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View Full Version : Do any of you use the front knob on your LV skew rabbet



Chris Griggs
10-01-2013, 8:30 PM
This is just a pure curiosity question brought on by a recent thread asking about this plane. I've had it for a few years, I adore it, but I can't think of a time I've ever used the front knob when cutting actual joinery. I've played with it some, and for the first couple years kept it on, but I always gripped it in the more standard fenced plane fashion with my fingers against the fence and my thumb over the toe (which is I think I saw Schwarz demoing it at the time, and the grip I always saw recommended). When I kept the knob on i would rest my thumb behind the knob, and did sometimes feel like it gave my thumb some positive registration, but eventually I took the knob off entirely and haven't thought much of it since.

Anyway, I'm getting ready to move, and was just bringing some stuff up from the basement and got distracted by that plane and the old knob that just sits there on the shelf. I decided to mess with the knob again, but pretty much immediately went back to the standard grip.

Again, love the plane, I just don't think I've ever seen a video of anyone using it with the knob or ever seen anyone describe using it that way.

Do any of you use the knob, if not do you leave it on the plane or like me have you taken it off. If you use it, is it in specific situations (e.g. raising panels or something) or do you use it all the time? What advantage do you find in using it.

Again, this is just pure curiosity...brought on mostly by boredom. I'm guessing this was discussed when it first came out a few years ago, but for the life of me I just can't recall much being said other than that it was best to grip it like a more traditional fenced plane.

David Weaver
10-01-2013, 8:49 PM
I do. I don't worry that much about rabbet neatness with the skew rabbet planes, I just clean up to the mark anything that's out of whack either with a large shoulder or a plain straight wooden rabbet plane. It's just faster to do that than it is to try to make sure the skew rabbet never ever wanders.

Chris Griggs
10-01-2013, 8:55 PM
I've doing that too to some extent...worrying *somewhat* less about perfection while sinking the rabbet and cleaning up with my med shoulder plane...but I haven't tried that approach using the knob. I guess since I'm doing that anyway, the knob could be advantageous in terms of trading some amount of precision for power. Never really thought about it that way before; that is, accepting that it is less precise but with the mentality that you will clean it up anyway, but gain some amount of speed or power or comfort from the knob. Interesting, glad I asked.

Tony Shea
10-01-2013, 9:40 PM
I do. I don't worry that much about rabbet neatness with the skew rabbet planes, I just clean up to the mark anything that's out of whack either with a large shoulder or a plain straight wooden rabbet plane. It's just faster to do that than it is to try to make sure the skew rabbet never ever wanders.

I personally spend the time to mark out rabbets real quick with a marking gauge to be sure I cut a nice accurate rabbet. But I'm not so sure I agree in that it is quicker to plane a crisp rabbet the first time with one plane than it is to have to go back and clean up a wonky one. I have the plane pretty much figured out but took a while to get there. But now I cut a rabbet very quickly and hit my marks 99% of the time. Like I said in another post, the only time I run into problems is when I have to plane against the grain. But with the blade sharp I can usually take heavy cuts up until the last few.

Malcolm Schweizer
10-01-2013, 11:22 PM
I love this question because at first I thought the same- do I really need the knob on that small plane? I do actually use it. It helps to get a good forward push with enough control and keep your eye on the plane. With a one-handed grasp it is harder to see where your edge is. I use the knob for rabbets but mostly one-hand the plane for trimming strips for strip-built boats and surfboards. They are one of my most-used tools.

Derek Cohen
10-02-2013, 1:54 AM
I do not use the front knob at all, ever. My front hand pushes the plane against the work piece at the plane mouth ..

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/UsingRebatePlanes_html_m333f5356.jpg

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/UsingRebatePlanes_html_52ba40a6.jpg

Ensure that you have a thick sub-fence ...

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/UsingRebatePlanes_html_51063c6f.jpg

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/UsingRebatePlanes_html_b1ccc07.jpg

... or you will end up slicing finger tips!

I wrote about this some years ago: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/UsingRebatePlanes.html

Regards from Perth

Derek

Jim Koepke
10-02-2013, 2:52 AM
It seems similar to the knob on the early Stanley 45. They were positioned on the main frame in line with the tote. Later they were moved to be above the fence. Neither position works well for me. Some must of liked it though since the early knobs that threaded directly on to the casting are usually stripped out or missing.

Maybe the missing knobs are from people thinking it was useless.

jtk

Chris Griggs
10-02-2013, 6:12 AM
What Derek shows is exactly how I use mine, and pretty much the way I thought everyone used it. When I kept the knob on my thumb would sit behind it like in Derek's pics. When I eventually took the knob off my thumb would just rest a little farther forward where the knob had previously been. Anyway, it is interesting to see that some people use it as Derek shows (i would guess most) but others do use that knob.

As side note, yes, I do need to stick a sub fence on there. I'm not sure why I never it did...in addition to giving more registration its one less area to keep waxed and the wood just glides so much nicer than the metal.

Malcolm, I think you are referring to the skew blocks vs the skew rabbet which is what I have? Of course, that is welcome commentary. I've used those and too like the little wooden knob. I really like that they kept it small, but still made it just a little bigger than brass knob. I have that fairly big add on knob for my LABP that's intended to be paired with the tote to convert it into a mini smoother and don't really use it, but after trying the skew block I started to wonder if a small wood knob like that one would be nice addition as something to leave on even for general purpose block plane work. Its just kinda a nice size for the scale of a block plane. Anyway, those skew block are lovely planes indeed....very very nicely designed, very very comfortable in hand. Never pulled the trigger on one cause I was never sure how much I needed one, but they are definitely on "would be nice to have" wish list.

Chris Griggs
10-02-2013, 6:34 AM
I personally spend the time to mark out rabbets real quick with a marking gauge to be sure I cut a nice accurate rabbet.

Definitely agree that good layout is definitely worthwhile whether one sinks the rabbet precisely or hogs it out roughly and then cleans up. I think with planes that have fences and stops its easy to neglect layout (and I guess thats the intent of set fences and stops), but I find it to be a very worthwhile step even with planes like filletsters, plows, and routers, that have set stops.

Chris Griggs
10-02-2013, 8:49 AM
I messed around this morning some more. Man, its been a few months since I used that plane. I forgot how much fun that plane is to use, especially in something like pine where you can just hog off spiral after spiral with so little effort...I love my tools:)

Anyway, back to the point. I raised a flat panel...so cut 4rabbets...and messed with the different grips. Definitely, get more consistent results not using the knob, but that's not really a surprise since that's how I've been using it for years.

What I did do when using the knob was really try to see if I could grip it and still sense plumb/how the fence was referencing. What I realized is when gripping the knob the natural tendency is tilt the plane in (to the right in the right handed model). If I really paid attention to focusing pressure down and to the right (vs just to the right) I was able to cut a good rabbet. What the knob does, is raise center of gravity for your hand so that any lateral force you apply makes it want to tilt. For me, when I grip the side of the plane/fence like Dereks pics show, I can really just keep my focus on applying pressure inward and get pretty consistent results (there is obviously still downward pressure but its just coming from my thumb and its not something I think about with that grip), whereas with the knob I need to pay more attention to apply force both downward and laterally to avoid tipping the plane (similar to using shooting plane).

All that is simply to say that I see how one could learn to consistently cut square rabbets using the knob once they become accustomed to how to apply force. When you focus on applying that pressure both in AND down you can still very much feel the fence referencing the edge. It does however require a bit more attention to things where as just gripping the plane low with ones fingers against the fence is a good bit more idiot proof. I may mess with it some more if I bored and in between projects, but my guess is I will likely continue to use it as Derek's pictures show. After some fresh messing around though, I do feel like I now have a better understanding of the thinking behind the presence of the knob.

Just some random thoughts....

Bob Glenn
10-02-2013, 10:18 AM
Derek, I notice in your pictures, that you have both the right and left hand LV planes. I am considering pulling the trigger on one or both of these. There is a small discount if your order both. Is it worth having both in the shop? Bob

Chris Griggs
10-02-2013, 10:30 AM
Well I'm not Derek (obviously) but I'll share my thoughts on this anyway until he chimes in. I will say that with only one (which is what I have) you are planing against the grain half the time. Depending on the wood usually just lightening the cut a little is fine, and sometimes you don't even need to do that, since rabbets are typically a blind joint a little tearout doesn't matter (raised panels are another matter).

However, it would definitely be preferable to not have to work against the grain half the time. I've actually been thinking of a different solution though. Since I sometimes like to use a shoulder plane as a rabbet plane anyway, I've been thinking about just getting a larger shoulder or rabbet plane (or getting one of the old rabbet planes i have up and running) and for those times when going against the grain become a problem just putting down the skew rabbet and using the unfenced plane instead. If one isn't good at using their fingers as a fence you could still always use the fenced plane just to establish a bit of a wall and the go with the grain using the unfenced plane.

Anyway, those are just my completely unqualified thoughts on that. You certainly do not need both but I do think it would be worthwhile to have some way to avoid planing against the grain when its strongly oriented in one direction or the other.

Derek Cohen
10-02-2013, 10:51 AM
As Chris writes, you do not need both for rebates. The second is handy when faced with planing into the grain, but light cuts and finishing with a shoulder plane get around this. On the other hand, if you are planning to use these planes for raised panels, where the surface is seen, then the second plane becomes more important.

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/Raisingapanel.html

If you plan to add a thick sub-fence, get the longer rods as well.

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/Raisingapanel_html_50ead493.jpg

Regards from Perth

Derek

Chris Griggs
10-02-2013, 11:06 AM
Derek, IIRC you tested and have the LA jack rabbet. Has that become your preferred method for raising panels or do you still put out the skew rabbets for that most of the time?

Derek Cohen
10-02-2013, 11:25 AM
Chris, the LA Jack Rabbet has the advantage of an adjustable mouth, which means it can take both a thick and finish shavings. The Skew Rabbet plane has a wider, fixed mouth that is designed for thicker shavings. Nevertheless, it remains a good alternative.

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/VeritasJackRabbetPlane_html_7744bd12.jpg

Regards from Perth

Derek

Chris Griggs
10-02-2013, 11:55 AM
Thanks for the input Derek. That's what I was thinking/wondering. Sounds like a worthwhile addition to the family for panel raising.

Hilton Ralphs
10-02-2013, 12:05 PM
Any excuse Chris, any excuse.

Chris Griggs
10-02-2013, 12:18 PM
Any excuse Chris, any excuse.

Haha. Yeah, it doesn't take much for me to be convinced that I want something and just throw it onto my LV wish list....actually deciding that I need it enough to buy it is another story entirely.

When it comes to pulling the trigger I'll spend years debating things sometimes. Funny enough, just this week I went and cleaned up and then added a bunch of stuff to my LV wish list. My bday is in a month so I had to get it updated to send the link out to everyone in the family. There are things on there that I will likely never buy myself, just because I don't need them that badly but I would have no problem having them in the shop if a family member wants to get the for me:). I love that wish list function. I wish LN and TFWW had that too.

David Weaver
10-02-2013, 12:38 PM
When I mentioned previoulsy that I use the front knob and go rough at it for speed, there are a few things that clear up why I said that.

* if you grab the front knob (and as chris says, you can get used to keeping the plane vertical whether you do or don't without too much issue), you can literally put more into the plane in a heavy shaving, or especially into a shaving where the grain is working against you
* the clean up that is done with a rabbet plane is never the bottom of the rabbet, but the side where, if perfectly set up, you'd have a vertical wall.

In the grand scheme of all of it, we can't really claim speed on anything, as I could put a router bit in a table in about three minutes and cut for 3 and 4 foot rabbets that are 1/2 by 3/4ths or whatever (despite the objections of the "never one pass crowd") and have the fence set and make some very nice rabbets. Same with a dado set TS and a sacrificial fence - it would be easy).

At any rate, the only thing I have to correct is the vertical edge of the rabbet where the plane may have wandered in some, and for clean up work, we are talking about 30 seconds, something that I'd save easily doing 3 or 4 big rabbets in a row by being able to make hay with two hands worth of pressure instead of one (not to mention the savings in elbow fatigue on the back hand).

That's pretty much it.

I do also have the left hand skew rabbet. I've never used it. I do have it, though and I might use it sometime..that's my contention. It's a nice plane, I'd hate to have to buy it a second time.

Tony Shea
10-02-2013, 4:44 PM
I do also have the left hand skew rabbet. I've never used it. I do have it, though and I might use it sometime..that's my contention. It's a nice plane, I'd hate to have to buy it a second time.

Interesting that you have the plane but don't use it. What is your reason for not using it, you surely must run into opposite grain rabbets from time to time. I wish I had one as I pretty much have opposing grain in every panel that needs a rabbet, or at least most panels. I might struggle with it in use having to push with my left and guide with my right. Not something I have ever had to do is plane left handed.

David Weaver
10-02-2013, 5:02 PM
Usually, I already have the RH skew out and in the cut and I just bull through opposing grain because the rabbets are not in an area that will be seen.

I've actually never used it at all that I can remember, not even in a test cut, so I have no idea how it would go planing something accurate left handed. I switch hands to plane when dimensioning wood, it just gives me a better angle of attach when planing an X and it gives my right elbow a break. But the skew rabbet may be another thing entirely, at least at the pace that it's nice to work when you have a few large rabbets to cut.

I have never raised a panel with the planes, that's most of the reason that I keep the left hander. I have other planes that raise panels, and a freud bit set that does a nice job when they have to look "store bought". I'll sell the skew rabbet plane to some lefty some day.

Chris Griggs
10-02-2013, 5:26 PM
Speaking of panel raising, I just got my Nov. Issue of PWW and it has an article on making traditional wooden panel raiser (as in from a solid blank). Very cool article. I wouldn't mind having a pair of those.

(I have the digital issue BTW, so those with a paper subscription won't have gotten it yet)

Tony Shea
10-02-2013, 9:27 PM
Speaking of panel raising, I just got my Nov. Issue of PWW and it has an article on making traditional wooden panel raiser (as in from a solid blank). Very cool article. I wouldn't mind having a pair of those.

(I have the digital issue BTW, so those with a paper subscription won't have gotten it yet)

I heard that was going to be in that issue from somewhere. I'm actually looking forward to it which is rare now a days with any of these magazines. I know we have a lot of PWW fans here but I have been very unimpressed lately with PWW, especially the size of the magazine. For two months wait one would think it might be a tad thicker.

Malcolm Schweizer
10-03-2013, 7:22 PM
Whoops! In my earlier reply I was referring to the skewed rabbiting block planes- the smaller version. One day I shall get a set of these.