Found some local chisels, seem ok?

[Andy Blake]

I have been busily acquiring an assortment of hand tools either locally through craigslist or on ebay. I have already purchased 3 Stanley #60 chisels off ebay that I was going to rely on as my starter set for mortise and tenon chopping. Today I ran across a set of Robert Sorby chisels locally - 1", 3/4, 1/2, and 3/8.

http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk154/IIocust/Chisels_zps1f87e87b.jpg

The guy selling them is retiring from cabinet making and dismantling his shop. I bought a B-G 500X vise from him for $70 today, which seemed reasonable. He says these sell for $175 and he'll sell them for $80. I don't know how old they are but I get the impression he bought them quite a while ago as an investment in his business. I'm hoping that being older, the quality would be better than a lot of similarly priced stuff available today.

Does this seem like a decent price? Are these better quality than the Stanleys I already have? Thanks for any thoughts.

Andy

[george wilson]

Did you not see the recent comments about Sorby chisels? I think they were in the Woodcraft store thread. Anyway,I,and everyone else thinks they are TOO soft. A set of cheap Narex chisels would be much better. Read the "endless chisel" thread.

[Andy Blake]

Did you not see the recent comments about Sorby chisels? I think they were in the Woodcraft store thread. Anyway,I,and everyone else thinks they are TOO soft. A set of cheap Narex chisels would be much better. Read the "endless chisel" thread.

I just read through the endless chisel thread (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?208049-endless-chisel-debate), thanks. I didn't see that when I tried doing a search, but I think I was spelling it "Sorbey". Interesting comments on the hardness. I guess I'll pass on these, then. Great forum you have here.

[David Weaver]

It is a shame given that those are a little older and look nicely finished (not old by tool standards, but old compared to brand new ones). There are (or used to be, at least) a lot of chisels out there for about $20 each used and pretty good at the same time. Every time I buy used tools lately, I get the sense that maybe things aren't as cheap as they were half a decade or a decade ago.

they are not old enough, though, to fit in the category of "likely good due to age".

[Hilton Ralphs]

Thousands of pale faced Poms probably bought chisels like that so perhaps they aren't too bad. Different story for new ones.

[John Coloccia]

Did you not see the recent comments about Sorby chisels? I think they were in the Woodcraft store thread. Anyway,I,and everyone else thinks they are TOO soft. A set of cheap Narex chisels would be much better. Read the "endless chisel" thread.

Ditto. I'd go with Narex too if I was looking for a deal. Anyhow, I'm not sure how well you'd be chopping mortises with those. It would be better to drill them out and then clean up the sides. If you really want to chop a mortise, it will be much easier with a proper mortising chisel, and personally I like the pig sticker style chisels. Still, you will need bench chisels first so you're going in the right order :)

[Judson Green]

The Narex are worth every penny (cause their so inexpensive) but be prepared to spend some quality time getting the backs flats, probably not the best machining. I have the classic bench chisel (light handle, bevel sides but not tapered) and after that one time event, I enjoy using them. Also have the Robert Sorby mortise chisel and they do seem soft. Narex is also making mortise chisels.

[Hilton Ralphs]

be prepared to spend some quality time getting the backs flats, probably not the best machining.

Veritas calls the part that is usually in contact with wood, the face. Nonetheless, I wouldn't spend more than 10 seconds doing what you suggest as they are specifically designed like that so you don't have to spend time flattening the entire surface. Remember, it's only the first inch or less that's important. The rest can be 'close as dammit'.

[Bill Houghton]

At one time, like 30 years ago, Sorby chisels were pretty good. Too bad you can't tell the age of these chisels.

[Andy Blake]

Ditto. I'd go with Narex too if I was looking for a deal. Anyhow, I'm not sure how well you'd be chopping mortises with those. It would be better to drill them out and then clean up the sides. If you really want to chop a mortise, it will be much easier with a proper mortising chisel, and personally I like the pig sticker style chisels. Still, you will need bench chisels first so you're going in the right order :)

I was going to work on developing the method taught by Paul Sellers (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_NXq7_TILA) using bevel-edged chisels to cut mortices. I'm starting with pine so the Stanley #60s aught to be up to the task for the first couple projects, I would think.

[Judson Green]

Veritas calls the part that is usually in contact with wood, the face. Nonetheless, I wouldn't spend more than 10 seconds doing what you suggest as they are specifically designed like that so you don't have to spend time flattening the entire surface. Remember, it's only the first inch or less that's important. The rest can be 'close as dammit'.

The backs of 16, 20, 24 mm from right to left, the less wide chisels are nicely polished. Probably should have spent a little more time with the 16 mm. But figured good enough.

271598 271599

[george wilson]

I repeat,the soft as butter 1960's(or 50's) Sorby turning tools we had in the Toolmaker's shop were so soft I had to re harden them to get them to a more useful status. So,I'm not so sure they were better 30-40 years ago. Try 19th. C.. Then they were better.

[Robert LaPlaca]

I have a five of the London Pattern Handled Sorby chisels you have pictured, that the boss lady bought me about 15-20 years ago.. As others have stated the steel is really really soft, doesn't matter what angle you attempt to put on the edge, it will roll. Don't have the heart to sell them because they were a gift from boss lady, they kind of just take up room in the chisel tool roll..

[David Weaver]

That's a shame. They are such nice looking chisels. Without knowing what they are, it would be hard for any of us to remove the handle and harden them, though, even if you did own them and felt you had nothing to lose, if one cracks during a quench, it's worthless.

The ones pictured above are some of the nicest-looking newer chisels that I've seen.

[Jim Koepke]

I was going to work on developing the method taught by Paul Sellers (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_NXq7_TILA) using bevel-edged chisels to cut mortices. I'm starting with pine so the Stanley #60s aught to be up to the task for the first couple projects, I would think.

Andy, Welcome to the Creek. Your profile doesn't list your location. You may live close to another member who is willing to let you try using some of their tools. If you are near my location, you could try out a bench chisel and a mortise chisel to see the difference.

Send me a private message if you are in the Portland, OR area.

jtk

[Jim Koepke]

The ones pictured above are some of the nicest-looking newer chisels that I've seen.

Just goes to show you that looks can be deceiving.

jtk

[george wilson]

The turning tools I had to re harden were rectangular in cross section. I wouldn't want to try re hardening bevel edged chisels. The top and bottom surfaces have different amounts of surface area due to the bevels. They are BOUND to warp in the quench due to that. Even a plane iron,with only the beveled cutting edge will invariably warp when quenched. The turning tools weren't wide enough to warp.

Plus,you don't really know what steel they are made of. Water or oil quenching? The wrong quench,like putting an oil hardening steel into a water quench,can crack it,or warp it even more than a proper quench. I seriously doubt the chisels are air hardening. Quenching an air hardening chisel in oil or water WILL destroy it.

[Andy Blake]

Andy, Welcome to the Creek. Your profile doesn't list your location. You may live close to another member who is willing to let you try using some of their tools. If you are near my location, you could try out a bench chisel and a mortise chisel to see the difference.

Send me a private message if you are in the Portland, OR area.

jtk

I've updated my profile now. Rochester, NY is a long ways from Oregon, thanks for the offer though. Great feedback to my question, glad I avoided dropping a lot of money on soft edges.

[David Weaver]

I wouldn't be surprised if they were impulse hardened and then impulse tempered. If anyone ever had the gumption to run through about an inch of them, it might tell us whether or not the center is harder than the first inch or so of the chisel.

I had an HF set of chisels like that, and I know the buck brothers and a lot of others impulse harden their chisels because you can see the blued line on the longer chisels (plus there is a picture of their chisels being impulse hardened on the assembly line on "how it's made").

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k0JmDbtAFug

Whatever they're doing, tempering at 370º C is a lot hotter than we could do accurately, and I know I've seen another video of chisels being impulse hardened (and air quenched) on an assembly line, but I can't find it. I'd imagine they do whatever they can source the alloy for inexpensively, as those buck brothers chisels are sold cheaper than we can get diemaking steel blanks.

Narex shows something that reminds me more of the razor makers. The chisels are heated in molten lead or something and then quenched.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gittWRq2Sjk

[David Weaver]

As an aside, I had an older chisel that I wanted to harden to max hardness to turn into a scraper. It ended up taking two of them to do it (one old stanley chisel and one old rockford forge) because the first one of the two cracked when I quenched it (first quenched in oil, not hard enough, so tried water and cracked it). It hasn't snapped yet, but it will soon, and the crack runs dead perpendicular to the length so it's junk with a capital J at this point. I'd hate to do that to a chisel that looks as nice as those sorby's pictured in this post. Someone will be working in softwood somewhere and be able to tolerate the softness - better to let those people have them.

[george wilson]

I saw a TV show that showed making straight razors. I was surprised that they quenched their razors in oil. That means oil hardening steel,and water hardening steel will get sharper than oil hardening. David,do you think they were making GOOD razors?

I think you have seen the show also.

As for impulse hardening,I could be wrong,but I THINK slower heating to the hardening temperature would be better than very rapid heating. This is just my opinion. The same applies to impulse tempering.

[Robert LaPlaca]

The most amazing part of the Sorby London Patterned Handled chisels, at least the very earliest ones I received, is about one inch from the bevel there was the tell tale indent of being tested by a Rockwell hardness tester. Someone at Sorby was happy with however the chisel was hardened or not hardened..

[David Weaver]

I'm sure strict adherence to the hardening schedule from the metals company would be better, but on an $8 chisel, impulse is probably still pretty good if the right temperatures are achieved. Just a guess. I've never been able to get the kind of hardening that a ron hock or someone does with my O1, it's hard enough, but it's never that bullet hard after tempering, more like a vintage chisel in hardness (which is fine).

As far as the new razors, they are quality. They don't quite have the biting sharpness that the vintage razors do, but they have been screwing around with alloys in razors for a very long time and some of the older vintage razors are a pain to sharpen. I sent Chris G. a razor from japan that was just labeled JAMES in the tang, and the box said "best tungsten steel". It will not tolerate a natural stone, and I'll bet a lot of the customers back when it was made (it's probably 75 years old or so) weren't that excited when they sharpened it unless they were using a paste with a synthetic abrasive in it. It sharpened up fine with modern powders as do all of the modern steels - it's just nicer to me to be able to use a razor that sharpens well on a natural stone and a barbers linen.

My only new razor is a dovo bismarck, it's actually a decent razor and once you get it to sharp, it's fine, it just doesn't get there quite as easily. Actually, I guess I have a new grind from a vintage friodur blank, too, but that's stainless and an entirely different subject.

I'd imagine it's (most of the modern stuff) something similar to O1, as most of the boutique makers are using O1 and advertising that they are. Thiers Issard offered some high carbon content carbonsong steels, but they were priced to the moon, so it's probably safe to assume that most of their regular stuff is out of something much more pedestrian. I don't have the heart to shoot down the boutique makers who are scraping by trying to market fairly coarse looking $250 razors made out of O1, but vintage razors from the turn of the century are really about as good as razors get. I'd assume they were getting the best of the best water hardening very plain carbon steel back then, even better than the files and the supply of proud cutlers who wanted to do the best work possible was not short.

For some reason, though, the english always made softer and somewhat bulky razors. The german and american-made razors were superb back then, though. Fully hard and super fine steel, as good as any that I've ever seen anywhere in anything - they can be sharpened on anything.

There are also current makers who are supplying razors in HSS powder metals and other very highly alloyed cutlery steels. I have no idea what they're thinking, but there might be crossover knife buyers who expect something glitzy if they're going to spend a lot. the super clean plain carbon steel makes the best razors, but the only thing I'm aware of that resembles it is some very high carbon swedish steels and hitachi white steels #1 and #2. White #2 would probably make a great razor, but no better than a NY maker from 1900 would've made, and maybe not as good since it's not specifically designed for razors. I had an expensive japanese razor that was made by iwasaki and the truth of it was that it is no better (and in my opinion not quite as good) as a vintage solingen or NY made razor. Someone on the razor boards had mentioned that a lot of the high dollar japnese style razors are sold to foreign buyers and that actually finding them street level in japan is not quite so easy (that should tell us something).

[george wilson]

Even back in the 1950's,we knew that Solingen was riding on its reputation from 100 years before(as is Sheffield in a lot of cases).

Basically,you are agreeing with me that W1 razors are the best. I expect that W1 razors are harder to make. If they were first blanked out as thin as those 01 razors shown on TV,they'd crack in the quench from the differential between the thin edge and the thick backs. So,I must assume that W1 razors were hardened while their cutting edges were still quite thick. Then,they were ground thin. Time spent in grinding cost more. From knife making,I know that a knife with a thick back and a thin edge will warp convex along the cutting edge side if anything is wrong with the quench. I had a knife do that badly,breaking off hunks of the cutting edge. I got distracted and quenched the blade in the wrong quench. That knife got quite a curve to it!!:)

The old blacksmith's adage "If you would a good edge win,forge thick and grind thin" applied to good old razors made of water hardening steel.

[Jim Matthews]

I think that the inference to be gathered is that there are better quality steels available today, at this price point.

FWIW - I would counter offer the seller and see if they serve your needs.
If they don't hold an edge well, as you use them, you could resell at the auction site.

I'm no fan of the modern steels, they're damned hard and difficult for me to sharpen by hand in short order.
I've got nothing special Marples chisels that I always use - because I like the handles.

Myself, I don't like the feel of hoops in my hands but that's got nothing to do with how they cut.

[Mel Fulks]

Interesting ,David. I bet that "best tungsten steel" was T1, the first high speed steel. Came in about 1900 and has 18 percent tungsten which was considered optimum amount.

[george wilson]

Jim,there is nothing wrong with modern steels. I recommend that you do what I do,and you will have no trouble sharpening any steel at all,including D2- a VERY hard steel to re sharpen(It was developed for making shear blades for cutting other steel).

I start with a diamond stone. Then,I use a black Spyderco ceramic stone,then a white one. Strop a LITTLE on a MDF strop with green Chrome oxide buffing compound rubbed on it. Lee Valley sells it.

I made a Bowie knife out of D2 years ago. I could NOT get that knife quite razor sharp no matter what I did. Then,I got my 2 ceramic stones and they,being many times harder than Arkansas or other stones,sharpened the knife razor sharp in quick order.

I can easily re grind broken Arkansas slip stones into other shapes. NOT SO with the ceramic stones(I have ceramic slip stones,too). They are hard as blazes.

I find the PM VII plane blades quite easy to sharpen,and they stay sharp much longer than regular blades,using my ceramic stones.


Re: Tungsten steel; The Germans mined natural tungsten steel before the 18th. C.. They called it "Wolfram steel". Even stainless steel was mined in natural deposits. We have a fireplace set of natural stainless steel in a house in Williamsburg. Eric Sloan mentioned years ago that he found a shiny 18th. C. chisel left in a stone fence. Back then,they had no idea of chemistry,alloy content,etc..

Tungsten by itself does not make high speed steel.

[Chris Griggs]

My FIL has an old 7/8 Soligen that I sharpened up for him. I shaved with it a couple times before I gave it back to him. It was SWEET. My razors, both of which I bought off of Dave, are very nice old US made steel (made in NY and NJ), but that old Soligen is a beast of a blade. Though I don't think the Soligen was any better steel, it just has great proportions.

I also have an old English razor that Dave gave me. It is indeed softer and more difficult to get really sharp, but once you get it where it needs to be its quite nice as well.

[Judson Green]

I think Sellers uses Narex for his classes. He has a write up of them anyway

[Chris Hachet]

The Narex are worth every penny (cause their so inexpensive) but be prepared to spend some quality time getting the backs flats, probably not the best machining. I have the classic bench chisel (light handle, bevel sides but not tapered) and after that one time event, I enjoy using them. Also have the Robert Sorby mortise chisel and they do seem soft. Narex is also making mortise chisels.Actually, my Narex Chisels arrived with near dead flat backs. Can't say the same about Stanley sweetheart chisels....I've seen some of those that have terrible backs. Chris

[Chris Hachet]

I think that the inference to be gathered is that there are better quality steels available today, at this price point.

FWIW - I would counter offer the seller and see if they serve your needs.
If they don't hold an edge well, as you use them, you could resell at the auction site.

I'm no fan of the modern steels, they're damned hard and difficult for me to sharpen by hand in short order.
I've got nothing special Marples chisels that I always use - because I like the handles.

Myself, I don't like the feel of hoops in my hands but that's got nothing to do with how they cut.
Again Irwin Marples Chisels ain't bad....

[Chris Hachet]

Jim,there is nothing wrong with modern steels. I recommend that you do what I do,and you will have no trouble sharpening any steel at all,including D2- a VERY hard steel to re sharpen(It was developed for making shear blades for cutting other steel).

I start with a diamond stone. Then,I use a black Spyderco ceramic stone,then a white one. Strop a LITTLE on a MDF strop with green Chrome oxide buffing compound rubbed on it. Lee Valley sells it.

I made a Bowie knife out of D2 years ago. I could NOT get that knife quite razor sharp no matter what I did. Then,I got my 2 ceramic stones and they,being many times harder than Arkansas or other stones,sharpened the knife razor sharp in quick order.

I can easily re grind broken Arkansas slip stones into other shapes. NOT SO with the ceramic stones(I have ceramic slip stones,too). They are hard as blazes.

I find the PM VII plane blades quite easy to sharpen,and they stay sharp much longer than regular blades,using my ceramic stones.


Re: Tungsten steel; The Germans mined natural tungsten steel before the 18th. C.. They called it "Wolfram steel". Even stainless steel was mined in natural deposits. We have a fireplace set of natural stainless steel in a house in Williamsburg. Eric Sloan mentioned years ago that he found a shiny 18th. C. chisel left in a stone fence. Back then,they had no idea of chemistry,alloy content,etc..

Tungsten by itself does not make high speed steel.Diamond stones and stropping were the entry point to sharpening for me.....after that....no hair on my left arm....

[Judson Green]

Actually, my Narex Chisels arrived with near dead flat backs. Can't say the same about Stanley sweetheart chisels....I've seen some of those that have terrible backs. Chris

Had to hear that about your Narex's perhaps its just my luck. Got mine ~4 years ago. Did you get yours more recently? And for the record I'm not saying that I'm unhappy with the Narexs in fact I'd like to get the ones I don't have... someday. Maybe Santa will bring em, if I've been good.