2nd Turned vase

[Blair Swing]

Here, nearing completion, is my second turned vase. Bloodwood, walnut and maple, with a few layers of veneer sanded to 600.

Looking for any suggestions on what finish to apply. It still has the baseplate on one end.

The piece measures about 11 1/2" tall by 6" round and has about 405 pieces. Probably around 120 hours but I don't count right now.

Let me know what you think. Also, I did this for a friend and need to put a price on it. Any thoughts on the range would be appreciated. 273357273356273358

[Brian Kent]

It is magnificent. I would start at "priceless" and work backwards.

[Doug Herzberg]

First of all, I'm calling "BS" on the "second turned vase," unless by that you mean I've been doing segmented work all my life and I grew up at my father's knee watching him turn fantastic pieces for a living, and it just occurred to me to do something in the shape of a "vase." This is a fabulous vase and if it is really your second effort, my hat is off to you.

I'd go with a gloss wop.

Third, I recognize that lathe. It's like the one my father bought for me to turn spindles. I know what a challenge it is to work with. Did you turn the vase on it, or do you just keep it around for sanding and buffing?

Prices are very regional, but I'd say it's worth a lot.

[Blair Swing]

273370273371By vase, I mean this is my 2nd "closed vessel" where I build from both ends and mate in the middle. This one is about .35" thick. I guess I have been doing segmented work since my first ever turning back in 8th grade, course I didn't call it that back in 1975 I wouldn't have known to call it that. (See attached lamp). I then made several more in high school, learning quickly, but then took about a 25 year hiatus until my dad gave me the lathe you see in the picture back. All of my work has been turned on that lathe, and yes it can be a challenge, although after I put the segmented belt on it the vibration stopped, and made life easier.

The first segmented vase I did took third place at the Texas State Fair this year, but if you look at my work, you can see the improvement.

Thanks for the comments.

[Doug Herzberg]

Blair, it was meant as a complement. Fabulous.

[Blair Swing]

Doug, thanks, I took it as a complement, after all BS is my name... :-). Also, I will add that between the first and second vases, I have also added a new table saw (well new is a relative term since it is a 1946 Craftsman tilting table saw) and a thickness planer, and a digital angle gauge. While I want a new lathe someday, I felt it was more important to improve the tools making the product I am putting on it. As in computers, so it is in woodworking "garbage in garbage out" Now I just hope I don't screw it up with the finish! Will post after I get done.

[Mike Cruz]

Blair, segmented turnings are a funny bird. Most don't appreciate what goes into them...the math, the time, the planning, the skill. This one is beautiful. But pricing is difficult because of my first statement. Going by the number of hours in, I'd think you are low balling yourself at $2000, but should be asking about $3500. But, again, most don't understand what is involved in a segmented piece. If this piece weren't segmented, I would say it is maybe in the $400-600 range. The simple difference in price is time in. But try to tell that to a customer...

[Michelle Rich]

I've been a segmented woodturner for 30 yrs..the market is sketchy for pieces like this. Segmented was a hard sell for me. Your location is important. The venue you put it in & so many other factors. Few people can command a price that covers the time for these. If I may be bold, the bottom part of the vase is quite nice, but the neck IMHO does not go with the rest. I think the segments are too large/too many colors and do not add to the blanket design. that that is my opinion..it ain't gospel. I also cannot tell how your base will turn out. will it follow the curve, or will it "flat foot" ?? Your gluing/cutting of segments looks good, from the pictures you provided. The only thing you can do is price it & put it out there. If people look at it and decline to buy, then you'll know. Good luck in your endeavors

[Pete Copeland]

Well I've not been at it for 30 years (more like 3) but most of my pieces these days are segmented. I agree with Michelle. The form is good, the joints are tight, but my feeling is this design would have been improved if it had gone through a Less-Is-More filter before the wood went thru the table saw.

The feature ring is fantastic but it would be better if the field was more uniform (can't tell if there are two kinds of wood or just two very different grain patterns). The top is also busier than I would like it. The neck has stripes and the rim has a different pattern of stripes. Pick one (I'd pick the neck). With so much competition for attention in this piece, I think the viewer doesn't get the best chance possible to appreciate the work.

I know how much work goes into this and I know it's not easy to see in your mind what it will look like so please accept my comments in the spirit of camaraderie.

Finally, a general comment, directed in no particular direction. When people ask me how many pieces my segmented works contain, I either say, "I don't know" (even though I do) or, "One". It's not a matter of how many pieces but how well they work together.

[Brian Kent]

One thing I have noticed in Sawmill Creek is that unless we specifically ask for comments, we get a pat on the back - unless we are working at a very advanced level. Then people give advanced critique.

So congratulations on what you are doing. This is a beautiful work! (I have no idea how to offer critique on a piece like this one!)

[Mike Cruz]

One thing I have noticed in Sawmill Creek is that unless we specifically ask for comments, we get a pat on the back. Brian, unfortunately, even when you DO ask for critique, that is all you'll get. Not sure if it is because people don't feel qualified to give critique, or because everyone loves everything, or people are afraid of hurting others' feelings. But attaboys don't make you better. They just reinforce that what you did was good...even if it wasn't. Yeah, it might have been good for the level that a particular turner is at, but it doesn't help him/her grow. I am, by no means, a superb turner. But I am also no longer a beginner. I do notice rookie form mistakes, tool marks, sanding marks, and the like. I will point them out when I see them. Why? If we pretend they aren't there, the turner thinks we didn't see them. And their next piece will have them, and the piece after that. I'm sure there is a crowd of eye rollers that think that I am too critical of pieces. Often someone posts pics of a turning, they ask for critique, they get 15 "Love it", "beautiful", and "good job" replies...and then there's me. I'm not saying that those people aren't being honest, but without saying "what" you like about it, and "what" caught your eye, and "why" is it is beautiful, etc, etc, it is a simple "pat on the back" as you said.

[Mike Goetzke]

Blair - I'm a new turner without enough experience to critique your vase but with this being your second attempt you are a natural! I was wondering if you have any pictures of the segmenting process or at lease the blank you started with.

Thanks,

Mike

[Grant Wilkinson]

Blair: I would be grateful if you posted the price you get for it, after it sells. I know it's not my business but, since you asked for prices, I'm curious. I know for certain that in my market, it would not fetch thousands. I'm not saying that it's not worth that, but it would not sell for that.

[Blair Swing]

I appreciate honest feedback, and it doesn't hurt my feelings, it is how we grow. This currently is a hobby for me, that if I can develop my skill level, might hasten my retirement, but with a freshman in college i am probably doomed to work at least 4, no wait dad 5, or so more years. For now I am more focused on quality. The hours I spend are approximate, and I don't punch a clock, I look at each of my pieces almost as prototypes and work on the process more for now. I have to clean up my garage every day to get the cars back in and long for the day I do have my own shop.

My target price when I started for this piece was between $1,000-$1,500 in my mind, depending on how it came out would land it on which level. This piece is for a friend that gave me my first ever art showing after I showed her only one piece, so I am not going to charge her retail anyway. But as all of you know. You do grow attached to the little guys as you build them and fresh. Unbiased verbiage helps keep you balanced and not get to big a head.

Keep the comments coming, I enjoy the input.

[Robert McGowen]

I sell almost everything I make, mostly segmented stuff. The top end price is the gallery price, but you will probably only end up with 50%-70% of the actual sales price. If you sell it direct, it might be another price. So if I was asking about a price, I would be looking at the amount that would actually end up in my pocket. If you are not an established, well known artist, I personally would think you would end up with $250-$300 for it.

The vase itself looks very well done as far as the segmentation itself. The top two rings distract from the rest of the vase though, and to me, don't look like they belong on the vase. I personally would have used the same wood as is in the body of the vase for the top two rings.

Any way you could post a photo of the state fair vase? :)

[Blair Swing]

273476Here is the state fair winner, the start of this string is its big brother. When I posted last time, people felt it was too stubby and colors didn't work together. This one only has three woods and the wood comes from the same boards. Light and end grain on some pieces may be making the appearance of different woods. I don't always swim with the current and while I have listened to the comments from the turners that my shape isn't "traditional" It doesn't bother me yet, as the majority of the comment from non-turners have been positive. As I develop my own style, being slightly different isn't necessarily a bad thing, as long as I can find the niche that appreciates the difference. (If I have trouble selling later then I may be forced to switch).

[Bill Bulloch]

120 hours? You must be counting time waiting for the glue to dry. To get a more realistic idea what to charge for the pieces, I'd suggest just counting production time, like: Three hours for cutting and gluing the indian blanket design, six hours for cutting and gluing the eight other rings and two hours for turning and what ever time it take for the sanding and finishing. That would put it in the 12 to 14 hour range and at say $20 an hours time plus material would demand a $260 -- $300 asking price. I would only be lucky to get half that in the market I am in.

You have done an excellent job on the joinery and Indian Blanket design. I'll have to agree with the others, thou, that the top feature does not compliment the Indian Blanket Design very well, it is just too busy. Also, my personal opion is that the vase would present itself better it the segments were shorter -- say, in place of the 4 tall rings you had made 8 shourter ones.

[John Keeton]

...I don't always swim with the current and while I have listened to the comments from the turners that my shape isn't "traditional" It doesn't bother me yet, as the majority of the comment from non-turners have been positive. As I develop my own style, being slightly different isn't necessarily a bad thing, as long as I can find the niche that appreciates the difference. (If I have trouble selling later then I may be forced to switch).Blair, I don't do segmented work, so I won't comment on that aspect of your piece. And, without commenting on your form, I will offer this - IMO "form" transcends everything.

It seems some segmenters spend a lot of time and effort that results in amazingly intricate designs, but in the end, the form suffers. While non-turners may not have the knowledge to say why a particular form is not appealing, most folks will be drawn more to a piece that adheres to what might be referred to as "traditional" or "classical" form. It really isn't that there are contemporary rules about form that change as folks develop new styles. It is more that nature has certain integral design proportions that the human eye perceives as proportionally correct and pleasing. Much of that is embodied in the principles discovered and expounded on by Fibonacci. If one incorporates those design elements/proportions into a form, the odds are much more in favor of the piece being appreciated by a wider audience. If that piece then has excellent segmentation, all the better!

If you look at the work of those artists that have developed a successful style or niche, most all have incorporated those design elements into their work. There are no new forms - all have been done for centuries. The manner in which one uses those forms with various embellishments, flair, color, and combinations are what define the artist.

In the end, if you decide to sell your work, I think you will find that those folks that have the money and inclination to pay larger prices for a piece of art, do have an appreciation for what is considered "good form." Some folks may not have that appreciation, but I would think far fewer of those folks will have the money and inclination to pay a higher price.

Just some rambling thoughts from another woodturner.

[Mike Cruz]

Bill, not knowing Blair's work ethic, speed, knowledge of segmenting, metal capacity, or life experiences, I cannot speak FOR him. But saying he doesn't have 120 hours into it is like the guy that says pens take 15-20 minutes rolling his eyes at the guy that says pens take almost an hour. You might be able to do segmented turnings like this in 12-14 hours, but I guarantee you that I could not. Would it take me 120 hours, well, maybe not. But I am not him.

When explaining to a fellow turner that I want $30 per hour for my time on a piece ($15 per hour for me, and $15 per hour for my company), the fellow turner scoffed and said that most of the turners he knows ask $60 per hour. I said, yeah, but it takes me twice as long. In the long run, we'll be asking the same amount.

As I said before, I don't think the public appreciates segmented turnings and what goes into them. And I don't believe that you get the return for the money on them, either (on your time). My estimation of what the vessel would be worth was based on his time...not what I think he could actually get based on form, quality, and the correct market.

I could be all wet, too... Maybe his 120 assessment included drying time, which, as we all know, you can't/don't count. But it didn't sound like it to me.

Question for you segmenting guys: Do you count the time that it took you to figure out the design, layout, angles, pieces, and so forth into your "time"?

Remember, too, Bill, that this is only Blair's second segmented vase. So, his processing to figure all the parts out might have taken a LOT longer than someone that has a computer program or some sort of "system" (maybe from doing so many) for figuring out the entire process...

[Duane Meadows]

That is a very good point, Mike. Just because it takes me 3 times as long to make something, doesn't mean it's worth 3 times as much. If it did, I guess I am still working too fast!

[Doug Herzberg]

Brian, unfortunately, even when you DO ask for critique, that is all you'll get. Not sure if it is because people don't feel qualified to give critique, or because everyone loves everything, or people are afraid of hurting others' feelings. But attaboys don't make you better. They just reinforce that what you did was good...even if it wasn't. Yeah, it might have been good for the level that a particular turner is at, but it doesn't help him/her grow. I am, by no means, a superb turner. But I am also no longer a beginner. I do notice rookie form mistakes, tool marks, sanding marks, and the like. I will point them out when I see them. Why? If we pretend they aren't there, the turner thinks we didn't see them. And their next piece will have them, and the piece after that. I'm sure there is a crowd of eye rollers that think that I am too critical of pieces. Often someone posts pics of a turning, they ask for critique, they get 15 "Love it", "beautiful", and "good job" replies...and then there's me. I'm not saying that those people aren't being honest, but without saying "what" you like about it, and "what" caught your eye, and "why" is it is beautiful, etc, etc, it is a simple "pat on the back" as you said.

Mike, it's probably a subject for another thread. It's probably already been covered - I didn't check - but I appreciate your attitude. I want to learn and improve and suggestions from others who are further down the road are one way. Criticism can be done kindly and encouragement doesn't have to include false praise.

[Mike Cruz]

Doug, I've brought this point up numerous times. I think there actually was a tread on it. Bottom line, it is like herding cats, like telling a woman she's beautiful WITHOUT make up, like getting a perfect finish with a year old can of Tung Oil... it is a lost cause. But I appreciate that you appreciate it. ;)

[Robert McGowen]

273476Here is the state fair winner)

To get back on topic, :) , I can see where this vase would be viewed as a much better vase. The indian blanket design is much taller proportionally, which helps it to fit in with the much larger segments above and below it. Also, the top 2 rings have a lot fewer segments and appear less busy and over-powering. I personally think that the base is too wide, but that is just me. Like I said though, IMHO this is a MUCH better vase than it's "brother." Thanks for posting it.

[Bill Bulloch]

That is a very good point, Mike. Just because it takes me 3 times as long to make something, doesn't mean it's worth 3 times as much. If it did, I guess I am still working too fast!

That reminds me of a time 45 years ago when I was a bartender at a Country Club. I got a bad rash on my hands and was unable to tend bar with it, so the club gave me a job posting debits and credits to members accounts with a IBM bookkeeping machine. I handled the accounts for members whose names started with A thru L, and the other Bookkeeper, who had been there for years, handled members M thru Z. It was a part time job and we came in at about 6 PM. He would post his accounts and balance out his machine in about two hours. I could get my accounts posted in two hours, but could never get my machine to balance out on the first try, so I would have to search the accounts looking for my errors and sometimes there were more than one. It might have taken me two or three hours just to find the errors. Since we got paid by the hour, incompetent me, made twice as much as the competent bookkeeper. I brought it up to the Club Manager. He just said, "We all have to learn", and went on paying me.

[Blair Swing]

Interesting banter, and appreciate all the life lessons! I would add that the 120 hours I spoke of included making 22 of the design band segments, and I have used 6 now, so have enough for at least two more urns, shape yet to be determined (but you all are helping my mind already start to plan...). Also, when cutting one section, I screwed up the entire middle band and had to rebuild a complete section, as I wasn't going to put the 1/16" section in the middle of the band.... Also, down here in Texas in the summer, it gets to be over 110 in my garage, and so maybe it just seemed like many more hours as I worked on the design band and sweltered in the summer heat. Did I also mention I have a full time job, and work typically 10-12 hour days at times, and before I started working here a mere 24 years ago, the Army had me for 3 years 24 hours a day, so I view time different than a lot of people, and if I worked for an hourly wage, I would have started crying long ago... I did cut out all bands and get them glued together over a three day period, once I built the design band and glued it together. What most turners don't immediately comprehend, (except segment workers), is that you need to make that design band first, and build everything else up and down to it. I also am not dependent on selling anything right now, and have focused mostly on my quality techniques, and in the words of my book mentors Ray Allan and Malcom Tibbets, "if it don't fit when dry, it won't fit after you glue it". 12 segments, with (24) 15 degree cuts and if you are off only 0.1 degree per cut, means that the last segment will be 2.4 degrees off from closing, and I guarantee that you will see that glue line. I have three glue lines, out of the 100's in this strings vessel that I am not happy with, and two are on the inside that you would be hard pressed to see (but I know they are there) and one that is about 1/16" on the outside. Tedious, yes, obsessive compulsive, probably borderline..., patient without a doubt. I am going for near museum quality (at least on technique) and I am my toughest critic (well I take that back, my wife is my toughest critic as she hates wood objects - however she did like my fair entry so I am gaining ground!). I also know art is very subjective, and if I am showing this in a gallery in Santa Fe, or Aspen the price that it would garner is much more than here in Texas, or Canada, or where ever else, Location, Location Location.... At 51 years young, I am working on establishing my abilities, and slowly gaining recognition (or not). One final word on hours in a piece, I just enjoy the process so much, that I can lose all track of time, and as it is purely a hobby for me, it is still very fun, and is an escape from "Work". If I were to price a piece based on the hours it took to build it, then it would seem like "Work" and that would take a lot of the pure enjoyment that creating something unique gives me, and the pleasure of seeing others enjoy it.

[Blair Swing]

274006274005Here are vases #1 & #2. WOP finish on #2 and just a clear salad bowl finish in #1. Thanks for all the previous comments and now that they are together any preferences to one over the other, (and why) are welcome!

[Mike Cruz]

Blair, any chance you can rotate the pics? You'd probably have to rotate them on your computer (right click, then chose rotate clockwise), then upload them... Hard to really get a good look like this.

[ron david]

Bill, not knowing Blair's work ethic, speed, knowledge of segmenting, metal capacity, or life experiences, I cannot speak FOR him. But saying he doesn't have 120 hours into it is like the guy that says pens take 15-20 minutes rolling his eyes at the guy that says pens take almost an hour. You might be able to do segmented turnings like this in 12-14 hours, but I guarantee you that I could not. Would it take me 120 hours, well, maybe not. But I am not him.

When explaining to a fellow turner that I want $30 per hour for my time on a piece ($15 per hour for me, and $15 per hour for my company), the fellow turner scoffed and said that most of the turners he knows ask $60 per hour. I said, yeah, but it takes me twice as long. In the long run, we'll be asking the same amount.

As I said before, I don't think the public appreciates segmented turnings and what goes into them. And I don't believe that you get the return for the money on them, either (on your time). My estimation of what the vessel would be worth was based on his time...not what I think he could actually get based on form, quality, and the correct market.

I could be all wet, too... Maybe his 120 assessment included drying time, which, as we all know, you can't/don't count. But it didn't sound like it to me.

Question for you segmenting guys: Do you count the time that it took you to figure out the design, layout, angles, pieces, and so forth into your "time"?

Remember, too, Bill, that this is only Blair's second segmented vase. So, his processing to figure all the parts out might have taken a LOT longer than someone that has a computer program or some sort of "system" (maybe from doing so many) for figuring out the entire process...
time is just time and the time to make it should be the time it all takes. the time that a novice takes to do something will not be the same as someone who is proficient at it.
lets say that you go to work tomorrow and theoretically your boss asks you to make something; it takes you 3 hours thinking about it and 5 hours to physically do it. you have your 8 hours for the day in, but the boss says you only have 5 hours in making it so that is all that I can pay you. what are you going to tell him?
ron

[ron david]

Here, nearing completion, is my second turned vase. Bloodwood, walnut and maple, with a few layers of veneer sanded to 600.

Looking for any suggestions on what finish to apply. It still has the baseplate on one end.

The piece measures about 11 1/2" tall by 6" round and has about 405 pieces. Probably around 120 hours but I don't count right now.

Let me know what you think. Also, I did this for a friend and need to put a price on it. Any thoughts on the range would be appreciated. 273357273356273358

here is where it gets complicated; how good of a friend? what is your friendship worth. did he or you set any parameters on design or price before you undertook this project? What makes you sure that he is even going to like it other than him or her being polite?. everyone thinks that their work is the greatest thing on earth to themselves , but when you ask the question on an open forum you have to be ready for whatever comes your way and some are going to be honest replies. you are to be commended
on the ability to put it together for only your second segmented piece, but there are many turners who are quite proficient who don't do any segmented work, so not knowing your ability at that is a question. adding copious amounts of contrast to an object does not necs. add to the quality of it. the centre decoration only would have made it much more subtle. where do you want the attention to focus on your piece. you want it to look as one whole piece, but where are your eyes pulling towards.
would your friend ever buy this type of thing from anyone else, you will have to ask yourself or are you imposing it on them. (I am not implying anything here, but just asking questions) If he wasn't your friend do you think that he would want it and what do you think that they may value it at. if you are established then everyone knows what your values are as your prices are out there and est but as a novice they are not and is your friend going to be in for a surprise which they might not be ready for. this should have been established at the start as any commission is.
"simple is hard, elaborate is easy " C.F.A. Voysey, British Arts and Craft Movement
ron

[Mike Cruz]

I'm going to tell him I don't work for free. If he wants to pay me for only the hours I spend building the project then he either needs to do the "thinking" for himself, or hire someone to do the thinking. One cannot do the "do" part without the "prep" part.

Now, if it took me 3 hours to think about the project and 5 hours to do the project, and it would take the other guy I work with 1 1/2 hours to think about it and 2 1/2 hours to do the project, I should NOT complain one bit when I see that guy's paycheck at about twice mine! Profits are profits. If the boss can get twice as much product out of one guy as the next (assuming the same quality of workmanship and overall product), the worker that GETS-R-DONE quicker deserves more per hour (or the same amount per project...just takes less time to do it). This is why a freshly hired person and someone that has been doing the same job for 5 years may/should have a different pay scale. The 5 year vet ought to be quite fluent and proficient at his job. Something the newbie is not...yet. As he becomes more so, he gets paid more per hour because he makes his boss more money per day.

[Blair Swing]

Ok, Try them now - my trouble is I do a lot of loading with my Iphone, and hard to manipulate the files there.

[Mike Cruz]

Much better, Blair...thanks.

I don't have the eye for these things as some do. You know, the ones that have called this ring distracting, or that wood unnecessary. All I can say is that the one on the right is a bit bottom heavy. In my opinion, it needed to come in a fair amount. Maybe it is just my eye... As for the designs and patterns. I think they look just fine. But I'm not a segmenter...

[Gus Dundon]

Beautiful piece of work. I am very impressed. A fantastic turned wood with inspiring details!

[Blair Swing]

Well thanks to all the comments, and I will take them to heart, I just met with my customer and friend and we settled on the price, and she was very pleased with the vase, for those that are interested enough to do the research, i will say that the sales price landed between 85-86% of what I need for a brand new Nova 55175 DVR XP lathe. (Currently on sale) Just have to complete another small commissioned bowl for another friend for the last 15% and i will get to play with the new toy! Will post pictures when I get it.

[Mike Cruz]

Well, good for you, Blair! Glad you got what you deserved for it.