Cabinet Tool Purchases Feedback Requested

[Matty Acosta]

Hey everyone,

I have a small construction company here in NM and we're looking at moving into the cabinet making industry, mostly for ourselves. I've been researching and looking at purchasing some equipment to help us venture into this endeavor and also make it efficient as we don't have the luxury of spending a month or two to build cabinets.

Without breaking the bank completely I've come up with the following list. Just looking to get some feedback on if this list is sufficient or something overlooked/missed to put on the list.

1. oneida smart dust collector mobile
2. powermatic pm2700 shaper, single phase, 3hp
3. grizzly G0609X 12" jointer / spiral cutter
4. grizzly G0699 12" sliding table saw/ w scoring blade
5. grizzly G0611X 16 1/2" dovetail machine

6. Woodmaster 18" or 25", undecided.


I know I'm missing a sander, was looking at the big grizzly wide-belt, but it's pricey after buying all the above. Recently wood master has their double drum sander on sale that looks pretty decent, any feedbacks on their drum sanders? Model 5075x2 50" Double Drum Sander (7.5HP, 220V, 31 amp., TEFC Motor).


I have other equipment not mentioned above, festool stuff mostly (ts 75 trac saw, 36 dust extractor, of 2200, of 1400, domino xl, etc.), dewalt planer 735, various circ saws etc.

Already have HVLP guns for staining, including turbine units, and also AA systems.


Any input would be great and thank you in advance!

[John Sanford]

How are you planning on hanging the doors?

If you're planning on adjustable shelving in the cabinetry, how do you intend to drill the holes?

[Loren Woirhaye]

Some thread on Woodweb said something like "if you have to ask about machinery, you have no idea what you're getting into."

The Grizzly slider may let you down. Seriously. You haven't mentioned an edgebander, which goes with a slider and a line boring machine for frameless casework. For face frame, a stop system (Tigerstop, Accurate Technologies) is important and it's usually set up with a pop-up saw or chop saw for cutting frame parts. You're trapped into face frame work if you don't have an edgebander (read up about 3mm edgebanding and the machines that can do it and think about whether you want to bid those kind of commercial jobs or use 3mm banding as a selling point for custom work), so pocket screws, I presume? A Kreg jig won't do for a production outfit, you need a "drill tub". Then there's the pneumatic table for putting together face frames and clamps for the doors and a construction or line boring machine to bang out the lines of holes. You don't need a fancy jointer for cabinet work - a 6" unit will suffice and some shops don't use them at all, though those shops probably don't specialize in doors.

Drum sanders suck. Look at stroke sanders if you can't get a wide belt. You don't need a Powermatic shaper but if you want to make doors (I don't especially recommend it), look at getting 2 or 3 cheaper shapers or used 3 head unit. For running edge profiles and raised panels you'll need a power feeder. You'll still have to sand the profiles by hand unless you get a profile sander and you'll need a head for every profile.

Dovetailing drawer boxes sounds like a lot of work. You can outsource them. A stroke sander is the best tool for sanding glued up dovetail drawer boxes too.

I could go on, but it would help if you defined what sort of cabinet you want to make and what parts you don't want to outsource and why (by default you've implied you want to make your own doors and dovetailed drawer boxes, which are among the most common outsourced cabinet parts because the big operations can do it cheaper with computerized sanders and other specialized machines).

[Mark Bolton]

I'll agree with the others sentiments, your way short and choosing grizzly in an attempt to cut costs is a big mistake. You'd be far better off to buy used so you can get more, and better, tools. Your miles away on dust collection alone and as other have mentioned you missing many other essentials but perhaps this isn't your complete list.

All the information is out there especially on the other site mentioned. I'd say if you don't have any of it (equipment as well as information) you'd be wise sot start wrapping your head around at least double if not triple the investments you have listed above by the time your ready to start. And even at that you'd have just a toe in the water.

[Stephen Cherry]

I could go on, but it would help if you defined what sort of cabinet you want to make

In my opinion deciding what you want to build would be the absolute first decision, before any machine or tooling is considered. I was talking to a pro a while back with maybe 25 years of running a shop. He told me that if he was starting over again it would be cnc and edgbander for frameless cabinets, outsourcing the doors and drawers.

That said, it seems to me that if you have a construction company, it may be great to have a source for really nice cabinets. By "nice" I mean that the ends and toekicks of the cabinets are nicely finished, with a good transition from front to side. Maybe inset doors with beaded face frames. Maybe transition in depth around the sink. Finished ends for frigerator. Things like that.

[Matty Acosta]

Thanks everyone. Yes, it appears now that I should have been more precise about what I was going to use all this stuff for or at least my intentions.

The reason for the 12" jointer is that we work a lot of times with 12" wide boards for shelving, we do all solid wood shelving in the houses. In addition we also plan on building exterior gates, I get a lot of requests to do so and right now I don't feel I have the capacity to handle larger gates. Here in the southwest people are wanting thick beefy gates with distressing etc. Doing the research I figured a 12" wouldn't let me down as I've seen lots of posts about people complaining of wishing they owned a bigger jointer. If I'm going to be spending money on one, I might as well have a bigger one and not have to say I need to spend a couple thousand more because we out grew it in 3 months or some time frame.

I already own a 12" planer, but it's a hand planer. Comes in useful with the beams we deal with.

On another note, the grizzly stuff. I've read mixed reviews, some people hate it, other say they've really improved their equipment and are (for the money) pretty reliable machines. I guess the jury is still out on that one, but I'm interested in hearing feedback regardless, especially with regards to the models I had looked at. I guess the concern is that they won't last/get out of balance sooner than later?

As for the edgebanding / faceless cabinets, I don't plan on producing those right off the bat. Doing the research they have to be cut very precisely, usually take more time and more money to produce. Here in cheapville most people (90% to 95%) all have face frame cabinets. So I figure why try to buck the trend right now when just getting started and get into them, especially if they are harder to do/require more equipment.
In new construction I figure a bulk of the cabinets are melamine inside with either laminated or solid wood doors, soft closing hinges, toe kicks of course, and that's about it, other than the usual built-in oven/drop in cook-top. What I would like to do is produce carcasses out of plywood, I know others think it twists or warps, I've had plenty of them installed and built without having that issue. Maybe 5 years from now, but then again, I have cabinets that are 20 years old with no issue...plywood. I think it speaks more quality, yes more work on stain/finish, but the customer is going to know that when they see it. Doing some preliminary math, we'd still be way cheaper than the box stores or other cabinet makers. I've seen some builders put in face frame, melamine interior cabs with solid doors for $18k. The stuff probably didn't take more than 8k to produce, with labor. Just a complete rip off job for the customer and of course they thought they had paid the highest amount for the best cabinets out there, I just don't like seeing people being taken advantage of, so that's another reason why we're looking at getting into it. A lot of people don't know because the option isn't out there for affordable built, quality cabinets.

Most of the cabinet makers' setups I've seen locally and in the next town over, in my opinion are micky mouse operations. They have several routers setup a certain way without having to constantly change them. They hand sand things, a basic thickness planer, a modified table saw to handle sheet goods, a paint booth setup, and that's about it. I did see a few with vertical panel saws and an E-Z Door machine to help crank out the raised panel arch-tops etc.

As for dovetails most of the stuff I've gotten from cabinets makers or seen is not dovetailed. If we produce drawer cabinets I think dovetails are pretty strong and I feel they give the sense of greater quality, I know I would want/ask for them in my own house. I'll have to check prices for dovetail drawers that come already pre-assmebled, my initial thought is that the shipping costs would kill any idea of that as we're out in the middle of now where according to the rest of the U.S.

In a nutshell: Yes there are more things to buy like the boring machines or at least templates for drilling holes for shelf pins. I might have to break down and buy the wide-belt sander with platen, the cost of the 50" was what was putting me off, with large gate assemblies or even large doors or other things we might be making I figure don't limit myself on size. Profile sanders would be a good addition, like a mop sander because I could use the mop sander to do profiles for baseboard/casing as well (hence the wood master on the list).

What i plan on producing is:
- Face frame cabinets, more than likely utilizing pocket hole joinery
- Large entry/courtyard gates (4ft wide up to 12ft wide, even if it has to get broken down in 2 doors).
- Moulding profiles (base/casing)
- Would like the capacity to create t&g for either flooring or also for ceiling, we use a lot of ceiling t&g
- General wood working projects
- Plan on utilizing Blum hinges/drawer hardware, as they seem to have a good quality reputation. I'm sure there are others out there just as good, maybe even better. The customers seem to know the brand when I speak with them. (No I'm not taking orders, when I refer to current customers it's for houses etc.)

I hope this helps and like I said thanks again for all the feedback you all provide.

Edit:
As for the used tools, I think it's a great idea but i'm very leery about it. I've bought other tools used and normally within a year they have to have parts replaced etc. I just don't like the idea of not knowing how badly someone abused their machine before they dump it off on someone else. In my experience, I have not had GOOD experience with used equipment. Plus of course there isn't any warranty typically, so if things go wrong and you need to have someone answer for it...your on your own. Not out of the question at this point since it's a lot of equipment to purchase, but I'm leery about it...it isn't my first go-to solution let's put it that way.

[Joe Jensen]

I didn't see where in the Southwest you work. I live in the Phoenix area there is a very active used tool market here. For what you are looking to do I would STRONGLY recommend used commercial equipment over new advanced hobbiest stuff. Between Phoenix, LA, and Vegas there is a ton of used commercial stuff.

On Cabinets, I've looked at this many times and I just can't see how building my own would make sense. There are now a ton of shops with CNC routers and many will run jobs for you. I strongly believe that within 5 years or so there will be very few shops that survive who don't use CNC for cabinets. The quality is better, there are NO errors, and you need less skilled labor. I would start by going to a CNC dealer to get a good demo. I visited the Onsrud dealer in Tempe AZ a few years ago and I was blown away. They also had a list of shops who would run outside jobs.

For solid wood I would get a 12" jointer and a heavy 20" or 24" planer. There always seem to be SCMI 20" planers on Craig's list here for around $2500. WAY more planer than the others mentioned.

Lastly, nearly every shop I talk to is moving to CNC for the boxes, and outsourcing the doors. For a rehab flip we just did I bought red oak raised panel doors for $6 per sq ft. They were sanded to maybe 120 grit. Just a but of sanding and they were ready to spray. No way I could make doors for that cost.

Lastly, on buying used tools I think the "break within a year" applies more to the lower end of the spectrum. I've bought several used industrial tools, some 40 years old and none even needed bearings replaced. If you have the money for new that's fine, but new Grizzly and used SCMI are not even in the same universe.

[Jeff Duncan]

My first suggestion is to really think about what you want to do. Reading through your post it sounds like your trying to make everything in your shop! That's a tough way to go to be efficient and profitable. Now if you narrow it down to just making cabinets I would offer some things to consider.....the main one being outsourcing! You can order all your cabinet parts, doors, drawers to size and have them delivered. This would likely be the most profitable way for you to go. If you are going to build in house your going to want a good slider, edgebander, and boring machine. These are your primary machines that will make you money.....I don't recommend going too cheap here! If your building cabinets, FF or frameless, you need square and consistently sized parts. Your shelves still need to be banded....your not going to use solid wood in kitchen cabinets. You can use plywood for kitchen cabinet boxes, but if you decide to also start doing closet cabinetry your going to want/need to use melamine. I could go on and on but there's just too many options when your trying to be a "jack-of-all-trades" shop!

As for equipment it comes down to what your comfortable with. I know there's a lot of pro shops that are happy with their Grizzly equipment. I would personally avoid their lower end stuff and focus on the better stuff. Which of course would be more expensive than similar used industrial equipment. I gave up on most newer machinery several years back and have now replaced almost all of it with older more robust equipment. I also recommend buying the biggest and best you can afford. For a commercial shop working with solids 16" is standard jointer size and 20" is pretty common for planer. Skip the Powermatic and buy an industrial shaper....believe me you'll save money in the short run! Also skip the dovetail machine, that's a lot of money for a single purpose machine for what's basically a start-up. Use that money towards better equipment and outsource your boxes. If your busy enough and want to bring them in house down the road you can buy yourself a Dodds.

anyway that's all I have time for now, but there's a lot to think about before you open the wallet;)
JeffD

[Mark Bolton]

Your getting a lot of great information. Do some serious homework. The other site mentioned will give you a lot of information on this specific topic if you search the archives. Several recent threads on your very subject.

Don't short yourself on the research and leg work. Take the time to rough out a business plan. Do a take off on a recent kitchen down to the last screw and minute. Thinking you can be profitable selling a kitchen at 8k that another shop sold for 18k either means you live in the land of suckers (in which case let me know cause I'm moving) or your missing a major part of the financial puzzle in your math. Stating that most of your customers are basic bread and butter doesn't jive with someone paying 10k over something's worth.

Work hard at your issues with high quality industrial used equipment. No one here is talking about you buying a used hobby table saw. The suggestions pertain to heavy industrial machines that can often be had for comparable prices to what your looking at and out perform them hands down.

It's easy to look at these new ventures as if it's like picking up hundred dollar bills off the sidewalk but I don't know that Ive ever heard that to be true in reality.

We have a shop as part of out GC business. I have been doing this for nearly 25 years. In the real world most generally you simply can't build something for what you can buy them for. Some things yes, but bread and butter things, no.

Sounds like your gate business is your most viable and maybe small customs beyond that. Reproduction mouldings in very short runs. The rest of it is worth a go but you may find it tougher than you think. But you'll have little chance without the larger necessities mentioned (slider, edge bander, line bore, industrial shaper(s), much bigger dc, sander, and we haven't even touched a booth, spray rig, hand tools, and so on.

[Loren Woirhaye]

I edge band with a hot press. It's a nearly bomb proof machine with little to go wrong with it... unlike an auto-feed edge bander. It is not quite as fast but it doesn't cook glue or need much maintenance. It can also put wider stock on a shelf edge or for bullnosing. Terry Cain wrote about his methods here: http://www.woodcentral.com/bparticles/edgebanding2.shtml

[Richard Coers]

You need to watch this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VBi4zroEj1w

Grizzly tools are sold as a value machine that you get what you pay for them. They are not machines to be used 8 hrs a day, 6 days a week. You said, "As for the edgebanding / faceless cabinets, I don't plan on producing those right off the bat. Doing the research they have to be cut very precisely, usually take more time and more money to produce." How can it take more time to make a frameless cabinet with 5 parts (no door) compared to a faceframe on that has 9 parts? Are you counting the hardwood prep, cutting, sanding, joining, and gluing on the cabinet box for the faceframe? Have you made any frameless? Are you suggesting you don't have to cut face frame cabinets accurately? Watch the video. The customers you think you want to build for barely exist these days. I suggest a lot more research!

[Matty Acosta]

Thanks all, yes your right getting very good feedback. I appreciate all the insight.

Joe, glad to hear the phoenix market has a good used section. I live in NM, in the south, near the texas border. Maybe a trip to Az for some used eq might be necessary. The majority seem to be going with used industrial eq as a better option.

As far as one shop doing it all, it really isnt so but appears like it. Basic stuff won't be made but bought.

The reason it seems we're doing alot is because we do/will. I am a residential home builder here and the prices vs. Quality vs. Options is very very low without completely blowing a hole in the budget. We do a lot of in house work already and I plan on doing more.

Here's an example (true example): I get 2 choices for stain grade base/casing for right around $1.25 or so/linear foot. No staining just raw. Now if I hire/sub a painter that's several hundred more depending on if that company was used to paint the house or not (volume). Then comes the installer yhats going to charge a hundred or two to install it, again based on volume.

In relation, I've cranked out molding at right around $1.35 with stain and finish and installation.
As a comparable I've had guys want to charge $1 per foot just to install the molding. I hate to say it and I'm sure i'm in the company of some that don't want to hear it, but the prices for stuff out there is just ridiculous. Stupidly ridiculous. Even though I could pass the cost on like most and not really care, knowing what I know I can't take advantage of my customers like that.

As for cabinets, the lowest bid I've ever received was for $6,500 installed. I'll get the measurements later tonight. That's for the full house btw. Kitchen cabs, vanities, and uppers in laundry with crown molding in kitchen and laundry room.

Normally I will pay around 9k to 10k for the whole house and the cab guys mark up is around 20 to 30%. That is me working with a supplier in another state who was very hard to find. The local shops have at least a 50% mark up of costs and materials. I haven't found a supplier that is under 10k. Most average between 15k for the kitchen only, vanities etc are more to around 18k plus. For the same type of cabinets as I get made out of state with my supplier.

As for why someone would pay more and get less, sorry to say but it happens on a daily basis. As far as my business is concerned, I routinely build the same or more square footage with more custom amenities than my competitors for 60k to 150k less on a daily basis. And yes we stay busy hence the in road to providing our customers with top quality products at good pricing by doing in house work.

And no, the in housing of work is not an attempt to be cheap or get cheaper. Finding custom made cabinets, moldings etc at very affordable prices is very hard without in housing.

In fact some banks won't even lend money to cab makers without references and us swearing by them because they have gotten burnt before, people taking the money and running, etc. Why pay 5k or 10k more for simply being reliable? When the available option is to make them yourself with better quality for less. Initial investment and a learning curve, nothing we haven't experienced before.

Easy? No definitely not.
Worth the knowledge and experience and possibility of greater things? Yes. I believe so.

[Joe Jensen]

Matty, have you looked at buying the parts and assembling onsite? There are several suppliers who will custom machine the box parts and ship in a flat box. Lots of material choices and options. Same with drawer parts. I buy all my drawers from a place in Mesa AZ that just makes drawers. I am getting dovetailed drawers for about what the materials cost me. He buys materials by the train car load and he has the specialized equipment that enables him to knock them out quickly, accurately, and cheaply. You can buy assembled or shipped unassembled to save shipping. Same for doors and drawer fronts. I've read that a lot of "custom" kitchen suppliers are now going this route. Here is one link, http://keystonewood.com/rta-cabinets/about-rta-cabinets/ Price out your kitchen with their online tool to compare. The same goes for cabinet doors and drawers.

[Joe Jensen]

Here is a great video of the Keystone cabinet system. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M2FCYK-YqBs I have no idea how they are priced but I was at the IWS in Atlanta a little over a year ago and there were several of these suppliers there and the prices were VERY competitive.

[johnny means]

Matty, I am Cabinetmaker, capital c. I've worked in many shops doing everything from melamine boxes to hand carved corbels and everything in between. I've been in business for myself for 10 years. Please don't take offense, but a lot of what you've stated shows a gross misunderstanding of the business. My advice would be to dig in and do a lot more research. Start out manufacturing one particular item, maybe cabinet boxes. Outsource doors and drawer boxes until you've got a handle on what millwork involves.

[Matty Acosta]

Hello Johnny, no offense at all. But I think there might be a misunderstanding of the full scope of what needs to be done. As a company, the way our business model works, we actually need to produce many of the important detail things inside a home ourselves. It might be good to outsource doors/drawers, but either way, we need to do as much as makes sense in house. In a nutshell, others don't in source things and therefore they suffer quality issues, dependability issues, and last but not least they can't compete with us on price.

Cheap tract home builders...well...they have their own business model and their own way of doing things. But those aren't who our competitors are nor do we strive to replicate what they do. Two different animals.

[Mark Bolton]

As joe has stated if your looking for commercial options for quality cabs and haven't found them you haven't looked enough.

There are dozens of suppliers of various grades of cabinetry. Give Conestoga a look. We are setup wit them and you can get anything from a slumlord grade on up to nearly full custom. Finished or unfinished. Any specs you choose.

The caveat is if you have market that is willing to pay MORE for a locally crafted cabinet. I'm not sure from your post if that's the case or not. You simply can't compete with the company joe mentions who is focused on a single task and buying in massive quantities. The only option is an up-sell to a cabinet crafted locally from a shop that's buying less than rail car quantities but taking more pains. If your customers will pay more your in.

Maybe it's the case but I wasn't sure there were many regions left in the country with absolutely no distribution of lines like diamond, kraft maid, merrilat, or equivalent.

With regards to trim again I'm not sure how you can get raw stock, mill it (without a 5 head moulder), finish, and install, for such numbers but it seems you have the data. For us anything stain grade is going to be close to a buck a board foot rough. We'd have way more than 40-50 cents in the milling, stain, and finish coat even with a 2:1 on footage. Forget about install.

If your profitability is truly where you say investing it bigger equipment would seem to be a no brainer. You could lock the place up.

[Jim Andrew]

I didn't see a Kreg pocket screw machine. Pocket screws make face frames easy. You can buy the doors from numerous companies. Doors will make you crazy, unless you just limit it to square raised panel. As far as the mitered doors, or cathedral raised panel, order them. If you just make boxes, drawers, assemble and finish, that will be plenty to take on. The secret to a successful cabinet shop is measuring. If you are sloppy measuring on the job, you will have lots of boxes to rebuild.

[Matty Acosta]

Hello Mark, like I said I'm not attempting to take over the market place or what not. I'm sure for mdf type molding/composite we probably aren't that cheap, but for people who want a stain job in their homes we do a pretty decent job at trying to accomplish what they want without breaking the budget. Helps us compete overall like I said earlier.

I've actually switched a lot of our staining over to almost all waterbased as the speed of drying, including top coats are just amazing. Just one way we save money with some of the casing/moldings.

And Jim, I did look into the Kreg systems, they also have an assembly table that didn't look too bad either. Do you use them or have feedback on them?

[Loren Woirhaye]

Some people like the Castle or Ritter pocket hole format better. The angles vary.

[Mark Bolton]

Water based is a smart move in today's world. We've been spraying WB post cat CV on all of our cabs for a long time now. Harder to work with on cabinetry and definitely not as nice as solvent but less EPA and health issues so it works for us

[Stephen Cherry]

, I did look into the Kreg systems, they also have an assembly table that didn't look too bad either. Do you use them or have feedback on them?

I've got a Kreg machine- it seems pretty nice to me. I think I paid around 800 or 850 for it, which is pretty nice for a 3k machine.

Also, I would strongly suggest used machines. This would allow you to get going with a much reduced investment, and if it does not work out, you can move on without loosing your shirt. One option would be to focus on one aspect at a time. For example, you could start with the cases and get a slider with digital fence and crosscut (I consider the digital scales a big plus for added repeatability), line bore machine, etc, to start building the boxes and sub out doors.


Then as good industrial machines pop up, and they will, you go with the doors. I would suggest at least two good Italian shapers. Maybe one scmi t110 and a t130. As a reference I paid about 850 at the auction for my t110, with a 3 wheel feeder, out the door which was a great price, but 2-4k will get you into some nice machines on a regular basis. There is lots of information in past threads about the different ways to build a door, and there are several different strategies that each have advantages and disadvantages.

For jointers, I have an older griz 12" jointer, and it is fine. That said, 16" plus is the way to go.

[Jeff Duncan]

Matty, I'm just curious....are you tracking individual processes to see if they are profitable? Or is it a question of subsidizing certain parts of the job and making more on others? The reason I ask is that $1.35 for molding milled, stained, finished and installed is cheaper than most places will sell you the raw stock! Even without any details on type/size of molding, wood species etc., I just don't understand how that particular product works without your labor being free?

As for the quality issues, a cabinet side is a cabinet side. I can't make a 3/4" plywood or melamine cabinet side any better than the next guy. I make mine b/c I do mostly one-off's as opposed to say doing a lot of kitchens. So if you were inclined to, you could outsource your box parts and have them delivered to your door ready to go. Short term this would free up a lot of capitol to be used elsewhere since the parts would be drilled and banded ready to assemble. Drawers and doors are a bit different as there are different levels of quality. However there's no way you can make a drawer box for what it costs to buy one which is why most shops these days outsource their boxes.

Just some things to think about while formulating your plan. Only you know your market and what will work for you, but there are some aspects that are nearly universal to all shops in this country;)

good luck,
JeffD

[Mark Bolton]

Matty,
Im sure this sounds like a "pile on" but just dont take it as that. Its not to say you simply accept everything anyone has posted but keep in mind your getting input from people who are fully in the business. This is why I keep referencing the other site mentioned in one of the replies you received. Its not to knock SMC but the other site is for business only. You can read and post all you want but you will have to check a box when posting that your topic is of a professional business nature and not a hobby/homeowner question. This means the vast majority of what you will find there will include information which pertains to making money, viability, and looking at the hard facts of your ventures, and taking out the guess work, hopes, emotion, and so on.

The viability of your endeavor is easily quantifiable in a simple, small, rough, business plan. Simply sit down and calculate your costs for raw stock, the time, trucking, shop time, electric bill, heat bill, cooling bill, telephone, blade sharpening, dumpster, fork lift maintenance, profit, growth, on and on, then your finish costs, sand paper, sealers, finish, depreciation on your equipment, truck time again, delivery, installation, again depreciation on equipment, billing and paperwork costs, all of it. Thats when you find your true costs on the 1.35/ft molding. I can only guess it will be much higher.

To be completely honest, by the sounds of your posts our operation have some similarities. For instance we are completing a 5k sq' home at the moment where every stick of trim, every cabinet, medicine cabinet, vanity, laundry cabs, door, drawer box, all of it came out of our shop. Its not cheaper. Is it better? Of course. But its not cheaper. While your framing your house who is running the trim? Who's building the kitchen cabs while your running trim? Who's installing trim while your in the shop building cab's? Now you have to add payroll, training, comp, unemployment insurance (high turnover industry), insurance, and so on, to that business plan.

You can quantify the cost benefit of all of this very easily with a pen and paper before youve looked at the first tool brochure.

Personally, I resist outsourcing of my parts as do my customers. My customers want a cabinet that "I" made. They want a cabinet that uses as many materials harvested and processed locally. Local hardwoods, local sawing operation, local drying, and made locally by me. But that costs more. Its not even in the realm of the "el cheapo land" you referenced in one of your posts. So for me most often ordering in my doors or drawers would be met by my customers with a bit of question. That said, I am happy to make every component of the cabinets but I simply cant do it for what I can order them in for. There is just no possible way the math will ever work out unless I do one thing and one thing only, and thats devalue my labor. Im not interested in chasing the lumber yards, home centers, and spec. home builders, to the bottom of the barrel. I simply can in no way make the stuff they put in there homes cheaper than they are buying it. I could never do a run of off the shelf trim for what it costs to buy it. I couldnt even come close!

All your receiving, at least the way I read it, is words of caution to do your homework prior to. Because your simply not even going to have a chance doing it with hobby level equipment. You may bang out a few custom built-in's here and there but the work your talking about doing is a long way from that. A house worth of trim alone on a woodmaster would be a bankrupting endeavor. A few custom runs of trim, some curved work (high $$) sure.

Just my $0.02

[C Scott McDonald]

You need to watch this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VBi4zroEj1w

LOL! So true!

[Jim Andrew]

I just have the kreg jig, but really like the pocket hole system for face frames. I used to build the cabinets in houses I built, the realtors made a big deal over them and it seemed to help sell my houses.

[Matty Acosta]

Hello Jeff, yes for us it was approximately that price. If you take it to a higher level such as the post that Mark Bolton made then it might be more adding in the cost of minutes for your telephone, the cost of gas it took to get to work etc. I find few people who actually add up every penny, I do know a few, mostly tract home builders or mass production plants. It's a great way to look at things, but you have to take it with a grain of salt. Important stuff should be added no doubt about it. But if you stop to get coffee on the way to work, do you subtract the first gallon for personal use and the additional 1/2 gallon to actually get from the coffee shop to work as work related? Sometimes it's too hard to shave pennies.

The way I see it is important stuff should be added, electricity, heating/cooling yes, and maybe a few other things. Of course your raw lumber, finish, labor etc which is obviously the correct way to do it. But one can also go too far with it.

As for adding in my delivery costs, $19 delivered to our yard or I get it myself (10 minute drive with traffic lights), don't know what that comes out to. Each job has to be priced individually because what if someone wants only 10 pieces vs. 100 pieces? The $1.35 was for pine, but this isn't unlike Home Depot or Lowes where they sell pine as well for around the same amount of money, but no finish and no install of course. If I remember right we ran around 880 linear feet for that job.

And as for used equipment, yes I've started looking around the internet and I've found a few good things from Martin and Felder, have to do more research.

Mark Bolton:
Yes, I completely agree with you, I definitely need to do more homework. I have actually been over on the other forum reading various threads on equipment and different things people have asked about processing/processes. Very informative.

As for adding everything up, like I said above, I think its a great idea...in a business plan yes you would do all of that for sure. I believe all important things should be added into the cost without a doubt. I agree with you on the local building of the cabinets/parts because a lot of people value that, just like a lot of people are valuing "GREEN" products and processes. I'll put money on the fact that your cabinets are better built that most of the stuff from home depot/lowes or most mass produced products, and I haven't even seen your product(s). It sounds like your very thorough in what you do and also you take care to produce quality stuff by not cheapening things or as you say devaluing your labor, very much respected and appreciated in this current world setup.

My question to you is: Why do you say that a house worth of trim on a woodmaster would be a bankrupting endeavor? I'm not sure I see how or why that would be so, looking at the specs it can process quite a bit of lumber. In softer wood you don't think it could do the process in one pass, I assume? I'm assuming the only alternative would be to use a shaper with a power feeder, because running stock by hand up against the blade I feel would have too much play and work too slowly. I only ask because I'm curious and at the same time it's part of doing my homework, learning.

Thank you for helping and chiming in the $0.02 cents is actually worth a whole lot more, you'd be surprised.

[Loren Woirhaye]

I think it's hyperbolic to say running a lot of trim on a Woodmaster will make you go broke, but the machine does not sand the trim, so you have to do that somehow if it's finish grade. Some people have access to local hardwoods so cheap they can build furniture and giant sculpted things using ridiculous amounts of board footage and sell the work for prices I would not even consider, but in the Southwest that's generally not the case. Down here we have to pay a pretty penny for hardwoods and when you look at the prices some big outfits can supply mouldings at (using 5 head machines) the multi-step (plus hand sanding) aspect of using a Woodmaster or shaper to do it starts to look like a lot of labor hours.

[Mark Bolton]

It's that way anywhere Loren. At the very least you have two operations to their one with relieving the back. In any slightly more complex moldings you could have three or more operations to their one. That's after preparing the blanks and before sanding. It's the unfortunate fact. It'd be like me thinking I can be productive with larger runs because we have a W&H in the shop. I'd be better off running any and all I can on the shaper because feed rates are so much higher.

Just just a fact of a single process vs multiples.

I'm not saying it can be done because as I said, we just did it, but it costs more.

[Loren Woirhaye]

Point taken. Woodmaster has this sort of advertising thing they do which makes it seem like there is big bucks (or savings) in running mouldings with the machines. Maybe in some remote areas with dirt cheap sawn lumber it's true. I really don't know.

I sold a machine a while back to a guy who said his uncle had a cabinet shop in Alaska and had sold all the machines (pretty much) and bought a big German moulder and is running many thousands of lineal feet per month on it with only a few guys and shipping softwood mouldings down the West coast and making more money doing that than running a custom shop. Maybe they do hardwoods too.

[Mark Bolton]

Matty,
The things that get added up are simply all the things that go into the cost of you doing business. It's just the way it is. All those dollars, every last one, has to come from somewhere. And if they aren't listed as business expenses they are coming out of your pocket/profit. But in this instance any expenses that aren't accounted for in making the trim give you a false sense of profitability.

Of course running a house of trim alone isn't going to bankrupt you but if you think it through you'll be tough to be profitable if your trying to match/duplicate a mass produced off the shelf profile and species. (Read your competing agains a gut who just goes out and buys it)

You have to:
Order the material (which will cost more because of small quantities and waste)
Take delivery or go pick up material
Sort/grade handle the raw stock
Own and maintain machinery and building
Dimension
Relieve the back (one pass at a feed rate that pales in comparison to a moulder )
Re-tool
Run the face (at a feed rate that pales in comparison)
Collect and dispose of chips
Run extra material to cover waste
Much more hand sanding than purchased stock because your finish off the machine won't be as clean
Bundle and wrap

At about this point you'll be at the exact place of standing in front of your salesman at the lumberyard saying "I need 880' of 2 1/4" colonial casing" and you pull around back and slide it in your truck.

All your costs along the way will be high simply because of a small operation and slower production speeds. This is why these options are used more for custom, unique, non-commercially available species and shapes.

[Sam Murdoch]

Mark Bolton has been the voice of reason on this thread. So many construction companies have had the idea that they could control costs and product quality by setting up their own cabinet shop. At that point they have one leg of a 4 legged stool. Leg 1 - the shop, but leg 2,3 & 4 are too short if not altogether missing- design capability, sales capability, and finally talent at the bench. No these are not the same 4 legs that support the construction company.

The OP writes about building custom cabinets for a discerning clientele, also exterior gates, and running millwork. These are all related but still disparate operations that require so much more equipment than what can be needed for a cabinet shop operation, therefore, it is difficult to answer the opening question. Though it might seem that Mark has gotten off into the weeds with his posts I think he is doing the OP a great service.

[Mark Bolton]

I'll put money on the fact that your cabinets are better built that most of the stuff from home depot/lowes or most mass produced products, and I haven't even seen your product(s). It sounds like your very thorough in what you do and also you take care to produce quality stuff by not cheapening things or as you say devaluing your labor, very much respected and appreciated in this current world setup.

I wouldnt say they are better. I would say they are comparable. They are better in some ways in that they are fully custom, closer relationship and interaction with the customer design wise, and local. I would have no choice but to concede that a large manufacturer has most small shops easily beat on quality control of raw materials. Climate control of storage and manufacturing (big issues to bite you there). And hands down they have a better hand hold on finishing technically and econmically. The finishes are probably one of the hardest things to beat a commercial manufacturer on in my opinion. Its a massively expensive and intensive part of the process.


My question to you is: Why do you say that a house worth of trim on a woodmaster would be a bankrupting endeavor? I'm not sure I see how or why that would be so, looking at the specs it can process quite a bit of lumber. In softer wood you don't think it could do the process in one pass, I assume? I'm assuming the only alternative would be to use a shaper with a power feeder

Keep in mind I was mainly referring to trying to compete against moldings you buy every day of the week off the shelf in a common species.

These moldings are made like this but faster --> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g0nbgwVigBc or like this --> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PzrI9ctSN74

One pass, super fast feed rates, board goes in, finished product comes out, floor is clean.

In a small shop (mine) with any type of single head machine your going to have a starting point of 2 passes minimum (after having prepared your blanks) and probably half or less the feed rate. So what it takes that machine an hour to do it will take us several. More sanding. Then of course your material and overhead costs.

To get a decent price on raw stock we are probably looking at minimums of maybe 10/MBF? (tractor trailer quantities).

I only mentioned the shaper because in our shop its the only other option for running with more power and higher feed rates (equal more production) on profiles that work for its capacity. However even at that you are likely still multi-pass with the bare minimum being two (one back and one front).

As another post mentioned perhaps its good to setup with growth in mind and start setting up a shop focusing on your most profitable items first. As you feel it out you progressively move further and further into your list of items to make adding the needed equipment as you go. At least that way you learn as you go and dont wind up with a bunch of equipment you didnt need or wish youd could trade for something else.

[Mark Bolton]

LOL! So true!


Here is the companion video, both very poignant.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m9hIXiM-yrY

[Jeff Duncan]

I consider all my costs to be billable. It's not necessary for me to break it down to the gallon and where I drive. Instead I look at how much gas I use for the month, how much time I invest in hours. I don't try to micro manage every penny, but I do bill for my full day, and if I stop for a cup of coffee during the work day then it's billable;)

As mentioned before I don't want to sound like I know everything, or that I'm piling on you here. I'm a woodworker and not a builder so the way I do things is of course going to be a bit different. Costs are also different in different parts of the country and there are many details that we don't know. I'm just using generalities in saying that milling, staining, finishing, and installing 800 +/- feet of molding for $1200+/- is incredibly, incredibly cheap! Even assuming you didn't lose money on that specific part of the project, I have to imagine your leaving money on the table? Do your competitors who you mention are supplying lesser quality charging less? B/C if your supplying better quality you should be charging more.

Now as to the more technical questions.....a shaper can run moldings....though how practically is going to vary. I run small moldings all the time, the wider they go the trickier and less practical it is to run them. The advantage for me is that I have a very nice shaper so I can run moldings in one pass and have a finish that needs almost no further sanding. I don't own a small molder so can't speak from experience, however I've questioned a lot of guys in the business and my understanding is most larger profiles in hardwoods require multiple passes and sanding. They're still supposed to be quite handy to have around the shop. You just don't want to try to supply thousands of feet of molding with one. Which is why when I need a large amount of stock that's not easily run on my shaper, or available off-the-shelf, I have a local shop with a molder run it for me. Even paying them to do it I come out ahead as it would cost me much more to do it in house;)

good luck,
JeffD

[Bud Millis]

Grizzly takes a lot of knocks. However, I have been in numerous production shops and and have seen a lot of Grizzly machinery in use. As far as the dust collector, I would go with the Oneida Super Dust Gorilla 3-5 hp unit.