Yet another vague question....this time about jointers

[David D Smith]

Okay, chance to buy my first jointer, having always thought I needed one in my shop. The question is, Are jointers out dated? :confused: The reason(s) I ask is, and as an example, in the past decade, used radial arm saws have become very inexpensive in the classifieds. I suspect due to the popularity of the sliding compound miter saw. Are jointers also headed the same way, due to being able to set up table saws and/or router tables to joint, or achieve a straight edge? The other reason I ask and what got me really wondering is because, while buying a used vise this past weekend, I commented to the seller that he had a nice jointer. He said, "That old thing- they're just boat anchors that no one ever uses anymore" So to fellow forum members, I ask...What's your two cents? Thanks in advance

[Clark Harbaugh]

If you use power tools to straighten and flatten your pieces, then I see them as invaluable. I still use mine on somepieces, however more and more I've been trying to work with hand planes. While I'm not completely reliant on them yet (still honing my skills), I can tell you that on shorter pieces I can hand plane an edge much faster than setting up a jointer.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

IMO, the jointer is one of the most basic tools and will be around for at least the rest my life time.

Yes, you can set up a table saw or router table to edge joint, if you have the patience and care to so. It can be a matter of personal preference or budget. You can also use hand tools to do the same thing if you have the desire to do so. There is no right or wrong, it's a matter of personal preference and/or budgetary constraints.

Frankly, the reason I don't use hand tools to do it is the time involved. I can edge and face joint one face, rip to width and then plane to thickness all the boards for a given project, long before I could edge joint one board with a hand plane. Of course, that could also say something hand tool skills?

Most woodworkers, IMO, are more project oriented rather than "enjoying the method" oriented. I can't see myself without my jointer or my thickness planer. It's quick, easy and accurate. I can get on with building the project.

[Ron Kellison]

How are you going to face-joint an 8" board on a tablesaw before you run it through the planer to get it to proper thickness? If your board has any twist in it the planer will certainly give you a finished board with the twist still in it!

Ron

[Jeff Duncan]

I have 2 in my shop b/c they're one of the most useful tools in my shop. You can pick any tool and find someone that thinks it's useless, but it comes down to whether or not you can use it. Personally I can't imagine a shop without one! I think you should go back to that guys shop ASAP, I mean if it's a boat anchor he can't ask all that much $$$ for it....right:rolleyes: Heck, your probably doing him a favor removing it:D

good luck,
JeffD

[Dave Cullen]

There really is no substitute in the power tool arena for a jointer. Getting the first face flat is one of the first steps in preparing stock. That having been said, if I had to give up one of my power tools the jointer would be the first to go. But only because I am adept at doing it by hand and I don't typically deal with long stock.

My only regret about having a jointer is not buying a bigger one.

[Matt Day]

The answer is no.

Maybe, just maybe, one day down the line the typical jointer we have today will fall by the wayside and only combo jointer/planers will be sold.

[Rod Sheridan]

Since jointing is the first step in preparing material, and the most crucial, how do you propose to eliminate it?

The basis of material is a surface that is a plane, all other surfaces are then referenced off that.

A jointer, or a hand plane produce that first reference surface, so unless you want to resort to hand plane only, you should start saving up for a nice wide jointer.

I went with a 12 inch jointer/planer combo, which may make the stand alone jointer almost become extinct.

Regards, Rod.

[David Kumm]

Most old woodworking machines have taken a drop in value the past few years. Few appreciate the big heavy old three phase machines and even fewer understand the differences when comparing to new cheaper machines. Table and band saws are cheap too. I also wonder if younger people, having grown up with stuff that wears out or is disposable realize that used machines are not like used cars if high quality when produced. I have machines from the 1930's that when cleaned up look to have no wear. Makes for some real bargains if you do your homework. Jointers are not likely to become irrelevant. Dave

[glenn bradley]

Okay, chance to buy my first jointer, having always thought I needed one in my shop. The question is, Are jointers out dated? :confused:
- No.

Are jointers also headed the same way, due to being able to set up table saws and/or router tables to joint, or achieve a straight edge?
- No

The other reason I ask and what got me really wondering is because, while buying a used vise this past weekend, I commented to the seller that he had a nice jointer. He said, "That old thing- they're just boat anchors that no one ever uses anymore"
- I imagine that guy air nails plywood or melamine together and that's great for him. I do another type of woodworking.

Ron hits the (air) nail on the head when he refers to face jointing. Face jointing is one of the first steps in preparing your solid wood stock. The jointed face become the original reference surface for future milling steps. The next step for many is edge jointing using the freshly jointed face referenced against the jonter's fence although some folks plane to parallel faces and then edge joint, rip to width and cross cut to length.

[Michael Weber]

The jointer is the most troublesome tool in the shop to get good results from IMO. infeed/out feed tables have to be co-planer. Knives must be set dead straight across, at the same exact level and even with the out feed table. When all is finally set up as close as possible you still get board edges that are not flat, being convex or concave depending on what side of the bed you got up on that morning. :mad: Or one end of the board is jointed and the opposite end never comes close leaving tapered boards. It drives me nuts. If that's not enough, user technique is critical as well. You have to apply feed pressure on the two tables at the proper time or something else dreadful will happen. Maybe a combination of convex and concave on one board, I don't know. You can probably tell I hate mine. It's enough to make me buy S4S material. Never spent so much time fiddling with something for mediocre results. YMMV
rant off:eek:

[Myk Rian]

Michael;
You must have a machine that wasn't any good in the first place. Or your setup is in error. I've had several jointers, and have never had problems like that. My present machine is a 1938 Wallace. Works like a charm.

[Phil Thien]

If you have a planer, you can use a sled to get flat a flat face. If you have a table saw, you can make a sled to rip a straight edge.

I like having a jointer because using a planer sled can be time consuming. But I still rely on the sled form time to time when I have a board wider than 6" (width of my jointer) I would like to flatten.

[Roy Harding]

What some others have said - you need to get a face flat FIRST, before you can do anything else. That's what jointers do (I rarely use mine to joint an edge because I use my table saw for that function). The jointer does it faster than any other method I know (yes - I can use my jointer plane to do a single board in probably the same time the jointer does it - now repeat that on twenty 48" long boards).

I COULD use my jointer plane instead of my jointer - but I don't because the jointer is faster. I could also use my "egg beater" hand drill instead of my 12V battery drill - but I don't because the battery drill is faster. I could also use a handraulic screwdriver instead of my battery operated driver - but I don't because the battery operated driver is faster.

Why do we fly from place to place instead of using sailing ships or riding horses or walking? Same reason.

That's the ONLY reason to use power tools at all - speed.

[Brad Cambell]

I did without a jointer for about a year as I have been acquiring tools.

You can make ok things without a jointer as long as your wood doesn't cup or warp. You can get close with a table saw. But your panel glue ups will be mediocre at best. Granted you can use a hand plane but a good plane is pretty expensive too. In addition, I would think that a hand plane would be harder to operate correctly than a machine, imho.

I just bought a used DJ 20 and I don't know how I ever lived without it. I use it to surface the face on EVERY board that I use now. Now every board I use is perfectly flat and square. There is no twist or bow to any of my pieces. If you ever make a raised panel door you know what I'm talking about.

The jointer is the most important tool in your shop. Plane the face with your jointer, then joint the edge while keeping the face you just planed to the fence. Then take the board to the planer and plane the other face. Now you have a board that has both faces parallel to each other and one side is 90 deg to the faces. Now rip it on your table saw to width. If you are gluing up panels then joint the edge after you rip it on your saw.

As to a jointer being temperamental? I can attest to that. When I bought the jointer, it was jointing convex. I read on the internet and found the fix for that. Then I adjusted one knife because it was leaving a rippled surface. But I can concur that operator error can cause some things. However, once I adjusted a couple things and slowed down my feed rate, my faces come out so smooth I wouldn't have to sand if I didn't want to.

I tend to think that people that don't use the jointer don't know how to adjust it correctly. Oh, and by the way, most everything that I buy is between 6 and 8 inches in width. If you get a jointer get an 8 inch. It will cost more but it will be used more. Maybe that is reason number 2?

[glenn bradley]

The jointer is the most troublesome tool in the shop to get good results from IMO.

I'm feeling bad for Michael. This is definitely a tool problem and not a tool "type" problem. I wouldn't go sour on a type of tool based on your bad experience. A halfway decent jointer is not troublesome. A well cared for used jointer might need a bit of setup but, once done, you nearly never have to adjust things again. I will agree that knifed machines can be problematic when it comes to setting the knives. The difficulty here can be more or less based on the retention method. I think the fussiness of it stems from the fact that few of us change knives often enough to get very good at it; thank goodness. I switched to inserts and never looked back. As to technique, again, on a properly operating machine the technique is minimal. There definitely is a technique but, operating a tablesaw effectively is much more involved. I hope you get a chance to try another machine somewhere to see what a joy one can be.

[Brad Cambell]

So true Glenn, I absolutely love my jointer. Once I got it adjusted correctly everything is effortless. The only thing I have to concentrate on is to slow down my feed rate. If I slow down, my board's surface is as smooth as glass.

[Rick Fisher]

Buying S4S lumber is never a substitute for a Jointer.


To me a Jointer is a more valuable tool than a planer and I use mine much, much more.

I have often thicknessed 2x6 and 2x8 by face and edge jointing, and then resawing the excess off on a bandsaw.. Then the sander, completely skipping the planer..

A Jointer makes wood straight and true. Jointers will fall from use when wood is no longer needed straight and true.

[Steve Baumgartner]

The return question for the critic should be "if you don't use a jointer, what do you do instead?" Off the top of my head, I can think of five possibilities:

- pay someone else to flatten your wood for you
- use a planer sled for faces and table saw sled or router table for edges
- use hand tools
- don't build anything with planar surfaces
- give up woodworking

[Keith Hankins]

Just got a chance to peek in and saw this. You have plenty of responses and I just add mine. Milling lumber starts with getting one face flat. I've done it about every way imaginable. I did it with a scrub plane, and a #7 jointing plane with winding sticks (the green method) I've used a sled and planer (so time-consuming I hated it). I did it with a router and jig after wedging the board on a table (too much time).

I had a delta 6" jointer that had a cheapo aluminum fence, that never cut right. I got so mad at it I gave it to my brother. He found that the blades had been installed backwards at the factory! He put new ones in correctly and it cuts ok. As to the boat anchors, you can't beat an old american iron jointer. I see yates american monsters go for a song on the OWWM forum. Now I rely on my 12" jointer. All boards begin their journey there.

[Jeff Duncan]

The jointer is really one of the most basic tools in terms of operation, however I have noticed a tendency for guys who may be newer woodworkers to expect machines to be plug and play. If you buy a machine like a jointer you have to get it set up correctly.....doesn't matter if it's new or used. It's a PITA to get it dead-on....but it's absolutely necessary. Of course if it's a cheap junker then you may never get it to work correctly, but if it's a half decent machine you should be OK. Once you get it set up they really are not difficult to use. Sure there's technique involved, but nothing compared with learning how to walk, or talk, or read, which we've all had to do. It's more about understanding the concept of how a jointer works and developing a feel for the process. The problem I believe is many guys are having to learn by themselves, as opposed to having someone there to walk you through it. I'd bet if I could spend 1/2 hour with Michael he would be much happier using his jointer;)

Knife setting is another area where I think guys get overwhelmed although they don't really need to. There's so much info on the net on setting knives and using dial indicators, micrometers, and electron microscopes to ensure your within .000001 of an inch:eek: I use the stick method for both my jointers as I firmly believe in K.I.S.S.. I couldn't hazard a guess as to the tolerances my knives are and frankly don't care. Using the stick method I get my 4 knife 16" jointer setup in maybe a half hour to 45 minutes, and all I care about is when I run stock I get a good clean surface. Using the machine almost daily I usually get about a year to a year and a half out of a set of knives, so not something that needs to be done often. I have nothing against the insert heads mind you, but one for my 16" would cost more than what I paid for the machine:(

So I guess my overall point is that the jointer need not be a source of frustration, but with a little attention can be the "go to" machine in a shop:D

good luck,
JeffD

[Richard Coers]

Well said Jeff. I take as much pride in my machinery as I do my woodworking. It's want being a craftsman or artisan is all about. Setting up and using machinery properly is just part of the skills needed to do good work.

[Jim Matthews]

I'm the contrarian, here.

I think that if you have the space and budget, they can be useful.
If you lack space, small jointers are little better than working by hand - unless you set up extension tables, it's difficult to manage long boards.

I suppose that most of us hobbyist produce one or two pieces of furniture, per year.
That makes it cost effective to buy lumber s4s, over thickness and get it dead square in the shop.

I don't work on anything longer than 38", really.
I rarely have boards dressed wider than 9".

I can manage that by hand, without much trouble
and still park two cars in the garage.

FYI - I came within $150 of buying a nice DJ-20 locally and didn't really have the space for it.

If you're buying lots of rough lumber, these are essential.
If you buy lumber off Craigslist out of a duffer's basement stash, you probably don't need a jointer.

[Mark Wooden]

I'm in lock step with JeffD, my jointers are set up the same way. I'd part with my bandsaw, sander, RAS, mitresaw, shaper right down to my tablesaw first. I can work the stock by hand easily as long as it's flat and has one straight edge 90 degrees to it.
Get the jointer.

[Sam Murdoch]

To David Smith - the jointer is one of my favorite and essential tools. Yes, you can do it all with hand planes but a jointer well tuned is more of a life saver than an anchor to your average woodworker.

To Michael Weber - Like Glenn, I'm feeling bad for you. Please get help. Not being a wise guy. Go to a show or a good dealer and learn how to use the jointer and you will be well rewarded. Yes, it can be a real pain if not set up properly and if you have not learned the basic of use. I once watched a guy pushing 2"x10" white oak planks over a jointer from the outfeed table to the infeed table. I asked him how it was going and suggested that he might have better results going in the other direction. His response - "what difference does it make" :eek:. That guy still thinks the jointer is useless.

I am a huge proponent of the jointer as a shop essential and like you Mike "There is nothing not good about peanut butter" I am a huge proponent of peanut butter as a life essential. :D

[Michael Weber]

To David Smith - the jointer is one of my favorite and essential tools. Yes, you can do it all with hand planes but a jointer well tuned is more of a life saver than an anchor to your average woodworker.

To Michael Weber - Like Glenn, I'm feeling bad for you. Please get help. Not being a wise guy. Go to a show or a good dealer and learn how to use the jointer and you will be well rewarded. Yes, it can be a real pain if not set up properly and if you have not learned the basic of use. I once watched a guy pushing 2"x10" white oak planks over a jointer from the outfeed table to the infeed table. I asked him how it was going and suggested that he might have better results going in the other direction. His response - "what difference does it make" :eek:. That guy still thinks the jointer is useless.

I am a huge proponent of the jointer as a shop essential and like you Mike "There is nothing not good about peanut butter" I am a huge proponent of peanut butter as a life essential. :D
Sam, I need to change my sig. I started making my own PB as commercial varieties contain bad fats. Became aware of that after quad heart bypass. Ugh. Bought Smucker's natural for a while. It was the only so called "natural" that contained only peanuts (with salt). Started buying the big cans of peanuts at Sam's club and making my own in a small food processor. Maybe I'll try processing them on my Delta 6 inch jointer somehow. That way I'd get some use out of it.:rolleyes:

[Jim Matthews]

Maybe I'll try processing them on my Delta 6 inch jointer somehow. That way I'd get some use out of it.:rolleyes:

Just remember to disconnect the DC. Maybe retrofit the dust port with a Mason Jar lid...
It's the "Hydrogenated" peanut butters that are creamier by virtue of the transfatty acids the process creates.

Quadruple bypass?
Wow.

[Sam Murdoch]

"There is nothing not good about all natural peanut butter" Goes without saying :D, but don't mess up a great tool with peanut butter. Really, the jointer can be a great tool!