bench top

[Noah Wagener]

i was wondering if it is ok to use multiple length scraps for a bench slab. Ones that don't reach the legs. I know i've read that glue is actually stronger than the bonding of wood fibers.

i have also read that front aprons are a bad idea but i didn't understand why. i can't afford a vise so i thought an apron with holes coupled with a holdfast would work for holding boards vertically.

[Jim Matthews]

It should work, even if it's not likely to remain perfectly flat.

I've seen really good furniture come out of shops with really crude tools.
If all you have is shorter pieces, consider making the top a dual lamination -
both along the length and in thickness.

A couple of stout 3/4 plywood sheets sandwiched between longer boards on the top and bottom should be Aces.

******

My bench looks something like the Shaker style benches you've seen elsewhere -
with a leg vise on the front left corner, and a sliding deadman to carry longer boards.

I have what amounts to an apron on my bench - it's thicker than the bench top, at nearly 5".
I can still clamp things to the front as this overhangs the base beneath - all the way around.

Were it any longer in the Up/Down dimension, clamping things to the front edge would be difficult.

The problem with "deep" aprons as on the Nicholson style bench is that you can't use bar clamps - but holdfasts can be easily adapted.

[Jim Koepke]

i have also read that front aprons are a bad idea but i didn't understand why.

To those who like a front apron, not having one is a bad idea.

A front apron can be useful. If too big, it can get in the way for some.

A front apron of not too great a depth with a crochet and holdfasts can work well.

jtk

[John Sanford]

i have also read that front aprons are a bad idea but i didn't understand why. i can't afford a vise so i thought an apron with holes coupled with a holdfast would work for holding boards vertically.
Front aprons are troublesome because they make it more difficult to use clamps that reach further into the bench than the thickness of the apron. Behind the apron, the workbench top is much thinner, leaving a void that makes it very hard for the "lower" jaw of the clamp to find a purchase. To compensate, one either uses random pieces of wood as spacers, or you have to use holdfasts only, or ...

This doesn't mean one can't work on a bench with an apron, merely that it takes a different approach. The classic English "Nicholson" bench (http://oregonwoodworker.blogspot.com/search/label/Nicholson%20workbench)seems to be ALL apron (not really), and they seem to have gotten by quite well for a few centuries using 'em.

[Winton Applegate]

Did i hear you say inexpensive work holding ?
Try this style
http://www.amazon.com/Japanese-Woodworking-Tools-Tradition-Spirit/dp/0941936465/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1380761951&sr=8-1&keywords=toshio+odate

I (http://www.amazon.com/Japanese-Woodworking-Tools-Tradition-Spirit/dp/0941936465/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1380761951&sr=8-1&keywords=toshio+odateI) am not kidding. I have a lot of respect and admiration for Mr. Odate.
And you will be a lot more flexible after a few months of this.
I made my planing beams out of 2x4s turned up on edge. I have three. Two eight feet long and the more portable short beam. I used them to build my Klausz bench. For planing and some clamping. I also used a Recored rails in the way vise but that was on my welding table part of the time. If you also happen to have a couple of matching Work Mate folding benches as I do then you will be all set clamping the planing beam in those for some types of work.
See also my post in the vise thread where i put a Bessey clamp through the planing beam. Thirty dollars and that is super handy.

[Winton Applegate]

http://i801.photobucket.com/albums/yy298/noydb1/Thisisbetterthanthat_zps7279432f.jpg (http://s801.photobucket.com/user/noydb1/media/Thisisbetterthanthat_zps7279432f.jpg.html)

http://i801.photobucket.com/albums/yy298/noydb1/Planingbeam_zpsdeda27b9.jpg (http://s801.photobucket.com/user/noydb1/media/Planingbeam_zpsdeda27b9.jpg.html)

http://i801.photobucket.com/albums/yy298/noydb1/YeOld2x4benchplaningbeam_zps86006a1f.jpg (http://s801.photobucket.com/user/noydb1/media/YeOld2x4benchplaningbeam_zps86006a1f.jpg.html)

http://i801.photobucket.com/albums/yy298/noydb1/Squarethatedge_zpsac0ebc86.jpg (http://s801.photobucket.com/user/noydb1/media/Squarethatedge_zpsac0ebc86.jpg.html)

http://i801.photobucket.com/albums/yy298/noydb1/Undersidedetails_zpse9f45d76.jpg (http://s801.photobucket.com/user/noydb1/media/Undersidedetails_zpse9f45d76.jpg.html)

[Jack Curtis]

Did i hear you say inexpensive work holding ?
Try this style
http://www.amazon.com/Japanese-Woodworking-Tools-Tradition-Spirit/dp/0941936465/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1380761951&sr=8-1&keywords=toshio+odate

I (http://www.amazon.com/Japanese-Woodworking-Tools-Tradition-Spirit/dp/0941936465/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1380761951&sr=8-1&keywords=toshio+odateI) am not kidding. I have a lot of respect and admiration for Mr. Odate.
And you will be a lot more flexible after a few months of this.
I made my planing beams out of 2x4s turned up on edge. I have three. Two eight feet long and the more portable short beam. I used them to build my Klausz bench. For planing and some clamping. I also used a Recored rails in the way vise but that was on my welding table part of the time. If you also happen to have a couple of matching Work Mate folding benches as I do then you will be all set clamping the planing beam in those for some types of work....

Yeah, me, too, although only a single 6' beam. I copied my girlfriend's great idea of mounting it on the back of my bench with 3 carriage bolts and propping one end with a bench slave. I've got a single stop and I never have to clamp, gravity's my friend.

[Pat Barry]

There is no issue with multiple length scraps for a bench top. Just laminate them together and voila you can have a bench top. Of course it will help immensely if they are straight, and jointed so the glue joints are well bonded. Build it a few strips at a time and progressively.

[Winton Applegate]

Some how two of my photos are no longer showing here so here goes again
http://i801.photobucket.com/albums/yy298/noydb1/Squarethatedge_zps5d374a18.jpg (http://s801.photobucket.com/user/noydb1/media/Squarethatedge_zps5d374a18.jpg.html)

http://i801.photobucket.com/albums/yy298/noydb1/Thisisbetterthanthat_zps7279432f.jpg (http://s801.photobucket.com/user/noydb1/media/Thisisbetterthanthat_zps7279432f.jpg.html)
That's so "awesome" now that I put them here they are showing in the original post.
I'm tired now I got to rest.

[Adam Maxwell]

i have also read that front aprons are a bad idea but i didn't understand why. i can't afford a vise so i thought an apron with holes coupled with a holdfast would work for holding boards vertically.

Absolutely, and it works well. The apron on my bench is 9" tall, under the top. I use holdfasts and a crochet for edge jointing, and have been very happy with it. No face vise, tail vise, or shoulder vise.

[Winton Applegate]

Jack,

I am glad we are brothers in beams. I can't quite picture the bolting to the bench idea. Any chance of a photo. I have mine in PhotoBucket and then copy the "IMG" from the list of "Links to Share This Photo" into the text of my post to get the photo to show up here in SawMill.

[Jack Curtis]

Jack,

I am glad we are brothers in beams. I can't quite picture the bolting to the bench idea. Any chance of a photo. I have mine in PhotoBucket and then copy the "IMG" from the list of "Links to Share This Photo" into the text of my post to get the photo to show up here in SawMill. ...

Well, seems to have worked. These photos aren't of my bench, but mine is more or less the same. Note that in the horizontal position, first photo, the beam sits about 1/8" lower than the bench so it also works as a sticking board setup. In the second, the beam is raised way too high, for illustration purposes.

272236 272237

[Tom Vanzant]

Jack, that would be Pam's bench, right? Are you folks in Arkansas now?

[Jack Curtis]

Jack, that would be Pam's bench, right? Are you folks in Arkansas now?

Right. No, we're not in Arkansas, but I am real sensitive these days about how much real information I reveal online. We have been thinking of moving to the ark.

[Noah Wagener]

I apologize for taking so long to reply to this thread. Totally forgot i had posted questions here.

Well i guess the question of using lengths that didn't span the full length was a silly one. It just looks odd to me seeing a butt joint not over a joist.

Winton, i was not able to find the vise post you referred to. Is that "Bessey" clamp a brand of f-clamp? I think i will copy your design. I think maybe i will incase both jaws in wood and then clamp the "vise" to to the top of the bench.

Are those bolts in addition to glue and are they to help twisting? My bench top is made form old doouglas fir joists ripped in half and looks pretty similar to your planing planks. It has the shallow grooves like yours too. I did that because i did not have the will to plane the bottom as there was quite a variety in thickness after my shabby sawing and edge planing. The grooves are to sit on leg stretchers.

I think i'll avoid the apron for now. Chriis Schwarz seems very adamant that everything be in one plane on the front of a bench. What are some typical clamp jobs on the top? I have yet to clamp anything that way other than a 2x 4 so that i could then clamp things vertically to it. A makeshift vise if you will.

THanks for all the info. I am really grateful people are so generous to help.

[Winton Applegate]

Well i guess the question of using lengths that didn't span the full length was a silly one. It just looks odd to me seeing a butt joint not over a joist.


Nah, it isn't my thing but be sure to look through many of the other threads here on the Neander forum.


Many of your questions have already been addressed RECENTLY.
Such as this thread/short lengths to make up a bench top seems to work well.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?208143-Scandinavian-Vise/page5 (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?208143-Scandinavian-Vise/page5)

Or do you mean some thing different than that ?


Here is the Bessey clamp (yes Bessey is a brand of clamps for woodworking AND others for metal working/ Pro welding etc.)
I got mine at Home Depot but has been a decade since then.
This is about the size I used though get a bigger one if you can find it and I paid about the same amount, $35, back then.

http://www.amazon.com/Bessey-TG5-512--12-Inch-Heavy-Tradesmen/dp/B00002245H/ref=sr_1_15?ie=UTF8&qid=1384665800&sr=8-15&keywords=bessey+clamps (http://www.amazon.com/Bessey-TG5-512--12-Inch-Heavy-Tradesmen/dp/B00002245H/ref=sr_1_15?ie=UTF8&qid=1384665800&sr=8-15&keywords=bessey+clamps)



Are those bolts in addition to glue and are they to help twisting?
Heck no I don't want to help the twisting I want to eliminate it.

:)
I know what you mean.
No I used no glue, just bolts, mostly I had fun machining the counter sinks in the wood and the ends of the all thread, facing the ends precisely on my metal lathe so they all came out exactly flush and did not extend beyond the side of the nuts.
I can't really say it is done for a REASON . . . I just did it that way for something to do.
read or reread this

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?210130-Dimensioning-wood-for-benchtop-lamination-how-flat-is-flat (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?210130-Dimensioning-wood-for-benchtop-lamination-how-flat-is-flat)



What are some typical clamp jobs on the top?
I will leave that to others to comment on.
I don't have much use for , say, a hold fast or the other round hole clamp fixture things.
I suppose cutting dovetails with a chisel but if you jeweler saw the waste out and then just shoulder press the chisel downward then clamp in the vise for final precision parring, or use Derek's blue tape and just cut them perfect the first time, it eliminates a lot of banging away with a mallet.

The square dogs and tail vise do most of my top surface clamping or just a stop or two built into the top of the bench to push agin.

Worth watching DVD's of trusted pros such as Frank Klausz to see when they clamp. He just uses a basic smallish F clamp for cutting softer wood drawer dovetailed sides.

[Noah Wagener]

Adam,

Is a crochet that kind of winged shaped thing on the front left of benches? You just wedge a board in it and it will hold without anything supporting underneath? Does it mar the work piece?

do you use a holdfast like a front vise for sawing tenons, dovetails, etc.?

thanks

[Noah Wagener]

Winton, i was referring to the thread you originally reffered too. I think that one you linked must be it as you explain what you did with the Bessey clamp in that thread. From what i gather you took the jaw without the screw off and then slid it back on on the other side of the beam? I wish i would have read that thread earlier as all i accomplished was making 2 f clamps more cumbersome.

275253

i don't know why i thought it would be handy to be able to clamp a clamp to the bench top. Oh well.

Any idea what kind of wood that is on the outer jaw? I think it came from decking as it had that grey weathered look. I assumed it was cedar but it doesn't have that smell when i planed and sawed it. It is feather light and super dark pinkish purple. Here are some more pics:275254275255

maybe you need a closer look?:

275256

[Adam Maxwell]

Yes, a crochet is a wooden hook, mainly for edge planing. The piece requires support underneath unless you've added a screw to the crochet. I use it with holdfasts.

Re: tenons and dovetails, I use a bench top twin-screw vise, and I have a crude end vise for resawing.