Two guys in need of advice, any will be a appreciated.

[Duncan Woodward]

I have a bit of a request to ask of you that are more experienced than I. My friend and I are planning on going into business together, doing custom engravings of dog tags for fellow members of an online community, and to be frank, we are noobs. We kindly request some assistance in the form of information, as we've been doing research, but feel the good advice of experts in the field could mean the difference between success and failure.

From what we understand, the wattage required for engraving anodized aluminum shouldn't be more than 40 watts. That being said, we are also quite interested in doing shot glasses/beer glasses, and are curious what kind of power would be required for that. That could end up being a major source of our income, especially at the beginning, so we need to know exactly what's required for that.

Another question is about brands, and what you guys know. Every company is willing to tout their product as the best in the business, but I trust you guys have a few good/bad experiences with various companies, and any input would be wonderful. Right now we are looking at Hurricane Lasers, Epilog, Rabbit Laser USA, and Legacy Lasers. We were at one point looking at Full Spectrum Lasers, but have since heard a few negative things about them. We are looking for a nice, large work area (~20x12 inches) so we can do large batches of dog tags, so that is one thing we are looking for. Another important factor is longevity. This is (as I'm sure you are aware) not a small investment, and we don't want to have to make another one in a few years time. Also, companies with good financing options are preferred, as it would help us get up and going faster.

Another inquiry, what equipment is strictly necessary. While the function is relatively easy to determine, the necessity is not. Obviously, a chiller keeps temp down, and an exhaust directs the unnecessary outflow, but some machines include these, and some list them as extras. So is it something we will need, or something we can get later on?

One final question, what software suites are best for this sort of application. We would like to engrave high detail logos and crisp lettering on the dog tags, so what is the best option? Some of the machines we've researched seem to be able to accept output from any piece of software that can print, but there are also other dedicated pieces of software available. Despite being noobs at engraving, we are both very computer savvy, so technicality would probably be a plus, not a negative. Whatever you guys think is our best bet for high quality engravings without blowing our budget would be nice to know.

Thanks for taking the time to read this, I know I can be long winded, but we really are passionate about this, and can't wait to jump in. We just want to make sure we are prepared with the proper knowledge to proceed.

Thanks,
Duncan

[Ross Moshinsky]

Get a used 30-40W "low end" Epilog, Universal, or Trotec laser. That should run between $4-7k. Remember, you're going to need to run around 3000 dog tags to break even. That does not include paying yourself a dime during that period. I wouldn't build my business model around doing dog tags. You'll need to run tens of thousands to make a living.

[Steve Clarkson]

My advice is........get out while you can!!!! There is no way that you will make enough money doing dog tags to pay for a laser, let alone feed your dog. Check Etsy and EBay and you will see that people are selling them for peanuts. My advice is that you should hook up with someone that already has a laser and sub the engraving out to them. Buy CorelDraw ($500 or so), learn it, and then you can layout the artwork and e-mail it to your engraver who can engrave them for you. How much would you sell a dog tag for? $10? Then I'm sure you can find someone that will engrave them for $4 or so.....then you can save up your $6 profits until you have enough money to buy your own laser.

[Joe Hillmann]

As far as what is necessary.

You NEED a computer program to run your laser, CorelDraw is the most common. Some here also use photoshop. Western made lasers can print from any program that you could print to a printer from. Chinese lasers are a bit more picky on what you can print from.

You NEED an exhaust system, It keeps the smoke of your work area. If you don't have it hooked up your lenses will become dirty in seconds or minutes.

A rotary may be helpful if you plan to do glassware. Without it you are very limited on what you can do on cylindrical items.

Air assist isn't necessary (nice but not necessary).

If you don't have air assist then an air compressor isn't needed.


If the laser is air cooled no chiller is needed. If it is water cooled, some type of water circulation IS NEEDED, the laser will be destroyed in minutes without water running through it.

40 watts will do glass with no problem. It will also engrave, wood, plastic, leather, and stone. 40 watts probably isn't enough to do much cutting of wood, plastic or leather.

When it comes to quality, you can't go wrong with a western made laser, meaning, Trotec, Epilog, or Universal. They all make good machines that have good user interfaces and have good tech support. They are also the most expensive.

Next you would have companies that are American distributes for Chinese made machines such as Rabbit laser. They are cheaper than western made lasers. Depending on the company they can have very good tech support and can get parts to you quickly. They also may come to your site to get you set up and trained. The machines are probably of a lower quality than the western machines. Their user interface is also much more...clunky then western machines.

Last you have the Chinese machines ordered direct from China. That is the cheapest way to go. The biggest downside of this method is tech support may be harder to get or nonexistent and it takes much longer to get parts.

[Duncan Woodward]

Hey guys, thanks for the rapid response.

Of note, we are doing this as a retail type business. We will be selling pairs of dog tags to individuals, and they will be personally engraved. To have someone else personally engrave each tag would drive up cost, reducing our profit, and by selling to individuals, our price per pair of tags will be much higher than selling in bulk.

Other than that, lots of useful information, especially about 40 watts, being capable of handling glass. I guess I hear a lot of western vs. eastern lasers, any specific experiences with a company we can draw from?

[Gary Hair]

Even though the profit margins will be slimmer, I would suggest that you sub out your lasering for a short time to see what your sales will actually be like. If you buy the laser it may be an expensive lesson that you'll learn.

As already mentioned, Corel Draw is the go-to for design. As for glassware, I would suggest you consider sandcarving instead of lasering, the effect is what people expect to see and you just can't get it from a laser. I know, I know, you don't want to spend the money, expand your offering, etc., too quickly, but you'll thank yourself in the long run if you use the right equipment for the job.

Just my .02

[Dan Hintz]

I'll offer this advice about starting a business with a friend... if you want to keep your friend, don't start the business. There's a reason divorces happen all of the time because of money pressure issues. If you absolutely must start this business with a friend, make sure you have an airtight contract that spells out every little detail from who owns what to how profits are split to how things are paid for (though this is good advice for any business). Think about health care costs. think about employment taxes, etc.

[Ross Moshinsky]

Hey guys, thanks for the rapid response.

Of note, we are doing this as a retail type business. We will be selling pairs of dog tags to individuals, and they will be personally engraved. To have someone else personally engrave each tag would drive up cost, reducing our profit, and by selling to individuals, our price per pair of tags will be much higher than selling in bulk.

Other than that, lots of useful information, especially about 40 watts, being capable of handling glass. I guess I hear a lot of western vs. eastern lasers, any specific experiences with a company we can draw from?

You're not reducing your profit. You're increasing your profit because you aren't 4-7k in the hole. Believe me, I'm not saying you can't make money with a laser. You can. Your current plan is flawed. Doing small runs is actually less profitable than doing bulk runs. The reason why is time spent with the customer. A $3-5 dog tag may take 15+ minutes to sell. Impossible to make money that way.

If you want to sell dog tags, your business model should be internet based and/or based on selling them in bulk. If I were to get into that type of business, an ace eCommerce site would be my #1 priority.

[Steve Clarkson]

Answer this question (so we can tell you how quickly you will go bankrupt).......how much are you planning to sell a pair of dog tags for and how many do you think you will sell per month?

[Frank barry]

Hi you have a lot of very good advice above and on many other posts on here so take the time to read them and learn from them but remember there is no one way to make sure a business a success
Have a plan and remember if you can sell you can get someone to make them but if you can make them and can’t sell it you will fail
We have a saying in Ireland (you will never learn to swim if you don’t let go of the bar) so go for it and you will learn so much about yourself
Frank

[Dave Sheldrake]

I Spoke to Jon about this Dunc :)

cheers

Dave

[Martin Boekers]

Consider sublimation, you can get set up nicely for under $3500.00, vinyl cutters can be had for $500.00. Develop product lines. Are you close to vendors such as JDS etc may cut down shipping costs. Definitely consider going to ARA I n Feb before finalizing anything, that way you can see the possibilities of developing product lines and start networking. consider a marketing plan, how do you plan to market your dog tags? This is very important. Many places such Petsmart already have laser in shop doing this. Subbing out work isn't necessarily a bad way to go, many folks make a good living selling promotional products from ASI vendors. The folks here are not being negative, they are just addressing pitfalls they have seen too many times with people starting this type of business. I hope one of you have extensive graphics background as that can sometimes that can be a making or breaking factor. We wish you luck and keep us apprised as you enter this "Crazy world of engraving!" :)

[Mike Null]

The proper knowledge to succeed has not to do with what machine you buy but whether you have the ability to market the things you can do with the machine.

Dog tags are a great item---that's why you can buy them so many places.:rolleyes:

Oops, we must have been typing at the same time Marty.

[AL Ursich]

The local Wally Mart has a Coin Operated Dog Tag Machine and I watch when I go and I have never seen anyone use it...

I started my Business with a Tourist Product based business living in a tourist area... It was not enough to pay the bills and I too almost went belly up....

I think you are going to find that the "WOW" factor of Dog Tags and even the Shot Glasses and Mugs... Yes, they have a BIG WOW Factor.... "WOW YOU make them?".... Once that is over... OK.... How many would you like to order? That is when the Stuttering starts.. "Well, let me ask my Wife?" Or for the Mugs, "Let me ask my Business Manager" and then they avoid you...

The next factor is the "Soccer Mom".... I will use this as an example... Soccer Trophies... She shows up and gets prices.... goes to the next place in town and asks can you "BEAT" that price.... Then 3 or 4 stops later she is back to your door..... I found them cheaper on the Internet and here, here, and here.... Can you beat that price.... and I need them tomorrow morning.

This is going to happen for the Tags and Glass... Very Seldom does a business like this work out....

At least you are going into this with your eyes open and asking all the right questions....

As for Sublimation and Dog Tags.... I have tried them and even did epoxy dome on them.... OUR dogs when playing have chipped the tags and even gotten some of the epoxy off.... Had they EATEN the Epoxy Dome pieces and ended up at the VET.... Imagine the LIABILITY.... The Pain and Suffering of the OWNER..... Are you ready for a Lawyer to come knocking at your door because the Dog Tag that you made was pulled off a dog by another and EATEN and became lodged inside requiring sugery... O' the PAIN and $UFFERING..... O'..$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$.. . Ye$, this is the REAL WORLD....

On the news this morning... a Lady arrested for Scamming the Boston Bomber Fund.... Was not even in Boston... Bad People looking for an "Opportunitity".... Like all the people that GET ON a CRASHED CITY BUS after the Accident.... "O' my neck"

Good Luck,

AL

[Martin Boekers]

Al, your right about sublimation for certain products. I guess what I wanted to say was to a point you want to have some diversity. If you are associated with dogs shows and think tags are a great idea then maybe you can sell sublimated items too... Sublimation is easy and cheap to set up. It can be more labor intensive, but it can fill in the blank spots when your main business is slow.

[Frank barry]

You could look at the iMARC engraver and you could pick up a used one for small money many pet shops have them and also sell the tags on eBay I am sure you could buy a used one for $1000 or so buy tags for $ o.40 to $ o.60 sell them for $5.00+
Just another option
Frank

[Dan Hintz]

Does PetCo even have those Epilog-based tag engravers in their store any more? They sere a big hit initially, but once the newness wore off, I never saw anyone standing at the machine since.

[Martin Boekers]

Does PetCo even have those Epilog-based tag engravers in their store any more? They sere a big hit initially, but once the newness wore off, I never saw anyone standing at the machine since.I don't get in stores often but I did see them. You bought the tag or code at the counter than went to the machine. you would have to sell 8 day at $8ea to gross about $20k. There is a rotary style one on the BX on base, but it is rare I ever see anyone there. Now....... if it did plates for awards and gifts.....it would definitely cut into my business...

[Mark Ross]

If you or your friend are married, hire a lawyer. I can start the "horror" stories. Knew two guys that were best buds, thick as thieves, I would go so far to say that they had a serious "bromance" going. Everything was casual with a handshake and verbal agreement and it worked great for years until...one guy got divorced and lost his portion of his business to the ex. She ended up running the business into the ground and there wasn't a thing her ex or his bud could do to prevent it. Sound silly? A perfect example is Dale Jr. His dad left his business to his wife (not Dale's mom) and Dale ended up having to drive for a different company because the woman was too pig headed to listen to common sense. 50/50 is not 50/50 when someone has an ex he11 bent on ruing what two bros took years building up just so she could inflict pain. Go INC or LLC.

[Scott Shepherd]

I had a decent customer a few years ago that was setup the same way. Two guys, partners, rolling in the cash. One went through a divorce, she ended up getting the controlling share of the business and proceeded to let it run into the ground.

[Dave Sheldrake]

1: Believe in yourself & your product first and foremost, if you don't nobody else will.
2: Listen to advice but remember most of it is opinion, always treasure facts like gold dust.
3: Even cheap borrowing isn't cheap.
4: Your customers pay your wages, you are not doing then the favour by selling to them, they are doing you the favour by choosing you as their supplier.
5: Most buyers will only ever hear about your mistakes.
6: Don't plan a week ahead, try at least 3 to 6 months.
7: Flogging a dead horse will not make it win any races, know when your product is no good and accept it.
8: Just because "I Can" doesn't mean "You Will", just because "I Can't" doesn't mean "You Won't".
9: Be available when your customers want you, not when it suits you.
10: Any major decision should be slept on. Dawns early light shines differently on things.

cheers

Dave

[Gary Hair]

Great advice!


1: Believe in yourself & your product first and foremost, if you don't nobody else will.
2: Listen to advice but remember most of it is opinion, always treasure facts like gold dust.
3: Even cheap borrowing isn't cheap.
4: Your customers pay your wages, you are not doing then the favour by selling to them, they are doing you the favour by choosing you as their supplier.
5: Most buyers will only ever hear about your mistakes.
6: Don't plan a week ahead, try at least 3 to 6 months.
7: Flogging a dead horse will not make it win any races, know when your product is no good and accept it.
8: Just because "I Can" doesn't mean "You Will", just because "I Can't" doesn't mean "You Won't".
9: Be available when your customers want you, not when it suits you.
10: Any major decision should be slept on. Dawns early light shines differently on things.

cheers

Dave

[Duncan Woodward]

Ok, hopefully after this, I won't have to clarify further: These are military style dog-tags for an online community of over 200,000, many of which have expressed interest in such a product. The voracious nature with which these people have snatched up similar products leave us with little doubt as to how popular these will be. I appreciate your help and advice regarding our business plans, and whether or not to go into business with a friend, and I can say that we are taking the proper steps to ensure that our friendship does not complicate our business dealings, and are quite sure that we can cover the costs of the machine in short order.

The reason for creating this post was because we are looking for advice on machinery, not business advice or relationship advice. I appreciate that you guys are trying to help, and we will take what you've shared with us to heart, but what's important right now is to determine what machine to buy.

[Dan Hintz]

The reason for creating this post was because we are looking for advice on machinery

As a business, you have to make the final decision based upon all of the info you come across (here, and on other sites). A Chinese machine will be significantly cheaper than a Western unit... but it can also cause immense pain when something goes wrong (and it eventually will, no matter what machine you buy). Will your customers be happy if your machine is down for a month because of a broken tube or power supply? No matter how technically inclined you are, you can't fix a broken tube in your garage, and you're at the mercy of the companies who will ship replacements to you.

All of the Chinese machines are cut from the same basic pattern/design. The main differences lie in the controlling software, none of which will be completely painless to learn/use (though some are better than others).

[Martin Boekers]

I'm sorry I have to smile.... I thought you were talking pet tags..... :) if you want to do military style then you need a different machine than a laser...something like this. http://www.dogtagmachines.com/?gclid=CO2wv7P2-LkCFctr7AodcUoAiQIf your talking anodized dog tags like JDS sells then a laser will work. Roland also sells an impact engraver see this video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6h_bNOAIrgSorry for my confusion.....

[matthew knott]

Be careful on they type of dogtag you plan on engraving, most proper military style tags are stainless steel, this tends to be what people are often looking for, we got a contract to engrave 30'000 dogtags for a popular software game title, BATTLEFIELD 3 i think was the game title, they wanted the proper US Army style dogtags, these are stainless steel, we also did COD Modern Warfare, lots of them !! A CO2 laser will not touch these type of tags. Anodized is another story and you will be fine engraving these with a chinese or western style co2 machine

[Ross Moshinsky]

Be careful on they type of dogtag you plan on engraving, most proper military style tags are stainless steel, this tends to be what people are often looking for, we got a contract to engrave 30'000 dogtags for a popular software game title, BATTLEFIELD 3 i think was the game title, they wanted the proper US Army style dogtags, these are stainless steel, we also did COD Modern Warfare, lots of them !! A CO2 laser will not touch these type of tags. Anodized is another story and you will be fine engraving these with a chinese or western style co2 machine

You can't do 30,000 dog tags on a CO2 (well you can but it wouldn't be wise) but if you want to do stainless in smaller quantities, there is always Cermark. That's of course assuming they don't want "traditional" stamped dog tags. Also, if someone got a 30,000 piece order, that opens up all sorts of opportunities, including buying a gantry fiber laser.

[AL Ursich]

:eek: Color me Stupid.... I thought it was a PET TAG DREAM with LOGO'S too... I have my Navy Dog Tag on my keys tonight from January 1976... Stainless.... :)

And the Business advice.... My BAD....

AL

Retired Navy...

[Gary Hair]

You can't do 30,000 dog tags on a CO2 (well you can but it wouldn't be wise)

Tell that to dogtagsforkids... I lasered 288 at a time for them and it would only take 104 batches to do 30,000 tags! These were anodized, but even if they were stainless I'd still do them, in fact I'd do them all day long if there was a call for them. Stainless steel and Cermark make me a very happy (and very successful) engraver!

[Rodne Gold]

If there are other existing suppliers - the question you have to ask is why customers will come to you and not to them..what do you have to offer that would make your product/services better than theirs?

[Glen Monaghan]

I find it interesting how often there really isn't anything that compels someone to choose one vendor over another. Sometimes it's simply because they just want to "get it done" and you are the supplier they found first, sometimes just because something about your offerings "catches their fancy" over what your competitors offer even though you charge more for essentially the same product or service.

Sure there are the "soccer moms" who shop around for penny savings, but almost none of my customers seem to have the time or inclination to try to pit one vendor against another (and those that do, I just send elsewhere because I don't care to deal with them).

When I started engraving, I decided what I wanted to offer, set my prices at the lower end of the scale, and worked a lot on promotion and exposure. However, over time, I've pretty much reversed all that and business has skyrocketed over last year. Now I do almost no promotion work, customer demand has re-shaped my offerings, and I periodically compare my own prices and offerings against others' and try to stay on the higher end (but not most expensive) with some distinguishing (and, hopefully, compelling) design and presentation differences to motivate those who are doing a bit of comparing to pay the extra I charge, and those who are simply looking for cheapest price to go elsewhere and not take up my time. I am rather surprised but fortunate enough to get pretty much all the work I can handle (more, actually, eating into evenings and weekends at times) at above-average rates I'm happy with, for services my customers are happy with.

[Ross Moshinsky]

Tell that to dogtagsforkids... I lasered 288 at a time for them and it would only take 104 batches to do 30,000 tags! These were anodized, but even if they were stainless I'd still do them, in fact I'd do them all day long if there was a call for them. Stainless steel and Cermark make me a very happy (and very successful) engraver!

I thought it was implied that I was talking about stainless steel. I can't imagine someone scoring a job for 30,000 Cermark'd stainless steel dog tags. Wrong machine for the job.

[matthew knott]

We used a galvo fibre laser and built a feeding machine to automatically handle the tags, just needed filling every 30 minutes, engraving time was 8 seconds each, took just under 2 weeks start to finish, oddly we got another order 3 days later for exactly the same tag but different artwork for different game company! Happy days and no Cermark

[AL Ursich]

We used a galvo fibre laser and built a feeding machine to automatically handle the tags, just needed filling every 30 minutes, engraving time was 8 seconds each, took just under 2 weeks start to finish, oddly we got another order 3 days later for exactly the same tag but different artwork for different game company! Happy days and no Cermark

We need a LIKE Button here.... Good Job !!!!

AL