Larger mortises for bench & chisels

[Mike Holbrook]

I am ordering chisels from Stu at Tools from Japan. I am having a problem figuring a few chisel types out. I plan to order a few chisels that are a little different than the ones discussed in some previous threads. Ouchi makes a chisel called a Kaku-uchi oire-nomi. These chisels are trapezoidal in their basic shape. Which is to say there is a slight taper to the sides but no lands on the sides. Stu may hurt me for drawing this comparison but I believe the sides of these chisels are more like the sides of the new Veritas PM bench chisels or the popular Lie-Nielsen bench chisels. The angle on the sides of the Kaku-uchi chisels is closer to 90 degrees though. I understand Stu has a special run of these Ouchi chisels being made that will have a little more angle to the sides.

I am trying to put two & two together here without getting more than 4 but, I think this chisel shape might have some advantages both for mortising and dovetailing. It seems to me that this chisel profile comes a little closer to Japanese and Western mortise/sash chisel shapes. I am guessing that this profiles popularity may have to do with this shape working well at both chopping mortises and getting into tight corners without bruising walls?

I am specifically looking for a chisel to cut quite a few 5/8" mortises in the base for a workbench. I understand that quite a few posters here think that cutting large mortises with a chisel is too much like work, so they drill the greater part of the waste out and chop/pare the remainder. Still I believe it will be useful to have a chisel matched to the mortises, actually one might match the mortise to the exact size of a particular chisel. My issue is I do not own a chisel close to 5/8", so I plan to buy one. If I understand correctly a good number of posters here might use a bench chisel similar to the Ochi Kaku-uchi for this work, either doing the entire mortise, like Paul Sellers, with the "bench" chisel or drilling and then paring with the "bench" chisel?

I have also been interested in another type of Japanese chisel, referred to as a striking (Tataki) chisel. Koyamaichi apparently offers several versions of this chisel. Stu apparently stocks the lightest Chu-tataki version and can get the others from either Koyamaichi or Ouchi. I understand these are designed for constant heavy use with heavy striking tools. I wonder if these are frequently used for large mortises? I have seen Japanese craftsmen nocking out huge chunks of wood from plane bodies with chisels that I am guessing are a version of this chisel type. I suspect this type chisel is not as popular in our western world as other methods are more popular for removing large amounts of wood?

[Jack Curtis]

For a 5/8" (15.875mm) mortise, a mukomachi should fit the bill, NOT oire and tataki is used for timber framing and thus would be overkill. The great things about mukomachi are the sharp arrises on the back and the trapezoidal shape, both of which help you cut that mortise.

[Mike Holbrook]

Toshio Odate's book on Japanese tools says Mukomachi or mortise chisels go up to 15mm 9/16". Tools from Japan (TFJ) carries Koyamaichi Muko-machi-nomi but they only go up to 12mm. Jim Kingshott uses what looks like a larger Mukomachi in his video on Mortises and Tenons which is why I was a little surprised that Tools from Japan only carries up to 12mm versions. Apparently the smaller sizes are more popular?

TFJ lists three different types of Koyamaichi Tataki. The Chu-tataki-nomi is the lightest of these and apparently the only one they stock. The Chu description says it is a "scaled up oire-nomi...better suited for those tasks where the chisel will be used with considerable force, but not outright abuse and where hammer blows to drive the edge through the work will be the rule, not the exception"

The Ouchi Kaku-uchi oire-nomi with their trapezoidal shape appear to be more like a mortise chisel than any of the other oire-nomi.

[David Wong]

Here are some pictures of my bench, timber, and mortise chisels, to give you a sense of relative size. Sorry that the chisels are not all the same width.

The chisels from left to right are: Matsumura bench chisel, Ouichi bench chisel, two Iroyoi timber chisels, and two mortise chisels. I find the mortise chisels much easier to use that the
tataki chisels, but I do not do many wide mortises. If you wanted deep mortises, thetataki chisels would definitely be the way to go. The Ouchi bench chisel may be similar to the
Ouichi Kaku-uchi oire-nomi you are interested in, perhaps less beefier. The 3rd photo shows the Matsumura and Ouichi bench chisels in more detail. The last photo shows the Ouichi bench chisel next to the mortise chisel.

My normal bench chisels are usually the Matsumura - I like the smaller handles and thinner profiles. By the way, the largest Ouichi mortise chisel I have is 18mm (not shown).

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-1X6t6H-NS9w/UlN-PjvKs8I/AAAAAAAAAco/EPZQvuxoeOM/w800-h800-no/DSCF4238.jpghttps://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-sNDqyd0Qe9U/UlN-PnyAcKI/AAAAAAAAAcs/QOsUqTGqiDM/w800-h800-no/DSCF4237.jpghttps://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-J6dBs1Q0KVY/UlN-OtqjtjI/AAAAAAAAAcg/OQLizn3iT6I/w800-h800-no/DSCF4236.jpghttps://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-No8_9OF0oJw/UlN-QCWIiII/AAAAAAAAAcw/VeQO7KIBf8s/w800-h800-no/DSCF4239.jpg

[Mike Holbrook]

Very helpful David, thank you. These chisels are close enough in size and shape so that it is not easy to see the differences without putting them side by side.

The Ouchi chisels I am interested in are like the Kaku-uchi but with 75 degree sides. The Kaku-uchi looks beefy next to the Matsumura, although the front view reveals that the greatest difference is in the sides/lands. I think the version of the Kaku-uchi with the 75 degree sides will be closer to the Matsumura. The mortise chisel is beefier than the Kaku-uchi. I am planing to get 4.5mm and 7.5mm mortise chisels by Koyamaichi. I don't plan to make large mortises regularly either. I just need a way to make the mortises in my bench plan. I think I can get the job done on the 5/8" mortises with a 15mm Ouchi similar to the Kaku-uchi for the one project. I can drill and clean up with the 15mm if I have to.

[Jack Curtis]

I've long thought there weren't mukomachi larger than 18mm because anything larger wouldn't be considered a mortise; but what timber framed huge "mortises" would be called I haven't a clue, maybe "tata?" :) I have no problem thinking about using a tataki, but I've also had no problem obtaining and using a 15mm mortising chisel (Fujihiro from Hida).

Also, I know it may not be ideal, but two times 7.5mm equals 15mm.

[Mike Holbrook]

So Jack maybe we are both a little perplexed regarding chisels for larger mortises. I wonder if the answer has something to do with the shape of the larger mortises? Most of the mortises for cabinets and furniture tend to be longer and thinner compared to the wider mortises I have seen in timber framing. The Mukomachi can be designed to fit the specific width of mortises for cabinets and furniture. A chisel designed to fit the entire width of some of the timber joints I have seen might be to heavy to pick up. Barr Specialty Tools is a well respected maker of forged framing chisels here in the US. The largest Barr framing chisel is 17 1/2" x 2". Anything larger than that might get a little unwieldy.

[David Weaver]

I would suggest an inexpensive western vintage firmer chisel or a smaller framing mortise chisel. I've bought two tataki nomi, one I haven't used enough yet to know much about it (i'm pretty sure it's good, but I wouldn't have bought it just to use a couple of times on a bench). The other is a 24mm imai framing chisel from hida, and to be honest, a PS&W laminated vintage chisel that I have holds up at least as well as it does in hardwood and is FAR faster to sharpen (because it can be ground), and it was $20, less than a fifth of the imai, which I think I still have and will never be able to sell because of how many times I've dumped on it here.

You've mentioned that you don't plan on doing mortises of this size often, which is an even better reason to get a vintage chisel that can be ground and that is inexpensive. I'd save that money for a fine mortise chisel in a smaller cabinetmaker's size and go cheap for this case - there's a reason that there aren't many standard bench chisel sized mortise chisels in that size. In addition, the smaller bench size chisels just aren't long enough to productively do those mortices. If they are not too deep, sure, you could do them with a oire or one of the specialty chisels with gradual sides, but you would get through them faster with an old firmer or small framing chisel.

I wouldn't spend the money on a barr framer for it, either, it's just not going to be that much better than a vintage chisel. The small vintage heavy chisels are about the size of tataki nomi, and you use them the same way japanese chisels are intended to be used (by grasping the handle of the chisel). Just my opinion, I've been there and spent the money and used both to mortise maple and beech plane bodies.

As far as the sides go, if you get a chisel that is trapezoidal, it will have only the slightest trapezoid shape. 70 degree sides will be much angle to be of much help. Better than a dovetail chisel, but not as good as a flat sided firmer/framer or a traditional mortise chisel.

[Jack Curtis]

So Jack maybe we are both a little perplexed regarding chisels for larger mortises. I wonder if the answer has something to do with the shape of the larger mortises? Most of the mortises for cabinets and furniture tend to be longer and thinner compared to the wider mortises I have seen in timber framing. The Mukomachi can be designed to fit the specific width of mortises for cabinets and furniture. A chisel designed to fit the entire width of some of the timber joints I have seen might be to heavy to pick up. Barr Specialty Tools is a well respected maker of forged framing chisels here in the US. The largest Barr framing chisel is 17 1/2" x 2". Anything larger than that might get a little unwieldy.

I'm not perplexed in any significant way, mainly because I don't really care why holes > 18mm may not be called mortises, just use an Atsui Nomi or Tataki as needed. :)

[Jack Curtis]

...As far as the sides go, if you get a chisel that is trapezoidal, it will have only the slightest trapezoid shape. 70 degree sides will be much angle to be of much help. Better than a dovetail chisel, but not as good as a flat sided firmer/framer or a traditional mortise chisel.

Based on my experience with several different types of mortising chisels, vintage to English pigsticker to Japanese, straight sided and not, curved bevel and straight, I can say with certainty that the trapezoidal shaped Japanese mortise chisels are superior for cutting mortises by hand, faster and crisper, a pure joy to use.

[David Weaver]

Neither cuts mortises any faster or cleaner than the other. I've used them all, too. There's a big difference in cost, though, and one that doesn't make any sense to pay if it's for a chisel that will be used on one project.

Unless someone has a preference to have the japanese chisel regardless of the cost difference just to have it, that's fine, but there is no such speed superiority.

[Mike Holbrook]

I probably named this post badly and got a little off subject. I am just trying to understand what the various Japanese chisel types are designed to do. I was having a little trouble figuring out why mortise chisels seemed to stop at relatively small sizes and picked the 5/8" size to discuss because my bench plans call for a good many 5/8" and larger mortises. I think the answer is there just isn't much need for larger sizes because larger mortises are not used in most cabinets or furniture. It just so happens that the bench and sawbench plans I am working on do call for larger mortises. I generally try to buy tools I have plans to use in the near future. In this case I think I need to look past the first few projects I have planned and focus on tools for the cabinets and furniture I plan to build with the bench and sawbench.

David your thoughts make sense to me. I have read other threads where posters who purchased specific Japanese hitting or striking chisels found they do not get much use. I think I understand why now.

The Japanese do make more types of chisels than are commonly made here in the US. Tools from Japan's store lists eight different types of Ouchi oire-nomi for example. A person could go broke just buying one of each type Japanese chisel to try. There seem to be two main approaches to buying chisels: 1)buy specifically designed chisels for specific work 2) buy a set of bench/oire-nomi chisels with popular sizes and learn to use the one type chisel for most/all work. The plethora of Japanese Oire-nomi designs seems to offer various compromise chisel types again in an attempt to better address specific wood workers specific work.

[David Weaver]

The Japanese do make more types of chisels than are commonly made here in the US. Tools from Japan's store lists eight different types of Ouchi oire-nomi for example. A person could go broke just buying one of each type Japanese chisel to try. There seem to be two main approaches to buying chisels: 1)buy specifically designed chisels for specific work 2) buy a set of bench/oire-nomi chisels with popular sizes and learn to use the one type chisel for most/all work. The plethora of Japanese Oire-nomi designs seems to offer various compromise chisel types again in an attempt to better address specific wood workers specific work.

In the end, you can go either way and you'll be able to do excellent work. Pick one and go that way, and then cut your brain off from worrying about if something else would've been better.

I bought the bench chisels, but also had dovetail chisels. I could use the bench chisels without anything else, and any specialty chisel I'd need (fishtail or whatever), I could make quickly in the shop out of old chisels or O1 bar stock.

George made a good point long ago about fishtail chisels, for example, that you hammer the end of a bar and it fans out and you have a fishtail chisel. It's senseless to spend big money on stuff like that because it's never going to be used for anything but light work.

[Mike Holbrook]

Stu made a little different suggestion but similar. He suggested selecting a few chisels: bench, mortise and paring and then designing or learning to work to fit the tools. Like making dovetails to match chisel sizes and the story board approach to design layouts. I think this is a good approach to start with as it allows me to try three different types of chisels but does not heavily invest me in one design I might find later does not fit my work/style.

[Jim Koepke]

I think this is a good approach to start with as it allows me to try three different types of chisels but does not heavily invest me in one design I might find later does not fit my work/style.

This sounds like it could start another debate:

What comes first, finding a chisel for the job or finding the job for the chisel? :eek:

jtk

[Jack Curtis]

Neither cuts mortises any faster or cleaner than the other. I've used them all, too. There's a big difference in cost, though, and one that doesn't make any sense to pay if it's for a chisel that will be used on one project.

Unless someone has a preference to have the japanese chisel regardless of the cost difference just to have it, that's fine, but there is no such speed superiority.

I disagree. With everything you've said. Now you may not want to pay for Japanese chisels, I understand they're much more expensive; but to me the performance is worth it. And not only have I tried many types of mortising chisels, I still own them all, including a full set of pigstickers. It's the Japanese chisels I use, the others lay about taking up space.

These are mortising chisels, NOT dovetail, NOT bench. Of course one could make chisels; but it's very difficult, bordering on impossible without a lot of training, to replicate Japanese mortising chisels.

[David Weaver]

I wouldn't advocate making mortise and bench chisels, just the small and specialty chisels. To me, it's not a matter of whether I want to spend the money, I've already spent it (miyanaga, Imai and with Stan's help, one fabulous kiyotada)

It's the reality that no one type is any faster than another, but I can personally work faster with the ray Iles pig stickers than any other chisel because you can abuse them a little more and still keep them in shape with just a polish stone.

[Jack Curtis]

I wouldn't advocate making mortise and bench chisels, just the small and specialty chisels. To me, it's not a matter of whether I want to spend the money, I've already spent it (miyanaga, Imai and with Stan's help, one fabulous kiyotada)

It's the reality that no one type is any faster than another, but I can personally work faster with the ray Iles pig stickers than any other chisel because you can abuse them a little more and still keep them in shape with just a polish stone.

Might be a good idea to at least note the title of a thread, to wit, this one is about mortising chisels.
As to Ray Iles pricing, the smallest pigsticker is 54 lbs, which is about $84; whereas as Koyamaichi 3mm mortising chisels is $60.

[David Weaver]

There are three sizes of RI mortise chisels between $66 and $69, the highest priced (western) vs. one of the lowest priced (japanese). But that's sort of changing the subject. There is no real reason to favor one type over another for speed or accuracy. The speed is the same, the results are the same.

[Mike Holbrook]

I started the post because I was interested in the Japanese approach to chisel design. I make the assumption that currently Japanese chisel designs target more specific work than US and Canadian designs. Pre machine traditions have lasted longer in Japan. Designs in the US often follow laws of supply and demand as much/more than the specific needs of users. The low demand for hand tools in the US seems to me to have reduced availability of specifically designed hand tools and emphasized more general, multifunction tools. In the case of chisel producers like Lie-Nielsen and Lee Valley, I think we see a reawakening of interest in the manufacture of hand tools. It just seems that we are still in a place where producers of hand tools often test the market with general purpose tools before they risk manufacturing more specific tools.

As David points out there is often a better selection of specifically designed tools like mortise or striking chisels on auction sites where vintage US and Japanese tools are offered. I suspect that the large selection of Oire-nomi from Japan relates more to the current US market than demand inside Japan.

My interest in the Japanese tools is twofold. First the history is interesting and less affected, I think, by the passage of time. Secondly there are just more and older traditional hand tools made there. I am not trying to rekindle the bench vs specifically designed chisel debate. I am just trying to get a handle on what exactly the more specific chisel designs, mortise, striking, paring, detail....are typically used for.

[Jack Curtis]

There are three sizes of RI mortise chisels between $66 and $69, the highest priced (western) vs. one of the lowest priced (japanese). But that's sort of changing the subject. There is no real reason to favor one type over another for speed or accuracy. The speed is the same, the results are the same.

You brought up the cost issue. I simply responded based on published store price lists. That may have been changing the subject; but it addressed a misconception or two. I hate leaving bad info in a thread when it's so simple to correct.

[David Weaver]

You brought up the cost issue. I simply responded based on published store price lists. That may have been changing the subject; but it addressed a misconception or two. I hate leaving bad info in a thread when it's so simple to correct.

Actually, what I saw as bad info was the false pretense of superiority with japanese tools and the statement that they are faster. I could very easily be corrected by a video showing the proper use of a western mortise chisel and the proper use of a japanese chisel, timed. i could do it, but I already know what the results would be if I used both the same way.

I found Mike a decent lower cost option to get his feet wet (a used tataki nomi - it was necessary to get a mortise style chisel wider than 1/2"). He can make up his mind for himself.

I certainly have no issue with folks spending a lot on chisels or tools, I've done it, but I do it for the appreciation of the tool. The notion that kiyotada's chisel would help me make faster and more accurate mortises than a $15-$20 vintage chisel in decent shape is errant. Do I enjoy the kiyotada tataki nomi more? Of course, it is at the top of the heap in perfect for perfect's sake, but it doesn't make someone do faster or more accurate work, and it would be an exceptionally poor choice (even if it was $100 instead of what it cost) for a half dozen to a dozen large mortises.

Practical recommendations should be made first with extravagance suggested only when it is requested for its own sake.

[Mike Holbrook]

Yes, it was a great compromise David, thanks. I bought an old tataki-nomi, which David found, on an auction site. I think the chisel was in Japan, now on the way to me. That one chisel is a much easier way for me to get acquainted with another type of Japanese chisel. I decided to put off purchasing new Japanese chisels until I have a little more real world experience. I actually have decent chisels now. My interest in the Japanese chisels is partly due to the history and tradition. I do not personally believe that one type of chisel is going to dramatically change how well or fast I work. I do think there are significant design differences that will make some more pleasant and easy for me personally to use. I think Japanese chisels are designed to be easier to sharpen, which may offset the fact that the cutting edges are frequently a little harder than western chisels. I think there are clear functional design differences between Japanese paring & detail chisels and the mortise and striking chisels.

The reason I targeted mortise/striking chisels for this post is these chisels seemed to me to be obviously designed to be struck with a steel hammer which I became interested in after watching Charlesworth's and Kinshott's videos on chisel techniques. Unlike David I do not mind the sound of a hammer striking a chisel, but then they say I am half deaf ;>)

[Jim Koepke]

I do think there are significant design differences that will make some more pleasant and easy for me personally to use.

That is a very important factor in the tools one chooses.


I do not mind the sound of a hammer striking a chisel, but then they say I am half deaf ;>)

My wife thinks of me as being half deaf... Must be the other half. @¿@-

jtk

[David Weaver]

Yes, it was a great compromise David, thanks. I bought an old tataki-nomi, which David found, on an auction site. I think the chisel was in Japan, now on the way to me. That one chisel is a much easier way for me to get acquainted with another type of Japanese chisel. I decided to put off purchasing new Japanese chisels until I have a little more real world experience. I actually have decent chisels now. My interest in the Japanese chisels is partly due to the history and tradition. I do not personally believe that one type of chisel is going to dramatically change how well or fast I work. I do think there are significant design differences that will make some more pleasant and easy for me personally to use. I think Japanese chisels are designed to be easier to sharpen, which may offset the fact that the cutting edges are frequently a little harder than western chisels. I think there are clear functional design differences between Japanese paring & detail chisels and the mortise and striking chisels.

The reason I targeted mortise/striking chisels for this post is these chisels seemed to me to be obviously designed to be struck with a steel hammer which I became interested in after watching Charlesworth's and Kinshott's videos on chisel techniques. Unlike David I do not mind the sound of a hammer striking a chisel, but then they say I am half deaf ;>)

With the chisels intended to strike a tataki nomi, it's actually not too bad. It's the smaller hammers that irritate my ears, the hit with a louder higher pitch.

The miyanaga mortise chisels that I chanced into are quite nice, they are about the same at holding an edge as the ray iles chisels. Maybe a little harder and a little less tough, but if used properly, it's an even match. They are, though, not cheap chisels, and they are very small - for cabinet type work.

I struck the imai timber chisel (24 mm wide) with a 3 pound hammer. Some would say that's too much, but the hammer hisao used to cut the mortise in a dai was 6 pounds, and he strick it with authority. The PS&W chisel held up to it OK, though I know for sure I have other later PS&W chisels that wouldn't tolerate it as well. The PS&W framing chisel is a good western chisel, but I expected that it should be beaten soundly by a $110 japanese chisel, thus the disappointment and mention of it.

It is supposedly white #1, and I will probably keep it, but from this point I will probably grind it to keep the primary up. Chisels of that size in that price range ($110) don't always have a very soft backing and their cross sections are very large, and that compounds the problems when you use it to cut mortises and it chips unexpectedly. You end up having to abrade off a significant amount of mild steel to keep the edge up.

Years ago, a friend and I got a couple of chisels because we had access to a hardness tester. The chisel that he bought for himself was an iyoroi mortise chisel. It claimed 64 hardness, but the strikes averaged 61. So did a Lie Nielsen chisel. Both of use were a bit disappointed in that. Of those two, the lie nielsen mortise chisel was much tougher.

You just never know what you're going to get. Anyone skilled at cutting mortises could easily use the iyoroi chisel, regardless of whether or not it lived up to its spec of hardness, it was still plenty fit for use.

[Jack Curtis]

Actually, what I saw as bad info was the false pretense of superiority with japanese tools and the statement that they are faster. I could very easily be corrected by a video showing the proper use of a western mortise chisel and the proper use of a japanese chisel, timed. i could do it, but I already know what the results would be if I used both the same way.

I found Mike a decent lower cost option to get his feet wet (a used tataki nomi - it was necessary to get a mortise style chisel wider than 1/2"). He can make up his mind for himself.

I certainly have no issue with folks spending a lot on chisels or tools, I've done it, but I do it for the appreciation of the tool. The notion that kiyotada's chisel would help me make faster and more accurate mortises than a $15-$20 vintage chisel in decent shape is errant. Do I enjoy the kiyotada tataki nomi more? Of course, it is at the top of the heap in perfect for perfect's sake, but it doesn't make someone do faster or more accurate work, and it would be an exceptionally poor choice (even if it was $100 instead of what it cost) for a half dozen to a dozen large mortises.

Practical recommendations should be made first with extravagance suggested only when it is requested for its own sake.

Gee, why not toot your own horn? I think Mike himself suggested that a tataki would perhaps be a suitable substitute.