Fret saw vs coping saw

[Daniel Rode]

I had an old, cheap coping saw that broke. I'm looking to replace it and figured I'd just pick up another coping saw. I don't use it real often but it's really useful to have handy. Watching numerous videos on cutting dovetails, I'm seeing a fret saw used and recommended to cut away the waste. Seems to me that clearing out much of the waste makes cleaning the shoulders with a chisel easier. I thinks this would be especially true with finely spaced pins.

To my eye, it's a shallower but with a sturdier, adjustable frame (the saws shown in the vids). They are also more expensive.

Is there any reason I should be looking for a fret saw instead of a standard coping saw?

[bob blakeborough]

I have tried using coping saws and fret saws, and my preference is to the fret saw for removing dovetail waste. I started with the Featherweight fret saw from Lee Valley. Later I bought a Knew Concepts version. While it is a very well built saw and many like it, I found I didn't like the way it worked for me overall, and I have long since moved back to the inexpensive Featherweight saw and I am happy I did. I find it does a great job and I really like the balance and feel of it, and for a sub $20.00 tool, that is great!

http://www.leevalley.com/en/Wood/page.aspx?p=45654&cat=1,42884,42902&ap=1

[george wilson]

The fret saws I have had take blades with no pins on their ends. You can buy jeweler's saw blades in their larger sizes to use. I think fret saws are a lot more versatile. Fret saws usually have a much deeper throat than coping saws. You can also just take the pins out of coping saw blades to use in a fret saw. . The coping saws' blades can be rotated though. Fret saws can't be rotated,but I like the versatility of different blades they can use. Depends upon your needs.

[john davey]

I have been happy with this coping saw from TFWW:

http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/store/dept/TS/item/MS-COPE.XX/Deluxe_Coping_Saw_(360_degrees)_and_blades

YMMV, John....

[David Weaver]

I had an aluminum knew concept saw, and have a copule of fret saws, but I usually like to cope dovetails. If the kerf doesn't allow, I cut straight down into the waste and then over with a coarse rip coping blade. If I do use a fretsaw, I like best the design that zona sells (which is a copy of older german fretsaws, IIRC). I just bend the blades so that the spine doesn't run into a set of tails. One or two snapped fretsaw blades over a couple of dozen pins and tails and I usually get annoyed enough to go back to a coping saw.

I like the design that John shows above, but there is one at HD that I like just as much, despite it being a pretty vulgar looking tool in finish (it was about 7 bucks - unfortunately, the version that they have of it has a black plastic handle). You could turn the blade on it pretty easily and it has better tension than my square framed saw, even though a lot of cheap saws don't.

[Chris Griggs]

I have been happy with this coping saw from TFWW:

http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/store/dept/TS/item/MS-COPE.XX/Deluxe_Coping_Saw_(360_degrees)_and_blades (http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/store/dept/TS/item/MS-COPE.XX/Deluxe_Coping_Saw_%28360_degrees%29_and_blades)

YMMV, John....

Me too. And the 16tpi ski tooth blades are great too!

[glenn bradley]

I too admire the tricked out fret saws but, have gotten along fine with a $10 from the BORG or wherever. For my use, a $100 fret saw is money misplaced. I'm not saying they aren't nice, I just don't do enough of that sort of work that I require that level of tool to accomplish that task.

[Jim Koepke]

The fret saw and coping saw have a few commonalities.

There are a few of each in my shop and most of the time one of the fret saws gets the job.

The biggest difference are the blades. Coping saws have pins in the blades for mounting. Fret saws have a simple clamping method to hold the blades.

Fret saws excel in the area where one is doing "pierced" cutting. This is decorative cutting where the blade is inserted through a small hole and reattached to the saw and an area is cut out of the work piece.

Luck was with me when it came time to buy a fret saw. Someone listed a bunch of them in one lot. There are a few differences between the brands. Most of them do not allow angling the blade. One of mine does. Usually it is easy to "tweak" a blade to an angle with a couple pair of pliers.

Some fret saws have an adjustable back to set the primary tension. This also allows the use of broken blades if they are not too short.

A few other thoughts:

Coping saw blades are available at just about every hardware store in the land. Fret saw blades are a bit harder to find.

Fret saw blades are available in a very wide assortment of sizes and tooth counts. Coping saw blades in the hardware stores tend to be limited in variety. For more selection mail order may be the only choice.

Coping saws tend to be less costly, but some can be up their in price.

The LV feather weight deep throat fret saw looks very tempting. That should be on my buy someday list.

LV also has some blade packages that are good to get a feel for the variety.

The spiral blade is also great for directional changes since it cuts all around. It does leave a larger kerf.

Another thing that seems to work for me is to use the blade cutting on the pull stroke. Not sure if this is how it is supposed to be, but for me it end up with less blades broken.

jtk

[george wilson]

Coping and fret saws all should cut on the pull stroke. Try pushing one,and the frame can bend,causing loosening of the blade,chattering,and likely blade breakage.

Yes,you can take pliers and twist jeweler's saws to 90º bends very close to the chuck jaws,but iffy trying to straighten them out again. We used Hercules brand jeweler's saws in the musical instrument shop. One time they kept breaking. Just tempered too hard. I put a tied together bundle on top of a hot side bending iron,and let them turn spring blue. Then they were fine for cutting wood or pearl inlays. Some of those blades are made quite hard for sawing platinum,and broke very easily. If you need to soften blades a bit,find something that will heat them slowly. Do not go beyond spring blue,or you will ruin the blades by completely taking the temper out of them. The color beyond blue is gray. That means the temper is all gone.

[Mel Fulks]

Yep,but today most seem to use them the other way . The few times I've let someone briefly borrow a coping saw ,I got it back with the blade reversed. Whenever I've been on job sites all the carpenters doing cornice work have handle up teeth down.

[Hilton Ralphs]

I have been happy with this coping saw from TFWW:

http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/store/dept/TS/item/MS-COPE.XX/Deluxe_Coping_Saw_(360_degrees)_and_blades



Me too. And the 16tpi ski tooth blades are great too!

Me three and Joel is having a free shipping how's your father.

I bought the 16tpi and 24tpi blades to boot.

My first woodworking experience was with a fretsaw so perhaps that LV version will cross the Atlantic soon.

[Jacob Nothstine]

I have both, I like the Fret the best. For me it's not the saw but the blades. Make sure you have a good blade on the saw the 16tpi ski tooth blades by TFWW are great. The blades you get from your local hardware store and junk.

Geoege Wilson +1
Coping and fret saws all should cut on the pull stroke.

[ray hampton]

the state police stop a boy that were pulling a log chain down a dirt road and ask the boy why he was pulling the chain, HIS reply, did you ever try pushing a chain
using the coping saw on the pull stroke make sense ---thank you George

[george wilson]

When the tourists asked me why Japanese planes were pulled,I told them that gravity worked backwards on the other side of the World.,

[Andrae Covington]

I have the Olson coping saw from TFWW and a fret saw from craftsmanstudio (http://www.craftsmanstudio.com/html_p/C018001D.htm). I tend to use the fret saw for wasting narrow pin sockets and the coping saw for wasting wider tail sockets. The narrow fret blades are easier to get down into the saw kerf and turn in a small radius to start working over the baseline, but I find them more difficult to steer and keep on a line over longer distances.

[Mike Holbrook]

I wonder why I do not read of the Gramercy 12" bowsaw as a solution to this type work? Gramercy offers 12" bowsaw blades that are 16tpi which I believe are similar to the 16tpi coping saw blades TFWW sells. The TFWW description of the bowsaw suggests that the blade on the bow saw is more controllable due to the greater ability to tension the blade. I have not purchased or made one of these saws yet but I have been thinking about it. I have a 400mm bowsaw from Wood Joy Tools that I have grown fond of for turning cuts that are not quite as tight. Is the reason people do not use the 12" Gramercy bowsaw for this type work the old issue of people not being familiar/comfortable with how a bowsaw works?

[Hilton Ralphs]

Well they're all frame saws so it comes down to horses for courses. Coping saw is smaller and the blade can swivel 360 degrees. The bow saw blades are much thicker (in depth) then coping saw blades so again use this where it's appropriate. Fret saws have the reach, perfect for Marquetry but the blades are thinner and will break more easily if used to cut dovetail waste.

Just get all three :)

[Chris Griggs]

The Gramercy Bow Saw has a blade that is the same depth as a coping saw. I do still, however, prefer to use a coping saw when removing dovetail waste. One certainly could use the Gramercy bow saw for this, but its not a situation where the longer stroke is of any real benefit. A coping saw is just less to wield here and the shorter stroke means I don't have to clear as much clutter off my messy bench.

[Mike Holbrook]

I have a pending order at TFWW and was thinking about the Gramercy bowsaw. The info on the Gramercy 16 tpi bow saw blade says it is 1/8" (.125") wide. The coping saw info. on the TFWW site says the 16tpi blade is .094" wide. I don't think there is enough difference in thickness to make a big difference. I called TFWW to ask about using their bowsaw for removing waste from dovetails and the person I talked to said he preferred the bowsaw for cutting dovetail waste vs the coping saw.

I have a New Concepts saw. The Olson Skip tooth blade I have marked "For close radius cutting in materials 1/8" and thicker", is 12.5 tpi, .038 wide, .016 thick. The 15 tpi blade is marked for materials 3/32-1/2" thick and it is narrower and less thick than the 12.5 tpi. These blades are a great deal smaller than the bowsaw blade but, at my experience level, I find them fragile for removing waste in boards up to 3/4" thick.

Well Chris clean up your bench dude ;-) Or just do like I am and build multiple benches.

[Chris Griggs]

Whether or not you decide to use it for removing dovetails, its a worthwhile buy. I really enjoy having one particularly since I don't own a bandsaw. Very nice for tight curves in particular.

[Jim Koepke]

the shorter stroke means I don't have to clear as much clutter off my messy bench.

That seems to always need consideration on my bench.

jtk

[Chris Griggs]

Or just do like I am and build multiple benches.

Working on it!

[Mike Holbrook]

I think this sawing thing is all relative. Three of us finally wrestled my 374 lb bandsaw down 15 steps and into the shop. The original garage location just wasn't working out. I am betting the Gramercy bowsaw will feel relatively easy to get into working position compared to positioning the bandsaw that first time. I am working on a plan to put a Moxxon or my LV Tail vise on the side of my Adjust-A-Bench (height adjustable), especially for making joints. Certainly is a good point to figure out how and where to use whatever saws one plans to use for joinery before purchasing them. I have found it relatively comfortable to saw things in my bench vise with my larger bowsaw. The relatively large frame can feel a little awkward but it also provides more to hold on to and more mass which may help with control and leverage.

[Ryan Baker]

Whenever I've been on job sites all the carpenters doing cornice work have handle up teeth down.

I would imagine they do that so that they can see the face edge while cutting and still cut into the moulding to avoid splintering. But that doesn't mean it is the right way to do it. Needs to be a pull cut.

I also prefer the fret saw for dovetails. The coping blades are just too big. But if one works in softer woods with larger dovetails the coping saw may make more sense and be more durable. The fret blades generally only break when you get impatient and try to force them. Twisting the blades works well to give some clearance to the handle, but the trick is that you need two saws so you can have one twisted each way. (Well, not really ... but sometimes it is nice.)

[Michael Ray Smith]

Coping and fret saws all should cut on the pull stroke. Try pushing one,and the frame can bend,causing loosening of the blade,chattering,and likely blade breakage.


Oops. George, does that apply to bow saws as well?

[Hilton Ralphs]

Oops. George, does that apply to bow saws as well?

Well if you think about it, all single handed frame saws should be pulled.

If there is tension on the pull stroke (teeth cutting) then the frame will be tensioned even more and thus provide rigidity. However if you install the blade the other way and now push the saw, the tension caused by the cutting motion will effectively lessen the tension in the frame causing an almighty c0ck-up.

[Daniel Rode]

For me, this another instance of learning something I should have known at 14.

It seems blatantly obvious after it's been explained.


Well if you think about it, all single handed frame saws should be pulled.

If there is tension on the pull stroke (teeth cutting) then the frame will be tensioned even more and thus provide rigidity. However if you install the blade the other way and now push the saw, the tension caused by the cutting motion will effectively lessen the tension in the frame causing an almighty c0ck-up.

[Mike Holbrook]

An advantage of using a bowsaw is the stiffer frame makes it possible to tension the blade enough to saw with a push stroke. The Gramercy explanation of how and why they designed their saw the way they did explains:

"There is, of course, the question; should the saw cut on the pull or push stroke? The advantage of saws that cut on the pull stroke is that the blade stays in tension, but in a frame saw the blade is in tension anyway and by pushing you get a lot more power. We tested both ways many times and with the right blade, pushing seems to work much better for most applications."

As I understand it, the Gramercy bowsaw blade is actually a longer coping saw blade fitted to a bowsaw. Certainly I can see why people might prefer using the lighter, smaller saws, especially for the tight work in dovetails. I will try my new TFWW bowsaw at this work when it arrives, if for no other reason than to honor Tage Frid's passionate pleas for his students to learn to use bowsaws in the classes he taught at Highland Woodworking. I love using my Wood Joy bowsaw and I am sure I will like using the smaller TFWW saw as much as Chris does, even if I find it cumbersome for dovetails.

Stu at Tools From Japan has been telling me about the Bachi-nomi (fishtail) chisel design he has talked Koyamaichi and now Ouchi into making, specifically for this type work. I hope to have one of these to experiment with soon too. It is nice to have so many talented, knowledgable people offering solutions to our hand tool challenges these days.

[Hilton Ralphs]

Stu at Tools From Japan has been telling me about the Bachi-nomi (fishtail) chisel design he has talked Koyamaichi and now Ouchi into making, specifically for this type work.

Are these available yet? (Ouchi). Interesting insert about the coping blades in the Gramercy Bow Saw, thanks.

[Mike Holbrook]

Hilton, when I read your post above it reminded me of the information I read on the Gramercy pages.

According to a note I have from Stu a few days back, Stu is waiting for at least a couple "new" designs from Ouchi. It sounds like Stu is having some success lobbying for a few, more western, design features on the more traditional Japanese Chisels. As I understood it some of these chisels are in the final phases of production or maybe even done by now. I think we may see new Ouchi products on Stu's pages soon. Having published my own web site for a few years, I know getting new products displayed on web pages may or may not be as simple as it sounds though.

I understand the Bachi-nomi designs that Koyamaichi (KI) started making fairly recently are inspired by Stu. Obviously fishtail chisels are not a new design in the western world. A well executed version of this design available in superior Japanese product lines is a new thing though. The KI version of these chisels are available now on either Stu or Lee Valley's pages.

I have been reading Toshio Odate's book, "Japanese Woodworking Tools: Their Tradition, Spirit and use". Mr. Odate provides an interesting account of how many master sword smiths in Japan were left without a demand for their work when the reign of the Samurai was abruptly ended. Apparently much of this tradition funneled into the production of plane blades and chisels for the Shokunin (craftsman, artisan, in western terms sort of a master "carpenter", woodworker, carver... tradesman). The book certainly provides insights into the long traditions and disciplines that evolved from: Samurai sword making, those who transitioned to hand tool production and those who used these legendary tools. It certainly gave me a greater appreciation of these traditions and the challenges Stuart must face in his position as a liaison between those practicing these traditions and the western world where the emphasis is often on shinny new designs and fast production.

[Hilton Ralphs]

Mr. Odate provides an interesting account of how many master sword smiths in Japan were left without a demand for their work when the reign of the Samurai was abruptly ended.


Emperor Meiji abolished the samurai's right to be the only armed force in favor of a more modern, western-style, conscripted army in 1873. Samurai became Shizoku (士族) who retained some of their salaries, but the right to wear a katana in public was eventually abolished along with the right to execute commoners who paid them disrespect

Where have the good old days gone?

[Mike Holbrook]

Discussion of Japanese Political Science starts moving us pretty far afield of the OP's topic. Sorry if my comments have moved us that far as that was not my intent. My interest is in the mixing of long standing traditions in Japanese and western hand tool production with the more current trend towards the incorporation of modern techniques, resources and thought. Certainly we can see the value of revivals of traditional hand tool methods and designs from sources like Moxxon, Roubo and Japanese Shokunin. Companies like Tools for Working Wood and Tools from Japan certainly offer us interesting new flavors of hand tool designs that have stood the test of time as well. Fret saws, coping saws, dovetail saws, japanese saws, chisels specifically designed for the task of removing wood waste from hard to reach areas....we certainly have an increasing number of old and new world tool options for performing these delicate woodworking tasks.

The quandary this post raised for me was the relative benefit a coping or fret saw might provide vs a small "turning" bowsaw or "fishtail" chisel. The point of view of a "woodworker" trying to select a reduced tool set that will fit in Chris Schwarz's Anarchist Tool Chest, Jim Kingshott's traditional English tool chest or the even smaller Japanese Shokunin's wooden tool box might be regarded as a common part of the evaluation of any hand tool in our Neander forum.

[Hilton Ralphs]

The one advantage of a small bow saw is that you are only governed by the width of the blade. Therefore, it's certainly possible to make your own frame that's slightly deeper which then in turn not only resembles that of a fretsaw but but has the better reach with the added advantage of a stronger blade.

Do you get wooden bow saws that rotate 360 degrees?

[Mike Holbrook]

I don't have my TFWW bowsaw yet, so speaking of the Wood Joy saw. The metal posts that hold the blade are glued into the handles and reach the blade on the inside of the frame through open holes in the frame. Either handle can rotate freely within the hole it is tensioned in by the blade. So the blade could actually be rotated or twisted endlessly in either direction depending on whether both or one handle is twisted.

PS- Just got the Gramercy bowsaw. I can confirm that the handles rotate the same way the Wood Joy Saw's do.

[Michael Ray Smith]

Well if you think about it, all single handed frame saws should be pulled.

If there is tension on the pull stroke (teeth cutting) then the frame will be tensioned even more and thus provide rigidity. However if you install the blade the other way and now push the saw, the tension caused by the cutting motion will effectively lessen the tension in the frame causing an almighty c0ck-up.

Certainly makes sense. As Mike Holbrook points out, Gramercy is of the view that bow saws work better cutting on the push stroke because there's enough tension on the blade to keep it straight. However, I also recall from other threads about bow saws (Gramercy design and others) that it's a fairly common occcurence for an arm to break on a bow saw that is tensioned with a Spanish windlass. With the force you can create with a Spanish windlass, that is, indeed, very easy to do unless you are careful (or lucky enough) to match the strength of the cord so that it breaks before the saw does. Maybe if the blade is installed to cut on the pull stroke, there's less temptation to over tighten it.

[Mike Holbrook]

Michael I have noticed that TFWW's site and the instructions they send with their saw suggest caution in tightening the windlass on their saw. My Wood Joy bowsaw did not come with these cautions against breaking the saw with the windlass. The Wood Joy saw is built heavier. The Gramercy saw is obviously built for smaller more technical work where the weight savings make more difference.

Wood Joy uses a two piece "windlass" that is larger and offers a few additional features. As I recall an old conversation with Glen, the larger cross piece in the strings spreads the load on the string better generally improving the tensioning function. The sliding windlass makes winding the string a little easier and enables the tensioning device to lock on 1/2 turns. I'm not sure a sliding windlass would help the Gramercy saw due to the more delicate design. The Wood Joy saw also uses Japanese Turbo blades which are designed to work on the pull stroke, which as mentioned above may reduce the need for tension on the saw frame. I find sawing on the push stroke helpful with the smaller lighter saw and delicate work but it may be a matter of taste or experience level. Maybe a picture will help readers see the differences....
271979

[Michael Ray Smith]

Those are both beautiful saws. The windlass is such a simple, elegant method for tensioning the blade. I've really come to enjoy using them. I made one from the Gramercy plans, and I've hardly touched a coping saw or fret saw since.

[ray hampton]

when the coping saw or hacksaw cut on the pull stroke, will the blade stay on the line better ?
I alway had trouble follow the line when the saw cuts on the push stroke EXCEPT when the wood or metal rod was spinning in a lathe, sawing a dowel while it are spinning in a lathe gets easier every time that I need a short cut

[Mike Holbrook]

Ray I think the trick to sawing is practice. I try to practice with the saws I have regularly. In the process I discover which ones work best for me. The other thing I find is some of the older saws I have need tuning. The saws I have made by Tools for Working Wood (TFWW) always seem to cut the truest. The guys at TFWW are very careful about making sure each saw is properly tuned before it leaves for its new home. You might look into Ron Herman's video Handsaws, Tune-up, Setup & more.

Rather than getting further off topic here i will start a new post " Less is More"....