Walter Meire bought by Tenex Capital Management!

[Kyle Brooks]

I hope this does not mean a downgrade in the quality of tools!

[Mike Henderson]

Who is Walter Meire and what tools do they make?

Mike

[David Kumm]

You could argue that Jet and PM were all ready run as if owned by venture capital. They haven't set the bar that high. Dave

[Roger Feeley]

WMH tool group is a member of Walter Meir. That means that Jet and Powermatic.

JET®, POWERMATIC®, WILTON®, PERFORMAX®, COLUMBIAN®, WAXMASTER®, and POLISHMASTER®.

[Joseph Tarantino]

I hope this does not mean a downgrade in the quality of tools!

i doubt they'd go from decidedly average to outright poor overnight, but there is that possibility. of course, that kind of a reduction in the standards to which their tools would conform would probably be associated with a healthy increase in the price of their tools. ;)

[Brian Gumpper]

Please advise what makes them average compared to their peers and who you think their peers are.

[glenn bradley]

Let's not start a paint-war. Grizzly, WMH, Baileigh, Steel City, Delta, etc. are all peers. The price issue mentioned may be a poke at the fact that some of these guys are priced much higher than others; sometimes double. The crash and burn of badges like Porter-Cable tend to get some of us in a twist when our favorite falls under the knife ;-( I will hope that WMH at least maintain their current levels. Maybe it even hints at an influx of capitol that will do good things.

[David Weaver]

I get a chuckle every time I see Jet's prices for the 18 inch bandsaw. about 5 years ago, maybe 6, I bought the 18x (which was the square column version of the same saw). The current version has a quick release and a triangular column, but is otherwise the same spec and is about $1750. I paid $1075 when I got mine (the MAP at the time was about $1199, though). Nonetheless, it's humorous to call that a $1750 saw.

We have a term around here for powermatic "domestic pricing and import quality". when a friend and I went to IWF a few years ago, we kept looking at the powermatic machines expecting to see something US made because of the price, and then after that, looking for the "actual sale price" of the machines when they turned out to all be imported. I guess the tags on them represented their actual sale price, which was awfully close to what a lot of the euro machines were, and in some cases higher. There's a disconnect there that I just flat out don't get.

Whatever the reason was for the very sharp price increases after I got a BS years ago, it sent me looking elsewhere when i needed a midi lathe.

[Keith Hankins]

Interesting, I had not heard of the purchase. One way to look at it is, there are folks out there willing to put a lot of money out for something they see value in. Does not have to mean cut in quality necessarily. It will depend on the management team they put in place.

As to the tools and where made, that can be a mixed bag. When I got back into WW around 11 years ago after a few years of break time. I took a chance on Grizzly and have to admit I've been lucky. I bought the 1023 10"TS, the 17" BS, and the 12" jointer. The first two were Taiwan and the last china. All have served we well and I can't complain. At the price point I had, it was the right decision (as i knew things then). Today, I'd go a different route. The solution I've been going to now is to buy old american iron. I started with a northfield 18" planer I got for 1500 on ebay thats so far ahead of anyhting out there now. It was built in the 60's. I wish I'd know about this option back when I started buying tools. I also picked up a 1934 delta BS (the original) for a couple hundred, and I've got an old Walker-Turner 16" bs that as soon as I replace the bearings, will be a 1000lb hoss.

I was in woodcraft yesterday and they had a lot of the nice big PM tools on the floor and I was impressed with the fit and finish and they have a lot of cast iron, but I can also tell where they cut corners. The big bandsaw was impressive. The big lathes, and planers looked top notch with big price tags as well. All had plates listing either Taiwan or china. Breaks my heart, but thats how it's been for a long time. I've noticed even the lower end laguna's that were there are chinese (3000 series).

In the end time will tell. I just hope and pray they are sucessful and don't take those tool lines down the B&D road. Thats a hope anyway.

[Dale Murray]

I am particularly interested in this as I will be entering the table saw market within the next year and trying to decide between Powermatic and Delta. For all you Sawstop evangelists, I have not ruled them out nor have I ruled them in. So, Powermatic and taken a slide in the best decade?

[Bill White]

Dale, Delta is in a bit of turmoil too. I've read many post about lack of parts, customer support, etc.
Just my thoughts, and they are not meant to interfere.
Bill

[Dale Murray]

No, please do interfere. This forum and my father are the only people I have to rely on when it comes to tool acquisition. His shop is fully outfitted so he is worthless to me when it comes to buying new tools - he is not in the market nor pays attention to it.

Seems like all the good stuff has gone to pot in the past decade.

[Phil Thien]

Dale, Delta is in a bit of turmoil too. I've read many post about lack of parts, customer support, etc.
Just my thoughts, and they are not meant to interfere.
Bill

I think Delta might be improving. They have a parts ordering site up now that shows inventory levels on parts. I know they've stumbled, but it is entirely possible they're getting their you-know-what together.

[John McClanahan]

Not to get off topic, but what's up with Delta? I thought Stanley switched the Delta tools they wanted to keep to Porter Cable and sold the Unisaw and Delta name to a Taiwanese company. Now on The American Wood Shop (PBS) runs the same Delta/Porter Cable sponsor ads that ran on the New Yankee Workshop.

John

[Doug Ladendorf]

I think Delta might be improving. They have a parts ordering site up now that shows inventory levels on parts. I know they've stumbled, but it is entirely possible they're getting their you-know-what together.

Man, I sure hope so. I ended up replacing a switch with a Grizzly part that would fit just because Delta has been MIA. I need another lathe part that is proprietary. I'll have to check out the site you mention Phil.

It will be interesting to see what happens with Walter Meier. PE firms are there to maximize value, which I would not read to lower cost and raise quality. Here is a bit more on the deal:


The transaction is expected to close by 31 October 2013.

Michael Green, chief executive of Tenex Capital Management, says: “In Walter Meier Tools, we have acquired a strong company with great brands and a growing market share in each of its segments. The well recognised brands of JET, Wilton and Powermatic define the resilience and durability of the products. We look forward to supporting the company and its management team in executing its continuing growth initiatives.”

http://www.bizjournals.com/nashville/morning_call/2013/10/la-vergnes-walter-meier-tools-to-be.html?ana=RSS&s=article_search&utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+industry_8+%28Industry+Manufa cturing%29

http://www.privateequitywire.co.uk/2013/10/09/191038/tenex-capital-management-acquire-walter-meier-tools-business

[john davey]

Hmm, so Powermatic is basically the same as the rest of the companies??? Everything is made in the same place and just painted and badged??? I thought the turners raved about the Powermatic lathe over in the turning forum. Is that one different somehow?

[johnny means]

Hmm, so Powermatic is basically the same as the rest of the companies??? Everything is made in the same place and just painted and badged??? I thought the turners raved about the Powermatic lathe over in the turning forum. Is that one different somehow?
I don't think an $8000 lathe (or any of their other flagships) have any bearing in this argument; no more than the Dodge Viper represented the quality of the Neon. Any company can blow the budget and create excellence. The question is, what are their more pedestrian offerings? IMO, pretty much all your hobbiest level machines are rather average. Now don't get me wrong, I think PM makes fine 10" cabinet saw, 14" bandsaw, etc. They just aren't that much different from Grizzly's offerings at 1/2 the price. I have hammers ranging from cheapo Craftsmans to high dollar Eastwings and I really couldn't say one is better than another. Their is just not much you can do with a hammer.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Johnny,

Where do you find a $8,000 lathe that's made by Powermatic?

Value or worth is subjective. It's a matter of personal preference. There is no right or wrong.

[Rich Harkrader]

The Powermatic 4224 lathe is 7500+.

[glenn bradley]

Hmm, so Powermatic is basically the same as the rest of the companies??? Everything is made in the same place and just painted and badged??? I thought the turners raved about the Powermatic lathe over in the turning forum. Is that one different somehow?

I don't believe we are saying that any of these badges are junk or even poor in general. The PM 3520x lathes get rave reviews, their PM2800 DP, not so much. Grizzly's G0490x jointer is widely praised, Grizzly lathes not so much. The era we wistfully look back to when a badge meant a level of quality that could be depended on across the board is what, I think, is being lamented. T'was a time that Sears took care of you, cradle to grave . . . but to stop and think about it . . . The older I get, the better I was too ;).

[Stephen Cherry]

I'm not saying nothin. Don't want to get into trouble.:)

[Larry Edgerton]

The sky is falling, the sky is falling........

None of the brands in that group are what I would call spectacular, so maybe, just maybe, quality will be improved.

Just a random thought.........

Larry

[John Sanford]

The purchase of a company by a "capital management" company doesn't mean that the quality will go down. It doesn't mean it will go up. It simply means that somebody in a capital management outfit sees an opportunity to make some money.

As an example, Ducati Motorcycles was acquired by Texas Pacific Group (TPG Capital now) in 1996. The bikes got better and better, and TPG finished cashing out in 2005. Conversely, we've seen great tool companies get hosed by other great tool companies. Porter-Cable's butchery at the hands of B&D then Stanley Black & Decker comes to mind as the most obvious recent example. So simply changing hands, whether to an investment company or another tool company doesn't necessarily mean a whole lot any which way.

[John TenEyck]

Dale, unless you buy a SawStop, there is nothing to be gained and a lot of downside IMO in buying any other new TS, except the high end European ones which are at a different price level. Those old Unisaws, PM-66's, etc., have been around for decades because they were built like battleships. You can often find them at a very reasonably price, parts are available, and many aftermarket products (like rip fences) are available for them. They are a far better value IMO. Best of all, they will run with minimal maintenance for decades more. Forget the shiny paint. Look under the hood.

John

[Joseph Tarantino]

Johnny,

Where do you find a $8,000 lathe that's made by Powermatic?

Value or worth is subjective. It's a matter of personal preference. There is no right or wrong.

in an economic sense, value derives from the utility received from an item vs. the consideration that is exchanged for that utility. obviously, the greater the utility received and the lower the amount of consideration which must be exchanged to receive that utility, the greater the value. this discussion does not recognize the superficial thrill an individual may realize when exchanging an amount of consideration that is out of proprtion for the utility derived from an item.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

I would suggest there is no definitive measure for utility. That is subjective. What are the units of measurement for utility?

Take art for example. There is no measurement for value or utility and thus people pay more or less for a given piece because it's value, it's utility and it's beauty is only what a particular buyer realizes and is willing to pay.

Value is subjective. It's a matter of personal opinion. What you value may be meaningless to the next person and thus not as valuable to the other person. There is no right or wrong. There is no moral high ground.

[Joseph Tarantino]

I would suggest there is no definitive measure for utility. That is subjective. What are the units of measurement for utility?

for things like a TS, it could be defects per thousand units sold. or linear feet of material ripped in a given time period. the unit of measure would vary with the subject item (tool) and would be measured against the consideration exchanged for the item.

Take art for example. There is no measurement for value or utility and thus people pay more or less for a given piece because it's value, it's utility and it's beauty is only what a particular buyer realizes and is willing to pay.

art, i would argue, has no economic utility. it may have emotional utility, and that would be subjective as it is less easily quantified and has no rational basis.

Value is subjective. It's a matter of personal opinion. What you value may be meaningless to the next person and thus not as valuable to the other person. There is no right or wrong. There is no moral high ground.

utility is not a question of moral high ground. it is, in an economic sense, quantifiable. providing greater consideration for an item because it provides emotional reassurance should not be confused with soundly based economic decisions that seek to maximize functional utility.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Value is strictly what an individual buyer perceives as an objects worth. It makes economic sense. It is subjective and there is no defined unit of measurement for utility or functional utility. That's why different people are willing to pay different prices for an exact same object. The different buyers place different values on the object.

You argue solely for the sake of argument. I could easily reveal the reason Joseph but for now I won't.

Enjoy your evening Joseph.

[Mike Henderson]

Yep, to quote W. Edward Demming, "Quality is what the customer says it is." Too many people think that quality can only be expensive, high tolerance products. But the customer may want a product that is acceptable to the job and which is cheap enough to be discarded when the job is completed (for example). In that case, the expensive, high tolerance product is not high quality and the cheap, discardable product is high quality.

So many companies have gone out of business and the owner has said, "But I always made a high quality product!" If it's not what the customer wanted, it's not high quality.

Another way of phrasing it is "Quality is meeting the needs of the customer."

Mike

[A woodworking example: Many woodworkers use Japanese saws, not because they're so much better than western saws, but because they don't have to learn how to sharpen a saw or send the saw out to be sharpened. They just buy a new blade. For them (for their needs), the Japanese saw is a higher quality product than a western saw. It best meets their needs. Those who would argue with those people and try to tell them they're wrong and that western saws are of higher quality are on a fool's errand.]

[Joseph Tarantino]

.......I could easily reveal the reason Joseph but for now I won't.......

aaahhhh, threats. the last bastion of an indefensible position.

[Joseph Tarantino]

Yep, to quote W. Edward Demming, "Quality is what the customer says it is." Too many people think that quality can only be expensive, high tolerance products. But the customer may want a product that is acceptable to the job and which is cheap enough to be discarded when the job is completed (for example). In that case, the expensive, high tolerance product is not high quality and the cheap, discardable product is high quality.

So many companies have gone out of business and the owner has said, "But I always made a high quality product!" If it's not what the customer wanted, it's not high quality.

Another way of phrasing it is "Quality is meeting the needs of the customer."

Mike

[A woodworking example: Many woodworkers use Japanese saws, not because they're so much better than western saws, but because they don't have to learn how to sharpen a saw or send the saw out to be sharpened. They just buy a new blade. For them (for their needs), the Japanese saw is a higher quality product than a western saw. It best meets their needs. Those who would argue with those people and try to tell them they're wrong and that western saws are of higher quality are on a fool's errand.]

actually, many quality managers define quality as conformance with a standard. a hugo automobile that did what it was designed to do could therefore be defined as a quality product, while a rolls royce, plagued with manufacturing defects, would not be a quality product as it did not conform to it's presciribed standards.

[Mike Henderson]

actually, many quality managers define quality as conformance with a standard. a hugo automobile that did what it was designed to do could therefore be defined as a quality product, while a rolls royce, plagued with manufacturing defects, would not be a quality product as it did not conform to it's presciribed standards.
Yep, that's the problem with things like ISO9000. It's basically "Say what you do and do what you say". But that's very short sighted. If you're doing something the customer doesn't want, the product won't be successful. And that's of course why Demming properly defined quality in terms of the customer.

The assumption behind what those quality managers say is that someone has worked with the customer to find out what the customer wants and then developed a specification to build a product. Since the quality manager only has limited authority, s/he defines quality within their domain as conformance to a standard. So the product can be completely failing in the marketplace because the marketing organization didn't do a good job, but the quality manager can absolutely prove that the manufacturing organization is building a quality product.

If you want to be successful in the marketplace, you must define quality in terms of what the customer wants.

Mike

[Ken Fitzgerald]

aaahhhh, threats. the last bastion of an indefensible position.

I am not threatening you Joseph. I am merely suggesting I could provide evidence of an obsession that further demonstrates your somewhat "different" views on value and reason.

Art is of little value to you Joseph, only, because as a perspective buyer you fail to find value in it. Value is subjective, it's personal. The next person may be willing to pay handsomely for a piece of art and it's not a sin. There is no right or wrong. I would suggest that those in the business of selling art find a lot of economic utility in it beyond the emotional utility you described.

Take real estate Joseph. The value of real estate is subjective. It's only worth what a perspective buyer is willing to pay. It doesn't matter what the seller believes the value is. It is not related in any way to the value that the place might assessed for tax purposes. It's only worth what a potential buyer is willing to pay. If a property is listed at too high a price, it may remain on the market for a very long time or never be sold. If it's listed at too low a price, it might sell quickly. But there is no right or wrong. It is not unusual in some housing markets for potential buyers to get into a bidding war and the person or persons with the highest bid buys the property. It happened recently to my youngest son, and his wife when their beautifully remodeled home sold for well over the asking price. Two competing buyers got into a bidding war. The buyers saw more value in the property and were willing to pay more but....it's subjective. Something is worth what the buyer is willing to pay.

There is no right or wrong.

But in the end .... for some reason I fail to understand, you just want to argue......

Have a good life Joseph.

[Frederick Skelly]

+1 Ken.

A lot of interesting discussion here.

Id like to repectfully add that I can make up measures/metrics for anything if I want to. That doesnt mean they are useful or meaningful. Ask someone who's had to report metrics to their management in a job other than manufacturing/production.

[Joseph Tarantino]

Yep, that's the problem with things like ISO9000. It's basically "Say what you do and do what you say". But that's very short sighted. If you're doing something the customer doesn't want, the product won't be successful. And that's of course why Demming properly defined quality in terms of the customer.

The assumption behind what those quality managers say is that someone has worked with the customer to find out what the customer wants and then developed a specification to build a product. Since the quality manager only has limited authority, s/he defines quality within their domain as conformance to a standard. So the product can be completely failing in the marketplace because the marketing organization didn't do a good job, but the quality manager can absolutely prove that the manufacturing organization is building a quality product.

If you want to be successful in the marketplace, you must define quality in terms of what the customer wants.

Mike

seems like there's confusion between quality and gauging market demand for a product. quality is not some form of "goodness" or "virtue", it is conformance to a standard so it can be measured and managed. building a great product that doesn't sell is possible and is not an example of poor quality. rather, it's an example of poor marketing research. good marketing research results in product features which are deemed desirable by the target market and result in specifications for that product. but a desired product won't sell many units if it doesn't conform to the design standards.

[Mike Henderson]

That's a problem with the definition of quality. But the only thing that counts is market success - meeting the needs of the customer. Too many companies have built to spec and failed. Look at Japanese cars. They were successful because they built what customers wanted - a car that would last. The American manufacturers were building to spec.
You decide which definition is more worthwhile.

Mike

[Thom Sturgill]

And you think the Japanese didn't build to spec.? the highest manufacturing award in Japan is the Demming.

A quality engineer once told me that the Ford Pinto was a higher quality car than the Cadillac. Cadillac had tight specs and often failed to meet them while the Pinto had loose specs and nearly always met them. While this was a technical definition of quality it fies in the face of the 'normal' understanding of quality .