Let me tell you about Epilog's Tech Support:

[Alan Reilly]

I posted here yesterday asking about a possible burned-out X axis motor on my 2007 model Epilog Helix that I bought USED about a year ago. I had also emailed Epilog's Tech Support, but had not received an answer yet and was just hoping to get a quick answer so I could relieve my fears of having to spend big bucks.

I can only say I am MORE than impressed.

Let me post his replys (edited some for brevity):
YESTERDAY EVENING:

A.J.
Yes, I would agree that this sounds like an X motor issue. We have recently rolled out an upgrade for that machine that puts a fan behind the X motor, to keep it cool. I believe that you would benefit from both a motor replacement and fan upgrade and can have them sent at no charge. Please verify the address below and if correct, I can have a new motor and fan upgrade sent out for Wednesday morning delivery and will email you with the instructions on replacing the motor and installing the fan upgrade.

Regards, Brian DeNileon
Epilog Corp. Technical Support Team

TODAY:

A.J.
I have processed the order and it will ship today, for arrival at your location tomorrow. I have included the instructions for replacing the motor and installing the upgrade as attachments to this email and you will receive another email this afternoon with tracking information. Please let me know if you need anything else.
Regards, Brian DeNileon
Epilog Corp. Technical Support Team

[Robert Silvers]

My Waverunner supercharger clutch broke, and they refused to fix it being it was past the warranty deadline (even though I only had about 55 hours on it) even though the internet was flooded with people saying it happens to all of them at 50 hours, and that they redesigned it to fix that problem.

And my wife's Subaru had a suspension part break, and the forums said that it was under-designed and happened all the time, and the dealer would not fix it under warranty.

That all being said, I would say that fixing a design defect is just normal, and neither impressive or unimpressive. What is impressive are companies that fix stuff that was your fault and not theirs. And while I appreciate those companies, I don't think they need to fix stuff that is not their fault.

[Alan Reilly]

R.S. :
Tell ya' what I think:
7 yrs out of warranty, not the original owner...I'm more than satisfied.

[Phil Thien]

That is impressive!!!

[Dave Sheldrake]

R.S. :
Tell ya' what I think:
7 yrs out of warranty, not the original owner...I'm more than satisfied.

I tend to agree, I've known Chinese vendors refuse warranty claims on tubes after 10 days let alone 7 years!

It's nice to hear about satisfied customers from whatever vendor and a great win Alan :)

cheers

Dave

[Robert Silvers]

10 days after the machine was new? Or after the warranty expired? What did they say to deny the claim?

[Shane Archie]

I wish the Australian Epilog support was as good. Made a phone call yesterday morning stating that my 4 month old machine had alignment issues. Told the guy it was pretty urgent that someone phones me back as it is for my business. Still waiting for them to call me back 2 days later. So tempted and IF I purchased another Epilog, that I'll fly to America and purchase directly there and get it shipped back.

Shane.

[Dave Sheldrake]

10 days after the machine was new? Or after the warranty expired? What did they say to deny the claim?


Mechanical damage is not covered by warranty when the housekeeper joint gave up and the end of the tube fell off. 47 days after manufacture date,1 day after delivery, 5 minutes after unpacking.

I've personally dealt with a chap who has 2 non working top of the range Chillers that were both new that hasn't been resolved after 3 months, a chap who's machine wouldn't connect to the PC and was offered no help to resolve the issue,

A client who had a machine arrive with non functioning red dot pointer who was told it would be $50 to ship a replacement under warranty

it's not always plain sailing

cheers

Dave

[John Bion]

This is just the thing that grabs all of us about western machine manufacturers - support when you need it - no if/but/perhaps. Congratulations to Epilog for selling themselves via customer care. There are other brands who could learn a great deal from this type of service. Time down is serious for any business - support is critical.
As a person who has imported direct from China - I am now watching these type of reports (and calculating Chinese downtime costs) with interest for my next purchase.
Regards, John

[AL Ursich]

And another Epilog Post that is the norm... Great Service...

AL

[Robert Silvers]

I would buy a higher end machine for serious business use for all sorts of reasons. Most of it mechanical, software, and meeting OSHA standards.

Part of the machine price is for it being a better machine. Part of it is margin. Part is for future service calls. Good service is not free - you can pay thousands in advance for it on the machine price, or you can take your chances and pay as things happen. I would like a US quality machine but at a lower price and with worse service.

Trotec charges 11 times as much for a rotary attachment as a Chinese one. So if it breaks and they fix it for free, vs the Chinese charging you for another one - was it really a win?

[Scott Shepherd]

Trotec charges 11 times as much for a rotary attachment as a Chinese one. So if it breaks and they fix it for free, vs the Chinese charging you for another one - was it really a win?

I think that's a selective argument. It could easily be argued the other way. If you buy one for 11 times less money and it ruins your customers products, was the savings worth it?

[Mike Null]

Or consider that it works when you have to have it and the Chinese product---who knows?

My Trotec has operated in a business environment for more than 6 years with one day of down time. I'll pay Trotec's price anytime. In fact, if I can manage a couple of transactions, I'll be buying a new 80 watt Trotec before long.

[Robert Silvers]

I think that's a selective argument. It could easily be argued the other way. If you buy one for 11 times less money and it ruins your customers products, was the savings worth it?

No. Ruining products is never ok.

What I would prefer is Trotec quality without the good support for $10,000 less.

[John Bion]

I think that's a selective argument. It could easily be argued the other way. If you buy one for 11 times less money and it ruins your customers products, was the savings worth it?

I am past with vainly trying to justify my Chinese purchase: how about telling a customer - "yes I will get your order to you tomorrow" ...... ooops - the machine has just thrown a wobbly and I can't do it any longer - or ....ooops, both chillers have stopped working and China is only happy to supply parts for one (and that after weeks of delay) - your customers surprisingly evaporate into thin air.
So in the real world (as aside from the theoretical one) the math goes (sort of) like this:
Chinese direct import + extra expense + contingency plans + down time + lost customers + frustration + business limps on.... VERSUS ... Western machine (or at minimum a Chinese machine locally supplied by reputable company) + satisfied customers - frustration - extra expense + business growing.
I have tried the former.
Kind Regards,
John

[Dan Hintz]

What I would prefer is Trotec quality without the good support for $10,000 less.

Quality costs money, plain and simple. To design a quality product takes R&D time/money. To manufacture a quality product requires QA time/money. You do not get Trotec-level quality on a China-level budget, it's as simple as that. A company could steal a quality design, removing the R&D portion of the money flow, but there still needs to be a high level of QA.

A Chinese rotary costs what, $250? A ULS rotary costs $1,250 (going from memory). I know, statistically speaking (read, barring unlucky lemons in one camp and lucky gems in the other), the ULS unit is going to outlast a Chinese unit (or have more power, or have higher angular resolution, or have less backlash, etc.). Therefore, I'm willing to spend more money to get that reliability/quality. If you're always doing shot glasses for bars with a CO2 unit, the Chinese unit is good enough from a quality standpoint, and should it die you're out $0.50 for a new glass. If you're doing high-res work on a fiber system on $100 items, the reduced risk of using a higher quality western unit would be my choice. Risk can only be mitigated, not removed, so it's a tradeoff between how much risk you're willing to take on versus the reward.

[Robert Silvers]

I know the US machines are way better. I know what after seeing the engraving examples from my thread.

I can better make my point with US supported Chinese machines.

There are people who pay 2-2.5x as much for a Chinese machine because it is supported by a US company. That is not something that I tend to benefit from as I can either fix it myself or pay $100 extra for Fedex from China, if say I need a new controller. So that that example, I would rather pay for support as I need it rather than get it for "free."

That is what I meant in that I wish there was a way to buy a US machine for $10000 less with worse support.

[Dan Hintz]

I can better make my point with US supported Chinese machines.

That is what I meant in that I wish there was a way to buy a US machine for $10000 less with worse support.

I'm still not sure what you're after, then. You have three categories to work with:
1) "Chinese machines", which you import
2) "Chinese machines with US support", which someone else paid to import and keep stock on hand
3) "US machines"

You simply will not get "US machines" at Chinese prices. If you're talking about "Chinese machines with US support", but at $10k less and worse support, well... that's the first category, a "Chinese machine", which you get to import.

Companies like Rabbit Laser often offer support for machines that weren't purchased through them, though goodwill is limited for obvious reasons. You can even purchase spare parts through them, assuming they have what you need... next-day FedExing a 100W tube from China will darn near cost you more than the machine itself cost you, so I don't think that's a fair example. Not to mention the idea a "warranty" from an overseas company doesn't hold the same water as one from a US-based firm. They could very easily tell you to pound sand if you annoy them enough (we've seen it happen) and now you're stuck without a working machine and no alternative.

In a nutshell, there's some piece of mind you're paying for with those higher-priced western machines.

[Dave Sheldrake]

I'm still not sure what you're after, then. You have three categories to work with:
1) "Chinese machines", which you import
2) "Chinese machines with US support", which someone else paid to import and keep stock on hand
3) "US machines"

You simply will not get "US machines" at Chinese prices. If you're talking about "Chinese machines with US support", but at $10k less and worse support, well... that's the first category, a "Chinese machine", which you get to import.

Companies like Rabbit Laser often offer support for machines that weren't purchased through them, though goodwill is limited for obvious reasons. You can even purchase spare parts through them, assuming they have what you need... next-day FedExing a 100W tube from China will darn near cost you more than the machine itself cost you, so I don't think that's a fair example. Not to mention the idea a "warranty" from an overseas company doesn't hold the same water as one from a US-based firm. They could very easily tell you to pound sand if you annoy them enough (we've seen it happen) and now you're stuck without a working machine and no alternative.

In a nutshell, there's some piece of mind you're paying for with those higher-priced western machines. Quoted in full as it's fantastic advice.

I see it and deal with it on a daily basis Dan, soon as I finished posting I'm back to sourcing a 5/24/36v PSU for a chap who has a Chinese machine that the manufacturer no longer has that type of PSU for. Thus far he has lost days, add in the time it's taking to find a PSU (or a work around) it's going to cost him more time with no absolute guarantee that a PSU will be available.

Last night I drove 300 miles and got home 2am in the morning delivering part of a big order from one of my regular customers who is going overseas Friday and needed the stuff. If I had one Chinese machine that had gone down the chances of that customer coming back after I let him down is close to zero.

I've heard all the justifications for direct imports and the numbers simply don't stack up, the lack of training and support costs...nothing is free in any business and I simply do not have the time to wait 3 weeks for a problem to be resolved while I fob off customers.

I'm in a lucky position, I have quite a few machines and a good percentage are Chinese BUT I expect problems with them hence the reason I bought them from a UK supplier who is at the end of a simple phonecall when I need them.

Singular direct import machines are a common fallacy for business use, the model quite simply doesn't work. I know Rod has a few directs but he's a man at the top of his game and not an entry level newbie so has the experience to fix what China can't.

Fault finding on lasers can be a nightmare, cascading problems often NEED on site from the machine supplier, if I have to spend 10 hours chasing an intermittent problem rather than working on using my other machines while my supplier fixes the problem I am losing money.

The easiest question for me is usually "you saved $4k on the card price, but took 2 weeks to set the thing up and self teach the idiosyncrasies they come with, who paid for those 2 weeks?" time costs, somebody somewhere ends up paying and I don't want to be in a position where the person paying is me :)

Nobody get me wrong, I love Chinese machines but consider them disposable :)

cheers

Dave

[Mike Null]

Robert

Here's your $10,000! Consider what you'll get out of a Trotec or Universal after several years of use. When I bought my Trotec over 6 years ago I sold my 8 year old ULS 25 watt machine for $7000. I've had offers on my 45 watt Trotec at over $10,000.

[Robert Silvers]

I have said this already but I would prefer a US machine with less support for less money.

[Martin Boekers]

I would say that fixing a design defect is just normal, and neither impressive or unimpressive. What is impressive are companies that fix stuff that was your fault and not theirs. And while I appreciate those companies, I don't think they need to fix stuff that is not their fault. Hmmmm what would actually be considered a design flaw or an improvement to the design? I have dealt with many companies through the years as I'm sure others have also, that have refused to repair, refund or whatever, even though there manufacturing issues with it. So I commend companies that stand by their products. It would have just as been easy to say, yup, you need a new motor $500. Instead they acknowledged that improvements have been made and stood by them. Sorry that your Waverunner & Subaru weren't bad enough for a recall.... :(

[Mark Ross]

This is exactly why we have two Epilog 36 EXT's and are getting close to a 3rd. Service and support second to none. On our Epilogs, I do however have to deal with the chiller. But the chiller is the guy that gets paid to sit there and change material and watch for fires and design Corel files...hehe...air cooled machines are SO much easier to deal with. As long as there is air, the machine runs.

[Larry Bratton]

After 6 years with my Epilog EXT, I am treated like a member of the family at Epilog. I just replaced a tube a few days ago and although they were backordered on Epilog tubes, they offered me a Coherent tube. The Epilog tube was 18 months old and thus in warranty. I get the same support today as I did when the machine was brand new. I rarely call them but deal with tech support via their online Chat. If you haven't tried it, especially you folks that are in other than the U.S. you really should. I have dealt with lots of different entities in my business life, but none, and I mean none are even close to them in tech support or service.

[Mike Spease]

I also agree with how good Epilog is. I recieved a used Legend 32 in trade for some design work. The carriage that holds the focus head had stripped threads so that it would not hold the head. My local rep told me to super glue it or tap out the threads to a larger size. I called Epilog and spoke to Brian. After they discussed my issue they sent me a new carriage head free. The machine is a 2001. Now that is going above and beyound with customer care because they did not want me to make my laser into a frankenstein machine. Also Ian is great with assisting me when I have an issue when it comes to getting cuts to come out correct

[rich shepard]

Brian and Ian are two of the best there is, and will not try to sell you a new part ( just because they can) if there is a way to try to get you back up and running with out it