How would you make these recessed hinge slots look nice?

[Dylan Borcoli]

Some of the face frames were wider than 3/4" (cabinet maker goofed up making them 1 1/2" wide) so some of the clip-top hinges had to be recess mounted. Cabinet maker thought there would be some wood behind them, allowing for a nice looking recess using a router, but workers had to cut all the way through. These are glass display cabinets and the hinges can be seen from the sides. Cabinet maker promises do to whatever it takes to make it look good. How would you make this look nice? My current idea is to put a thin piece of wood behind it and seal it up around the edges with caulking (but the trick is -- how would such a wood piece attach, when it has to be smaller than the opening to get it in there). Then the notch will be sanded and finished with the same lacquer and look like a recess mounted hinge. But maybe someone knows of a better way.

p.s. could not use compact hinges due to the excessive gap on the side profile.


273448

[Richard Coers]

I am going to need better and more pictures to even understand what those hinges are mounted to. Are they mounted to the wall? There is no such thing as a 3/4" wide faceframe. It's called edgebanding if it is the same width as the side. I'm pretty sure you have a whole bunch of people that don't know what they are doing, and making that look good is really going to be tough. I think you are using the term cabinetmaker pretty loosely. He can make cabinets, but he doesn't know what he is doing. What a mess!

[Matt Meiser]

Tell cabinetmaker to rebuild the cabinets. That looks awful and will no amount of caulk is going to make it invisible. Anything I can think of won't look great, and will interfere with the adjustability of the hinges and ability to remove the doors.

[Dylan Borcoli]

Richard, it's hard to see in the photo, the clip-top hinge is mounted to the side of the face frame (now recessed) in the normal mounting location. I called it a 3/4 face frame in my original post, but you're right, that option would have been called edgebanding or Euro style frameless cabinets rather than face frame. The root cause of the problem was that the cabinet maker used his computer software to plan the entire cabinets, which outputs a face frame design that is obviously not compatible with full overlay with the Euro style clip-top hinges (although it would have worked with compact hinges, but those types of hinges make all the panels stick resulting in an unacceptable appearance from the side profile).

He acknowledged the screw up and his guys will put in the labor and whatever it takes to make it nice. He just doesn't have a plan yet.

[Sam Murdoch]

:eek: From the photo and your description I think some terms are not being used correctly - in other words - I still don't understand :rolleyes:.

However - there is NO WAY to save what I see. From what you describe though it occurs to me that you might be able to mount the doors with butt hinges - forget the Euros. And those holes - add new interior sides to the cabinet! Yes, I know, that means cutting down the shelves but as these are totally unacceptable as is I am proposing an inexpensive fix. You are being very, very nice to this "cabinetmaker".

[Matt Meiser]

From what you describe though it occurs to me that you might be able to mount the doors with butt hinges - forget the Euros. And those holes - add new interior sides to the cabinet! Yes, I know, that means cutting down the shelves but as these are totally unacceptable as is I am proposing an inexpensive fix. You are being very, very nice to this "cabinetmaker".

But there are now big holes left in the doors. Sure they could be plugged but they'll never look right. I probably wouldn't do it on a project for myself. No way I'd accept it on something I was paying for. Plus it sounds to me like the "extra" 3/4" of the faceframe is on the outside of the cabinet (which I've found to be a great way to go personally, but you have to plan for it with overlays) so the front edge of any new side would be visible when the door is open.

Make them rip it out and redo it...

[Dave Zellers]

Well, I build cabinets and if a mistake like that ever happened to me, my client would never see it. Never. I would build a new one and apologize for the delay.

That being said, when I started out in carpentry 40 years ago I was told, the good carpenter isn't one who never makes mistakes, it's the one who knows how to fix his mistakes.

Could you post more pictures? There must be a way to fix this disaster. So far, I lean towards Sam's idea of an applied new side.

[Joe Jensen]

I agree, the cabinet maker apparently never used euro hinges before. There are many configurations of Euro hinges. the only fix that would look acceptable would be to cover the sides with a think finished plywood and then then find hinges that will work with the cabinet as built.

[Sam Murdoch]

But there are now big holes left in the doors. Sure they could be plugged but they'll never look right. I probably wouldn't do it on a project for myself. No way I'd accept it on something I was paying for. Plus it sounds to me like the "extra" 3/4" of the faceframe is on the outside of the cabinet (which I've found to be a great way to go personally, but you have to plan for it with overlays) so the front edge of any new side would be visible when the door is open.

Make them rip it out and redo it...

There is a way to fill hinge holes in doors that if done properly will be invisible - ask me how I know that :), but your point is well taken - this is all pretty much unacceptable. As Dave writes "Well, I build cabinets and if a mistake like that ever happened to me, my client would never see it. Never. I would build a new one and apologize for the delay." I don't think the competence is in the house to fix this level of "not right".

[johnny means]

Replace the side and use the proper hardware. That looks like manure and is absolutely unacceptable for any compensated work. He didn't even cut a clean recess. Looks like it was dug out with a sharp rock.

Btw, I think you're confusing the terms Cabinetmaker and hack.

[Mark Wooden]

You have got to be freakin' kidding me......
Poor design and even worse execution. A replacement of the cabinet is necessary, don't even attempt to fix that. Unfortunately, I have to agree with Sam, if the cabinet maker and the installers did that, you need to find someone else.
If you get better pics and some good measurements, maybe someone here can make you an RTA, flat pack and ship it to you. If you're lucky, you'll get the install for free anyway.
My condolences and good luck

[glenn bradley]

OK. Well, it was nice of many of you to agree that the job is a hack without offering much support or advice (other than to shoot the "cabinetmaker" but I think Dylan has figured that out) :). I agree with Sam, some sort of thin panel applied to the side and get the appropriate hinges for the job. And as Dave said, If I boo-boo'd that badly, it wouldn't be on the burn pile; I would burn it immediately ;-) Seriously though, a mistake like that wouldn't get fixed in my shop, it would get re-done. Its not your fault that I can measure well.

Unfortunately we see posts now and again where someone has used someone who does poorly and thinks the customer should pay for his learning curve. I believe Sam may have another good point; I don't think anyone who would try to deliver something like that in the first place is the guy I would want to have fix it. I had a machine shop blow a router plate milling for me once, they botched a simple job so bad that they didn't even ask for another chance, they just paid me for a replacement blank, apologized and waved goodbye.

[Pat Barry]

It can't be done. Start over. Better yet. Cancel the order, find a real cabinet maker. May need to look beyond Jr High shop class to find someone suitable.

[Dylan Borcoli]

Looks like it was dug out with a sharp rock.

I like that quote, looks like it was dug out with a sharp rock. My biggest problem is that the cut is uneven and sloppy. Here is a picture that gives some more perspective (note, these are test doors for checking the hinges, they are being replaced with doors that will have tight gaps).

If I had unlimited time I would tell him to tear down the cabinets and rebuild, and this time create a full overlay with thinner face frames so that the clip-top hinges mount as intended. But we have to get the kitchen working ASAP.

My current idea is to see if we can slide thin pieces of wood from above the cabinet (where the crown moulding will go) to create backs for the slots. Then the sloppy cuts will be fixed (with sanding, bondo, and caulking) and then finished with lacquer.

Then would this look decent as a "recessed" hinge?

Everyone is right, this is a hack job and the cabinets should have been designed correct in the first place, but I am backed into a corner due to time pressure.

273480

[Sam Murdoch]

Is this a show room or a model kitchen? Apparently they are not cabinets that you will use. It seems you are going for a certain look but I would consider nailing a face frame in place, fitted in the field. Add 1/4" panels to cover the hinge pockets (a euphemism). Add full overlay doors with overlay hinges with the base plates mounted to the face frames. You will need to trim the doors down a bit but looks as there is plenty of rails and stiles so that they can loose a 1/4" or so.

At the least do your bondo magic but add opaque glass to the doors - and aim the lights to the counter tops.

[Dylan Borcoli]

I agree with everyone. Any additional ideas for making this "pretty" with trim pieces? For example, crown moulding was invented to cover messed up transitions, and now people think it's for décor. The outlet covers on electrical outlets cover some messed up looking gaps that electricians cut into walls. Maybe I can invent some new kind of décor piece for cabinet makers that mess up hinge slots, and who knows, maybe it will catch on and become trendy to install them even if they're not needed. Just like crown moulding is installed when the wall/ceiling transition is perfectly fine without it. Someday all of you will be installing special hinge cover trim pieces because of a trend started here. Ok I'm trying to have a little fun with it, otherwise I won't be able to sleep at night.

[Mark Wooden]

Ok , Glenn makes the good point that we're not being much help; it's just so :eek:.

Instead of cutting a pocket around each hinge base, why not remove the entire side where the hinges are? They seem to be mounted now, so cut a notch around it all-cleanly now!!- and then apply a moulding or edgetape on the cut edge of the carcass. Finish and walk away.

In the future, I'd suggest that you ask for a working, full size mock up with hinges on to be sure it fits the needs and space availible. And the bunch that did it needs some training.

[Dylan Borcoli]

Instead of cutting a pocket around each hinge base, why not remove the entire side where the hinges are? They seem to be mounted now, so cut a notch around it all-cleanly now!!- and then apply a moulding or edgetape on the cut edge of the carcass.

Mark, you have an interesting idea. If I understand correctly you mean removing the dividers between this row of upper glass display cabinets. It looks like those panels are separate 3/4 pieces and can be knocked out, and the gap covered. Let's imagine we were in the design stage - would a row of upper glass display cabinets look better with dividers, or without dividers?

The cabinet shop owner had a mockup made, and to it looked ok to me as a solution to the original issue (solving the large side profile gaps with compact hinges). He took some measurements and said that there would still be a little bit of wood for the hinge base on the affected cabinets. But his workers are better at using the measuring tape and determined different measurements and said they'd have to cut all the way through, AFTER a bunch of the normal looking mortises were already made. Some of the cuts look like his mockup, but not the ones in my original post.

I especially appreciate suggestions like Mark's idea that are not too drastic, since my wife would kill me if I burned the cabinets since we had so many construction delays already.

273487

273488

[Matt Meiser]

I'm thoroughly confused. There's doors on there but they aren't the right ones? What??? They build a complete set of test doors, but didn't test them until they showed up on site? And if new doors need to be built, why couldn't the hinges have been changed to something that actually works? Blum Compact 33 hinges are available up to 1-5/8 overlay with a 3/16" reveal. Maybe that reveal is more than was desired but it sure beats what's going on inside the cabinets.

What if you switch to a hinge that fits the situation, on the new doors? Cut a block that fits that hacked out opening and mount with pocket hole screws. Use bondo as a filler on the gaps and screw pockets and sand smooth so nothing telegraphs through. Then use peel and stick veneer to recover the sides and refinish. Not going to be easy as the veneer would need to be cut perfectly. I think I'd find someone other than the guy who cut these pockets...

[Dylan Borcoli]

Matt,

Indeed these are test doors, long story regarding that part which might distract from this topic, the real doors are coming next week.

Regarding the hinges, these mortises were made to avoid the Compact 33 hinges which look bad from the side profile since they leave such a large 3/16" or greater gap between the door and cabinet. We have a lot of side profile in this kitchen. When you see this in person, the gap from Compact 33 hinges looked as bad as the sloppy cut.. Before changing to the much better clip top hinges where we get 1/16" gap.

[Richard Coers]

Maybe this has been answered, but why a faceframe at all? If you are just going to cover it up with the door anyway, why not just edgeband the case and use the hinges you like?

[Harry Hagan]

I’m sorry to hear about your problems. Unfortunately, it’s all too common these days.

Your story reminds me why my brother periodically thanks me for convincing him to hire someone to oversee the building of his new home. We both agreed that he didn’t have the knowledge, time, and contacts in his community to even hire the right people to have a proper home built. He was able to persuade a retired local gentleman with 40+ years of residential and commercial construction experience to make sure things were done right the first time, at a reasonable price, and actually saved money and a lot of headaches.

[Dylan Borcoli]

Richard, excellent question. During initial design I asked the contractor the difference between Euro style and face frame cabinets. He gave the option of doing the Euro style without face frame, but warned that it is a "cheaper" construction technique. He recommended face frame since he said that he could achieve the same full overlay look. Now that I read more on the forums, combining face frame with full overlay is somewhat of a hybrid that presents these kinds of challenges.

[Mark Wooden]

Did they notch the 1-1/2" face frame flush to the inside of the cabinet to get the hinges on? Is there an 1-1/2" face frame on each cabinet; so when the cabinets are screwed together there's a 3" frame overall? So, in that situation, the doors need to overlay a full 1-1/2"?
Also, I don't understand -"p.s. could not use compact hinges due to the excessive gap on the side profile"- could you take a picture of the area where the gap would occur (point at it with a pencil in the pic)

Where I'm getting to here is I think the faceframes need to be cut flush with the inside of the cabinets and the right hinges,bases and doors need to be installed.

[Dylan Borcoli]

Did they notch the 1-1/2" face frame flush to the inside of the cabinet to get the hinges on?

No each face frame was notched a partial distance based on the expected hinge mounting cup location on the door. The amount of notch calculation was affected by the amount of overlay to achieve full overlay with the right gap and the door hinge cup location. Some face frames are notched more than others but none of them were designed to be flush to the inside wall. The ones in the original pic went all the way through because those divider walls started at the inside edges of the face frame.


Is there an 1-1/2" face frame on each cabinet; so when the cabinets are screwed together there's a 3" frame overall? So, in that situation, the doors need to overlay a full 1-1/2"?

Yes that is correct, doors overlay the full 1-1/2" minus a little gap, and 3" frame overall where cabinets are screwed together.


Also, I don't understand -"p.s. could not use compact hinges due to the excessive gap on the side profile"- could you take a picture of the area where the gap would occur (point at it with a pencil in the pic)"?

Here is the gap on the side profile when we were trying out the compact hinges. The way the room is arranged, 3 of the end cabinets have prominent side profiles from the living room where people gather most the time. The compact hinge gap looked really bad. Both me and my wife hated how it looked. We told the cabinet maker he made a design mistake by going with the compact hinge with full overlay, it should have been designed for the Euro style clip-top hinge to make this room look good from the prominent side profile.

273590

[Mark Wooden]

Ok, it's a little clearer now.
I'm pretty sure there isn't a euro style hinge that can do an 1-1/2" overlay; I think Salice might do 1" with a 40mm cup but I won't swear to it.
Bottom line is this- the face frame edge has to be flush with the mounting surface of the hinge and the overlay will be approx. 13/16" or less depending on the base and the amount of "crank" of the hinge used.. Looks like we're past that in this situation.

What I would do to try and save it is-
1) Cut the face frames back to the depth of the notches, sand and finish. The doors will then overlay the amount needed, and the holes in the face frame that point out the mistake will be gone
2) Like I said earlier, remove the material in between the notches in the sides of the carcasses and add a trim piece/edgeband the particle board/plywood edge. In the case of a routed recess that doesn't go through the carcass,rout the material between the recesses the same depth, fill, sand and finish/paint to match the cabinet interior. Re-bore the shelf pin holes further back, cut the backs of the shelves off as necessary

As to the gap under the door, it looks like that could be adjusted closer than that. An end panel that extends flush to the door face and covers the door edge option if it can be done in your case, not sure.

[Dylan Borcoli]

Mark, you have some excellent tips that are characteristic of a true wood craftsman. Just as it is easy for a worker to make a bad cut, it is also easy for other cabinet makers to say the only solution is to rebuild the cabinets. The mark of a true expert is to find a solution to challenging problems that does not involve starting over. After all, this is only a cosmetic problem. Structurally my cabinets will be just as strong as, and function just as well as Euro cabinets, at least. Wonders can be achieved using wood for things that are of cosmetic nature.


What I would do to try and save it is-
1) Cut the face frames back to the depth of the notches, sand and finish. The doors will then overlay the amount needed, and the holes in the face frame that point out the mistake will be gone

I like this idea, simple enough.


2) Like I said earlier, remove the material in between the notches in the sides of the carcasses and add a trim piece/edgeband the particle board/plywood edge.

Do you mean to cut out just the part vertically that joins the notches, or do you mean to knock out the entire divider between the glass display cabinets? In each case the puck lights in the ceilings will shine through into the next compartment but that might be a good thing, to diffuse the light a bit more rather than bouncing off a partition.


In the case of a routed recess that doesn't go through the carcass,rout the material between the recesses the same depth, fill, sand and finish/paint to match the cabinet interior. Re-bore the shelf pin holes further back.

I also like this idea, because I think it would reduce the visual emphasis from the hinge pockets and instead make it look like part of the side of the cabinet is recessed in a decorative way.


cut the backs of the shelves off as necessary.

I am not clear on this part, not sure why the backs of the shelves might need to be cut.


As to the gap under the door, it looks like that could be adjusted closer than that. An end panel that extends flush to the door face and covers the door edge option if it can be done in your case, not sure.

What's shown in the photo is the closest we could get the Blum Compact hinge gap under the door after much tinkering. I guess people use those hinges when their cabinets do not expose a lot of side profile to other rooms. My cabinet maker also suggested an end panel, but after examining that option in detail, we couldn't do it because it wouldn't leave enough space for moulding and other side clearance issues if we did it consistently on all the end cabinets.

If anyone is curious where this idea first came from to notch the face frame, it was from Blum tech support. To be honest I don't have a problem with the concept, but rather I have a problem with the incredibly sloppy way that the routing and cuts were done. So really appreciate ideas like Mark's ideas to improve the cosmetic appearance.

[Matt Meiser]

Mark, you have some excellent tips that are characteristic of a true wood craftsman. Just as it is easy for a worker to make a bad cut, it is also easy for other cabinet makers to say the only solution is to rebuild the cabinets. The mark of a true expert is to find a solution to challenging problems that does not involve starting over. After all, this is only a cosmetic problem.

This isn't a bad cut, this is a major screw up made worse by a hack attempt to fix it. Any way you look at it at this point its a hack job to fix it. I built a decent sized kitchen full of boxes with about 60 hours of labor. A pro should be able to beat my time. If you've paid this guy a dime, you're getting totally hosed. He's wasted more time calendar-wise "fixing" it than it would have take to fix it the right way.

If you are in the Toronto area you should write Mike Holmes. Not even joking.

[Mark Wooden]

On suggestion#2- just make it one big notch, from the top of the top hinge to the bottom of the bottom hinge. This will (again) not draw attention to the mistake.

That door gap is not as tight as it should/could be, you've got some other condition preventing it from being smaller. Probably have the cup bore in too far from the door edge.

I'm thinking cut the shelves to the back of those hinge pockets; probably not necessary.

Blum support had no idea of the depth of your problem, they just got you to the dimension needed to get your hinges to work.

As far as the problem being "cosmetic"- well, believe me if I were in anyway involved with that job, I''d have already taken a Sawzall to the "cabinets"; most of the pro cabinet makers here could make new cabinets faster than repairing what you have. I hope they hold together, a mistake as large as this usually isn't the only one. As another member pointed out, this kind of thing is becoming far too commonplace, I just had to go to bat for a friend in a similar situation. But, like I said, Glenn made the good point; as a community here, we should try to help, not just condemn.

[Dylan Borcoli]

I agree it is a hack job the way it was cut without regard for cosmetics. But that's just restating the obvious.

This reminds me, whenever I see really large crown moulding, I think it is funny and odd that people install crown moulding for looks.. when the whole concept arose to hide bad transitions.

The posts about solutions like Mark's are most helpful.

[Dylan Borcoli]

I had a detail woodworker come over to assess the problem. 28 years experience, and he does the detail work for a different highly respected local cabinet maker. He didn't make it sound as unfixable as some of these posts here. For the dividers that were notched all the way through, he said the existing partitions can be removed, and then replaced with a double layer of plywood making a new partition (getting in between the two hinges). As another option he made the exact same suggestion that Mark made, to make one big notch from top to bottom and then cover the edge and lacquer. For the routing that doesn't go all the way through, he suggested cleaning up the edges of the rough cuts and he said they won't be very noticeable once they are painted. He said the hinge itself will take away the attention from the recess.