First-Time Moritsing Dilemma

[Marty Tippin]

Hi all - my first post to the group but have been lurking for quite a while.

Getting ready to start my first "semi-advanced" project - Phil Lowe's "Basic Workbench with Built-In Storage" (http://www.finewoodworking.com/item/109209/build-a-basic-workbench-with-built-in-storage) - and am facing a dilemma regarding the mortise & tenon joinery on that project.

I'm trying to decide on the "best" method to use -- at this point in my limited woodworking career, I've never done M&T joinery, so there seem to be a hundred possible ways to proceed, all of which look pretty much the same to someone with my limited experience.

I don't have a mortising tool, but I do have a plunge router and a drill press. So I could buy a mortising attachment for the drill press, but I have a feeling I won't get the kind of accuracy I really need with a cheap attachment. I don't really want to buy a dedicated machine, as I don't think I'll be cutting mortises that often. If I were to cut the mortises with a router, I'd then be left either trying to chisel out the rounded corners of the mortise or rounding off the corners of the square-cut tenons, both of which seem like an error-prone hassle.

Other options I've considered are using loose tenons and routing a mortise in both sides of the joint, but the prospect of custom-milling the loose tenons isn't appealing.

And of course, the Festool Domino is an option - I've found a used Domino 500 for sale locally at a reasonable price, but it's still ridiculously expensive for an occasional-use tool. And I'm not sure the domino tenons are big enough or that the joint will be strong enough for a workbench that's likely to get some serious abuse.

At the moment, I'm leaning toward the Domino simply because it seems like the simplest way to go. But maybe I should take the time to learn to do "traditional" M&T joinery first. Either way, I want this project to be done right, as I plan to use the workbench for quite a long time.

Comments? Suggestions? Warnings?

[Stephen Cherry]

I don't have a mortising tool, but I do have a plunge router and a drill press.

Nope- you have two mortising tools. Do you have chisels? If so, you have another!

I would recomend that you read this article, then give it a try. The author very generously tells everything that you need to know to cut this joint by hand, with a little help.

http://www.finewoodworking.com/woodworking-plans/article/making-the-chippendale-chair.aspx

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Marty,

Do you have a method to sharpen chisels really sharp?

If it was me, without a dedicated mortiser, I'd lay them out on the material, drill them with your drill press....square and clean them up with sharp chisels.

[Rick Cabot]

Marty
I would stay away from the domino joint for a work bench. "Traditional" M/T joinery would be your best bet for strength and longevity. You really should learn and practice with a mallet and chisel as these are one of the backbones for all woodworkers. However, a table saw and router are reasonable options. There are a number of jig designs available on line that can be constructed to assist with your project. FYI you can check out the following video that demonstrates mortise construction with a router (http://www.finewoodworking.com/how-to/video/mortising-with-a-plunge-router.aspx). Good luck with your project and most importantly be safe and enjoy.
Rick

[David Eisenhauer]

Without getting into anything else, in general, loose tenon joinery is a fairly easy way to get into M&T joinery. Route all of the mortices, use a table saw/bandsaw/handsaw/etc to cut some rectangular "slats" (OK, "fat" slats) and cut the long slat to individual lengths as needed. Rounding the edges of the "slats" can be done by router table/rasp-file/sander/etc. The round over need not be dead-solid perfect as the fit up between the mortice side wall and the tenon cheek is the critical fit (in other words, getting the thickness of the tenon just right). This also eliminates the math required to make sure you cut the pieces to be joined to the correct length that will account for the tenon extension. I believe tests have shown this method to hold as well (or near enough) as standard M&T. Just food for thought as you say you are moving into "semi-advanced" projects because you will encounter this M&T issue more and more as you move along. The loose tenon method is a good entry-level method that does not require additional tool purchase (assuming you own a router and some type of saw) and allows you to concentrate on your methodology of accurate mortice location because the tenons are easy to make - all things considered. In any case, "Don't Never Stop".

[Dave Richards]

You picked a nice solid bench. I wouldn't agonize too much over how you'll cut the mortises and tenons. You've got some adequate tools at your disposal. You may find that some of them will need more handwork than others so you'll probably have to use a combination of tools. Those tenons in the rails are 3/8 in. thick and 1-1/4" long so keep that in mind.

[Dave Zellers]

Marty,

Do you have a method to sharpen chisels really sharp?

If it was me, without a dedicated mortiser, I'd lay them out on the material, drill them with your drill press....square and clean them up with sharp chisels.
DITTO! Built my first exterior door that way decades ago with no mortise experience and it came out great.

[Art Mann]

I have a hollow chisel mortising machine and I have a router jig that makes it fairly easy to cut mortises. Even so, if I were you, I would look into buying the used Festool Domino if you can get it at a reasonable price. If you are building that nice bench, then I am guessing you are going to be using a lot of M&T joints in the future - enough so it won't just be regarded as an "occasional use" tool. I am not a Festool fan and I don't own any Festool products but I think this particular tool would be a good investment in the long run.

[Jim Matthews]

If you're uncomfortable making through mortises, or learning to make them will delay getting to a useful bench -
consider making half lap joints in place of the mortise and tenon joints.

That way, you can see what you're doing and use your existing tools to best effect.

The unspoken requirement for mortise and tenon joinery is square stock, with opposite faces parallel.
If you can't get lumber square and parallel on four sides, a good M&T joint will be difficult.

FWIW, I wouldn't make the legs as Phil Lowe has shown, I would laminate them.
Using 1" thick stock you can build up legs and stretchers, leaving "voids" where the mortises would be cut.

Tenons are made by leaving the center portion of a stretcher "long".

While the trestle support of a bench is as good a place as any to learn M&T joinery, your first attempts will not be your best.
If you intend to use this bench for an extended period, simpler joinery methods are worth consideration.

Paul Miller's clever V8 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bj218m8QXmk) wedge powered workbench is built this way, from plywood sections laminated together in this fashion.

[Keith Hankins]

Welcome to the fold and the long road to building the shop tools. I've been down the road for 38+ years and it will take time. Remember power tools are great, but you can do it all with hand tools just not as fast. I now have a nice mortising machine, but have done it many ways. You could get a tenon saw and chisel and cut them by hand. Just takes a little practice. you mention a router and with that I'd take a shot at loose M&T. I've done a lot of that. You can make a jig to do it. If you google it, you will find videos and plans. I did a quick search on youtube and saw lots of hits. It will only take time. and a little practice. I was using that method right up to when I bought my mortising machine.

[Dave Richards]

FWIW, I wouldn't make the legs as Phil Lowe has shown, I would laminate them.
Using 1" thick stock you can build up legs and stretchers, leaving "voids" where the mortises would be cut.

That'll be a ton of work for this bench since the mortises aren't centered on the legs (They're 3/8 in. in from one side) and there would still be mortises to cut on the adjacent face.

[John Sanford]

I don't have a mortising tool, but I do have a plunge router and a drill press. So I could buy a mortising attachment for the drill press, but I have a feeling I won't get the kind of accuracy I really need with a cheap attachment.
Actually, you can be quite accurate with a mortising attachment. I built two plant stands that had 40 1/4" mortises on 1/2" stock, all dead on. That was without a decent fence on my DP. So, don't discount this option.


At the moment, I'm leaning toward the Domino simply because it seems like the simplest way to go. But maybe I should take the time to learn to do "traditional" M&T joinery first. Either way, I want this project to be done right, as I plan to use the workbench for quite a long time.

Comments? Suggestions? Warnings?Simplest way to go is with a mallet and chisel. It's also the most work, but it will be the most educational. Next would be to drill out the bulk on the DP, then cleanup with M&C. Third is use a route in place of DP, then either cleanup with M&C or round the tenons.

[John TenEyck]

The folks here telling you to chop those big mortises by hand must really hate you. God gave man the intelligence to invent machines for his benefit - and I use them whenever possible. Loose tenons are the easiest approach for all the reasons an earlier poster cited. You don't need anything special to cut them either other than a good up spiral bit for your router. You can use an edge guide on your router or make a simple wood jig with a window for your router collet to follow. The tenons are easy to make from scrap if you have a planer, but not very hard to make with just a table saw. The edges are easy to round over with a router bit, or just chamfer them. The strength of the joint comes from the glued faces of the mortice and tenon, not the ends. The faces of the mortises you cut with a router will be far smoother, straighter, and more precise than nearly any other process. Same for the loose tenons.

John

[Jim Matthews]

Half laps (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=esy25rsWtl4) are only half the work.

I'm suggesting that a serviceable mortise and tenon can be built with a laminated technique.
If you wanted to vary the placement of the mortise relative to one face, a thinner laminate could applied
to generate the desired reveal. Structurally, it amounts to no difference.

I'll say it again, if this is the first bench build, it's not so elementary as it may appear.

[Stephen Cherry]

The folks here telling you to chop those big mortises by hand must really hate you.

Not really. If you drill it out with a drill press, and finish it with a sharp chisel, it really is not too bad. The article I posted gives extensive instructions on how to do this without wearing yourself out. And the first time anybody sharpens a chisel to the point that it can shave arm hair and then uses it to cut wood is a worthwhile experience.

Also, I don't want to rekindle the loose end glue debate for mortise and tenons, because I do agree that in the majority of uses it is OK, BUT, in a workbench that may see some hard use, I would rather have the ends tight in the mortises, and preferably wedged.

[Marty Tippin]

Thanks for all the thoughtful comments. There's definitely a range of opinions!

Maybe the best place for me to start would be to make some practice M&T joints in scrap stock using a few different methods and see which one works for me. I'm inclined to start with the router and square up the corners with a chisel and see how that goes. I'll need to buy a set of chisels and a mallet though - those have been on my want list for a while but haven't made it to the top as I haven't really needed them yet.

And I've been unable to get a response from the local guy selling the Domino, so it may have been sold already, leaving me with the tools I have on hand which, as many have pointed out, are more than adequate for the task at hand.

[Dave Richards]

I like the idea of using the router for the mortises. You can make a jig like this to guide the router and set the location on the legs.
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7396/10037305306_116ebb6a97_n.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/8294157@N08/10037305306/)


If you wanted to use loose tenons you could use this jig on both parts to cut matching mortises.

If you need help with making the jig fit the legs (and rails) I can help you out with the dimensions.

[Greg Hines, MD]

If you search on my profile you will see my router mortising jig, which is a platform that replaces the base of the router, with a pair of fences to control side to side motion, then you just have to decide how long and how deep. If you cut your tenons slightly shorter than your mortises, you don't even have to round them over.

Likewise with a sharp forstner bit and a chisel, you can do the same job rather quickly.

Doc

[Joe Hillmann]

Here is a very informative video (the first one) http://www.artisaninquiry.org/tag/roy-underhill/

There is another very similar one done by Roy Underhill, he describes it as his ant farm mortis method. I did a very quick search and couldn't find it but it is worth looking for and watching.

[Marty Tippin]

If you search on my profile you will see my router mortising jig

I tried to search but couldn't find the mortising jig you referenced. But maybe I'm not searching correctly... ;-)

[Dave Anthony]

I like loose M&T, and cut the mortise using a router with a spiral upcut bit, an edge guide, and a homemade jig. This results in a mortise with clean smooth sides. If you have a planer you can make the tennon stock a very good fit. I use a roundover bit to shape the edges of the tennon stock. This is the jig I use:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?206525-Mortise-Jig&highlight= (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?206525-Mortise-Jig&highlight=)

A few mortises on my latest project:

273168273169

The other nice thing about this method is the ease of layout - you simply mark the center of the mortise.

[John TenEyck]

My horizontal router mortiser is simple to build, costs about $50 and 8 or 10 hours, and will make nearly any edge or end type mortise, very fast, and very accurately. It also will make integral tenons, dowel holes, sliding dovetails, and probably more. Here's a link to pictures and a SketchUp model.

https://sites.google.com/site/jteneyckwoodworker/current-projects/horizontal-router-mortiser

John

[Kent A Bathurst]

Router with a template like Dave shows, or something similar. Loose tenons. Make your own. As mentioned, the ends mating perfectly aren't critical, and getting a radius to match the radius of the mortise matters not - chamfer them to fit.

Don't start drinking the Green Kool-Aid at your young age [in ww terms]. Success in learning woodworking skills lieth not along the path of the biggest possible expense for snazzy one-trick-pony tools, Grasshopper.

Not saying don't ever buy them - just saying don't fall into the trap of thinking "Ah-HA! If I get that tool right there, everything will come out fine." BTDT, and learned better.

[Dave Richards]

Good on you, Kent. ;)

Marty, since you have my SketchUp model of the bench, you can use it to design a perfectly fitted template for the mortises. Or, as I offered, I can do it for you.

[John TenEyck]

No offense, but you can spend an hour or two designing and fabricating a template that makes one size mortise, or you can spend 8 or 10 hours and build my horizontal router mortiser which will make nearly any size mortise you would ever want in nearly any size stock. Just sayin'.

It will be the best $50 you ever spend on woodworking.

John

[Kent A Bathurst]

Good on you, Kent. ;)



Yeah, Dave - I was convinced I could buy my way into quality skills. The sell-off at 50% of new on those tools cost me under $ one large, so I guess I got squared away on the cheap, all things considered.

But then - the obverse of that same coin - the first lousy LN block plane, learned how to use it and sharpen it and..............led to you-don't wanna-know.

Money is simply the marker used to move woodworking tools around from place-to-place. Kind of like matter: WW tools are neither created nor destroyed, they just move to the next person in line.

[Tony Leonard]

I hate to jump in to this since there are so many options and opinions. The first m&t joints I did were with the router. I used a good carbide upcut spiral and a jig/fence and got very good results for a rookie. 1 1/4" is pretty deep, but take multiple passes. Make sure your bit will cut as deep as you need and your router will plunge that deep (all works together). There have been several articles in FWW ont he topic and there are probably some YouTube videos. And don't forget that rounding the tenon corners with a rasp or file is an easy option too. Might be easier than squaring all of those tenons! Anyway, good luck with your bench. I enjoyed watching Phil's series on the bench build. Funny - I took two classes there and he was VERY picky about people using HIS bench - like DON'T! Can't blame him.

Tony

[John Zay]

This is like the chicken and the egg. You will probably, eventually, use a lot of M&T joinery. However, I have had a lot of perfectly good workbenches that used very simple joinery to construct. It sounds like you are in the early stages of woodworking. A simple workbench will suffice. Mortise and tenon joinery is not rocket science. But I would not take it on until I had certain basic tools and skills. Even for us "power tool" woodworkers, a good set of chisels (and I mean as good as you can afford), a good block plane (also as good as you can afford), and a good shoulder plane (good like I said before) are essential. You will use them a lot. Until you are comfortable putting a sharp edge on them, and know how to use them, the dream bench can wait. By the way, great chisels and planes can be found at yard sales and auctions. Do your homework. Have fun woodworking. Like golf, it's humbling.