Why use a #3 vs #4 plane?

[Frederick Skelly]

I've been wondering about the quality and performance of Woodriver's Version 3 planes since we last discussed them here. So curious that when they went on sale I ordered a #3 for $104, just to see what I think. In a worst case, I figured I'd write a simple review, post it here and sell the tool after a few months.

Frankly, I chose the #3 because it was their cheapest and it doesn't (quite) duplicate something I already own. (I have several #4s - people just keep giving them to me - and a #5 Frankenplane I restored over the summer.) In terms of size, I don't really see much difference between a #3 and a #4 (actually a MF #9). They look to be within about 1/4" of each other in both length and width. The #3 uses a 1.75" blade and the #4 uses a 2" blade.

So, why would I use a #3 if I already own a well tuned #4? Are they especially good at something that I'd want to hold onto it instead of sell it? From their ads, one good reason to keep it may be that it's based on the Stanley Bedrock design. We'll see if that's a real differentator for me, I guess. What else can you think of folks?

Thanks guys,
Fred

[Chris Griggs]

3's are nice for a board that you want to smooth but has cupped a bit, since you prepped it, and/or for smoothing localized areas. A smaller plane means to can smooth into dips and such more easily. They're just kinda nice in some situations. Also, they can be nice on smaller work pieces. Not really essential if you have a no. 4. Personally, I think a no. 4 is the perfect size smoother for just about any situation but again, a 3 is nice to have in some situations. I like 3s an awful lot, but more often than not I grab a 4.

[Sam Joyce]

A No.3 can be easier to push especially if your using a high angle frog. I love my HA#3 Lie Nielsen on tougher or figured woods for just this reason.

[bridger berdel]

I keep my #3 set up really tight- sharpened to a higher degree than i would for most planes, with the chipbreaker closer and the mouth tighter. I generally smooth with a #4, set up a little more aggressively. when I get into a bit of wild grain or something out comes the #3. if I did general smoothing with a plane set up like that I'd either be making such fine shavings that I'd be at it all day or else constantly fighting to keep from choking it with chips.

[Don Dorn]

I use a heavy set #3 for shaping (bullnoses, chamfers, etc), as it's just handier for me than the #4 for that. My #4 is is a general smoother, but a fine set #4.5 sees a lot of time too.

[Jim Koepke]

For me it all about the size of the piece being worked. Smaller work = smaller plane.

That is kind of simplistic. A #3 also makes a good size for a scrub plane. For my scrub an old junker #5-1/4 is used. It has the same size blade as a #3. I also have a nicer #5-1/4 set up for a short jointer when working small sized pieces.

When it comes you will either find you like it and it is worthy of space on your shelf or you will sell it and be happy knowing you have all the smoothers you need.

Having a few #4s my #3 is usually kept as a super smoother. Its blade is usually kept sharp and if some small area is giving me a problem the smaller smoothers are put on to the task.

jtk

[bridger berdel]

I use a heavy set #3 for shaping (bullnoses, chamfers, etc), as it's just handier for me than the #4 for that.

isn't that what block planes are for?

[Matthew N. Masail]

I have the woodriver No.3, got it on sale too almost 2 years ago. I don't have a No.4 or 4.5 so can't compare but I really do like this plane, it's a solid performer. I find myself liking a 2inch inch wide plane for general use, but I love that the No.3 feels good on smaller work.

[Frederick Skelly]

Thank you guys. This helps me a lot. Ill let you know what I make of it when I get it checked out.
Fred

[Don Dorn]

isn't that what block planes are for?

Never really been a block plane person anyway, but once I saw Paul Sellers use a standard bench plane for that, I realized how handy and quick it might be - and it is.

[Winton Applegate]

Fred,

Hey there is a thread I can sink my teeth into.
Add a bit of perspective, wit and point out the silly way we humans behave all in one. Please smile when you read this . . . I am not all that serious about the topic.

First I agree that a slightly smaller plane is significantly better for some tasks such as smoothing harder wood (less effort per stroke but more strokes).

Second gets into very subtle undulations in the surface for that final finishing stroke or two.

I really like THE SIZE of a #3.
But
At least when if comes to the LN #3 (and I assume the one you mention) I don't like the Stanley configuration assuming the Woodriver has the same problem. See photo of wrist hitting edge of work. This photo is a reenactment without the plane; I returned the LN because I found I just could not change my grip enough to use the plane.

For this size plane, as I have posted recently, I prefer the LV bevel up block with the full size optional handle . MY FAVORITE PLANE.

As far as the fact that people keep giving you #4s that should be a clue as to generally how valued a BD plane is to start with.
:)
Like litters of puppies only one feels less bad when one throws a bag full of them into the river. OK that was bad, bad but I couldn't help it.
:)

See one person likes the #3 for extra fine work and one person likes the #3 for scrubbing. That was what I said in the past about the LV bevel up block with the full size optional handle. Versatile !


SIMPLICITY of the BD verses the BU and more blades
. . . until . . . you want the throat set tight but it is choking and taking all day . . . I wish it was a little more open but . . . I will just grab ANOTHER ENTIRELY DIFFERENT PLANE to do what an easily achieved minor adjustment to the BU plane's throat could.

We are a silly lot aren't' we ?

I suppose in the end only you can say whether or not you like the #3 and want to keep it but that is my dollar and a half. (two cents adjusted for current equivalent)


http://i801.photobucket.com/albums/yy298/noydb1/3getsmertthr.jpg (http://s801.photobucket.com/user/noydb1/media/3getsmertthr.jpg.html)

And yes that is a permanent tattoo !
My only other tattoo says "I hate tattoos". :)

[Frederick Skelly]

Thanks Win! You brought a smile to my face.
Fred

[Prashun Patel]

Imho this is a personal decision. I prefer a 3 to a 4 for smoothing because it just fits me better. Try it and decide for yourself.

[Chris Fournier]

Planes are graduated in size not for how they fit the user, they are graduated in size in reference to the planing task. Does a #7 fit me better than a #2? No. Is the #4 likely the best fit in my hands? Yes. Would I grab a #4 to joint a 4' edge or start smoothing the face of an 8"W X 60"L board? No.

It's perfectly simple. As you are working a surface to flat and finished you will start with a scrub, then big # and move to small # to work out surface imperfections. All of this opinion being discussed here is only conversation and chatter.

When I have a #4 situation to clean up I use the #4. If the situation is smaller then I use a #3, #2 or block plane. Would I use a #4 to clean up a #7 situation? Again no.

All planes fit differently in my hands and quite frankly I enjoy holding and using all of them. Is a #3 better than a #4? This is a silly question.

Is a driver better than a putter? Anyone?

[Prashun Patel]

I agree that a putter cannot do the job of a driver. But there are plenty of times that a 9 iron can do the job of an 8. Thats what we are comparing here. The functional differences between adjacent clubs and planes is not as different as everyone thinks. It is rarely the case that there is only one bench plane for the job.

I have never found a case where my number 3 cannot do what my 4 did (i in fact sold my 4 and only have a 3 now). In my hands those two planes are functional substitutes for each other.

[Jim Matthews]

I like the #3, but it's a little small to hold comfortably.

The #4 was the plane used most in my training, and it's like an extension of my intentions;
I'm not wondering what it will do, in most applications.

Larger planes are too heavy for me to use for very long, unless it's a specific application.

Smaller planes are easy to manipulate, and can take things out of square when I'm careless.

Just over a hundred dollars might not be a great deal of "mad money" but the utility may be slim.

[David Weaver]

There is probably a reason that more 4s sold than anything else. I went through an early venture where "bigger certainly must be better" and had 5 different 4 1/2s for reasons that don't have anything to do with woodworking, and now i have none. I'd rather have 1 #4 smoother than half a dozen of anything else. This is one case where it's better to go with the flow and not be a contrarian.

I don't use a block plane for anything, either. haven't for a while. And the first time I realized a wooden common pitch smoother was easier to use in bulk planing to a marked line on the endgrain on the end of one of my panels, that was the end of the BU planes, too. A bone stock stanley #4 will do all of it just fine, stock iron and all.

[Jim Koepke]

There is probably a reason that more 4s sold than anything else.

It might have been because that is what all the local hardware stores stocked.

Maybe the bigger stores in more urban areas had the full line. Most likely the smaller hardware stores out of the city only stocked a few sizes.

jtk

[steven c newman]

I have about four of both the #3 and the #4 sized planes. They seem to get equeal billing when I reach for a smoother. Perhaps, when the stock is a bit on the narrow side, a #3 seems to work better, less tippy. Like smoothing the faces on tapered legs, a #4 is usually just too wide. When things get a bit wider, then a #4 is used. Not so much in length, as in width. Of course, pushing around a #4 that weighs almost twice that of a #3 tends to get a bit tiresome on a long day.

[David Weaver]

No clue what the local hardware stores stocked, but I'd imagine that, too, was driven by what craftsmen liked the most.

[bridger berdel]

I think that this thread is drifting a bit :)

I have 1 each of #2, #3, #6, #7 and #8. I have a pile of #4s and #5s. the #2 and #6 I inherited, the #8 I paid $75 for on ebay (and still had to do a fair bit of work to it). the rest were picked up inexpensively or were given to me. most of them if not all required work to become functional. I enjoy doing that kind of thing, and I'm happy to have a full stable to work with.

the #4 and #5 size are prevalent for several reasons. first, because they are the most generally useful. with proper setup they can do everything from scrub duty to fine finish work. since they use the same blade you can set up with those two bodies and 3 or 4 blade+chipbreaker combinations and cover the bulk of planing tasks. straightening long edges is a lot more fun if you have a #7 or #8 at hand, and smoothing small areas of radically figured grain is more fun if you have a #2 or a #3 (I'd enjoy having a #1 to try, but so far I haven't had one fall in my lap...).

[Winton Applegate]

stock stanley #4 will do all of it
Say most of it.


more 4s sold than anything else
I suppose you are thinking of a time pre seventies. Thirties ? In any case I worked in a fairly large hardware store in high school in the mid seventies. We sold every thing from nails by the pound and fertilizer to bicycles, table place settings . . . everything but guns I think. Seems like I recall we had ammo but not sure.

We had an honest to goodness dynamite room in the basement. No longer had dynamite in it by the time I started working there.

I bought this plane during that time on employee discount. I suppose we had some smaller ones but this seemed to be the main one. What is it ? A number five ?

http://i801.photobucket.com/albums/yy298/noydb1/IMG_2402_zpsab6ecc24.jpg (http://s801.photobucket.com/user/noydb1/media/IMG_2402_zpsab6ecc24.jpg.html)


Anyway this is what I monkeyed with for a long time. It planes wood.
When I began learning REAL woodworking . . .

you can't see it but I am shaking my head.

I SURE as heck wouldn't want to dress this plank with that.
http://i801.photobucket.com/albums/yy298/noydb1/Littleguysbutstronglikebull_zps70f40e89.jpg (http://s801.photobucket.com/user/noydb1/media/Littleguysbutstronglikebull_zps70f40e89.jpg.html)

Let alone several of them to make a project.
Ask me how I know this with out a doubt .
Because I tried it.

and once a guy has gone like that it is perplexing why one would want to go back to buzz, chatter and quick dull.

OK I showed you mine now show me yours.
Where have you used a similar plane to do a fairly significant quantity of similar work ?

A few shavings is one thing.
01 and bevel down on a PILE of the hard stuff is ANOTHER.

all of it ?

[Winton Applegate]

http://i801.photobucket.com/albums/yy298/noydb1/LilGuy.jpg (http://s801.photobucket.com/user/noydb1/media/LilGuy.jpg.html)
I bought it for a paper weight, literally, but find I use it often.
I hope one falls your way soon.
This one is the anniversary Woodcraft plane (20th or 25th I can't remember now) anyway, way later it went on sale and I snagged it. It still cost some money though. White bronze. It is a sweet heart as long as you don't try to get too far out of it's capabilities.

Sorry the photo is huge. That is the size I already had on Photobucket.

[Jim Koepke]

Sorry the photo is huge.

It appears larger than life.

jtk

[Michael Ray Smith]

I agree that a putter cannot do the job of a driver. But there are plenty of times that a 9 iron can do the job of an 8. Thats what we are comparing here. The functional differences between adjacent clubs and planes is not as different as everyone thinks. It is rarely the case that there is only one bench plane for the job.

Bingo. (I'm not a golfer, but I get the analogy.)

I don't have nearly as many planes as some do, but I have more than I need. For smoothing, I have a Stanley No. 2, MF equivalents of Nos. 3, 4, and 4 1/2, and a LV BU block plane with the tote and knob. I hardly ever use the No. 3 or No. 4, and I could probably get by without the No. 2. Heck, if I had to, I think I could do everything I need to do with the LV BU block plane (a VERY versatile tool!!) and a jointer.

[Adam Cruea]

Say most of it.


I suppose you are thinking of a time pre seventies. Thirties ? In any case I worked in a fairly large hardware store in high school in the mid seventies. We sold every thing from nails by the pound and fertilizer to bicycles, table place settings . . . everything but guns I think. Seems like I recall we had ammo but not sure.

We had an honest to goodness dynamite room in the basement. No longer had dynamite in it by the time I started working there.

I bought this plane during that time on employee discount. I suppose we had some smaller ones but this seemed to be the main one. What is it ? A number five ?

http://i801.photobucket.com/albums/yy298/noydb1/IMG_2402_zpsab6ecc24.jpg (http://s801.photobucket.com/user/noydb1/media/IMG_2402_zpsab6ecc24.jpg.html)


Anyway this is what I monkeyed with for a long time. It planes wood.
When I began learning REAL woodworking . . .

you can't see it but I am shaking my head.

I SURE as heck wouldn't want to dress this plank with that.
http://i801.photobucket.com/albums/yy298/noydb1/Littleguysbutstronglikebull_zps70f40e89.jpg (http://s801.photobucket.com/user/noydb1/media/Littleguysbutstronglikebull_zps70f40e89.jpg.html)

Let alone several of them to make a project.
Ask me how I know this with out a doubt .
Because I tried it.

and once a guy has gone like that it is perplexing why one would want to go back to buzz, chatter and quick dull.

OK I showed you mine now show me yours.
Where have you used a similar plane to do a fairly significant quantity of similar work ?

A few shavings is one thing.
01 and bevel down on a PILE of the hard stuff is ANOTHER.

all of it ?

I don't think there are many folks that plane the hard stuff or steel consistently. :p

When I was making my bench (hickory), I used everything from my #4 for spot planing to the #8 for full-on 6 ft apron planing.

I'd like to get a #3 and #2 for even smaller spot planing. I picked up a LN #1 when I was in Maine this year (as in, physically picked it up). I looked at my wife and said "hey, you might be able to use this for your projects!"

[steven c newman]

And, did you have to duck after that?

Been using both a Stanley 4square #5-1/4 and a millers falls #8 on some legs for a small table. Sometimes anything wider just don't fit the wood. Have four jack planes on hand, they are just too wide and long for these 5/4 x 5/4 x 20" legs. No sooner start the #DE6c on a leg, than i am already at the other end. Might even give the WWII Wards Master #3 a try on them.....

[Adam Cruea]

And, did you have to duck after that?

Been using both a Stanley 4square #5-1/4 and a millers falls #8 on some legs for a small table. Sometimes anything wider just don't fit the wood. Have four jack planes on hand, they are just too wide and long for these 5/4 x 5/4 x 20" legs. No sooner start the #DE6c on a leg, than i am already at the other end. Might even give the WWII Wards Master #3 a try on them.....

The wife actually giggled about it.

There's a running joke in the house that if I can easily use something, my wife will need something about 1/2 to 1/4 the size because I make heavy things seem very light. For example, when I handed her the #8 jointer with one hand, she was expecting something lighter and she made the comment "Thanks, Hercules. . ."

[bridger berdel]

. . . until . . . you want the throat set tight but it is choking and taking all day . . . I wish it was a little more open but . . . I will just grab ANOTHER ENTIRELY DIFFERENT PLANE to do what an easily achieved minor adjustment to the BU plane's throat could.

We are a silly lot aren't' we ?


I assume that that is a response to my post.

no problem with your solution, as long as it works for you. me, I prefer to have smoothing planes with chipbreakers. and I keep my planes close at hand, so it's not like switching is an issue. and I don't even have to fiddle with the settings.

besides, I'm a cheapskate bottom feeder tool accumulator- no way I'm gonna fork out the cash for no boutique BU bling arn :)

[Winton Applegate]

I assume that that is a response to my post

Well it started before yours but I used your comment about throat setting to illustrate to the people saying, basically, that 'one BD with a chip breaker can do it all and that there is no need for BU with different cutting angles. They have been saying one plane with one blade is better than one plane with several blades.

I too use many planes. I was just saying if it is one plane we are talking about then the modern BU is MORE versatile and can fill more shoes and CAN INDEED do it all and do it better than the old "take the plane apart to mover the frog" BD.

I obsess on the hard stuff but I am continually surprised at some of the comments I see about the BU being just a gimmick and the BD plane O' plane O' is all one needs. If a person likes to stay in the middle of the road with the friendly woods that is great ! I love walnut, I understand why mahogany became the premiere cabinet wood (working it is soooooooo easy) and it can be made to look pretty).

But to those who get all " who needs BU" and "plane Jane plane can do it ALL" . . .

well . . . there needs to be some interjection of awareness for those new people who might take this as true for all wood in all situations across the spectrum.

Of course I leave the gate open to be shown the light and the TRUE WAY of the BD plane O' but . . . so far . . .
well lets just say I haven't put thee old BUs out to pasture yet.

[Derek Cohen]

I could just echo all Winton has written, but that would not add to the discussion.

Rather than make this about BU versus BD, I'll offer my thoughts on plane size.

There are two dimensions here: length and width.

Plane length is relevant when one is wanting to avoid altering the dimensions, in which case the shorter the plane the better. Traditional coffin smoothers range from about 6" - 7". Compare this with the LN #4, which is 9 1/2" long. The #4 1/2 is 10 3/8" long.

Plane - or rather blade - width is relevant when planing wide boards and interlocked grain. BD planes with high cutting angles are harder to push (although this vastly improved with a lick of candle wax on the sole), and there is an advantage in reducing the width of the blade to reduce resistance when planing. A #4 is 2" wide and a #4 1/2 is 2 3/8" wide. Unless one is smoothing a wide panel, I would rather use the narrower plane.

My personal preference for all moderate-to-small work is not a #4 but a #3. This is 9" long and 1 3/4" wide. I use mine with a 55 degree frog, and still need to help the cutting action on interlocked wood with the chip breaker. I have a #4 1/2 as well, also with a 55 degree frog, since I only work with hardwoods.

In choosing a LN my vote goes to the bronze versions over the iron. You get a little more mass here, and concentrated mass is a good thing. What I mean by this is that very high mass a plane is not really helpful as the plane is hard work, tiring, and you lose feedback. Higher mass is better, nevertheless, but best when the mass is concentrated over a small area. A small plane that weighs as much as a larger plane has the same momentum advantage as the larger plane but without the disadvantages of size. Consequently I went for bronze.

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Planes/Lie%20Nielsen/LN2.jpg

Incidentally, if you have larger hands like mine (not the girlie hands of Winton :) ), and are avoiding a #3 because of the smaller handle, if you use a high angle frog (#55 degree work, I'm not sure of 50 degrees), you can fit the #4 handle - which is what I did.

What of the BU alternatives?

I have the LV Bevel Up Smoother (BUS) - think of this as a #4 1/2; the LA Smoother - think of this as a #4; and the Small BUS - think of this as a #3. The BUS is one of the best smoothers I have ever used. With a high cutting angle (62 degrees) it just tames everything thrown at it. However it is a large plane (also 10 3/8" long, with a 2 1/4" wide blade). My favourite is the Small BUS. It is 9" long and uses a 1 3/4" wide blade - just like the #3. This is a light, nimble plane. BU planes do not seem to require the higher mass of the BD planes owing to their low centre of effort. You get lots more feedback. The SBUS is one of my absolute favourite smoothers and back it over any BD plane.

LV SBUS and LN #3 ...

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Planes/LV%20planes/Small%20BU%20Smoother/BUand3-1.jpg

Regards from Perth

Derek