely have to if the deposits aren't earning much of a margin.

[Rick Potter]

+1 on credit unions. As with anything, there are credit unions and there are credit unions. I have belonged to mine since 1966 when it was in the basement of an office. It is now huge, but still only has two locations. Almost everything is done on line, or by phone. No charge for checks or checking, balance requirement is $5.00, and they once accepted a collect call from Windsor Castle, England, when my card was deactivated because we forgot to tell them we were out of town.

My nearest location is almost 40 miles away, and I only go there to take out a loan, or change a PIN number. We went their to change PIN's a couple months ago, the first time in at least two years. Many CU's belong to networks, and we use a local CU ATM for deposits/cash withdrawals at no charge. We can also use a local CU office on the network to have a cashiers check made, at no charge. Basically, we have no problem living a distance from the two actual buildings they have.

For years, we have listened to friends problems with their banks, and constantly changing programs, or merger/takeovers, and just shake our heads when we can't get it across to them that we have had only minor glitches in 45 years with our CU.

Knock on wood.
Rick Potter

[Matt Meiser]

Don't get me wrong. We belong to a credit union to which I've belonged since I graduated from college. We keep a small savings account there and have our car loans there. They are the best rate every time I've checked and we've refinanced with them a couple times to get even better rates and they are really easy to work with remotely other than confusion every time due to differences on how titles are handled state to state. When I lived where they are it was great, we even had an ATM at work. Now its harder to deal with them and signing something can take days so we don't use them as much.

None of the CU's in our county are more than 2 branches with...um...banker's hours :D

[Brian Elfert]

Credit unions have a shared banking program that is nationwide, but fewer and fewer credit unions are participating. It doesn't help if you want to do anything more than deposits/withdrawals anyhow. I went to another credit union once and had the strangest teller experience ever. All of the tellers were at a central location and you saw them on a video screen.

There are some things banks are better at. More branches and longer hours can be big for some folks. Of course, it wasn't that long ago that banks were only open 8-5 and maybe a few hours on Saturday.

[Art Mann]

Absolutely. Companies love apathy and they're banking on it. What making 10 payments instead of 1 will do is shift the expense back on them and waste a lot of their time. You need to, as a consumer, be vigilant or companies will continue to find more and more ways of gouging the consumer. In a few years that $2 will become $7 and then $10... if everyone sticks to their usual apathy.

Banks aren't in the business of satisfying customers. They are in the business of making money for the owners/stockholders. That is the way it has always been and there is nothing ethically or morally wrong with that in my opinion. The other side of that coin is that customers have every right to take their business elsewhere. The whole economic system works for everyone because of competition. Banks who charge their customers too much for their services deserve to be put out of business by their competition. Customers who are unwilling to inform themselves and shop elsewhere deserve to be ripped off.

[Greg R Bradley]

Trying to push your CC payment from your bank to the CCC may be the wrong way to do it. Virtually all CCC allow you to pay their bill on-line and pull the payment from your bank. This has the additional benefit of being able to schedule the payment on the due date and not having to worry about some delay making it late. Between 3 businesses and personal CC, I pay 14-18 CC each month and never have a problem.

In any case, most CC will not allow you to pay the account that way. Some CCC will only allow a total of 3 payments per month. Some only allow payments every 3 days. Some have other restrictions. Even if a CCC allows that, you would risk AA in some form. Even if it doesn't trigger some AA right away, suspicious activity such as lots of small payments will raise your risk. You do need to look at this from the point of view of the CCC. They don't know why you are doing this, only that it is unusual behavior.

[Rick Potter]

As I said before there are credit unions, then there are credit unions. Don't know about networks shrinking, but got curious and checked mine. They have 40,000 members, there are 10 brick and mortar network credit unions within 10 miles of me, and we can now use ATM's at 7-11 also. I don't have a smart phone, so I wasn't aware you can deposit checks by smart phone, as well as other apps.

Rick Potter

[Matt Meiser]

I don't have a smart phone, so I wasn't aware you can deposit checks by smart phone, as well as other apps.

Yeah, that feature is awesome. Oddly with a bigger bank, I need to said bank less often than I would with a small bank/CU that wouldn't offer as much technology.

[Jim Matthews]

haha...I got a chuckle out of it. Figure if they tweeted about it, the statement part of the story that they're limiting transactions on some of those accounts appears to be correct.
... if they can't make money on the deposits, they'll push you in another direction to try to make money, and they certainly aren't going to take on more risk than they absolutely have to if the deposits aren't earning much of a margin.

So it's about a Bank, making money after all?
Who wuddathunk it?

The only similar gouge I deal with is the "customs fee" FedEx and UPS charge to move a package from one side of a building to another - "processing" it.
It's often the most expensive 1/4 mile of the trip to Canada.

[David Weaver]

So it's about a Bank, making money after all?
Who wuddathunk it?


That would've been my guess, just like the fees thread. Banks do like to make money, and the BOD and others don't really like "let's be humanitarians and just absorb that for the benefit of shareholders". its' more like "We haven't figured out how to manage those accounts, so we'd like to put a person on those accounts as a watcher...erm...ahem, account represenatative - and you can pay for it".

I usually figured that's what it is. Worked for a public company for a good part of my working lifetime and there are definitely points given for creativity in evading just saying "pay us more for the same thing" straight out.

The BOD in the case of the bank may set a target for revenues, and then it filters down and at some level, it gets to the product managers for various areas who say "We don't have enough accounts to make that revenue and we're not getting a margin on deposits", and they're told "either find more accounts or increase the revenue on your current accounts by 10% some other way".

Some guy who has credit card bills, two ex wives and four kids gets real creative in that scenario and goes to IT and starts asking for all kinds of things. Like how much is lost on fraud on various accounts, how many people appear to be using several smaller accounts to evade a service that the bank feels is more appropriate for those people, etc.

How's that for a made up scenario?

[Brian Elfert]

As I said before there are credit unions, then there are credit unions. Don't know about networks shrinking, but got curious and checked mine. They have 40,000 members, there are 10 brick and mortar network credit unions within 10 miles of me, and we can now use ATM's at 7-11 also. I don't have a smart phone, so I wasn't aware you can deposit checks by smart phone, as well as other apps.


The network I was talking about is the shared banking network. One can walk into a credit union that they are not a member of and make a deposit or withdrawal at the teller window. It has nothing to do with ATM networks. The shared banking network has shrunk significantly in recent years, at least in the Minneapolis area. Each credit union makes its own decision on what ATM network to join. My credit union uses the Moneypass network so I can use most any US Bank ATM at no charge along with others.

[Brian Elfert]

I am the treasurer for a Boy Scout troop. We use a small local bank for our account. They charge us no fees and no minimum balance. They even have free billpay that saves us on checks and postage. We used to bank at a national bank, but they charged per item deposited and levied other fees.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

I think you guys are all looking at this in the wrong direction, as to the reason the bank is doing it. The reason is very simple, they have earnings targets they want to meet. If they don't, their share values drop, and that's not an answer the board usually tolerates.

They used to be able to make a nice margin on the short term, but there is no return on short-term credit, so the only way to make that same margin would've been to take the money out of your accounts in the difference. That's certainly not going to happen.

So, they relied on the credit card model and the penalty model for deposit and checking, ordering withdrawals, etc. so that the maximum penalty could be extracted. Now penalties on credit cards have been limited somewhat, and presumably deposit went along with that, I'm not sure.

That doesn't leave many options, I guess it leaves 2. 1) try to work over the corporate clients and retirement trusts generating asset sales, etc. 2) start charging fees that individuals can't avoid, since the penalty and credit card models have been limited.

Well, banks that hold retirement and institutional trusts have a long history of slipping high fee investments into the trusts and making a significant amount of money on those trusts, but the model for that is changing, too, where sponsors are hiring a third party manager of investments, so the bank no longer has control over the assets in the trust and can't select investments that have expenses that make their way back to them. That leaves you to work on.

They're struggling to figure out anything they can to generate income, they're as much on the defensive as anything, they know what your reaction is going to be and they know people are going to leave, they're just betting they can make more on the folks who are still there and keep the board of directors happy.

But that doesn't matter, if you can get no fee services elsewhere, that's what I'd do. They can learn the hard way that what's good for the customer is usually good for them in the long term, even if it's not in the short term.

David, one of the main reasons that the banks are not making the money on short term loans is that small business was a major customer of such a product. The government in their infinate wisdom passed the Dodd-Frank act that radically changed the FDIC oversight and threat to the banks. Many of the bank's short term notes were downgraded, causing noncompliance, and the specter of the fed shutting the bank down. It happened in many places, especially in banks that appealed to small businesses. The act de facto forced banks to radically change qualifications for loans to force their pool of loans into a higher rating. Most banks now have tremendous amounts of cash now, but very few loans, because it is so historically hard to qualify. Interest rates are so low though, that they are making very little on the few loans they can make. Further, the loans they are making are to the most well qualified, who have the ability and leverage to shop for nearly zero margin money. To support operations and make a margin, they are forced to raise revenue from other avenues, as you pointed out. It's bad for small business as well as the banks.

[Michael Schneider]

It is hard to find small banks anymore. There are some pretty nice credit unions around here. You might talk to some local credit unions.


Take care,
Michael

[Harry Hagan]

Remember when Verizon Wireless announced they were going to start charging customers a fee for paying their accounts online?

Apparently quite a few customers shared my sentiments and Verizon nixed that idea. I let them know I’d be taking my business elsewhere.

[Bill Cunningham]

You might want to reconsider using InfoWars as a primary source for actual information.
What Alex Jones publishes is more accurately described as War on Information.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/halahtouryalai/2013/10/17/no-jpm-isnt-banning-international-wire-transfers-no-limits-on-withdrawals-either/





If you're quoting Alex Jones as a news source, you're getting a very thin slice of the story -
the part designed to generate fear in the readership. He's not a journalist.

There are plenty of places that recycle this sort of thing, elsewhere.

Well 'I Guess' your right for anyone that can keep 50k on deposit..If you can't then I guess you can't import anything that requires a international bank transfer.. But if YOU have the money in your account for the transfer and the bank won't give it to you, it makes me wonder if they actually have as much money as they say they do, and just 'where' is YOUR money? |I certainly wouldn't be doing business with a bank like that, particularly when they can't or wont give me my own money!