Epilog Mini 18 Power shuts off durring cuts

[Joe Walmer]

My mini 18 has a problem where it would shut off right away unless I used 90% power or less. We replaced the power supply then Epilog had us replace the control board. We still have the same exact problem but its getting a bit worse. it worked at 90% for a few months but shuts off many times daily. The laser cuts all power all in an instant beeps reboots and goes back to home with no files ready to cut so a Hard reset.

I just think it stinks to have to send back in the laser tube and that may not be the problem then at that point we would have replaced all the most expensive parts for nothing basically.

So one of my questions is what can cause the laser to short out sometimes in the same exact spot on the same cut and totally shut down and reset instantly.
I already had a mercury laser with ram unseated properly and tech support after paying them was about to have me get a new laser tube so yeah i have some doubts, Not to mention tech supoort I talked to from epilog was kind of funny back when this first happened they said you cant use a surge protector, a UPS , Power conditioner, Isolation transformer etc. or have anything at all plugged into the same power line as the laser or the laser power supply will be powering that too and cause damage, and they said it said that clear in the manual. I am not a laser expert but that dosent sound exactly right and i see people on here talking about using surge protectors. But my main problem with that is it dosent say anything like that in the manual. he said it says you have to have a seperate line run to your house, which we did afterwards, just for the laser. It was all news to me and he made it clear that was why the laser didn't work an it was my fault. I wasn't happy.
and Ideas?

[Dan Hintz]

A short/open in a wire would cause such a symptom... the carriage gets to the right spot, an open/short occurs, and the machine resets.


tech support... said you cant use a surge protector, a UPS , Power conditioner, Isolation transformer etc. or have anything at all plugged into the same power line as the laser or the laser power supply will be powering that too and cause damage, and they said it said that clear in the manual.
I hope you got this tech's name... and never speak with them again about anything technical.

[Joe Walmer]

I thought it may be a short like that too but for the fact if I were to cut say at 85 power and 8 speed it will never short out. If i up the power to 90% Instant Instant reset of machine the second I hit start and the head to moves to the spot to fire the laser then reset.

[Dan Hintz]

If i up the power to 90% Instant Instant reset of machine the second I hit start and the head to moves to the spot to fire the laser then reset.

Oh, if it's instant and not position based, that screams bad power supply and/or RF section.

[Kim Vellore]

Here is a wild thought, a bad power supply with a bad motor/slide. Say the motor takes more current to pass a particular spot in the carriage and that combined with 90% or more power the total current exceeds the available power by the power supply thus dropping the voltage and resetting the MOBO.

Kim

[Joe Walmer]

That brings me around full circle as i replaced the power first then the control board and both times it cuts out if over 90% power and randomly as i am working. It does in fact but not all the time stop right at the same spot on a cut also. So I am just wondering what exactly can cause the laser to reset. and I would hate to buy a new laser tube and have the problem still be there as i already replaced the control board seems like for nothing 1250$ down the drain.

[Dan Hintz]

Have you checked the RF section, though? A bad cap there could cause a power spike unmanageable by even a good power supply.

[Joe Walmer]

Here is a wild thought, a bad power supply with a bad motor/slide. Say the motor takes more current to pass a particular spot in the carriage and that combined with 90% or more power the total current exceeds the available power by the power supply thus dropping the voltage and resetting the MOBO.

Kim

This is what i was thinking also It seems to me to try and find out exactly when its possible for a hard reset and one of the versions in my head was exactly like you put it. However I have seen the laser head get stuck and hit things and also going up and down when autofocus fails so i dont have much hope for it but yes its one of my concerns.

[Joe Walmer]

Have you checked the RF section, though? A bad cap there could cause a power spike unmanageable by even a good power supply.

I thought the control board itself included the rf section. Is it separate and where is it located.

My original problem with the laser before any of this happened was the frequency has no respons lowest or highest it still engraves or cuts the same. My dad told me i was crazy and the epilog tech told me that is not possible etc. But i know it because i was doing it one day and the next poof no options.

So i am getting real mad at epilog tech its starting to sound like signwarehouse all over again. does anyone know of a good tech i can call and talk to once adn for all to start a real ticket here. I took electrical engineering (mostle electro mechanical) and i build gaming pcs for 8 years now and I know when a tech is blowing hot smoke like the talk about the power and suge protection and saying my frequency is fine.

[Dan Hintz]

I thought the control board itself included the rf section. Is it separate and where is it located.

The RF driver is inside the laser cartridge itself, right next to the excitation electrodes... if you're under warranty, let them check it out, don't open it up yourself.

[Martin Boekers]

I had some sporadic issues awhile back, not just on raster or vector but could happen on any one turned out to be a bad off/on switch.Does it do it at the same spot if you engrave from bottom up? Ian or Brian there have always worked through the issues best.

[Joe Walmer]

I had some sporadic issues awhile back, not just on raster or vector but could happen on any one turned out to be a bad off/on switch.Does it do it at the same spot if you engrave from bottom up? Ian or Brian there have always worked through the issues best.

Yes actually i did have to replace the power switch but the problem was exactly the same. I believe the switch went totally bad on us. So there you go just about anything and everything that can cause it has happened lol I am thinking its the RF module by the sound of it. I know for a fact one day it laser cut mirror license plates fine and the next day it had a saw teeth looking edge exactly like i saw on some of our competitors license plates at the chrome shop and we paused and said glad our laser doesent cut like that. After that changing the frequency or dpi didn't really seem to do anything especially in vector cutting. I 99.9% of the time vector cut 1/8"acrylic.

I am waiting for a call from epilog i will ask to do any and all tests they have as far as testing my power and seeing if changing the frequency works or not. we were using 90P 10S to cut acrylic for almost a year but it has random resets like i said and now its worse we are down to 88P 8S and it still randomly stops once in a while at least 1-4 times a day.

Thanks for your help huys its giving me hope as well as I fixed the last laser (mercury pro) without sending in the laser tube the tech just never even had me do a memory check in settings even though we paid them lol.

[Mike Chance in Iowa]

Are you working with different files or is it always the same file? Does it happen when you do different matierals such as wood which has one setting versus paper which would have a different setting. Have you tried using a brand new file built from scratch? Maybe it's a corrupt file?

[Dave Sheldrake]

I'm with Dan on this, it sounds very much like an issue with the RF generator. Hard reeboots in Lasers are usually causes by spikes in the supply to a component, I'd bet on it being one of the caps in the RF unit.

cheers

Dave

[Joe Walmer]

I only laser cut 1/8" acrylic, I use 100 or so different files mainly but yes it will happen 100% of the time no matter what I cut instantly if i put the power above 90%. That being said currently at 88P 8-9S the laser will reset on a certain spot sometimes then I print the same file and it cuts along and will stop at the same place exactly and if you try a third time it will to. So I cant rule out something else causing it yet.

I plan on taking a picture every time it fails so I can see the exact point it fails and what files so I can get a better overall picture. I have tried all the above basically including a new file breaking the objects apart and reversing nodes etc and reversing curves paths etc. and that sometimes fixes a cut that would fail at the same spot. And sometimes those cuts go fine and never fail at that spot but another spot etc. its quite random.

The main fact here never to forget is if i turn the power up above 90% Nothing at all will ever cut not new files not random lines not different settings or cut modes etc. the laser head moves to the correct spot and the second the laser is to fire it hard resets.

[Joe Walmer]

Well we are out of warranty for sure on this so any suggestions or links to checking out the capacitors Dan said not to if it was under warranty. I replaced a capacitor on an asus motherboard and fixed it earlier this year.

So anyone know more about the RF unit, is it a sub assembly that can be removed from the laser module? If its a bad cap like Dan said it may be are they replaceable. I read a post about a 36xt or something epilog where the RF unit was 2500$ I plan on talking to epilog and asking them about the RF unit, they did not call me back today.

I am just a little weary about giving epilog 3500 for a new laser tube or so and it not fix it let alone its a 20 cent part they will fix themselves and resell the tube. That is what htey told me point blank they do with my control unit and this time i guess they benefit because our control unit was just fine and the new one did not fix it instant 1250 loss to me and they just resell the part as working double 1250 gain to them its sickening once you thing about it.

[Allen Rawley]

My mini 18 has a problem where it would shut off right away unless I used 90% power or less. We replaced the power supply then Epilog had us replace the control board. We still have the same exact problem but its getting a bit worse. it worked at 90% for a few months but shuts off many times daily. The laser cuts all power all in an instant beeps reboots and goes back to home with no files ready to cut so a Hard reset.

I just think it stinks to have to send back in the laser tube and that may not be the problem then at that point we would have replaced all the most expensive parts for nothing basically.

So one of my questions is what can cause the laser to short out sometimes in the same exact spot on the same cut and totally shut down and reset instantly.
I already had a mercury laser with ram unseated properly and tech support after paying them was about to have me get a new laser tube so yeah i have some doubts, Not to mention tech supoort I talked to from epilog was kind of funny back when this first happened they said you cant use a surge protector, a UPS , Power conditioner, Isolation transformer etc. or have anything at all plugged into the same power line as the laser or the laser power supply will be powering that too and cause damage, and they said it said that clear in the manual. I am not a laser expert but that dosent sound exactly right and i see people on here talking about using surge protectors. But my main problem with that is it dosent say anything like that in the manual. he said it says you have to have a seperate line run to your house, which we did afterwards, just for the laser. It was all news to me and he made it clear that was why the laser didn't work an it was my fault. I wasn't happy.
and Ideas?

My best guess is that it is a grounding problem. Your machine is experiencing a floating ground. And, while operating, the floating ground begins to charge, so it builds up power as you run the laser more, until the charge is so high that it causes the shutdown.

This situation reminds of a supplier visit that I did in Foshan, China. I had my hands on the steel frame of a 4 x 8 laser cutter equipped with a 200 watt glass tube. It was cutting thick acrylic. While leaning on the table I was feeling a tingling feeling, and it got stronger and stronger. When it was too much, I pulled my arms back. I said to the Chinese folks that there was electricity in the machine. They smiled. Not satisfied with the response, I said, okay go get a multimeter, now. They got one. I set the multimeter to voltage and put on end on the machine and said run the job. I put the other end into the building ground in an electrical socket. We watched the voltage climb higher and higher. Then, my host said, oh, we did not ground the machine.

A suggested approach is as follows:

Step 1:
Earth ground your laser machine. Run a separate ground wire from the laser machine to a known good ground. Your household ground may not be working properly or attached properly. Sometimes, in cheap Chinese power strips, they do not connect the ground wire to save on the money. You could use your multimeter to check to see if it is connected to ground properly.

If step 1 does not solve the problem, then proceed to step 2 below:

Step 2:

Over the years, in working on laser machines and building them, I have seen many machines thoroughly grounded. There is a grounding strip, and wires are run to it. You can see various grounding strips by searching google images and typing in grounding strips. You can purchase them at the hardware store and big box store (Lowes, Home Depot) and Radio Shack. You could even use a terminal block.

Get some copper wire and find the ground on several devices. To start, you could attach to the metal body of the laser tube, the ground from the control card, and the laser machine enclosure (metal part, and be sure to sandpaper away the paint so that you are touching the frame).

If step 2 does not solve it, then proceed to step 3 below:

Step 3:

If these three do not solve the issue, then continue by grounding other components, such as to stepper motor drives.

You can setup a simple test rig to start (not attach to the machine), but let it sit someplace just to test. Then, after it works, you can install it properly to the enclosure on the inside someplace, and make your wiring neat using wire ties.

[AL Ursich]

I am short on time and did not read all the posts.... But this one on Proper Grounding and more specifically "Ground Loop Effect" where due to improper Power Panel setup you can get a Ground Loop where the Ground is actually at a Voltage Potential above Ground....

This can STRESS the USB Connection or network connection between the computer and laser causing a shutdown.....


My second thought having a Electrician Background... A Brown out in your Shop Power... Everything from poor electrical connections in your Circuit Breaker panel to a poor connection in the Wiring and Electrical Plugs and Sockets... When I made Picture tubes at San Diego Sony in 95 we had a monthly electrical inspection with a guy that had a Thermal Image Camera and as a Repair Tech I would open every Power panel and Program Logic Controller Cabinet for him to scan.... Sure enough... More than once he would find a Circuit Breaker or a connection point that was HOT as in warmer then the rest..... He would snap a digital Picture and we would get a report with the IR and color Picture... We had a week to fix it and he returned.... I bet that was the BEST money that Sony ever spent.... we operated 24/7. Now the IR Cameras can be had for silly cheap....


And Lastly.... A Large Current Draw as in a Big AC unit on the Roof may be kicking in.... and out making EMI or Magnetic Interfearance... As in when the Relay contacts OPEN and ARC.... A Troubleshooting method I used is a common AM Radio.... Place it near the machine tuned to STATIC.... Look or Listen for a Change as in EMI..... when the Laser fails....


And you can always half split all this EMI "STUFF" by moving the Laser to someplace like you HOME to test..... That would tell you Laser or POWER....

My last 4 at Sony I fixed Cordless Home Phones and Play Stations. One customer in a High Rise in NYC was having Phone Problems and sent the phone back 3 times... I could find no problem... Finally told her to take it to one of her kids homes... It worked FINE.... On her High Rise was a CELL PHONE ANTENNA..... It was SHOUTING RF and the little phone did the equivalent to sticking it's fingers in it's ears to hear...


So Location or Laser....

AL

[Dan Hintz]

Run one of the failing files at 100P... but leave the door open so the laser doesn't fire. If it still fails, we can rule out the RF section. If it doesn't fail, that strengthens your case.



I only laser cut 1/8" acrylic, I use 100 or so different files mainly but yes it will happen 100% of the time no matter what I cut instantly if i put the power above 90%. That being said currently at 88P 8-9S the laser will reset on a certain spot sometimes then I print the same file and it cuts along and will stop at the same place exactly and if you try a third time it will to. So I cant rule out something else causing it yet.

I plan on taking a picture every time it fails so I can see the exact point it fails and what files so I can get a better overall picture. I have tried all the above basically including a new file breaking the objects apart and reversing nodes etc and reversing curves paths etc. and that sometimes fixes a cut that would fail at the same spot. And sometimes those cuts go fine and never fail at that spot but another spot etc. its quite random.

The main fact here never to forget is if i turn the power up above 90% Nothing at all will ever cut not new files not random lines not different settings or cut modes etc. the laser head moves to the correct spot and the second the laser is to fire it hard resets.

[Dan Hintz]

Step 1:
Earth ground your laser machine. Run a separate ground wire from the laser machine to a known good ground. Your household ground may not be working properly or attached properly. Sometimes, in cheap Chinese power strips, they do not connect the ground wire to save on the money. You could use your multimeter to check to see if it is connected to ground properly.


Looks like I missed the second page of posts before adding my earlier reply.

Do NOT do the above. It creates the potential for a ground loop, which never ends well for sensitive electronics, and can actually cause bigger issues with stability. Assuming the US, all properly wired residences should have a good ground tied back to neutral at the wiring entrance box, which itself is grounded near that location. Should that ground ever lift, you are now running all ground through your laser, a potentially dangerous situation.

If you do not think your machine is grounded properly through the power supply (as many Chinese machines are not), make sure all new grounds you connect end up tieing into the power socket ground wire for your power supply. Do not make a separate ground rod connection.

[AL Ursich]

I agree with Dan 100%.

On the DCS 1024UV or Direct Color Flatbed forum a user Dee had a similar problem with the Printer quitting at about 90% if I remember correct. But the point that the fix was actually moving the USB Driver to a new spot. I believe she also got a new computer after that too.. So everyone has covered the laser side... Here is the Communications side...

AL

[Dave Sheldrake]

Do NOT do the above. It creates the potential for a ground loop, which never ends well for sensitive electronics, and can actually cause bigger issues with stability. Assuming the US, all properly wired residences should have a good ground tied back to neutral at the wiring entrance box, which itself is grounded near that location. Should that ground ever lift, you are now running all ground through your laser, a potentially dangerous situation.

your not kidding :)

Allen, a fix all for Chinese low rent machines doesn't work well when dealing with Western made machines, if your floating ground turns out to be a floating Neutral it's not going to end well for some very expensive components.


Run one of the failing files at 100P... but leave the door open so the laser doesn't fire. If it still fails, we can rule out the RF section. If it doesn't fail, that strengthens your case.

Best advice in the thread Joe.

cheers

Dave

[Joe Walmer]

Well epiolog is sending me another laser tube its on backorder and i will findout monday when it will be sent hopefully that fixes it.

[Mark Ross]

I hate to say it but there is this silly little thing called "preventative maintenance". I have 2 of the 36 EXT's and when the guys have to put a walmart 20 dollar fan in the back to blow air, it is time to pull the laser and do this silly little thing called blow the dust off. Not sure on yours.

[AL Ursich]

I like Dan's Idea... Run the job with the cover open so no laser.... Checks Communications, the Hardware side of the Power Supply, and the Machine... If that runs a full job then we are back to the Laser Part of the Power Supply and the Laser to include the RF Section.

AL