Veritas rabbet (filister) vs Record 778

[Don Dorn]

I'm finding rabbets frustrating. I'll be the first to admit that I once purchased a Veritas skewed rabbet plane, but returned it. It was an obvious quality item, but I had trouble keeping the fence secure. Now I learn that sandpaper should be used to skuff the rods.

My question - I have a Record 778 which has a good blade advance, (and a LN blade) but it's frustrating to use because sometimes you get a good shaving, many times you don't. The straight blade also tends to jam fairly easily.

Those of you that have the Veritas - do you find it a basically trouble free rabbeting plane to use, or not? Perhaps it's time to purchase another, but don't want to have the same trouble as I wouldn't return a second no matter what. Of all the speciality planes I use, the rabbet fillister is something I find myself wanting to use a lot, but have by far the most trouble with, and therefore, don't. I could use some advise from those with experience in this matter.

[Chris Griggs]

Those of you that have the Veritas - do you find it a basically trouble free rabbeting plane to use, or not? Perhaps it's time to purchase another, but don't want to have the same trouble as I wouldn't return a second no matter what. Of all the speciality planes I use, the rabbet fillister is something I find myself wanting to use a lot, but have by far the most trouble with, and therefore, don't. I could use some advise from those with experience in this matter.

Yes, basically trouble free. There is some skill involved in cutting consistently square rabbets (I still often don't but that gives me an excuse to use my shoulder plane). It also takes a bit of experience/trial and error to get the projection of the blade out of the side just right. But that just the nature of a rabbet plane.

I've never had issue with the posts slipping or any aspect of setup/use for that matter other than the learning curve aspects mentioned above.

I will say that lately I've preferred to neglect using the depth stop and have instead been marking my depth and planing to it and have also started using a shoulder plane as a non-fenced rabbet plane on long grain rabbets sometimes, BUT I will always want a fenced rabbet plane around and I can't think of any reason why this one won't remain the one I have and use for years to come. It kicks butt on cross grain too.

I also generally have a could take'em or leave'em feeling toward the set screws on my LV planes but on this (really any of the shoulder/rabbet planes), they are a real boon. You really only need to set it up right ones, and from then on as long as you maintain the proper skew and don't mess with the set screws it ready to go right away after rehoning.

Anyway, long story short, I really really find this plane useful and user friendly. I can't really compare it to other fenced rabbeting planes, but this is the plane I learned on, I've had it for several years, and its always served me very well.

Oh yeah, if you get it unscrew that knob off the front. In my hands anyway, it just gets in the way.

(Rob Lee, if you happen to read this I'd be curious to know what was the reasoning for putting that knob on. Was there some specific reason that I'm missing or was it just to provide multiple grip options? Just curious)

[David Weaver]

Skew rabbet - yes, trouble free. Freehand hone and grind it and it'll never be a bigger deal to maintain than any other rabbet plane.

The other rabbet planes (stanley 78, sargent 79, etc) have never had the same sort of solid positive locked tight feel the veritas plane has.

I have a sargent 79 still, but the LN blade makes it less nice to use than the stock blade because it's not intended to have a thick stock blade, and there's no real advantage to having a really hard and thick blade in one in my experience.

[Jim Koepke]

There is a lot going on with a rabbet plane in use.

My rabbet plane is also a Record 778.

As Chris mentioned, getting the blade edge aligned is important. For this, laying the side of the blade area on a flat surface and while pressing on the plane and blade tightening the lever cap has worked for me.

My only blade jam problems have been with a dull blade or taking too deep of a cut. It is imaginable if the the blade is projecting out of the side too far it could also cause jamming problems.

My main difficulty with the #778 is the setting screws seem to always want to come loose. My technique using this plane is similar to using the #45. When the plane is being returned to the beginning of the work, the thumb screws for the depth gauge and fence are given a check by tweaking them lightly toward tightness.

My #778's fence was all metal so a piece of wood was attached.

It is a definite skill to cut a rabbet without the side or the floor tilting off of 90º one from the other.

It used to be a #45 would be my choice for rabbeting, now the #778 does its share.

It just took a bit of time to work out all the kinks.

jtk

[Michael Fross]

I have the Veritas and really like it. One thing that helped me quite a bit to help cut square was to stop gripping the back handle with my right hand (I'm right handed). I was pulling it to the left when I did this.

Now, I open my right hand and just push with it. No gripping.

Michael

[bob blakeborough]

I love it as well and find it problem free. Same as Michael, I found consistent results once I stopped trying to grip the plane, and now I more or less hold/control the plane with my offhand while more or less just pushing with my right hand. I suspect your fence slipping could potentially be exacerbated by a strong grip and a bit too much force, but if that is not the case, a little bit of sandpaper definitely is the cure!

[Tony Shea]

As everyone has said, it is basically problem free once you figure out the proper setup. Problem free...mostly Finicky....yes. The biggest setup challenge is getting your blade's cutting edge parallel to the sole at the same time having the side of the blade extend past the side of the plane a couple thousandths of an inch. I do not agree with Jim's setup method in laying the plane on a flat surface and aligning the blade with the planes side. IME this causes a stepped rabbet and is something I struggled with for a little while. It is certainly easy to true the rabbet up with a shoulder or wooden rabbet plane. Other than that advice the next most important thing IMO is marking out your rabbet with a marking gauge. Planing to a marking gauge line can be extremely accurate and is always the first step in making a rabbet.
IMO, this plane's only problem is in the shavings ejection. This is probably true for most rabbet planes. Shavings tend to build up and end up getting clustered between the fence and the work. As long as you stay on top of clearing your shavings this is a non issue. In fact this is also true for most metal plow planes as well. This is where wooden moving fillister, plows, side escapement moulding planes, etc shine. If properly made they typically throw the shavings out on top of your bench or work, away from the plane and most importantly away from the fence.

But this is more of an annoyance than a problem. So I take back the mostly problem free and say YES, it's problem free.

[Jim Koepke]

I do not agree with Jim's setup method in laying the plane on a flat surface and aligning the blade with the planes side. IME this causes a stepped rabbet and is something I struggled with for a little while.

Pressing on the blade and plane works similar to setting a spoke shave blade. I do not know why, but for some reason the blade edge ends up slightly proud of the side. At least it works for me.

If it isn't proud enough, one could use a sheet or two of paper fore and aft to the blade.

jtk

[Derek Cohen]

The two most important factors when setting up a rebate plane, whether Veritas or Record #778:

1. The blade must project past the body by a hair to get into the corner and prevent a gradual step or slop being planed. Ensure this is lined up with the knicker when planing across the grain.

2. The fence must be deep to ensure that the rebate is square to the face edge. Mine is about 2 1/2".

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/UsingRebatePlanes_html_51063c6f.jpg

I have the Record #778 as well as the Verital Skew Rabbet plane. The Record works very well once set up. Mine has a replacement LN blade, which is a little thicker and A2 steel. This is a good combination for the abrasive woods I use. The Veritas is a better plane overall - easy to set up and just a precision instrument. It is excellent planing across grain owing to the screw blade. The Record requires a little more fiddling, but it works very well.

The main problem with rebate plane is how easy it is to cut yourself!

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/UsingRebatePlanes_html_74de2f80.jpg

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Don Dorn]

Well, I combined several of your suggestions and have a much better working plane. As David suggested, I jettisoned the LN blade and put the original Record in and that almost solved the jamming. It's now got a deeper fence as Derek suggested and I tried laying it out as Jim suggested. Like him, it did seem to work well and I didn't get any stepping in the rabbet.

This said, I must admit that while it works better, it's still a big chore that's not very enjoyable. I caught myself gazing over to the tablesaw knowing that two cuts on each board would end the dilemma, but resisted. I finished the job, but will avoid the task if I can think of another way. An hour for a single adequate matching rabbet is just too much to invest. Someday, I'll get to a show and give the LV another try as it's still heavily on my mind.

Thank you for the input - it's just what I was looking for. Any other hand tool task doesn't seem to be an issue, but for some reason, this skill seems to keep eluding me.

[Jim Koepke]

An hour for a single adequate matching rabbet is just too much to invest.

Agreed.

My bet would be as you do this a few times you will be able to do it much quicker.

jtk

[David Weaver]

Five minutes for a rabbet of significant size is probably a good target, unless it's in hard maple or something. No fiddling is necessary as long as the rabbet is marked well ahead of time (and there's no reason not to do that, it saves you if your plane loses set or something, and also allows you to use less accurate planes). Any problem like a drifting rabbet is easily solved by using an old school straight rabbet plane at the end to correct everything to mark quickly.

The lovely thing about the skew rabbet plane from LV is that it will take a very fine finishing shaving without jumping in and out of cut, or it will take a very coarse shaving. The only thing that it requires is a decent initial setup and some paraffin wax along the way.

I like the wooden moving fillister planes for softwoods, but they definitely require more on your behalf to be precise if the rabbet calls for it (which is fine as long as you've marked your rabbet), and they really don't like a heavy cut in hard wood, especially if it's squirrely. No rabbet plane likes working right into the face of tearout, but you can bull the LV plane through it.

[Tony Shea]

An issue that I run into often with any rabbet plane is tearout. If I had an unlimited budget I would certainly own both a left and right hand rabbet plane. If you are rabbeting around a panel (single board panel) then you're inevitably going to end up planing against the grain on one edge, just the nature of the beast. This is where I get slowed up with a rabbet plane as I end up having to take light cuts especially toward the end of the rabbet. Sometimes the tearout is of no concern as the area will not be visible in the finished piece. But most of the time it is and try like heck to avoid it. I personally like to work with special pieces of wood, curly, birds eye, ribbon stripe, quilted, spalted, etc, which pretty much means grain reversals are inevitable. But if you like to use nice clear grain in your pieces then finding nice straight grained stock is certainly the way to go.

In nice planing conditions you should really be looking at taking as heavy of a cut you can without causing problems. That was the biggest issue I had when first using specialty planes such as the rabbet and plow planes. I was looking for nice clean thin shavings. This is not what you're after. Nice thick clean shavings are the answer to your time issue.

Here's a good video.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=QUTN5nzH-FE

[Derek Cohen]

One point I'd like to make about the deeper subfence is that it works best when - as illustrated in the video by Chris Schwarz - by aligning the board with the edge of the bench. this creates a wide reference surface for the fence and ensures planing square.

Regards from Perth

Derek