Less is more

[Mike Holbrook]

I was posting on the Coping vs Fret saw thread and got off topic so I thought I would continue the line of thought in a new post. We all have to make tool choices anytime we do woodworking. I have been studying joint construction using minimal hand tools which seems to be a constant theme among those who enjoy working with hand tools. I am fascinated by the work some accomplished craftsmen do with minimal tools.....

I was searching Frank Klausz videos on making joints to further my education. I discovered a free video on Popular Woodworking, Three-Minuet Dovetails with Frank Klaus. Frank cuts the dovetails for one drawer corner with two full size bow saws and nothing else. He cuts out waste with what looks like a 3/8" blade in a full size bow saw. Yes, he does it in less than 3 minuets. If Frank can do it we should be able to too right? MAYBE NOT! Still if Frank can do it with those full size saws and larger blades I have hope that I may be able to learn to do the job with a Gramercy Turning bow saw. Another interesting article was in Schwarz's blog The Theory of Chisel Monogamy. Chris reports he has found that he can do almost all of his chisel work with a 1/2" chisel. He mentions 1/4, 3/8 and 3/4" chisels but claims he rarely uses them and confides that he sold off all his 1/8" increment sets. I see a pattern here. It seems that the guys who do woodworking more frequently learn to develop more skills with specific tools and prefer working with the tool they know better vs the "right", "best" tool for the job.

I am not here to jump on a fashionable band wagon and argue over using a minimal vs larger set of tools quite the opposite. My interest is in techniques, specifically the hand & eye skills that enable us to employ any tool to its fullest advantage. We often talk a great deal about specific tools but leave discussion of techniques at "practice". I am thinking about starting with Frank Klausz's video Hand Tools, Tuning & Using Chisels, Planes and Saws. I am most interested in "Practice exercises, from paring with a chisel to laying out dovetails with a saw, that will build your confidence and competence with hand tools." I am interested in developing skills and techniques that will allow me to work faster, especially skills that reduce the time spent doing layout and get tools in my hand that actually work the wood. The idea of skipping all the careful marking of dovetails in favor of spending a "little" time learning to do the layout by eye with a handsaw is a good example. Story sticks is another method I plan to try out...I realize that just doing projects builds experience but I want to learn more efficient methods so I do not develop overly complicated techniques. Any suggestions regarding efficient techniques and exercises to develop them are appreciated.

[Chuck Nickerson]

The idea of having/using fewer tools in order to know them better has validity; but it interfers with the not-so-latent tool collector in me.

For a pure practice exercise check out the Gotschall Block. It can be done just with a chisel, or with a chisel and backsaw, and on up.
Ron Herman's "Joinery Challenge" DVD is another pure practice exercise.

My need to be doing useful exercises has led me to turn Chris Schwarz's boarded chest project into a boarded box exercise.
For about two bdft of wood I had practice handtool joinery all day long and have items to donate to children's groups at the holidays.

[Jim Koepke]

How many chicken coops, rabbit hutches or other animal shelters does Chris Schwarz build when he isn't making tool chests? Does he build garden gates, fences and arbors for climbing vines? Sure, they could all be done with just one chisel and one saw. For me, it is easier to use larger and smaller chisels as the need arises. Just like it is easier to use different saws for different aspects of joinery.

Now let us contrast him to another well known worker of wood, Roy Underhill. Roy doesn't seem to have a plethora of tools laying about his shop, but he always has something different, especially suited for the job at hand.

If someone wants to have only 4 chisels in their shop, that is fine. There is also nothing wrong with me having more chisels in one size than others have chisels in their full set.

My current project has me happy that besides the 1/8" chisel in my shop there is also a 3mm chisel. They are close, but the 1/8" is just a hair bigger than what is needed for the work at hand.

There will be pictures when it is done.

Besides the other tools being used on this job, there are two 1/4" chisels. They have slightly different bevels and other features. Not necessary, though it is convenient.

jtk

[Jim Matthews]

A companion read is Jim Tolpin's "The new traditional woodworker".

Jim is not only a teacher, but also a maker of fine furniture.
I note that he has held onto his bandsaw, even with his purposeful shift
to using fewer tools.

I don't suppose he's covering any new ground, as FK is very thorough,
but the photographs in this text are very new and make it easy to
work out the details of the passage they illustrate.

[Tony Wilkins]

After starting the woodworking journey with reading The New Traditional Woodworker, The Anarchist Toolchest, and Made By Hand - each with there own but pretty similar tool lists - I started with what I thought we be a pretty minimal list. Sellers seems to have an even more basic tool set. I've basically stuck too it. I have a small drawknife that wasn't on anybodies list. One area I decide to splurge was in chisels. I know that if I learn to use them well I can do a lot of things. Having a full set seems wise to me. I guess I'm following the Adam Cherubini model as he's had several blogs on just how many chisels the 18th century craftsman.

[Jim Koepke]

I guess I'm following the Adam Cherubini model as he's had several blogs on just how many chisels the 18th century craftsman.

There is a large difference between an 18th century craftsman and a hobbyist of today.

In the 18th century every tool purchase likely had to be weighed against the ability for a craftsman to feed his family and how much money the tool would earn. For the hobbyist of today the dynamics are somewhat different. It is usually based on how much we can convince our significant other to allow us to spend on something we may or may not need.

Today, spending a few dollars on a tool that isn't needed will not cause my family to go hungry.

jtk

[Don Dorn]

While I certainly respect Schwarz and have learned a lot reading him, I've been following Paul Sellers more than about anyone else lately. He points out that with the following, you can get most of what you need done.

Spokeshave,
#4 Smoother
Chisel set
Coping saw
Ruler
Router plane
Dovetail saw
Mallet
Scrapers
Marking gauge
Combination square,
Knife
Sharpening stones and strop
saw set
Mill file
4 in 1 file
Bevel gauge

I did notice that he doesn't ever say that all you ever need, he simply says that the modest set can take you a great distance. Lately, I've been a bit interested in the English Woodworker but am also a fan of Adam Cherubini and as a result have been using more cut nails in my work as well.

[Tony Wilkins]

...For the hobbyist of today the dynamics are somewhat different. It is usually based on how much we can convince our significant other to allow us to spend on something we may or may not need...

jtk

Ah yes, but both are dangerous decisions to make as both my decide what we get to eat ;)

[Tony Wilkins]

While I certainly respect Schwarz and have learned a lot reading him, I've been following Paul Sellers more than about anyone else lately. He points out that with the following, you can get most of what you need done.

Spokeshave,
#4 Smoother
Chisel set
Coping saw
Ruler
Router plane
Dovetail saw
Mallet
Scrapers
Marking gauge
Combination square,
Knife
Sharpening stones and strop
saw set
Mill file
4 in 1 file
Bevel gauge

I did notice that he doesn't ever say that all you ever need, he simply says that the modest set can take you a great distance. Lately, I've been a bit interested in the English Woodworker but am also a fan of Adam Cherubini and as a result have been using more cut nails in my work as well.

One thing I noticed about what Sellers says is that his tool list assumes dimensioned lumber. That is part of the reason he doesn't have a try plane and probably some of the other tools that others have. He also does a lot more with tools than I'm capable of. I'm too old and impatient to wait for skill when I can just buy a tool ;)

[Jim Koepke]

While I certainly respect Schwarz and have learned a lot reading him, I've been following Paul Sellers more than about anyone else lately. He points out that with the following, you can get most of what you need done.

Spokeshave,
#4 Smoother
Chisel set
Coping saw
Ruler
Router plane
Dovetail saw
Mallet
Scrapers
Marking gauge
Combination square,
Knife
Sharpening stones and strop
saw set
Mill file
4 in 1 file
Bevel gauge

I did notice that he doesn't ever say that all you ever need, he simply says that the modest set can take you a great distance. Lately, I've been a bit interested in the English Woodworker but am also a fan of Adam Cherubini and as a result have been using more cut nails in my work as well.

Yes, but it is also nice to have:

Hollow & round planes
Combination planes
Rabbet planes
Shoulder planes
Side rabbet planes
Different rasps
#3, 5, 7 or 8 planes along with a lot of other sizes.
Mortising chisels
A lot of gouges
Various block planes
Bits and braces
egg beater drill and bits
And so many things that do not come to mind at the moment.

No one has given me a great reason to limit the variety of tools used in my shop. For me the best reason to keep accumulating tools is eight grandchildren who may all someday want some of grandpa's tools they used when they were working with him in his shop.

jtk

[Jim Matthews]

One thing I noticed about what Sellers says is that his tool list assumes dimensioned lumber. That is part of the reason he doesn't have a try plane and probably some of the other tools that others have. He also does a lot more with tools than I'm capable of. I'm too old and impatient to wait for skill when I can just buy a tool ;)

I stood the 9 day introductory course, back in May.
It was discussed that while possible to dimension all lumber by hand in a home shop,
that would bring the pace of instruction to a halt in a classroom setting.

Given the cost of lunchbox planers and tabletop jointers, it's inexpensive for a hobbyist to farm out the "Donkey work" to machines.
That leaves more time for the fun parts.

Sometimes it's faster to do it by hand, if the piece in question is small - dependent on the wood species.

Many of us setting up our lumber stash have the good fortune to buy well-seasoned lumber that's already S2S.
No need for either a power planer, or try plane in that case.

I think that hobbyist should spend a little extra at the lumberyard to get choice boards dimensioned,
and forego buying a planer altogether. I'm on the fence about jointers.

[Jim Matthews]

There are loads of tools available in the New Legacy classrooms, including many on both the lists above.

The point is that you can get started, and progress quite far with the basics shown.
I would not say the projects we made in the 9 day course were complicated.

Most of the things I make aren't all that involved, either.

[Don Dorn]

Yes, but it is also nice to have:

Hollow & round planes
Combination planes
Rabbet planes
Shoulder planes
Side rabbet planes
Different rasps
#3, 5, 7 or 8 planes along with a lot of other sizes.
Mortising chisels
A lot of gouges
Various block planes
Bits and braces
egg beater drill and bits
And so many things that do not come to mind at the moment.

No one has given me a great reason to limit the variety of tools used in my shop. For me the best reason to keep accumulating tools is eight grandchildren who may all someday want some of grandpa's tools they used when they were working with him in his shop.

jtk

With the exception of the hollows and rounds, I too have those things and use them often. My point was simply that for a person just starting, they don't need to buy into the lure of needing thousands of $ of tools. Over time, we all accumulate and like you, I have no intention of getting rid of any to see what I can do with the least.

[Jim Koepke]

Ah yes, but both are dangerous decisions to make as both my decide what we get to eat ;)

Or if we are dining with our friend the dog. :eek:

jtk

[Chris Parks]

The road to tool minimisation is skill and the apprenticeships of five years or more taught those skills. As hobbyists most find acquiring a similar level of skill is neither practical or needed and those we admire on YT mostly acquired their skills as part of their apprenticeship and use them every day as part of their vocation. The hobbyist will mostly not get to that level unfortunately. Paul Sellers in one of his videos admits he was one of the last to acquire his skills through an apprenticeship in his area IIRC??

[Mike Holbrook]

The question I am asking is not about reducing ones tool set to some minimal size, although I can understand why some might have that urge. I am more interested in which hand tools can do the work the most efficiently in my hands. Reading Tage Frid on hand saws, he states that he would never use any backsaw. I don't take this as an inditement against backsaws but as proof of just how good Tage was with bow saws. Unless I get so good with bow saws that a I find I don't need my backsaws I would not consider parting with them or any of my hand saws. I have seen Frank Klausz whip out 3 minuet dovetails with bow saws and backsaws.

My fascination with hand tools has more to do with the additional skill set the person wielding them needs in order to produce the sort of results that a machine achieves simply when it is "set up" correctly. It might be fair to say I am less interested in fiddling with the settings on machines and more interested in mastering the dexterity necessary to achieve results with less complicated more versatile hand tools.

[Sean Hughto]

Yeah, I'm sure there were a lot of painters who would have been great if they had just had fewer pigments and brushes. Lots of composers hampered by too many notes to choose from. Lots of writers who could have written masterpieces if not for the availability of too many words. In all seriousness, does anyone truly believe that they are being held back in their productions of exceptional furniture by having a few extra chisels, or saws, or planes, or what have you. It' just a silly premise if you asked me.

[David Weaver]

We need only to look as far as George. Having a serious tool problem that spans multiple types of work has never seemed to hinder him.

[Mike Holbrook]

I ordered a copy of Ron Herman's Joinery Challenge. Schwarz had a downloadable video called Mastering Hand Tools that I now have. I also ordered Hand Tools: Tuning & Using Chisels, Planes & Saws by Frank Klausz. I have been working with Ron Herman's Handsaws Tune-up, Setup & More, Chisel Techniques for Precision Joinery with David Charlesworth and two videos by Jim Kingshott Dovetails and Mortise & Tenons. These should keep me busy for a while and there are actual exercises in some of them.

The Gotschall Block seems more like a layout exercise and brain teaser puzzle. There are projects in The New Traditional Woodworker by Tolpin, The Anarchist Tool Chest by Schwarz and The Jointer and Cabinet Maker by Anon, Schwarz & Moskowitz, all of which I have. The Jointer and Cabinet Maker is designed to be a group of projects to teach an apprentice hand tool work. The projects seem a little dated as the book was written from another smaller book written in England in 1839 but Schwarz throws a fresher perspective on the work.

[Darren Brewster]

Yeah, I'm sure there were a lot of painters who would have been great if they had just had fewer pigments and brushes. Lots of composers hampered by too many notes to choose from. Lots of writers who could have written masterpieces if not for the availability of too many words. In all seriousness, does anyone truly believe that they are being held back in their productions of exceptional furniture by having a few extra chisels, or saws, or planes, or what have you. It' just a silly premise if you asked me.

Certainly no one in this thread has claimed to believe that, nor does anyone with the minimal tool lists that are being quoted to my knowledge. It is a pretty silly premise, but seems to be your own.


We need only to look as far as George. Having a serious tool problem that spans multiple types of work has never seemed to hinder him.

Who claimed that it hindered him?

[Derek Cohen]

Three chisels??? Where's the fun in that?!!!

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Sean Hughto]

[QUOTE=Darren Brewster;2162837]Certainly no one in this thread has claimed to believe that, nor does anyone with the minimal tool lists that are being quoted to my knowledge. It is a pretty silly premise, but seems to be your own.
QUOTE]

Well, the OP said: "I am not here to jump on a fashionable band wagon and argue over using a minimal vs larger set of tools ..." which suggested to me that there are people somewhere arguing this. If that's wrong, great.

[george wilson]

For everyone's info: Roy's "shop" is a set on a sound stage. It is a bunch of props. He brings in whatever tools he needs to show how to do different jobs. That is why you don't see a lot of tools laying around in his "shop".

My plethora of tools DOES hinder me: I have no place to put all of them!! Then,I spend too much time trying to find them!!:)

Back in the 60's,when I had little money,I did have just a few tools to make guitars,lutes,and harpsichords. I did most all of my planing with a Stanley low angle block plane. I did have a table saw(which I still have,a Clausing),a 14" bandsaw,and an old 6" Boice Crane jointer who someone had taken an angle grinder to at some point-on the tables!! But,hand tools were pretty minimal. It was o.k.,because I was only making guitars at the time. I had a Mexican friend who played guitar. Even with these few tools,he would get all excited when I took out a different tool. He'd exclaim:" Oh,George,you have too much technique!!" He told me that in Mexico,they had to first make a knife,then make the guitar with the knife.

I have seen a Japanese WWII carpenter's outfit,where the plane had no blade. A chisel was used as the blade. This to save money and space. I'm not sure how they planed wood with a knife in Mexico!!:)

When I was the musical instrument maker in Williamsburg,we did not have a huge number of tools,and no machines,obviously. I have posted many pictures of some of the things I made there with simple means. You can also Google"George Wilson Harpsichord",and see the film we made in 1974,of making a spinet and a violin with a limited number of hand tools back then.

These days,I have by now made many tools,and have spend decades in the Pa. flea markets,so I've accumulated many tools,many of which I seldom use. I'm just a tool pig by now.

When I look in the Stewart MacDonald guitar tool catalog,I see endless gadgets they have come up with for making guitars. Maybe if I spent $10,000.00 on their tools,I could make a guitar!!

I think,why worry about how many tools you have or don't have,and argue about them? If you like to collect tools,do it,even if you don't really need them,they are an inspiration when you go into your shop,if nothing else. This hobby is to enjoy yourself,after all,not to fret over how many tools it might take to make a given item. I've done it both ways in my long career,and still got stuff made.

[Darren Brewster]

Well, the OP said: "I am not here to jump on a fashionable band wagon and argue over using a minimal vs larger set of tools ..." which suggested to me that there are people somewhere arguing this. If that's wrong, great.

Ahh, I see your point. I'm sure someone, somewhere is arguing that position, but I have a hard time believing that there is a fashionable bandwagon about it.

[george wilson]

Along the "less is more" line,we had a gunsmith years ago in the museum. He only wanted everyone to use 1 file,because that's all he had when he was young. He was always trying to prove he could make something out of nothing. One time,he wasted a lot of time hand sawing and filing out main springs for flintlocks from an old car spring he found in a junkyard. The springs he made kept breaking. Eventually,it was learned that he was using a spring made from AIR hardening steel,and quenching it in WATER!!

Another time,he made an anvil pattern from wood,and got the ship yard to cast some anvils from it. The anvils were too soft. He took them back,and the guy asked him how hard he needed the anvils to be. Instead of being able to give an intelligent answer of about 52 Rockwell C.,and being too proud to ASK anyone about hardness scales(I doubt he knew they existed),He messed around and found a knife,which he took to the shipyard. The guy got his info from the knife.

Instead of doing all this stuff,I THINK it MIGHT have been better for the gunsmith to LEARN something about tool steels,then,go ahead and use as few tools as he wanted!!:) This could be applied to a lot of areas,including wood working. I knew a few old time machinists who knew how to get by with very few tools. They had the necessary back ground information to be able to do it. Repeat,NECESSARY BACKGROUND INFORMATION. My point is,the MOST IMPORTANT tool in your shop is what's between your ears. Fill it up with knowledge.

[Darren Brewster]

For everyone's info: Roy's "shop" is a set on a sound stage. It is a bunch of props. He brings in whatever tools he needs to show how to do different jobs. That is why you don't see a lot of tools laying around in his "shop".

I have seen a picture online of the set "zoomed out" so you see all the sound stage stuff around what we see on the show. Of course I can't find it again, but it was pretty cool looking.

[Sean Hughto]

FWIW, I agree that is impressive when folks can make great stuff with limited resources because they only have access to limited resources (too little space, too little money, no store selling the stuff nearby, need it right now, etc.). I also agree that one is best off knowing how to use the tools they have well - as opposed to acquiring more in hopes that the acquisition will make skill unnecessary or something. But I don't think either of these things means one should aspire to make-do with less than an optimal set of tools, just for the bragging rights. There is also the idea of the creativity that can often spring from a limited palette as opposed to infinite choices, but that is, I suppose, another thread.

[Chris Griggs]

FWIW, I agree that is impressive when folks can make great stuff with limited resources because they only have access to limited resources (too little space, too little money, no store selling the stuff nearby, need it right now, etc.). I also agree that one is best off knowing how to use the tools they have well - as opposed to acquiring more in hopes that the acquisition will make skill unnecessary or something. But I don't think either of these things means one should aspire to make-do with less than an optimal set of tools, just for the bragging rights. There is also the idea of the creativity that can often spring from a limited palette as opposed to infinite choices, but that is, I suppose, another thread.

Well said Sean.

[george wilson]

Knowledgeable tool collectors would go into the gunsmith shop years ago,and tell me that they were working under Medieval conditions. They would FILE OUT every screw in a gun,usually from 1/2" round bar wrought iron. Then,when they tried threading the screw,using modern threading tools,the threads would fall off due to the inclusions of silicon in the impure metal. Finally,years later,when I was toolmaker,I made them some proper period screw plates. Old fashioned screw plates did not cut the threads,they MASHED the threads into the metal. This way,the threads would not fall off. Those old time people knew how to handle their defective materials.

They had no lathe,because there was none listed in the 18th. C. inventory. Finally,after MANY years,it was discovered that if the lathe was attached to the wall,it was counted as part of the building,and thus not listed in the inventory. Finally,I made a good treadle lathe for them. You'd starve to death filing small screws out of bar material. A prominent gun maker in 18th.C. London had about 7 lathes listed in his inventory. I guess they were not attached to the wall!

All this relates to filling up the tool chest between your ears. Huge amounts of trouble could have been saved had they known how to use original screw plate tech. Also,if they'd had a lathe. Egos and lack of enough research got in the way,though at that time.

[Mel Fulks]

I have no doubt that every word of George's anecdotes about the gunsmith are true. I'm pretty sure that guy turned out to be smart and was allowed to hold an unprecedented number of jobs at once and is credited with figuring out some things that had been lost,when there wasn't anyone to ask. So to anyone struggling to learn,skill is good,but ask questions,too. And be glad George and others are here.

[David Weaver]

Who claimed that it hindered him?

The premise of the original blog post (which I unfortunately was forced to go read) was that it is "harder to learn, costlier, more space consuming" to not use this newfound parsimony. I used the word hinder myself and George as an example. If those things mentioned are not a hindrance (my choice of words), I don't know what would be.

There isusually a bandwagon that occurs due to blog posts, though we as a forum group jump on the bandwagon less, at least on this forum, because most of us are already situated and used to what we have.

I agree with George's sentiment, and would expand it to do whatever you want to do (if that's three tools, great, if it's 3 thousand, great) and decide on your own without blogs and magazines.

Ten years ago, the bandwagon followed FWW and bought whatever was highly rated in FWW. There's an older Tage Frid bandwagon, etc. There is now a small paul sellers bandwagon. I'd rather avoid them all. I didn't even come to hand tools via any of those sources, I came to them because a friend tried to get me into power tool woodworking and I wanted to do something where I was working wood more and setting up tools less - I was surprised after I got a few planes and a borrowed a lie nielsen video (to learn sharpen them) that there was such a thing as forums and blogs dedicated to the subject. Since Chris Schwarz was gaining a loyal following back then but I had no idea who he was, I really didn't "get" the blog thing at all. There have been so many bandwagonish things from various factions that it's mind boggling:

* use bow saws
* buy only premium tools
* buy only used tools
* buy boutique saws
* buy a miter box
* file saws rip only
* replace every vintage iron with a new one
* grind planes square and flat
* don't grind planes
* use only wooden planes
* tool slave (based on sizes)
* don't tool slave (based on sizes)
* use waterstones
* use oilstones
* use japanese natural stones
* get a piece of float glass
* get granite surface plates

I could probably list 100 of them, they irk me a little bit. This has nothing to do with the schwarz blog post, but the crowd of "i can do it with fewer tools than you can" irks me a little bit. I grew up around pa dutch type folks who didn't want to spend a nickel to do anything right, and they were always out to boast to you how much more they did based on grit (and self punishment) than you did enjoying yourself at something.

The same thing happens in shaving (which I got into because I wanted to see how old timers did it). If you start on your own without the suggestion of someone else, and you do it for a while, you then come upon all of these forums, vendors, blogs, etc that have all kinds of stuff on them, and loyal followers, when, just like woodworking, you'll find what you need to know mostly from your time in front of the sink. The shaving people are worse than woodworking folks in terms of bandwagoning and then assailing anyone who isn't on "your team".

[george wilson]

My parents were about as bad as any of your Pa. Dutch,I'll bet,David. We cut the lawn with scissors in Alaska. We only had 1 pair of scissors in the house,and it fell to me to keep them sharp. They were used to make clothes as well as for crude hair cutting. I used to get ribbed at school about my hair cut.

My step father would rather have me spend hours damaging a tire,trying to put it onto the rim by hand,than pay a dollar to get it properly mounted at the gas station down the street. I likely did un necessary damage to the tire's bead trying to force it onto the wheel using only the lug wrench. If I'd had more knowledge,I'd have known to use soapy water,but I did not know that at the time.

When we moved to Virginia,we built our single car garage out of salvaged wood from the nearby Naval base. Inside the garage were countless nail holes and all manner of damaged old wood. IIRC,we spent many hours on the outside filling old nail holes before painting. We mixed the concrete in a wooden box about 2 feet by 4 feet and a foot deep. Needless to say,the floor was made of many smallish slabs of concrete which were always cracking. The drive way was made that way too. 2 strips of concrete with plenty of cracks. The old house is still there. I see it once in a while. I must say,I don't see much point in having a screwed up concrete driveway. The original gravel would have looked better.

They saved every nickel they could all their lives,only to give it all away to the kids when they died. They were depression era people,and were always afraid another one would come along.

Having lived through an arduous childhood with LESS,I have decided that LESS IS LESS!!!

[David Weaver]

It's funny you mention the tires. I remember trying to get a tire off of a rim with a screwdriver and then a pry bar (we ruined it, too). As far as building things goes, we had a box in our garage about 3 times the size of a kid's toy chest and it was filled with non-matching wood -hardwoods, softwoods, whatever. If we built something, that's what we used, and any junk wood we found made its way into that until a relative tore down an old house and we got a whole bunch of antique siding from it (that wasn't good for much, either).

We had two saws, I don't know where we got them, but you could saw through a hardwood 1/4 in about a half an hour with one. They are still there at home, rusty, hanging on a nail outside.

My parents are a lot looser now that I'm no longer there, and they loosened up with some things by the time I got older (I didn't want for much now that I look back, but I did definitely have zero chance of learning to "do things the right way" or the "best way", because that always costs a little more). I don't know if it's because their parents died and now they don't think anyone will see them spending money, or if they saw their parents die with a lot of money and no ability to ever treat themselves or anyone else with it. Whatever it was, they got out of it, but their parents never did.

My grandmothers' brother had to catch his first ever private airplane flight when they were about 80 - to go see one of their other brothers a thousand miles away. The brother she was going on the trip with had an egg route (delivering eggs) his whole working life so he was used to waking up in the morning (without an alarm clock) and was living alone in his old age. When they bought their trip tickets, they had a very early 2 hour drive to get to the airport and her brother absolutely refused to spend any money on an alarm clock to make sure he could catch the flight on time (despite the fact that he hadn't woken up for his egg route in 20 years). He was by no means remotely close to poor at the time, it was just the mentality that he was not going to spend 5 bucks he didn't have to.

I am sure you had it *much* harder than I did, I never was going to get decent tools and a fresh pile of new lumber to work with but my parents did a lot for me. It's funny how many of those depression traits went across the board, though, and I still see the envy and criticism when I'm home about people who will spend money on themselves. Not necessarily from my parents any longer, but from other relatives. The bragging rights of going without are still a huge deal to some of them. That's far off of the original subject of doing it to save money, time, difficulty, I'll admit. I guess that's a sign that the thread is pretty much done with the original topic.

[george wilson]

My mother was so jealous. A "friend" of theirs worked two jobs. Mother described him as "money hungry". Fact was,he had 3 daughters. We were only 2 kids. He lived in a much better house than we did. His extra efforts at trying to get a better living for his family were just sneered at by my mother. somehow being poor was a virtue to her. She HAD come from a pretty wealthy family who lost their money in the depression. My grand father had all his savings tied up in a safe full of stocks.

He would come home missing his coat,which he'd given to someone who needed it worse.

Even after we were grown,and my parents had saved over $100,000-maybe more(My step father had about $250,000.00 after mother died),they would still buy defective,reject furniture rather than proper. I saw a slant top desk with a HUGE warp in the lid in their living room. And,it was low end furniture to begin with!!

[Halgeir Wold]

I think those who lived trough the depression learned that they just plain and simply HAD to take care of themselves and their families on a totally different way than the next generation- Pensions and life insurance was not for plain ordinary folks. After WWII life was difficult for most europeans while americans started they rise even during the war. The way towards the way people live nowadays probably started one or to decades later here in Europe. Thus people learned the hard way that they just had to save a dollar or to for a rainy day. There is a fundamental difference between being plain mean and cheap, and being frugal.

My late father was a plumber, employed by the government, and payment for craftsmen was far from plentiful up until the late 60s when inflation and wages really started to escalate. Being the elder of 4 siblings, I was the one who always had to take part in all things to be done, as paying other people to do the work was mostly out of the question, - at last if you were in a position to do it yourself. I used to hate all those taks, but in adult life I fully realized the worth of all the things I learned in those early years. I have mostly been DIY in all aspects during my adult life, except for the timber works for my own house back in -79.
Looking at the ways of our modern society, I actually think that being slighly frugal is good for you...
Now- for the pack rat disease that plagues quite a few of us, - I just don't know what to say... :rolleyes:

[Michael Ray Smith]

This hobby is to enjoy yourself,after all,not to fret over how many tools it might take to make a given item.

Precsely.

However, my storage space is very limited, and I'm beginning to wonder if I really need a No. 2, a No. 3, a No. 4, a No. 4 1/2, a No. 5, a No. 6, a No. 7, AND a No. 8 bench plane, just because they take up so much room. And because by selling some of them I could reclaim some of the money I spent on them, which I could then use to buy more tools. . . . . wait a minute, I think I'm beginning to see the source of my storage problem.

[Jim Koepke]

[snip]

Looking at the ways of our modern society, I actually think that being slighly frugal is good for you...
Now- for the pack rat disease that plagues quite a few of us, - I just don't know what to say... :rolleyes:

Maybe the pack rat propensity is just a manifestation of depression era living and being frugal.

That would explain my father's pack rat ways and how it came to me through him.

jtk

[george wilson]

Michael,you need to save up your money and get a larger work space!!:) BTW,I don't even have that many planes!

[Bill Moser]

I stood the 9 day introductory course, back in May.
It was discussed that while possible to dimension all lumber by hand in a home shop,
that would bring the pace of instruction to a halt in a classroom setting.

Given the cost of lunchbox planers and tabletop jointers, it's inexpensive for a hobbyist to farm out the "Donkey work" to machines.
That leaves more time for the fun parts.

Sometimes it's faster to do it by hand, if the piece in question is small - dependent on the wood species.

Many of us setting up our lumber stash have the good fortune to buy well-seasoned lumber that's already S2S.
No need for either a power planer, or try plane in that case.

I think that hobbyist should spend a little extra at the lumberyard to get choice boards dimensioned,
and forego buying a planer altogether. I'm on the fence about jointers.

I wish it was this easy. My limited experience with pre-dimensioned lumber -- whether from the borg, or a "real" lumberyard -- has not been good. Everything has some combination of cup, twist and bow. In some cases, it doesn't matter that much, i guess. My last project was a simple desk for my GF. Since she really isn't a fine furniture aficionado, and needed a desk sooner rather than later, I figured I'd save some time starting with s4s 3/4 white oak from the borg. What a mistake! The wood was so cupped, I would have had to remove 1/4" to get it flat. I ended up getting it close to flat, and then just sanding out the joints. Yuck. It really didn't look that bad, eyeballing it in the store, but with the amount of planing I would have had to put into it to get it flat, I might has well have started with 4/4 rough lumber. I had a similar experience with my workbench top. I bought some 16/4 rock maple, and thought I'd spare myself some grunt work by having a local lumber yard s2s it for me. They managed to remove the cup, but left me with 1/16" ripples the length of the boards. I spent many hours hand planing the boards down to 3.5". If you have a great lumberyard nearby, that can produce dimensioned lumber which needs only a smoother to finish it, that's great. I don't, so I'll be hanging on to my ulmia scrub, and my #7.

[David Weaver]

Pack ratting was extremely common here for people who grew up poor (esp. Rural) in the great depression. I guess if you spend a large part of your life with nothing, you don't want to let anything go.

[Jim Koepke]

If you have a great lumberyard nearby, that can produce dimensioned lumber which needs only a smoother to finish it, that's great.

Wait, do you mean such lumberyards exist?

Sometimes the boards I buy change on the drive home.

jtk

[Tony Wilkins]

Pack ratting was extremely common here for people who grew up poor (esp. Rural) in the great depression. I guess if you spend a large part of your life with nothing, you don't want to let anything go.

My great-grandmother was that way. I'm not sure what my excuse is.

[Jim Matthews]

Pack ratting was extremely common here for people who grew up poor (esp. Rural) in the great depression. I guess if you spend a large part of your life with nothing, you don't want to let anything go.

It's an older compulsion than the last Century.
Hunter-gatherers that brought home anything they could find survived.

Their obsession for having more things runs deep in our collective DNA.

It's a rare, highly formalized society that has balanced this with an ascetic aesthetic.

I live in a heavily Portuguese inflected backwater where people store old cars, scavenged wire and cans for scrap.
I consider some of the yards and garages I've seen a cautionary tale on my own weakness for found things.

That said - the OP is no doubt wondering what happened to the thread, as am I.

[Mike Holbrook]

The OP realizes that trying to turn this thread around would be a little like standing in front of a fast moving freight train to stop it. I am certainly not the one to shake my finger at anyone for having too many tools. I got a box from Tools for Working Wood, a box from Lee Valley, bought two Steve Knight wood planes from a Creeker passing through Atlanta and I am trying to finalize an order with Stu at Tools from Japan, just this week.

My original post entitled Less is More was not target at less Tools as much as economy of Technique. My fascination with what Frank Klausz, Schwarz and our own George can do (not have to do) with less tools isn't the fact that they may do it with less tools but that they obviously have a skill set that allows them to get more done with less tools than most of us can. I imagine I have at least "enough" tools to make just about any joint a half dozen ways with either hand tools or machines. Now I am at a place where I am trying to figure out the most efficient way to make the most efficient joints for actual projects. It should come as no surprise to anyone on this forum that I prefer to use hand tools when the job can be done with reasonable efficiency with them. I am not so enamored of hand tools, however, that I will elect to rip 8' 8/4 boards with a handsaw when I have a bandsaw or Festool saw that will do the job faster allowing me more time to do more of the things I like to do with hand tools.

I understand that tools can become like old friends to many of us. We like doing things with old friends both because we just like them and because we have established a unique ability to communicate with them on a different level. I personally am not on a quest to have less tools I am just trying to learn to appreciate and use the ones I have better.

Neither am I here to try to control the direction of this thread. I understand the less is more concept in relation to the number of tools we "collect" too. I also understand the bandwagon thing in relationship to tools. These all seem like valid topics to me relating to the Less is More idea. I was hoping to avoid heated feelings pursuant to debate over a minimum tool kit. I think Michael Ray makes an amusing and valid personal observation that I can relate too. If I sell off my table saw or even some of my hand tools I want have any delusions about it being to get to a reduced tool set. I doubt that Schwarz or Klausz have any delusions about a reduced tool kit either, how could they, they make money reviewing tools and teaching techniques with a wide range of tools. I personally find the message in The Three Minuet Dovetail to be a call to learn to use tools better not reduce ones tool collection.

[Hilton Ralphs]

The only reason these guys will make something with less tools than you or would use, is simply because they know exactly what they need. I have an inherent fear that I will start a project and then not have a tool to do something further down the line. What do I do? Buy more tools for that 'just in case' scenario.

The trick is then to sell off/give away the tools you don't use.

[David Weaver]

Jim - I know what happened. Isn't going way off topic after the initial topic is addressed the way we usually operate? :)

[David Weaver]

My great-grandmother was that way. I'm not sure what my excuse is. I have a little bit of it, too, with the tools and wood and stuff. If I don't know where I could get something easily again, I have a hard time getting rid of it. My wife is the queen of throw-away, though, so the living areas in our house are perfectly tidy. It's a balance I like.

[Sean Hughto]

I never really understood the objection to "off-topic" posts. Conversations often take paths and tangents, what's the harm? Is there some RULE about "ONLY on topic posts in threads?" And if so, what is the reason for the rule? We have enough pixels available to support on and off topic responses. Frankly, I often find the tangents folks think to bring up as just as interesting (sometimes more interesting) than the an OP's post that started the conversation.

[Jim Matthews]

Frankly, I often find the tangents folks think to bring up as just as interesting (sometimes more interesting) than the an OP's post that started the conversation.

True, but they're not searchable for future reference.
I find the most interesting things people say are typically in a sidebar,
or written on a napkin.

[David Weaver]

Is that a reference to Fermat?

[george wilson]

Funny,back in the 60's,when I had only a handful of hand tools and a few machines,I thought I had a pretty good shop. Others thought so too.

[Brian Holcombe]

I just buy tools as the jobs require them, starts off as minimalism and ends at maximalism. Generally if I can work through my project without the tool I'll do so, but only if it provides no hindrance or if I foresee no use for it in the future. For instance right now I'm cutting dovetails in 12/4, but really very rarely work with anything bigger than 8/4, so buying a taller dovetail saw seems like a waste.

[george wilson]

Sounds like a reasonable plan,Brian.

[Kees Heiden]

Funny to read your stories about how frugal your parents where. Mine were quite the other way around. My father started late fifties as a school teacher with a very small income. But quickly after the salaries went up and the roaring sixties started. They happily jumped on that bandwagon. As kids we had a pretty easy life, did a lot of traveling around Europe etc. I think I am more frugal then my parents were.

[Jim Matthews]

Is that a reference to Fermat?

Theoretically yes, but that might be pure conjecture on my part.

[Jim Koepke]

I am not so enamored of hand tools, however, that I will elect to rip 8' 8/4 boards with a handsaw when I have a bandsaw or Festool saw that will do the job faster allowing me more time to do more of the things I like to do with hand tools.

The problem is, the bandsaw will not burn calories like a handsaw. My bandsaw is a bit wimpy, but it gets used where it is the best for the job and sometimes because of the increased speed. But if my desire is to have a pint of beer or Ben & Jerry's, ripping some 10 foot planks of 8/4 hardwood will help me to keep them from showing up along the belt line.


The only reason these guys will make something with less tools than you or would use, is simply because they know exactly what they need.

Many years ago one of the magazines had a piece by a person who wanted to learn the art of coopering. He asked himself on the way to a demonstration of coopering if he would need to get some new tools and was wondering what shiny new tools he would see at the demonstration. He was surprised that the tools were all fairly old and well used. He concluded it isn't the tool it is the person guiding tool and making it work.

Surely if all but a few of my chisels went missing most of my projects could still be done. Some joinery on 2X4s or 2X6s is quicker with a 1-1/2" chisel than with a 3/4" chisel.

Yes it would be possible to work wood with just 3 bench planes. It would be inconvenient to change out the blade in jack plane every time it needed to change between being a scrub or knocking down the hills and valleys left by the scrub work.

If someone wants to use a #4 for flattening wide boards and joining the edges to glue up panels, great, they are better at doing these things with a small plane than I am.

My motto: What works for you is fine, what works for me is fine. If they are not the same it is fine.

jtk

[Jim Koepke]

True, but they're not searchable for future reference.

Every thread has a selection at the bottom of the page to add your own tags.

This is something I have used often to insert terms so a post can be found easily by searching in the future.

jtk

[Mike Holbrook]

Jim, I can't believe I have been posting on this forum this long and have not noticed the tags area at the end of threads, thanks for pointing that out.

Jim, my other hobby is throwing large dogs around on a bite sleeve. A buddy told me last sunday that the Rotty I was working was tossing me around like a pork chop in a shake & bake bag, some guys who may not be as young as we once were need to pace ourselves.

[Jim Koepke]

I can't believe I have been posting on this forum this long and have not noticed the tags area at the end of threads, thanks for pointing that out.

All my life finding things has been a fun hobby. Part of finding things is finding or leaving a trail to follow.

jtk

[Earl Sullivan]

My grandma wasn't much of a pack rat, she was an extreme minimalist. "You have a backyard, a library card, and a bike. I don't believe you're bored." She would just never buy ANYTHING.

She did, however, never throw away FOOD. She wasn't comfortable without a garden, some livestock(even if it's a couple chickens), a years worth of flour/pasta/rice, and 3+ months of canned goods. Oh, and a winter's worth of firewood.