How to use a frame and panel for the end of a case piece?

[Ken Platt]

Folks - I am making a credenza style case which I will be using to put my new TV on top of, and all the AV stuff inside. It will be similar to this:272232 (This picture is from an FWW article, but the image is freely available at the FWW site, so I don't think there's any issue with me posting it)

The piece pictured is mostly plywood, including the top, bottom and sides. The apparent frame and panel on the side is of course solid wood on top of the plywood of the side. My piece will be all solid wood, but I really like the look of the frame and panel on the end. Problem is, of course, if I make a frame and panel, the rails of the frame will not allow the top/bottom of the case to expand, so that's a no go.

So I'm looking for suggestions on how to do this? I'm thinking there is some clever way. Or, do I just make a solid wood side and then put extra pieces on top to simulate a frame? (Somehow that idea seems unappealing, plus I guess I'd have to attach the fake rails in some way to allow movement, I guess screws from the inside with enlarged holes?)

I'd appreciate thoughts on this, or on alternative ways to dress up the otherwise somewhat boring side of the case.

Ken

[Bill Huber]

I am sure that someone will come up with a better answer but here is mine.

The top is not going to get any longer, it will just get wider so why not just use figure 8s on each end to hole the top on or the other type of table top fasteners the little Z kind of shape.
I like the Z type best, I can get them installed easier.

http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?page=784&site=ROCKLER

[Jerry Miner]

Bill's got it. Your situation is the same as attaching a tabletop to a side stretcher. There are several ways to provide a firm connection that allows the top to expand and contract:

Z-clips (aka tabletop fasteners)
Wood buttons
Figure-8 fasteners
cleats with slotted holes

[Richard Coers]

You can frame and panel both the top and bottom. Just don't use a raised panel bit. Keep the panels flush with the frame, and just have a gap all around the frame for expansion. It could be a dust catcher on the top, but solves the problem.

[Steve Baumgartner]

I must be missing the point…you wrote that the top, bottom, and sides are plywood. If that is so, they will expand and contract minimally and the seeming cross-grain of the decorative rails on the sides is not an issue.

[Bill Huber]

I must be missing the point…you wrote that the top, bottom, and sides are plywood. If that is so, they will expand and contract minimally and the seeming cross-grain of the decorative rails on the sides is not an issue.

The OP states " My piece will be all solid wood ".

[Lee Schierer]

I just made this entertainment center for my son and his wife. 272247 It is similar to your design and is made from solid wood. To support the vertical partitions you will want to build a frame inside the cabinet and below the top panel. I use poplar for internal framing as it doesn't show. For this cabinet the frame was 1 x 2 pieces. I use lap joints at the corners and for the two cross pieces that run over the vertical dividers. I attached the top to this frame with wood screws up from inside the cabinet. To attach the top there are three screws across the width on each end and two screws in the center frame pieces. The holes along the front edge are simply through holes. The screw holes in the center are elongated about 1/4" and the ones along the back are elongated about 3/8". This allows the top to move with seasonal moisture changes without splitting the top. I've made a dozen or so cabinets using this method and have never had a problem with the top.

Here's what the frame looks like.272254

[Erik Christensen]

I have made a number of cabinet cases recently with one or more exposed sides. What I have been doing is using plywood for everything (the A1 plain sawed cherry ply I get looks as good as any solid piece I could make) and on the exposed sides i have been resawing some 4/4 cherry to 1/4", rip to 1 3/4" and glue to the face of the plywood. When finished you really can't tell the difference - I know because every person who has seen it that I know understands woodworking I have asked "is that a real mission style frame & panel" and nobody has been able to answer > 3' away.

[Ken Platt]

Thanks, folks for all the ideas. Sorry it took me a couple days to respond, turned out to be a tough weekend at work.

Bill, using those tabletop fastener ideas would sure take care of the movement problem, but I'm wondering how sturdy a carcass would be with the 4 corners attached in that manner. I'm not sure how to figure that out, either. Have you seen any cabinets made in that fashion? Were they sturdy?

Richard, I like the idea of frame and panel top and bottom a lot. I think the "dustcatcher" aspect may be deal breaker as I do tend to have a dusty house (dogs, kids, etc) and I think my wife will be unhappy with that. I'm still thinking about it, though, because I have a bunch of ipe left over from deck railing construction. It's the premilled stuff with a "U" shaped cross-section (the opening of the "U" fits over the posts). Very strong stuff (the sides of the "U" are 1 " thick) and a nice mild contrast to the peruvian walnut I'm using for the rest of the cabinet.

Lee, that's a really nice cabinet, and pretty much exactly what I am going for. I'm having trouble picturing the internal frame you described - If you had any more pics, I'd like to see them, especially of the innards. The frame schematic you'd posted is great, but I'm having trouble figuring out the 3-D layout. If you had a minute to describe it in more detail, I'd be appreciative.

Erik, I don't have any particular objection to using plywood, but I'd have to purchase it, and given my, um, largish (and more importantly, space-occupying) collection of wood, further purchases of materials are being actively discouraged by, shall we say, external agencies until the current stock is at least being somewhat used up.

Ken

[Larry Browning]

What exactly is the problem with using plywood for the carcass? The top and all trim can be Solid wood. Your expansion/contraction issues will be solved. This is the primary reason for using plywood. It is certainly not economical reasons. I also believe that plywood would be structurally superior to solid wood for cabinetry.

[Von Bickley]

What exactly is the problem with using plywood for the carcass? The top and all trim can be Solid wood. Your expansion/contraction issues will be solved. This is the primary reason for using plywood. It is certainly not economical reasons. I also believe that plywood would be structurally superior to solid wood for cabinetry.

I agree with Larry......

[Ken Platt]

Like I mentioned in the part of my reply above to Erik, it's just that I have so much wood, I need to use what I have rather than buying more. If I were buying materials for this project, I would surely use plywood. I agree it makes for a nice solution. I may just not be able to make this one the way I'd initially thought.

Ken

[Larry Browning]

Ken,
You are not only going to run into issues on each end panel, but also the 2 vertical panels in the center. You will need to allow for movement all along the joint where it meets the top and bottom. Maybe you could change the grain direction of the the bottom to be the same as the vertical panels. That might work. You could then attach the top using the metal table top fasteners.
But I still think you best bet is to just bite the bullet and buy a sheet of plywood.

Here is a link to a web album of the one I made very similar to yours.
https://plus.google.com/photos/116538662290459313764/albums/5576692970497825841?banner=pwa

Hopefully you can view it.

[Sam Murdoch]

Ken, Lee's solution is your solution. The internal frame he illustrates is basically a sub top. The dimension lines in his drawing might be adding some confusion (slowed me down for a bit :)). It is a plan view of the frame. You are looking down on a 2-1/4" wide x 3/4" + thick solid wood frame. It is the interior top of the cabinet to which the vertical faces of the cabinet are attached and also, by using elongated holes through the frame the solid wood top is held down to the cabinet. The top therefore is not an integral part of the structure of the cabinet but rather a piece added after the cabinet is assembled - much like a table top to its base. Your front frame and the frame and panel ends and the back do not impede the seasonal movement of the top as they are in no way attached to the top.

The solid wood bottom of you cabinet could be panels set onto cleats fastened to the lower portions of your ends and interior divider frames. An alternative, with some careful planning and layout would be to float the bottom panels in mortises in the stiles/bottom rails of the ends and interior dividers. These 2 options assumes that the interior dividers go to the floor like the end panels. This makes for a challenging assembly process. You can also build 2 of the frames discussed above - one as the sub-top and one as the sub-base with the interior dividers set between. The bottom panels - cut to fit in each section (rather than one long bottom) can be attached to the sub-base.

OK - have I thoroughly confused you? :confused: I'm afraid I can build better than I can explain and sorry I don't have the time to provide an illustration. And, Lee - I hope I haven't misinterpreted your explanation.

[Ken Platt]

Sam, thanks. After rereading Lee's post (about 5 times - I'm a little slow) I came to the same conclusion as you that the drawing was a sub top, and I get how that fixes the problem on top. Now I'm trying to figure out how I would do the bottom, and I appreciate your ideas, although I'm still chewing on them trying to get the picture in my head. A complicating factor for the base is that I want to put the cabinet on casters (which the one pictured in the original post is, also). To hide them, I need to bring the sides down nearly to the floor, but need the bottom of the cabinet high enough off the floor to leave room for the caster under there.

I like the cleats idea, but at the moment do not see how I would be able to get cleats on the interior dividers; the interior dividers have to sit on the bottom panel, don't they? If the bottom panel is to sit on the dividers, I am not sure what the dividers attach to.

The sub base you describe, if I've got your meaning, is basically a frame and panel construction?

OK, back to the drawing board....Hopefully Lee will come by and tell us how he does his case bottom.

Ken

[Sam Murdoch]

I like the cleats idea, but at the moment do not see how I would be able to get cleats on the interior dividers; the interior dividers have to sit on the bottom panel, don't they? If the bottom panel is to sit on the dividers, I am not sure what the dividers attach to.

The sub base you describe, if I've got your meaning, is basically a frame and panel construction?

Ken

The interior dividers can be made just like the end panels and be as tall (and the back panel too for that matter). The bottom could be made up in sections rather than as one full length. Cleats would be attached to the stiles and bottom rails. The bottom panels would be attached to the cleats - dropped in from the top. As for adding casters there are plenty of options in the world of caster assemblies that fit inside the frame and are attached to the cabinet with a bracket. Always best to have all your hardware selected before you build - preferably as you design, so that your details are not afterthoughts and/or work arounds after the fact.

The sub base as I was thinking was simply another frame like the sub top - without panels. Again the bottom panels could be set in from above supported by the sub base below - rather than cleats. And yes, I'm sure Lee has this detail all worked out :). Let's hear what he has to say...

[Mike Hoyt]

So I will preface this with I still consider myself a novice to intermediate woodworker. I built the same console just as decsribed in the magazine article and it came out very well. The one thing that sticks with me about the use of plywood was to help fight the added stress from the heat output of all the components you place in it. At first I didnt think it would be that much with the front be open but I was very surprised at the heat produced by a stereo reciever, cable box even the xbox. Mine has been built for 3-4 years now and it seems every bit as flat now as when I built it.

[glenn bradley]

Bill, using those tabletop fastener ideas would sure take care of the movement problem, but I'm wondering how sturdy a carcass would be with the 4 corners attached in that manner. I'm not sure how to figure that out, either. Have you seen any cabinets made in that fashion? Were they sturdy?

As mentioned, much like a table top or the top on a dresser; the top is not a part of the framework that gives the cabinet structural strength. The top sits on top of a strong structure and is attached with figure-8's, sliding dovetails, elongated holes in pocket-holes, etc. The top isn't majorly responsible for rigidity while allowing for movement at the same time. Consider the top an attachment in your design, not a structural element (at least not totally).