Building a wide fence gate

[C Scott McDonald]

So i need to build a gate to close in a drive way. It is 125.25 between the posts. The fence will be 47" high. I am going to split it into two gates but the will be over five feet long.

I am going to build the frame out of cedar 2x4 using pocket holes to re-enforce the joints.

since it is going to be a wide gate should I use a diagonal brace or a third horizontal member?

This is going in Laramie Wyoming where the wind always blows so this needs to be over engineered.

I am going to use these hinges

http://www.stanleyhardware.com/detail/cd2908-heavy-duty-gate-hinge-set-s808-782

Any input is welcome.

Thanks,

Scott

[Dick Brown]

Scott, you didn't tell us what the gate is to be made of other than the frame. If it were to be plywood, no other brace needed. If it is going to be built with vertical boards, spaced or not, it needs a diagonal brace. Difference of opinions on hinge end of brace from bottom up or top down. Could do the X thing. Best of both. Once again, not knowing what it is to be built of, no opinion on third member. Need more info.

[Mel Fulks]

I reccomend the the late 19th century book FENCES, GATES, and BRIDGES reprint which is available from Lee Valley. You might even change your mind about the hinges. Shows a pivoting gate counterbalanced by a big rock.

[C Scott McDonald]

It will be the normal wooden slats i think they are 4" width.

[Jamie Buxton]

If you're just filling the frame with vertical boards, you absolutely must use diagonal bracing. Another horizontal brace doesn't do squat. Go look at old gates around you. The way they fail is that they rack as a parallelogram. Your bracing must prevent that.

The other way that gates fail is that the posts sag. The gates hang on them 24-7, and the weight slowly bends the posts if they're small, or moves the dirt so the post lean. You need the same anti-wracking bracing preventing post sag.

[Mike Wilkins]

For a gate the size you described, I would think mortise and tenon would be a stronger joinery choice. I would not want to trust the corners with pocket holes. Nothing wrong with them, I just like to over-engineer something like this. Pegged M/T joints as well. And the diagonal braces. The size of the gates, the distance from the hinge post, and possible high wind loads suggest tough joinery.

[johnny means]

You could use a diagonal cable with a turnbuckle. This would allow you to adjust the rack of the gate if it was ever needed.

[Peter Quinn]

Cedar is not known for its ability to hold screws, I'd look at more traditional joinery if this is something you expect to last. You are cantelevering 5' of material, the longest pocket screws made aren't enough IMO long term. Even dowels are a better solution. Look for examples of proper English gates, its important to design joinery to shed water and to include bird's mouths to resist racking. It's the difference between a 40 year solution and a 10 year to failure scenario.

[Erik Loza]

Scott, have you considered using a metal gate and then skinning it to your taste? we had a new fence put in about a year ago. One gate is all-wood, the other is metal (barn-gate with cedar skin). The wood one has required adjustment/reinforcing/etc. several times so far while the metal one is still perfect. Just some food for thought and best of luck.

Oh, also, have you looked at something like this....

http://orders.homaxproducts.com/Browse-Homax-Products/easyGATE-No-Sag-Bracket-Kit
272478

I just bought one for small gate I need to build but have not done it yet.

Erik Loza
Minimax USA

[Von Bickley]

Scott, have you considered using a metal gate and then skinning it to your taste? we had a new fence put in about a year ago. One gate is all-wood, the other is metal (barn-gate with cedar skin). The wood one has required adjustment/reinforcing/etc. several times so far while the metal one is still perfect. Just some food for thought and best of luck.

Oh, also, have you looked at something like this....

http://orders.homaxproducts.com/Browse-Homax-Products/easyGATE-No-Sag-Bracket-Kit
272478

I just bought one for small gate I need to build but have not done it yet.

Erik Loza
Minimax USA

I agree with Erik on the metal gate. I have seen a lot of wooden gates with sagging problems.

[Sam Murdoch]

With respect Scott, the simple description and details that you provide suggest to me that your are way under building. I agree with those who have suggested doing some research on gate construction. Pocket screws are IMHO simply not adequate. Maybe you could use some long timber locks rather then tenons but a combination of joinery, a good exterior adhesive such as epoxy and mechanical fastenings (other than pocket screws) will serve you better, and diagonal bracing for sure. The hinges for a 5'+ gate are too small. They will never resist the downward lean of the gate 5' out. You might look into some heavy duty strap hinges with a big bearing surface at the posts. Also, I would suggest the the post sections set into the ground be of metal set into concrete then clad with wood. Metal gates is certainly something worth investigating.

[Mel Fulks]

The book I posted about is not about weekend projects,it is a practical guide with engineered solutions including hinges and latches. Wood gates can last a long time.

[Michael W. Clark]

I would sure look at steel, clad with the slats as well.

If you go with wood, you will need a diagonal (may need it with the steel too). I would orient the diagonal so that it runs from the bottom gate hinge up. This makes the the diagonal carry the racking load in compression, not tension. This would put more of the weight of the gate pushing in on the bottom hinge of the post. If you orient it the other way (running down from the top hinge), it will be in tension and try to pull the top hinge out of the post. It also puts more tension on your joinery instead of compression.

Another option is to put wheels on the gate panels to carry the load.

Mike

[C Scott McDonald]

I ended up getting the brackets Eric suggested and the gates turned out pretty well!

Some things of note are I had to rip down the vertical 2x4's a smidge to get them to fit into the brackets. Also had to cut a little 45's on the ends a to make room for the welds. They go together quick.

I would have loved to done a Steel gate but the budget wasn't there as this was a family job.


Overall pretty happy with it.

[Cary Falk]

I would use metal posts and metal frames and skin it with the cedar. The size of the door will cause it to sag and the post to bend.

[David Helm]

Cedar is not known for its ability to hold screws, I'd look at more traditional joinery if this is something you expect to last. You are cantelevering 5' of material, the longest pocket screws made aren't enough IMO long term. Even dowels are a better solution. Look for examples of proper English gates, its important to design joinery to shed water and to include bird's mouths to resist racking. It's the difference between a 40 year solution and a 10 year to failure scenario.

+1 on the English gates. I have seen numerous large gates there (all wood, likely oak) that have lasted for centuries. They are very well engineered and are not likely a weekend project. I also would not use cedar for a gate that size.

[Kevin McCluney]

See the attached pictures for examples of simple gate construction using diagonal bracing. The material is pressure-treated pine. The pickets are simply nailed to the cross pieces and the hinges are screwed to the cross piece ends. The double gate spans just over 6' total and the single gate is ~4' wide. Sagging has not been an issue: the small gate is >10 years old and the double gate a couple of years newer (it survived Hurricane Ike, though the fence perpendicular to it fell over partially). There's extra bracing midway up on the double gate to hold the crossbar on the other side that keeps them closed.

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