Selling An Idea For a Woodworking Product

[Andrew Joiner]

I have a hardware product that would change the way cabinets are built and installed. I'm thinking of submitting an idea to Fastcap. Fastcap sells a lot of products that are designed by woodworkers.

Fastcap's website has a page called " Submit an idea to Fastcap" that explains the process: fastcap.com/estore/pc/Submit-An-Idea-to-FastCap-d67.htm

They don't sign non- disclosure agreements so I'd have to trust they won't steal my idea.
Does anyone here have experience dealing with Fastcap or Paul Akers the owner?
​Are there other competitors to Fastcap? I'm looking for a company that makes unique hardware for cabinets.

[Phil Thien]

Rockler also accepts ideas, and I think Woodcraft might.

No experience w/ either.

[John TenEyck]

If you believe your idea truly is revolutionary, you should patent it. Not cheap nor quick, but that's the only way you can protect your invention from being stolen by anyone who cares to. Even with a patent your idea can be ripped off unless you are willing to go after them in court. As you might guess, all this can be very expensive and time consuming. So if you aren't prepared to go that route, think about presenting your idea to companies who make products that already serve that market; Fastcap may be a good choice as you said. Contact them and see if you can get a personal meeting with them to present your idea and working examples. If they won't sign a confidentiality form, move on to those who will. It all comes down to how much you believe in your idea and how much work you are prepared to put into bringing it to market w/o losing control. Another approach is to develop a relationship with some private manufacturer to make the parts for you and you sell them directly. With this approach and no patent, anyone is free to copy it the minute they see it, so the only way for you to maintain the upper hand is to offer better service, lower prices, and a constant stream of product improvements. Most people give up somewhere along the line. A scant few persevere and sometimes eventually are rewarded.

John

[James Conrad]

If you don't have the means or desire to do the leg work to bring the product to market, then talk to these companies. Also, don't waist the money upfront on a patent, it's not even remotely cheap to do. If you are going to personally develop a prototype and bring it to market, you have 1 year in the U.S. from the first time you introduce it to the public to obtain the patent. During that time, if you work your tail off marketing it, you'll know if its something worth protecting.

[johnny means]

E-mail me your design ideas along with any drawings and or instructions. I'll let you know what to do :D

[Alan Schaffter]

I have no experience with FASTCAP, but so far have licensed two of my designs and am working with other manufacturers on other designs. As others have said, it takes a lot of time, work, and luck, and depending on what path you take, a lot of money.

Patenting- expensive ($10K - $20K +). No guarantee USPTO will issue you a patent. Have you done a patent search? Are you sure your idea or one very close to yours wasn't already patented? Is it non-obvious? It is amazing how many patents are on file (most on widgets never marketed). If you don't get a patent, you don't get any of your patent attorney and filing fees back. It is nearly impossible for a novice to successfully file and receive a quality patent. Also, as someone above said, a patent is only worth the amount of money you have for lawyers to defend it- the government or USPTO don't help you go after infringers. Numbers vary, but many books on the topic say 95% +/- of patented items never make it to market, not because they aren't good ideas or won't work (there are plenty of those, too!), but because they cannot be economically manufactured and marketed. A Provisional Patent Application (no such thing as a Provisional Patent) gives you limited protection while you attempt to market your idea, but it only lasts a year and is non-renewable.

Unless you have significant means to fund development, manufacturing and marketing, your only option is to license your design to a company that does. No manufacturer of WW widgets is likely to buy your design outright up front- too expensive for them, for what could be a pig in a poke. They may not want to license the design in your configuration and may or may not want your assistance while they turn it into something that fits their vision. Since the licensee is taking all the risks and spending money on development (few widgets as initially designed are ready to manufacture) licensing fees for typical woodworking accessories, etc. are in the 1% - 5% of wholesale cost - the lower part of that range is common. What that means is if you are getting 3% licensing fee on a widget that sells for $120 and might wholesale for $60, then you will get .03 X $60 = $1.80 for each widget sold. You ain't gonna get rich on that unless the volume is significant!

My suggestion, is read books by Pressman on patenting, do the best patent search on your own (see Google Patents), and read the World Intellectual Property Office training manual on licensing, before you go any farther.

[Rich Engelhardt]

No conversation about patents is complete w/out mentioning a couple of names.

Nikola Tesla and Rollin White.

Both should have been wealthy beyond imagination - but - due to very minor slips, died penniless.

Tesla is well known - White not so much.
White invented the bored through cylinder for a revolver which allowed cartridges to be loaded from the breech - instead of stuffing a ball down on top of a powder charge (muzzle loader).
White sold the patent to Smith and Wesson - but - S&W shrewdly put into the contract that it was up to White to defend the patent.
White spent the rest of his life in court fighting patent infringements while S&W reaped the benefits.

Moral - make sure you read, reread and then read the fine print several times again before you sign anything...

[Bill White]

Before you do anything with outsiders, draw the design and write a full description/use profile. Put this in a envelope and mail it to yourself.
Keep it filed UNOPENED. This becomes a document of legal evidence that it is your design/idea.
Bill

[Matt Meiser]

I would suggest (and this might not be the best advise from a legal perspective) that you find a couple people you really trust to review the design and get some opinions on whether its "revolutionary" in a Sawstop/Kreg Jig/Domino kind of way or if its "revolutionary" in a computerized-router-table-fence kind of way (currently advertised as revolutionary at Rockler.com!) The latter will likely end up on clearance tables everywhere for a fraction of the original price pretty quick but I'm sure whoever came up with the idea thinks is great. There's been a long stream of woodworking gadgets that put the kitchen gadget industry to shame over the last 15 years. And a lot of those are long gone.

[Jeff Duncan]

This is just my opinion so take it FWIW.....Fastcap has tried to build a reputation for bringing the ideas of woodworkers to market. I've read through their information in the process and it seems pretty well stated. My thought is if they were going to start stealing ideas it would not take long for the word to get out and their reputation destroyed. A hardware manufacturer on the other hand may be willing to help you out, though not likely for much if any more than what you'd get through Fastcap..... or they may just plain steal your idea. In which case you'll have to spend thousands going to court to try to get compensated.

In reality there's a lot of hardware out there for assembling cabinets. Have you thought seriously about how and why yours would be better? Would it be cheaper? Why would a manufacturer choose yours over what they're already set up for? If you can answer those questions, (to yourself), than go for it!

good luck,
JeffD

[Sam Murdoch]

Before you do anything with outsiders, draw the design and write a full description/use profile. Put this in a envelope and mail it to yourself.
Keep it filed UNOPENED. This becomes a document of legal evidence that it is your design/idea.
Bill


+ 1 to this. Also, photos of your prototype are invaluable.

Good idea too, after doing the above, to pass the product/idea by a group of trusted confidants to check its validity as a innovative and useful product - certainly before spending money on more development or patent protection. Sorry, I have no experience with Fast Cap, but at the very least, do start with documentation before you throw the idea into the marketplace.

[Steven DeMars]

Use evidence type of envelope internal to the mailing one also. Steve

[Mark Blatter]

Before you do anything with outsiders, draw the design and write a full description/use profile. Put this in a envelope and mail it to yourself.
Keep it filed UNOPENED. This becomes a document of legal evidence that it is your design/idea.
Bill

And don't trust anyone, if it is truly an idea that will make money. Verbal agreements are worthless, yet written contracts are only as good as the morality of the person who signs them on the other side. A cheap attorney will save you a few bucks.....a good one will save your bacon.

[Tom Matthews]

I was told by our company's lawyer in charge of IP activity that patent law has changed and it is now "first to file" so lab notebooks aren't enough to challange a patent as prior art. So the envelope thing might not be very useful.

Then again, I'm not a lawyer and it only costs a stamp.

[Andrew Joiner]

Thanks everyone for the feedback.
I have no time or desire to market this myself. I don't want to patent it myself or pay to defend the patent. I did spent money on that with another design 35 years ago and learned a lot.
I'm inclined to go with Fastcap to keep it simple. If the product is accepted by the market that would make me happy. Making big money isn't my primary goal.




This is just my opinion so take it FWIW.....Fastcap has tried to build a reputation for bringing the ideas of woodworkers to market. I've read through their information in the process and it seems pretty well stated. My thought is if they were going to start stealing ideas it would not take long for the word to get out and their reputation destroyed.
In reality there's a lot of hardware out there for assembling cabinets. Have you thought seriously about how and why yours would be better? Would it be cheaper? Why would a manufacturer choose yours over what they're already set up for? If you can answer those questions, (to yourself), than go for it!
good luck,
JeffD

Thanks Jeff. You may be right, I get the same impression about Fastcaps reputation. I will contact some of the inventors Fastcap has partnered with to hear their side.
I made my own kitchen cabinets with a prototype of this design 10 years ago. It's more of a system that uses unique hardware. It works well, it's cheaper, and it makes storage more efficient. When I show it to kitchen people they are excited, so it's not just me.

[Adam Diethrich]

AKA - The Poor Man's Patent
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poor_man%27s_copyright

"There is no provision in US copyright law regarding any such type of protection. Poor man's copyright is therefore not a substitute for registration. According to section 408 of the U.S. Copyright Act of 1976 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_Act_of_1976), registration of a work with the Copyright Office (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Copyright_Office) is not a prerequisite for copyright protection.[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poor_man%27s_copyright#cite_note-2)"

A.W.D.

[Dan Hintz]

AKA - The Poor Man's Patent
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poor_man%27s_copyright

"There is no provision in US copyright law regarding any such type of protection. Poor man's copyright is therefore not a substitute for registration. According to section 408 of the U.S. Copyright Act of 1976 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_Act_of_1976), registration of a work with the Copyright Office (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Copyright_Office) is not a prerequisite for copyright protection.[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poor_man%27s_copyright#cite_note-2)"

A.W.D.

I'm glad someone posted this... if you didn't, I would have. Why this myth continues to exist eludes me.

[Andrew Joiner]

It's down to Rockler,Woodcraft or Fastcap. I was searching around to get an idea of the size of each company . Then I found out Woodcraft ,Rockler and many similar companies sell Fastcap products. So I should be better off volume-wise to work with Fastcap.

Also the owner of Fastcap is really into kaizen. My design would eliminate a lot of the parts of a typical cabinet but improve the storage access. Hopefully that would impress a kaizen buff.

[Richard Coers]

It's down to Rockler,Woodcraft or Fastcap. I was searching around to get an idea of the size of each company . Then I found out Woodcraft ,Rockler and many similar companies sell Fastcap products. So I should be better off volume-wise to work with Fastcap.

Also the owner of Fastcap is really into kaizen. My design would eliminate a lot of the parts of a typical cabinet but improve the storage access. Hopefully that would impress a kaizen buff.


Some cabinets only have 6 pieces of material and two hinges, just wondering how you would eliminate a "lot of parts" from that and still call it a cabinet? I don't expect an answer, just thinking.

[Pat Barry]

+ 1 to this. Also, photos of your prototype are invaluable.

Good idea too, after doing the above, to pass the product/idea by a group of trusted confidants to check its validity as a innovative and useful product - certainly before spending money on more development or patent protection. Sorry, I have no experience with Fast Cap, but at the very least, do start with documentation before you throw the idea into the marketplace.

Patent rules have changed recently. Patent protection is now based on 'first to file' versus previous 'first to invent'. Mailing that sketch to yourself is no protection whatsoever if someone else gets their patent application in to the USPTO before you do.

[J.R. Rutter]

I would be very wary about sharing your product idea with anyone without talking to a lawyer first. Pay for 60 minutes of their time and find out what if any recourse you have if your idea appears later without your knowledge or consent. Do some product development. The more you refine it, the more valuable it will be (more likely to be produced).

[Kevin L. Pauba]

With the new "first-to-file" rule, I would spring the $500 or so to submit a provisional patent. Assuming your own patent search hasn't shown any prior art, this is considered a filing (so that you're the first-to-file). You can then claim to the company that your idea is in a "patent-pending" status that will prevent them from filing a patent for the same idea. It won't necessarily prevent them from stealing the idea, though. You must then file a full patent application within a year or so (which costs big(ger) bucks).

IANAL, but this is my understanding based on patents I've received that were filed by my company's lawyers.

[Alan Schaffter]

One thing to consider- according to some of my sources in the WW industry, and despite what you may think about Grizzly and others who typically copy machines where the patents have expired, copying or stealing (infringing) designs with active patents is very rare. In fact copying of non-patented designs is pretty rare. I can think of only a few recent examples, like Bench Cookies, Paws, etc. Without knowing whether they protected the design or have licensed it and variations of it, an outsider can't make a judgement. Unless the design is very simple, copying may still require considerable developmental costs.

By the way, when you file a full Utility Patent, the USPTO publishes all the details and drawings of your design a year or more before a patent is issued. That gives a company that may be inclined to copy it a chance to reverse engineer the design and change it just enough to avoid infringement. If they are quick, they can also get it to market at the same time or before your product!!

[Dan Hintz]

Sears has been busted on more than one occasion for copying a patented tool design... they make a minor change (one that does not invalidate the patent) and sidestep the original person who came to them. I think the most recent example was a ratcheting pruner.

[Alan Schaffter]

Sears has been busted on more than one occasion for copying a patented tool design... they make a minor change (one that does not invalidate the patent) and sidestep the original person who came to them. I think the most recent example was a ratcheting pruner.

They got nailed quite a few years ago on the socket wrench handle with quick release button. Of course, any more, it is a stretch to classify Sears as a WW company. :D

[Dan Hintz]

They got nailed quite a few years ago on the socket wrench handle with quick release button. Of course, any more, it is a stretch to classify Sears as a WW company. :D

<chuckle> I was in no way, shape, or form suggesting Sears is a WW company (though you can purchase woodworking equipment from them made by Jet, Delta, etc.), just pointing out that stealing a patented item can and does happen by even the big giants in the commercial market, and it's not a one-time thing.