Poor Observations of David Charlesworth's Planing DVD

[Tony Wilkins]

I got the David Charlesworth Planing video on Monday and watched it a couple of times already. This is the one that is the second of a four part series of DVD's (the first is the plane sharpening DVD I haven't gotten yet). I'm sorting through the information in my head.

Here's what I've gotten out of it so far:

1. He prefers 'longer' planes such as 5's and 5 1/2's.

2. Instead of planing 'flat' - which he says does not exist in the real world - he uses stop cuts to plane in a slight hollow. He does this in every dimension of the 'datum surfaces' - along the edge, across the board, and the length of the face. He sets up his 'long' planes as "super smoothers".

3. He takes very small shavings, for example 1 thou for normal planing, 2 thou for beginners, and up to 4 thou to take down a lot of material. This varies from Schwarz that talks about taking 1/16 to 1/8 inch shavings with the fore plane. I'm guessing that this is because Schwarz is talking about rough milling whereas Charlesworth is talking about finishing off machine milled lumber.

I'm sure there's some I missed. I'm not guaranteeing I got it all right either lol.

So has anyone else watched the video? What do you think of what he demonstrates in the video.

[Brian Kerley]

I don't think Schwarz takes a full 1/8 on his jack plane. That's a heck of a cut. I think he's more in the 1/64 to 1/32 at the thickest.

[David Weaver]

I think Schwarz overestimates his ability to take a deep cut, too. If you tried to take a 1/8 thick shaving, the board and plane would stay still and you would move.

[Jim Koepke]

3. He takes very small shavings, for example 1 thou for normal planing, 2 thou for beginners, and up to 4 thou to take down a lot of material. This varies from Schwarz that talks about taking 1/16 to 1/8 inch shavings with the fore plane. I'm guessing that this is because Schwarz is talking about rough milling whereas Charlesworth is talking about finishing off machine milled lumber.

Even when my weight was higher and my strength more youthful it is doubtful any of my shavings came close to 1/8 of an inch. One would have to file a pretty wide mouth for that to not clog.

Maybe with a scrub plane taking a very narrow shaving.

Recently it took me a good amount of effort to take a full 3/4" wide shaving that was about 0.020". When you take a shaving that thick, most of the time, lateral marks in the shaving from the tear out effect will be visible. They are also likely to be seen on the planed surface. A zipper like sound can also usually be heard when taking such thick shavings.

It might be that Chris Schwarz was talking about removing that much stock with a plane only not in one pass. Taking down 1/8" with a dozen passes is no big deal.

jtk

[David Weaver]

Charlesworth's DVD is an excellent demonstration of precise work, and the principles used to do things precisely are good to know - especially the use of a stop shaving followed by through shavings.

You can work with heavier cuts and at a higher rate of speed if you like to, though. But one thing is for sure, if you can't do precise work slowly, you won't do it quickly.

[Jim Koepke]

But one thing is for sure, if you can't do precise work slowly, you won't do it quickly.

It is like learning to type, get the accuracy down first. The speed will come later.

jtk

[Judson Green]

OK dumb question. Whats a "stop cut"?

Is this planing into the center and stopping there? And then what? Retreat? Sort of swype off to the side?

This doesn't leave marks?

[Tony Wilkins]

It is lifting the plane off the board while it's moving and it does not leave a mark. It's sort of like you plane is an airplane taking off from the surface of the board.

[Judson Green]

Thanks Tony. Guess I've sort of done this when joining two edges, but it has always left a bump. So I've finished by taking one full length swype. Still having the effect of "springing" the joint. Never thought of doing this on something wider than the plane itself.

Thanks again.

[Chris Griggs]

I don't think Schwarz takes a full 1/8 on his jack plane. That's a heck of a cut. I think he's more in the 1/64 to 1/32 at the thickest.

I'm glad I'm not the only person who thinks this. I always thought his statements that he "regularly take 1/16-1/8 thick shavings with is jack sound extreme. Its possible probably, but not easy or practical. I'd say 1/16 at the very center of a cut with heavily cambered blade about maxes out a plane....and that's a heck of a heavy cut, not at all fun, and may still be an overestimate.

[Steve Voigt]

OK dumb question. Whats a "stop cut"?

Is this planing into the center and stopping there? And then what? Retreat? Sort of swype off to the side?

This doesn't leave marks?

I haven't seen the video, but it's standard practice, in any dimension, to set the plane down so that the cutting edge is a couple-three inches past the edge of the board that's closest to you, then stop your cut a couple-three inches from the edge that's furthest from you. When jointing, this often referred to a "springing" the joint, because it leaves a slightly concave edge.
Yes, it can leave visible plane tracks when you do this, but you can remove these with one or two light, full-length passes. The point of the technique is that if you take only full-length passes on a board, eventually you will have a convex surface. So, you correct by planing in the middle of the board. I like to do this until there's a concavity that is barely visible under a straight edge, then take a couple full length passes to remove the concavity.
I really disagree with the comment that "flat does not exist in the real world" and so you should aim for a slight hollow all the time--that makes no sense to me. Yes, it's true that any "flat" surface I create will not actually be flat; if you put it on a granite surface plate and run a dial indicator over it, you will get fluctuations. But that's not the point. The point is that it's very possible to get a flat surface within the limits of my measuring instruments. If I can plane a surface so that no light is visible under a straight edge, then it's "flat in the real world"--not flat in a mathematical, theoretical sense, but in a usable, practical sense. Why would I want to distort that by deliberately creating a hollow?
Sorry for the rant. I don't know why that quote set me off, but it did.

[Tony Wilkins]

I'm glad I'm not the only person who thinks this. I always thought his statements that he "regularly take 1/16-1/8 thick shavings with is jack sound extreme. Its possible probably, but not easy or practical. I'd say 1/16 at the very center of a cut with heavily cambered blade about maxes out a plane....and that's a heck of a heavy cut, not at all fun, and may still be an overestimate.

So I remembered right, he does say that he takes a 1/16th and sometimes even an 1/8th. I was beginning to think I was wrong when I said that and was going to go back to my books and videos of his.

I probably would have kept my OS Jack if I'd know that. I was thinking that I just couldn't get the right/thick enough shaving with it. I kept trying to find an old groat to compare against it.

[Chris Griggs]

Worth noting here and to his credit. In this article he says he "poops out at about 1/32".

http://www.popularwoodworking.com/woodworking-blogs/chris-schwarz-blog/sharpen-a-fore-plane

That sounds much more accurate.

I don't remember where the 1/16-1/8 thing was said, but I do recall that as well. Perhaps we are having some type of collective false memory.

Anyway, in the above article what he says seems reasonable.

[Judson Green]

Thanks Steve for describing this practice in detail.

[Jim Koepke]

Sorry for the rant. I don't know why that quote set me off, but it did.

No need to apologize to me, my feelings are with you on this. There is no reason that comes to me why one should work diligently to get a surface as flat and smooth as possible to only carve out a depression in the middle.

That is why there are so many different books, schools and methods out there to follow.

If you do not like one, pick one that does things more like you do.

jtk

[Winton Applegate]

I just went down to the shop and tried it.
Even with a LN scrub plane with a boat load of camber to the blade and a big O' throat opening this is about the best I got :

Both cross grain. Dry.

Oak 1mm (~ 3/64")

Walnut 2mm (~ 5/64) (the walnut was tons easier so I could see getting up to 2.5 mm if I was feeling my oats and had a good day).

sooo depends on the wood but still 3.175 mm is 1/8 inch so not gonna do that in most woods.

That is I assume barring wetting the wood and all that kind of cheating stuff that I do.

[Jim Koepke]

That is I assume barring wetting the wood and all that kind of cheating stuff that I do.

Like balancing a bar bell on it and hooking the plane up to a trailer hitch?

jtk

[Chris Vandiver]

I got the David Charlesworth Planing video on Monday and watched it a couple of times already. This is the one that is the second of a four part series of DVD's (the first is the plane sharpening DVD I haven't gotten yet). I'm sorting through the information in my head.

Here's what I've gotten out of it so far:

1. He prefers 'longer' planes such as 5's and 5 1/2's.

2. Instead of planing 'flat' - which he says does not exist in the real world - he uses stop cuts to plane in a slight hollow. He does this in every dimension of the 'datum surfaces' - along the edge, across the board, and the length of the face. He sets up his 'long' planes as "super smoothers".

3. He takes very small shavings, for example 1 thou for normal planing, 2 thou for beginners, and up to 4 thou to take down a lot of material. This varies from Schwarz that talks about taking 1/16 to 1/8 inch shavings with the fore plane. I'm guessing that this is because Schwarz is talking about rough milling whereas Charlesworth is talking about finishing off machine milled lumber.

I'm sure there's some I missed. I'm not guaranteeing I got it all right either lol.

So has anyone else watched the video? What do you think of what he demonstrates in the video.

Do you mean that you observed it poorly or that you think poorly of the video? Maybe it would hlep to put some of the instruction to practice and see if that makes a difference for you.

[Tony Wilkins]

I meant my poor observation of it. It was partly tongue and cheek and partly me worried that I was misunderstanding the video (I've had a down week with my MTBI). I actually got quite a lot to think about and try out of the video. I admire Charlesworth's work quite a bit and it's a great counterpoint to some other instruction I've seen and read.

[Chuck Nickerson]

Worth noting here and to his credit. In this article he says he "poops out at about 1/32".


Now, now. Don't trip up the Chris-haters with facts.
This is becoming as amusing as the "one chisel" thread.

[David Weaver]

Well, we can only rely on what other people tell us about what he's written (I'm certainly not going to look for his literature and wouldn't have known what he wrote - there are too many other things to read from professional woodworkers with a writing hobby rather than writers with a woodworking hobby). 1/8th is a startling amount, and if you'd have told me that Charlesworth or Phil Lowe said it, I wouldn't have believed it, but if you tell me a writer said they could do 1/8th, I'm less inclined to question that the statement was made.

[Steve Voigt]

Now, now. Don't trip up the Chris-haters with facts.
This is becoming as amusing as the "one chisel" thread.
+1 on that.

[Chris Griggs]

Well I'm not CS lover or hater. I enjoy and appreciate his contributions and passion for the hobby, recognize that he is a more experienced woodworker than I, but at the same time also recognize those I stand to learn the most from are people like Phil Lowe or George who have made a living at the craft.

Anyway, what's weird is I really do remember seeing the 1/16th -1/8th thing. Maybe he mispoke or mistyped or over estimated or maybe I'm just flat out remembering wrong. That's not really what important. What is important is that in the context of this thread our friend Tony got tripped up by trying to take unreasonably thick shaving based on something unreasonable a trusted source may or may not have said. And while that source may or may not have said that at one point, it is good that we were able to assist Tony in telling him that a) 1/8" shaving was not realistic and b) the source who may or may not have said that at one point, seems to now agree that 1/32" is about the max you'd want to go.

[Tony Wilkins]

Now, now. Don't trip up the Chris-haters with facts.
This is becoming as amusing as the "one chisel" thread.

Since I also started that thread I don't know how to take this. All I did was open up what I had seen in various sources and try to process it with more experienced woodworkers here before I take it out on the wood.

[Chris Griggs]

Since I also started that thread I don't know how to take this. All I did was open up what I had seen in various sources and try to process it with more experienced woodworkers here before I take it out on the wood.

Poor Tony. Your threads do seem to get degraded into something other than they started an inordinate amount of the time due to no fault of your own. What's up with that? Hang in there buddy. Don't stop posting because of the rest of our hang ups. Just be glad your Knew Concepts thread hasn't degraded yet...that saw has a history of eliciting controversy.

:)

[Tony Wilkins]

For the record:

In the Anarchist Toolchest page 79, he talks about taking up to 1/16th inch shavings with his jack plane.

And he says the same here: http://www.popularwoodworking.com/tools/understanding_bench_planes/2 (a copy of which is also in Handplane Essentials.)

I haven't found the reference for 1/8th inch so maybe I misremembered.

[Winton Applegate]

Jim,
ha, ha, you know my secret.
When I say all hand planed I conviniently forget to mention how that plane was powered.
I plan to market my trailer hitch plane harness in Lee Valley along with my bicycle mounted snow blower attachment.

;)

[david charlesworth]

Tony,

May I respectfully sugest, that you try the exercises shown in the DVD and see what you think.

The DVD is a series of exercises, designed to show what a handplane can do (if so wished).

I specify machined timber. Chris's extra thick shavings would be taken with an extremely cambered blade, to roughly true up sawn timber.

Best wishes,
David Charlesworth

[Tony Wilkins]

Thank you for replying. I certainly will try them. I've enjoyed this DVD and the Chisel Joinery DVD that I've had for a while.

I do a lot of reading and watching DVD's since I'm unable to travel to classes very easily so I have to sort out the information and make sure that I'm comprehending it and placing it in context of other things I've learned along the way.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

I don't think Schwarz takes a full 1/8 on his jack plane. That's a heck of a cut. I think he's more in the 1/64 to 1/32 at the thickest.
I remember firing up a scrub plane for the first time. I was horrified at these HUGE THICK shavings that I had not expected (and had not been suitably careful to do it where it would not matter). No idea how thick they were, just that I was a bit freaked out. I had to then hog out a bunch more just to make everything else even without the gouge. It was not very wide, of course, and I doubt it could have been done with a jack plane (not that I cannot simply kill a board with a jack plane and leave a huge gouge with that either... when I don't want one).

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

I could see a 16th in the center of a shaving taken with a cambered plane working in softwood across the grain rather than with it.

[Tony Wilkins]

I could see a 16th in the center of a shaving taken with a cambered plane working in softwood across the grain rather than with it.

I think that's what he's counting. FWIW, I looked through the videos I have from him and early on he stated he would take 30 thou shavings and more recently 1/16th inch shavings.

[Metod Alif]

Ah, now the proverbial 1/8-inchers.:cool:
Best wishes,
Metod

[John Dykes]

I highly recommend you watch all of the David Charlesworth videos. If you are new to sharpening, hand planes, etc - memorize the sharpening video. It changed how I woodwork.... I thought LN planes were crap - until I learned how to sharpen...

Some people stumble with the manner in which David teaches his methods, but there is a reason. You can watch Frank Klaus sharpen - "Hold here, freehand the blade like this, rub it back an forth on the stone - and when it's sharp, it's sharp!" Well, as much as I respect him - I can't repeat that - not without him standing over me; I need somebody to teach me in a manner I can reproduce from a DVD. And with David's exacting detail, I can replicate his results.... With David's detail - and his wholly verbose explanation of each process - it's something the beginner can really reproduce. I literally set my computer up in my kitchen next to my sink - and learned how to sharpen. Following David's method - exactly as described - produced a perfect edge in my ham fisted hands.... It changed how I do woodworking.

As far as the perfectly flat... yes I know exactly the part you're thinking of. The comment was only anecdotal... yes, flat is flat - he'll use the term repeatedly. However, what is crucial to understand - is how you produce a "flat" surface for both the datum face and edge. If you have a belly or bump, in any dimension - your reference measurements will be thrown off - and the errors will add up. Pay note of when he has the square on the board and it's rocking back and forth giving two different measurements. So if "flat," in theoretical terms does not exist in nature - the surface is either convex or concave. A slight hollow is infinitely better than a slight bump....

So yes - I urge you to watch the video again - and again. Try them out. Learn what's happening - and make any adjustments from there.

You can search my historical posts - the Charlesworth series is, by far, the most useful DVDs I've found...

- jbd
(Currently stationed in Germany - who as a Combat Engineer, knows what MTBI is.... )

Edit: http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?72759-Easy-lessons-Hard-lessons Some historical perspective.....

[david charlesworth]

Thank you John,

I know that some people find my presentation slow, but I am determined to try and explain the content in a logical and detailed manner, so that it may be understood and reproduced. The DVDs are not intended as performances.

This works for many and I am thrilled to have got numerous letters from satisfied watchers and readers.

Best wishes,
David Charlesworth

[Adam Petersen]

Perhaps it is that Chris S. is able to get those shavings because of his low bench............









AAAnnnnnd go.

[Chris Griggs]

Perhaps it is that Chris S. is able to get those shavings because of his low bench............









AAAnnnnnd go.


OOhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. You're bad....and it's hilarious.

[Tony Wilkins]

And aiming the thread back on topic (maybe, hopefully, d'oh). I did order the rest of the four videos.

Mr. Charlesworth, I appreciate what you say about the information provided. I've found it very helpful. I'm making a Moxon Vise now and in working the mortises for the nuts set into the chop I really concentrated on using the information provided in the Precision chisel DVD. It worked a treat and am I thrilled with the result.

[Brian Deakin]

Thank you John,

I know that some people find my presentation slow, but I am determined to try and explain the content in a logical and detailed manner, so that it may be understood and reproduced. The DVDs are not intended as performances.

This works for many and I am thrilled to have got numerous letters from satisfied watchers and readers.

Best wishes,
David Charlesworth


I attended a 5 day tool tuning course at Davids workshop in Devon

I found David to be a superb teacher .I too am a fisted woodworker but as stated John

Following David's method - exactly as described - produced a perfect edge in my ham fisted hands.

Further David showed immense patience with me and spent considerable time in one to one tuition .The learning curve I completed during course has produced the most significant improvement in my woodworking skills in my 40 years of woodworking to date

Simply put if you either attend his course, read his books , watch his videos then apply and practice his techniques then that s a good as it gets

...and you do not have the excuse that you have not been shown how to complete the task correctly and too exacting standard


( I do not have any affiliation with David but I do have a scientific background as a pharmacist I have inquiring , objective approach to information and I am devil for the detail )

Other David Please Please consider creating a video channel like Rob Crossman so your immense knowledge and skill enriches the practice of future generations of woodworkers and ham fisted woodworkiers like me can advance our knowledge ,skill and enjoyment of woodworking