Smoothing plane blades

[Mike Holbrook]

I am aware that some steels may take a "better" edge in certain applications than others. That is "tougher" steel may bend before breaking whereas a very hard steel although it is very hard may be more brittle. At least in the knife world tougher steels are often used for blades designed to take abuse and harder steels may be used for knives designed to do more exacting work requiring "razor" sharp edges.

It occurs to me that a dedicated smoothing plane should not be subjected to the kind of abuse a jack plane might be. I am specifically interested in the plane blade options Lee Valley offers for their bevel up: block, jack and smooth planes. There are now three steel options: O1, A2 and PM-V11. All the blades I currently own are A2. I am wondering if PM-V11 or O1 might be a better option for removing very fine shavings? I have read that some people believe O1 is capable of taking a sharper edge than A2. I am aware that PM-V11 has some advantages in it's ability to maintain an edge longer. What I don't know is how these three specific LV steels stack up in terms of ability to take a keen edge and make fine shavings. It may even be that there is not a significant difference in which case I just have to decide if the PM-V11 is worth the premium price.

[David Weaver]

If you use a sufficiently hard and find abrasive, the edge from all three will be similar.

If you use 32 degrees or so of final bevel angle, none of them will chip. If you use 25 on any of them, they will all develop small chipping.

In my opinion, the virtue of O1 is that you can sharpen it on something that has particles that aren't that hard (like an oilstone), especially if it isn't hardened to 62 hardness. You can sharpen A2 and very hard carbon steels on oilstones, but you have to be more particular about minimizing how much work the natural oilstones do on them.

Any of them will be fine to make fine shavings, each as good as any other as long as they're set up right. Everyone has their bugaboos about what irritates them, for me it's nicks in a smoothing blade, so my final smoothers are set up with one method or another such that the final work done with the finest stone is always a little over 30 degrees.

You may not want to subject a smoother blade to harsh work, but what usually makes a blade fail is the small nicks, so even smoothing a knot or something is just as punitive as a heavy cut with a jack plane when it comes to what actually makes the edge fail.

Get any of the three. If you have modern stones, you'll probably prefer the powder metal iron because it will wear slower in regular work. If you don't have modern stones or you value easy sharpening with natural stones, you might prefer the O1. It really won't make a lot of difference in the long run.

Personally, I didn't like the O1 in the bevel up planes, but I wasn't using oilstones when I had mine. I thought they were noticeably softer than the A2 irons and wore a lot faster, and the old adages of "O1 is tougher and won't chip at lower angles" didn't really hold up because 1) there probably isn't that much difference between two irons from the same maker with similar quality, and 2) the O1 iron was softer, anyway, which negated any difference.

I don't have any more bevel up planes at this point, but if I did, I would probably opt for "wondersteel" just because it's there and I hated staring at the long wear bevel on the flat face of a bevel up plane, even though it's really a cosmetic nuisance more than it is a practical one.

[Chris Griggs]

One of the nicest things about PMV11 is that in addition to being durable it takes a very fine edge very easily. Its not crazy hard, last forever super steel. It is a fine grained, quite durable and wear-resistant steel. Noticeably better than 01 or A2 (though I'm perfectly happy using either of those as well) I think it is an ideal smoother steel. If your going to invest money in a new blade PMV11 is definitely the way to go, you loose nothing that you would get for 01 or A2 and you gain a good bit.

For a smoother specifically, I would also be considering one of Stu's blue steel blades. They're not as thick, but for something taking a thin smoother shaving that thickness is of little importance and you'll have something that takes an exceptionally fine edge very very easily and holds it exceptionally well (note: I haven't used these but that's what Dave told me and I would expect nothing less from a company with a reputation like Tsunesaburo)

[Zach Dillinger]

One of these days I really should give PMV11 a try.

[Chris Griggs]

One of these days I really should give PMV11 a try.

Being an oil stone user I wonder if you'd like it as much as I do. I haven't tried it on my oilstones. I'm sure you can sharpen it on oils stones, but I'm not sure how much fun it is. Then again, you sharpen your LN A2 blades on oils stones right? Shouldn't be any harder to hone than those....I'll have to give it a go on my arks.

[Hilton Ralphs]

One of these days I really should give PMV11 a try.

There's that cute little spokeshave with your name on it.

[Mike Holbrook]

David thanks for the detailed, practical thoughts on this subject. Your thoughts match what I was thinking from the limited information I had. Again the answer relates to ones sharpening tools and habits. I have a selection of Sigma Power & Select II stones from Tools from Japan. I bought them not just for wood tools but for powdered metal knife blades too, so I think I they will handle the PM-V11 powdered metal.

I had bad experiences with metal planes manufactured in the "dark ages" a couple decades back, Record and Paragon to be exact. I found the manufacturing of these planes to be lacking which seemed to me to make the adjusting systems unreliably loosey goosey. I started down the Lee Valley bevel up road quite a while back and they seemed to click with me. Lately I have been interested in wood planes and their heavier blades too. The planes I built are relatively light which is nice for prolonged use and I enjoy how easily they move. I have recently found my older metal bevel up planes weight to be helpful when combating some tough woods and grains, so I am thinking about buying the bevel up smoother and some PM-V11 blades that would also work on my BU jack. I imagine my plane collection is very different than David's which I think leans towards vintage Millers Falls and Stanley planes. I am avoiding the vintage Stanley & Millers Falls planes as I know how that particular "cheaper restorable" tools habit can become a whole new rabbit hole.

Wow new posts while I was answering David's! Good to hear Chris likes the PM-V11 blades, those comments were what I was hoping to hear. Griggs! why did you have to bring up the Tsunesaburo planes. I have been checking them out on TFJ while I was working on a chisel purchase. Don't get me started on Japanese blue steel plane blades. It took me Fortyelleven posts and a week of racking my brain just to build a semblance of knowledge on white chisel steels.

[Zach Dillinger]

I do sharpen my A2s on oil stones, but it does take a while. Thankfully I don't have that many. Not the most fun. I have thought about breaking down and trying something else for those, given how much I like my #9. It's the only plane with A2 that has made me consider trying another sharpening system.

[Chris Griggs]

Wow new posts while I was answering David's! Good to hear Chris likes the PM-V11 blades, those comments were what I was hoping to hear. Griggs! why did you have to bring up the Tsunesaburo planes. I have been checking them out on TFJ while I was working on a chisel purchase. Don't get me started on Japanese blue steel plane blades. It took me Fortyelleven posts and a week of racking my brain just to build a semblance of knowledge on white chisel steels.

Sorry to cause the trouble :), but it sounds like this is for an LV BU smoother so the decision should be easy. Get PMV11. It's nothing radically crazy, but it is really really nice steel, very easy to get very sharp and long lasting, plain and simple. My first use of I could tell I liked it better than either 01 or A2...the improvement is readily apparent. Honestly, if you're buying an LV plane or LV blade and have waterstones, there is no reason to get anything else. There just isn't, you loose a few extra bucks in the purchase and nothing else. I'm not going run out an replace all my 01 and A2 blade with it, but any future purchases from LV where I have the PMV11 option that is what I'll get, no question.

[Mike Holbrook]

Those were my thoughts as well Chris. The equation was very simple until you had to bring up the Japanese Blue steel plane blades. That whole subject has been wearing a little hole in my brain for about a week now. Japanese plane blades seem to have blue steel blades whereas the Japanese chisels seem to prefer white steel. I am not sure what the differences are but one day I will have to fill that little hollow spot in my head too, unless you can pound it out with that special mallet you keep around.

[Chris Griggs]

Those were my thoughts as well Chris. The equation was very simple until you had to bring up the Japanese Blue steel plane blades. That whole subject has been wearing a little hole in my brain for about a week now. Japanese plane blades seem to have blue steel blades whereas the Japanese chisels seem to prefer white steel. I am not sure what the differences are but one day I will have to fill that little hollow spot in my head too, unless you can pound it out with that special mallet you keep around.

Just forget I said anything. That was in the context of upgrading a blade in a vintage smoother. If you have full set of BU planes (I somehow overlooked that in you original post) and they are working for you, you need nothing else. So stop thinking about it and go enjoy the tools you already have or I'm going to take the vodoo doll I made of you and put it on my dry grinder.:eek:

[Chris Griggs]

I do sharpen my A2s on oil stones, but it does take a while. Thankfully I don't have that many. Not the most fun. I have thought about breaking down and trying something else for those, given how much I like my #9. It's the only plane with A2 that has made me consider trying another sharpening system.

In that case, may not be your cup of tea. Probably will be about the same as honing A2.

[Steve Voigt]

I do sharpen my A2s on oil stones, but it does take a while. Thankfully I don't have that many. Not the most fun. I have thought about breaking down and trying something else for those, given how much I like my #9. It's the only plane with A2 that has made me consider trying another sharpening system.

Zach, something you might consider, before spending $$$ on another sharpening system, is to spend $6 or so on a tube of fine diamond paste. Put a dollop on your finest arkansas and try sharpening the A2.
I came to this method by accident--I tried an all diamond paste system, but didn't care for it at all. The I switched to oilstones, which I love, but my fine stone cuts slowly (of course) and I don't care for having to abrade it constantly. I had the leftover diamond paste anyway, so I gave it a try. Man, does it work. Now, full disclosure, I don't have any A2 blades. But diamond will cut anything, and if you start with an India stone,that should cut the A2 as well. And if it doesn't work, it's a cheap experiment.

[Zach Dillinger]

That's worth a try Steve. Thanks. I only have a few planes where this would be a concern, so a $6 solution sounds like a good one. I still prefer my vintage steel to my new steel, but then again I'm old fashioned.

[Chris Griggs]

That's worth a try Steve. Thanks. I only have a few planes where this would be a concern, so a $6 solution sounds like a good one. I still prefer my vintage steel to my new steel, but then again I'm old fashioned.

Good vintage HC steel is a beautiful thing. And arks do beautiful things to the edge. One of the best pieces of steel I have is the 1/2" parer you sent me. Obviously, I'm a fan of waterstones and modern steels, but the preference for good vintage steel and arks is one I can definitely understand. It's a combination that just produces such nice results so easily...no fuss, no muss...it just works.

[David Weaver]

The blue steel tsune blades are good, but they are a bevel down proposition only, and I would imagine most folks aren't ready to reconcile with the fact that a thin blade used with skill is every bit as effective as an initially easier to master thicker iron - and beats a thick blade hands down when you figure grinding and honing time. they are easy to sharpen on waterstones, too, a little bit less so to lap the face on an oilstone probably more due to their hardness than their composition.

[David Weaver]

David thanks for the detailed, practical thoughts on this subject. Your thoughts match what I was thinking from the limited information I had. Again the answer relates to ones sharpening tools and habits. I have a selection of Sigma Power & Select II stones from Tools from Japan. I bought them not just for wood tools but for powdered metal knife blades too, so I think I they will handle the PM-V11 powdered metal.

I had bad experiences with metal planes manufactured in the "dark ages" a couple decades back, Record and Paragon to be exact. I found the manufacturing of these planes to be lacking which seemed to me to make the adjusting systems unreliably loosey goosey. I started down the Lee Valley bevel up road quite a while back and they seemed to click with me. Lately I have been interested in wood planes and their heavier blades too. The planes I built are relatively light which is nice for prolonged use and I enjoy how easily they move. I have recently found my older metal bevel up planes weight to be helpful when combating some tough woods and grains, so I am thinking about buying the bevel up smoother and some PM-V11 blades that would also work on my BU jack. I imagine my plane collection is very different than David's which I think leans towards vintage Millers Falls and Stanley planes. I am avoiding the vintage Stanley & Millers Falls planes as I know how that particular "cheaper restorable" tools habit can become a whole new rabbit hole.

Wow new posts while I was answering David's! Good to hear Chris likes the PM-V11 blades, those comments were what I was hoping to hear. Griggs! why did you have to bring up the Tsunesaburo planes. I have been checking them out on TFJ while I was working on a chisel purchase. Don't get me started on Japanese blue steel plane blades. It took me Fortyelleven posts and a week of racking my brain just to build a semblance of knowledge on white chisel steels.

Trust me, I've been through about all of it. Really, everything except krenov planes because I've never had any taste at all for what they look like. But:
* japanese planes
* old wooden planes
* new wooden planes
* japanese planes
* infill planes
* vintage cast bench planes
* new premium cast bench planes

I'm kind of settling in on the old planes (western wood and stanley types) because I like to use them the most. I didn't like them the most at first, but as time has worn on, they have won out because I don't use many power tools and they've just risen to the top.

I haven't been using anything but stock irons and stock planes for the last couple of months, it seems to be the fastest way for me to get things done. But the LN and LV planes are certainly easier to take out of the box, put the iron in a guide and hone it and get to business.

I think with what you've got for stones, you'll like the PM VII a lot, though as I mentioned above, if you never read ad copy or the internet again and you got any one of the three, it would be pretty easy to focus on other things that really do make a significant difference.

[David Weaver]

That's worth a try Steve. Thanks. I only have a few planes where this would be a concern, so a $6 solution sounds like a good one. I still prefer my vintage steel to my new steel, but then again I'm old fashioned.

If you have anything around the shop at this point, like autosol, or any other paste that's heavily concentrated with aluminum oxide, you can pretty much use it, too. I believe autosol is about 3 micron aluminum oxide and when it all shakes out, a dab of it on MDF or wood makes an edge similar to the common 8000 grit waterstones.

[Mike Holbrook]

Interesting how so much seems to revolve around sharpening systems, makes sense but, it is one of those things that seems to have to be relearned in a different context all the time.

I actually started out, don't think I will reveal time frames, with Arkansas stones and still have a few. Then I tried Japanese King stones and liked using them but found them painfully slow on the newer steels I had. I am still fighting the slow issue in one way or another. I can see the attraction to HC steels that are easier to sharpen. I have had some sort of allergic skin reaction that sidelined me for quite a while. I have been working on restoring an old Japanese chisel on a DMT Lapping plate which prefers oil or mineral spirits as a lubricant. I think my skin is less sensitive to water as a lubricant, unless I can find a stone that works with olive oil...

While we are on the subject of sharpening systems, I have been thinking about the first water based grinding system I became aware of, the Makita 9820-2 being the latest version. Highland Hardware>Woodworking was offering this system long before many of the present machine operated systems became popular. This system uses a large round stone rotating in a horizontal vs vertical position in a water bath. Tormeck and an array of dry systems seem to overshadow this system these days. I still wonder if this might be a better grinding system for my sensitive hands. The Dual-use Hand Tool Sharpening Jig Highland Woodworking offers is reported to work well on the rotating stone in the bath and then transfer directly to Japanese waterstones without missing a beat, sounds quick & easy to me.

[Jim Koepke]

I have had some sort of allergic skin reaction that sidelined me for quite a while.

Costco and likely others carry "disposable" nitril gloves that are great for this kind of work.

I use them often when my hands might get exposed to things I do not want to have to worry about.

jtk

[Chris Griggs]

if you never read ad copy or the internet again... ...it would be pretty easy to focus on other things that really do make a significant difference.

I getting this tatooed on my face in reverse so that everytime I look in a mirror I'll be reminded of this fact. I'd probably be a happier person and a better woodworker.

[David Weaver]

Interesting how so much seems to revolve around sharpening systems, makes sense but, it is one of those things that seems to have to be relearned in a different context all the time.

I actually started out, don't think I will reveal time frames, with Arkansas stones and still have a few. Then I tried Japanese King stones and liked using them but found them painfully slow on the newer steels I had. I am still fighting the slow issue in one way or another. I can see the attraction to HC steels that are easier to sharpen. I have had some sort of allergic skin reaction that sidelined me for quite a while. I have been working on restoring an old Japanese chisel on a DMT Lapping plate which prefers oil or mineral spirits as a lubricant. I think my skin is less sensitive to water as a lubricant, unless I can find a stone that works with olive oil...

While we are on the subject of sharpening systems, I have been thinking about the first water based grinding system I became aware of, the Makita 9820-2 being the latest version. Highland Hardware>Woodworking was offering this system long before many of the present machine operated systems became popular. This system uses a large round stone rotating in a horizontal vs vertical position in a water bath. Tormeck and an array of dry systems seem to overshadow this system these days. I still wonder if this might be a better grinding system for my sensitive hands. The Dual-use Hand Tool Sharpening Jig Highland Woodworking offers is reported to work well on the rotating stone in the bath and then transfer directly to Japanese waterstones without missing a beat, sounds quick & easy to me.

If I had sensitive hands, I'd use a dry grinder. The stuff that comes off of it is pretty much non-reactive with anything, you don't have to get your hands wet, and it's quick and not rough on your hands or fingers.

The makita grinder and the knock offs were in favor a couple of years ago, but they have friable stones that need to stay flat and they sling water. I got some of steve knights blades, which were lapped on those (at least mine were) and with the amount they were still out of flat, I never felt like that was a system I'd want to have.

Unless your tools are odd shaped, if you like guides, a dry grinder and a plain old eclipse guide are probably the fastest.

[Daniel Rode]

Costco and likely others carry "disposable" nitril gloves that are great for this kind of work.

I use them often when my hands might get exposed to things I do not want to have to worry about.

jtk
+1

I picked up a box of 100 medium duty Nitril gloves on sale for about $5. I use them for all sorts of things to keep my hands clean. I even use them in the kitchen when slicing hot peppers.

[Zach Dillinger]

If you have anything around the shop at this point, like autosol, or any other paste that's heavily concentrated with aluminum oxide, you can pretty much use it, too. I believe autosol is about 3 micron aluminum oxide and when it all shakes out, a dab of it on MDF or wood makes an edge similar to the common 8000 grit waterstones.

I use Noxon polish on my strops, but not on my sharpening stones. Never thought to try that, as I didn't want to gum up my stones.

[David Weaver]

Yeah, I definitely wouldn't want to put it on stones. Sometime about 5 or 6 years ago, I was curious about what would happen with various polishing agents so I tried them all on MDF. If the density of the abrasive is good enough in noxon polish it will work well. Some things, like car glaze and wheel glazes don't work that well. Go figure you wouldn't want aluminum oxide in those things.

Autosol works extremely well, but it leaves a black invisible film on tools that shows up on wood. Any of the wax compound sticks that have small al-ox in them work well, including the cheap ones like the green sticks that are 3 bucks at sears, with a drop of oil on MDF, and if the MDF gets out of flat, you can just scrape off the metal swarf and sand the MDF block.

I don't know why I get such a thrill out of that stuff, it's such a dumb thing to tinker with.