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Michael Dunn
10-21-2013, 6:11 PM
Know this GF pre-stain wood conditioner is to help blotchy woods take stain more evenly.

Does anybody ever put it on poplar before a stain?

I'm using GF Java gel stain. I'm doing a test on scrap now. I figured I'd ask to see if anyone else has benefited from this.

Prashun Patel
10-21-2013, 6:17 PM
I used a different preconditioner on poplar (minwax) before. I don't think it helped that much.

If you're doing a gel stain - and a dark one at that, I'd just shoot a light coat of shellac first, then paint on the gel stain. You'll get enough penetration and surface application that it'll get plenty dark.

The only thing I'd consider doing additionally is shooting a coat of brown dye before the shellac. I find the dye/seal/stain-as-glaze sequence gives a different level of depth that just using one or the other does not give. I just find it to look more professional. YMMV.

Michael Dunn
10-21-2013, 6:45 PM
I do have some GF light and medium brown dyes. I'm on my way to get some clear coat for another project and can get the dark brown. These dyes are sprayable?

I have some Zinsler shellac. Will that suffice? Amber or Clear?

Any special things for me to consider? Dry times? Water/oil?

Thanx!!!

Todd Burch
10-21-2013, 8:41 PM
IIRC, gel stains were invented to avoid the preconditioning stage.

But, for that matter, I would not precondition poplar anyways.

But but, I would use a dye stain anyways.

Michael Dunn
10-21-2013, 8:56 PM
Well, the preconditioned test piece didn't look as good as the non preconditioned piece. I'll try the dye tomorrow.

How long should I wait after the water based dye before putting on the gel stain?

John TenEyck
10-21-2013, 9:00 PM
Another option is to use GF's neutral stain base first, then apply the gel stain. If you use shellac instead, use a dewaxed one like Sealcoat to assure the gel stain adheres to it.

John

Todd Burch
10-21-2013, 9:06 PM
What's your complete finishing schedule plan?

Michael Dunn
10-21-2013, 11:13 PM
What's your complete finishing schedule plan?

If you're asking me, it was

1. Two coats of GF Java gel stain. Wait 72 hours.

2. Several coats of GF WB polyacrylic. Satin or Semi, client undecided ATM.

So far the test piece of just the Java gel stain looked wonderful after just one coat.

I had wondered recently if conditioner would improve my results with poplar.

Todd Burch
10-21-2013, 11:24 PM
Here's what I did when I went professional.

I used finishing products and finish schedules that were fast and simple. No overnight "soaking in" of stains or waiting for the second coat. That type of finish product and schedule shut the shop down for just about all other activities.

I took long enough just to make the stupid pieces, so I didn't need to draw out the time it took to finish a piece too.

So, there you go. That's my advice. Use whatever looks good to the client and is fast and doesn't shut your shop down. If conditioner is an extra step that slows you down - and not using it still gives you a satisfactory result - skip it.

Todd

Prashun Patel
10-22-2013, 6:05 AM
Gel stains tend to blotch less than the more penetrating ones. While poplar can blotch, if you think the results without preconditioner look good, then skip it. You have done enough projects to recognize blotch and a mediocre finishing job.

All shellac or a preconditioner will do is reduce penetration. This may have positive effects on blotch but may have adverse effects on darkness from a penetrating dye or stain. But gel stains sit on the surface anyway. They are more like paint than stain in that way. If you find there are minor areas of blotch, you will anyway be abe to use the gel stAin in between your topcoats to glaze away the contrast. Think of that as air brushing, just with a rag.

Michael Dunn
10-22-2013, 8:35 AM
Here's what I did when I went professional. I used finishing products and finish schedules that were fast and simple. No overnight "soaking in" of stains or waiting for the second coat. That type of finish product and schedule shut the shop down for just about all other activities. I took long enough just to make the stupid pieces, so I didn't need to draw out the time it took to finish a piece too. So, there you go. That's my advice. Use whatever looks good to the client and is fast and doesn't shut your shop down. If conditioner is an extra step that slows you down - and not using it still gives you a satisfactory result - skip it. Todd

Absolutely. I agree! In fact I think the one coat after the conditioner looked worse. I was only trying to see if I could somehow get a better result. FWIW, I have a dedicated finishing room. I can apply stains and clear coats and then to back into the main work area and resume WW'ing on another aspect of the project or another prone all together.

My shop is still far from being completely setup (but aren't they all????) but it's quite functional this far. In spite of ZERO DC at the moment. My CVMAX ships tomorrow. My nordfab ductwork should be ready early next week. My pile of dust, chips, and debris should be non existent soon!!!

Tangent over and out...

Jerry Thompson
10-22-2013, 9:31 AM
I use poplar a lot. I either pre-condition it with a thinned coat of hide glue, let it dry for 24 hours and very lightly and it. A great commercial product is Charles Neil's Blotch Control. Go his web site and he has a video about it. It is the best such product on the market IMHO.

Todd Burch
10-22-2013, 11:53 AM
Still need a DC? To bad I'm too far away, as I have two Jet 1100 CFM bag-over-bag units for sale on CL right now.

John TenEyck
10-22-2013, 12:29 PM
Michael, this is for future reference. I'm working on a project right now where I was considering GF's Java gel stain, but the color wasn't quite right. In looking through the Sherwin Williams BAC stain color chart I saw one called Midnight that looked perfect. I bought a quart and can only say WOW, that stuff is amazing. I put it over mahogany (I know, a sin, but that's what the customer wanted.) which had some different colors as well as some sapwood. It's all the same now, with no streaks, blotches, whatever. I also put some on some rift sawn white oak samples. It came out amazingly dark with one coat and looked exactly like the color chart. It couldn't be easier to use either; brush it on, wipe it off. No streaks, no runs, noooo errors.

I really like GF's gel stains, but this SW BAC wiping stain is in a different league. Next time you need to stain something, give them a look.

John

Michael Dunn
10-22-2013, 12:35 PM
Michael, this is for future reference. I'm working on a project right now where I was considering GF's Java gel stain, but the color wasn't quite right. In looking through the Sherwin Williams BAC stain color chart I saw one called Midnight that looked perfect. I bought a quart and can only say WOW, that stuff is amazing. I put it over mahogany (I know, a sin, but that's what the customer wanted.) which had some different colors as well as some sapwood. It's all the same now, with no streaks, blotches, whatever. I also put some on some rift sawn white oak samples. It came out amazingly dark with one coat and looked exactly like the color chart. It couldn't be easier to use either; brush it on, wipe it off. No streaks, no runs, noooo errors. I really like GF's gel stains, but this SW BAC wiping stain is in a different league. Next time you need to stain something, give them a look. John

Will do! Thanx John!!!

Michael Dunn
10-22-2013, 12:35 PM
Still need a DC? To bad I'm too far away, as I have two Jet 1100 CFM bag-over-bag units for sale on CL right now.

I have a CVC CVMAX on order. It should ship tomorrow... Hopefully.

John TenEyck
10-23-2013, 2:50 PM
Michael, one thing I forgot to mention about the Sherwin Williams BAC wiping stains. They are meant to be used under spray applied sealer and topcoats, ONLY. Don't choose them if you need to apply the topcoats by hand or it will make a mess, regardless of whether it's WB or solvent based.

John

Mike Nguyen
10-24-2013, 2:56 AM
On my last project with poplar, I used Home Depot new Varathane Wood Stain (Early American color) and it looked great. It dried much faster too that I was able to stain the first coat at about 5:30 PM and second coat at 9:30. The instructions say no conditioner is required and I found that it looked worse with the conditioner when I tried it on the birch cabinet grade plywood.
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Varathane-1-Qt-American-Walnut-3x-Wood-Stain-266172/203332257#specifications
Mike

Michael Dunn
10-24-2013, 7:21 PM
Michael, one thing I forgot to mention about the Sherwin Williams BAC wiping stains. They are meant to be used under spray applied sealer and topcoats, ONLY. Don't choose them if you need to apply the topcoats by hand or it will make a mess, regardless of whether it's WB or solvent based. John

Noted... Unfortunately my results on the actual workpiece are not as nice and even as my test on scrap. I'm going to test spraying the GF dark brown dye stain on the scrap piece. On another scrap piece I'm going to tint the clear coat and see how they both look.

On another note. I'm really digging the Earlex HV6900 sprayer system someone (in another thread) recommended. Easy to use. Easy to clean. Great finish quality and results. Even for a relatively new HVLP guy.

Michael Dunn
11-11-2013, 4:22 PM
So here are the two finished products... I'm quite please with the finish and the clear coat. The satin looks beautiful.

John TenEyck
11-11-2013, 5:38 PM
Well, I think you knocked it out of the park Michael, both the design and the finish. So, what did you end up using for your finishing schedule? Again, well done.

John

Michael Dunn
11-11-2013, 6:13 PM
Well, I think you knocked it out of the park Michael, both the design and the finish. So, what did you end up using for your finishing schedule? Again, well done.

John

Same as what I started off with. Sanded to 220, wiping between with MS, two coats of GF Java Gel Stain, sanding lightly between with 400 grit, wait 72 hours, several coats of GF Satin Polycrylic sanding lightly between each coat with 400 grit and wiping with MS.

I used my new Earlex HV6900 with what I would certainly say is great results! My client was happy as well. The husband saw it first. The wife is on her way home soon. I trust she'll be delighted as well.

Thanx for the kind words John!

Prashun Patel
11-11-2013, 10:38 PM
Looks fantastic.

John TenEyck
11-11-2013, 11:17 PM
You're welcome Michael. Say, you might want to move up to GF's Enduro Clear Poly next time. Very clear, good UV stabilizer package, and far better chemical durability than the Polycrylic. I ordered it from Jeff Jewitt at Homestead Finishing. Costs more, but well worth it.

John