Scandinavian Vise

[Brian Holcombe]

I'm contemplating a few vise options and I like the idea of a Scandinavian vise, but I'm wondering some of the dimensions that you guys have built them to. It looks like the Lie Nielsen Screw has 13.75" of working space and I expect that the supporting arm will have to be at least 12/4 and the face maybe 5/4, so I'm working with about 10" of travel.

I don't think I need 10" of travel, so I've been contemplating how much I would want to cut it down to for a vise like this.

Any insight is appreciated.

[Jim Koepke]

I have not been able to understand the advantage of this kind of vise. That being said, most of the time my desire is for a vise that opens further, not less.

Surely the types of things we do lead us to our choices of bench design. Currently one of my common occurrences is edge planing boards that are longer than my bench. A Scandinavian vise would not allow me to hold and hang half of the extra length beyond each end of the bench.

Imaginably for some tasks it is the bee's knees.

jtk

[Chris Vandiver]

Here you go Brian; http://www.leevalley.com/us/wood/page.aspx?p=31134&cat=1,41659

[Roy Lindberry]

I'm contemplating a few vise options and I like the idea of a Scandinavian vise, but I'm wondering some of the dimensions that you guys have built them to. It looks like the Lie Nielsen Screw has 13.75" of working space and I expect that the supporting arm will have to be at least 12/4 and the face maybe 5/4, so I'm working with about 10" of travel.

I don't think I need 10" of travel, so I've been contemplating how much I would want to cut it down to for a vise like this.

Any insight is appreciated.

I built mine with the Veritas hardware (http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.aspx?p=31134&cat=1,41659), which measures 13" overall. My spacer block is 7 1/2" and my arm is 3 1/4" thick. I have a 1 1/8" thick chop which leaves me with 5 1/2" of travel. That seems to match pretty closely with the plans in Landis' book. I'm not sure that I could have gotten more than an extra inch of travel.

[Tony Shea]

If I was checking out this type of vise this is the direction I would go.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=xkyg59mC-mw

[Hilton Ralphs]

If I was checking out this type of vise this is the direction I would go.


That's quite the endorsement.

I don't have one nor have I tried using one but it certainly looks awkward having to stand that far away from the action. It may of course just have something to do with my Tyrannosaurus arms.

[george wilson]

Klaus ought to remember to leave vise handles vertical. Otherwise,someone walking near one can get it in the groin.

Personally,I think the Scando vise is not what I want on my bench. Limited opening,and all that frame out in front where it is just in the way.

WHY is that bench left with NO MIDDLE in the top?

[Brian Holcombe]

Thanks gents! It seems that 5-6" of travel is normal.

The image that changed my perspective on this was seeing a workbench used by the staff at Carl Hansen & son that appeared to be quite old and it featured a Scandinavian shoulder vise. They have been building some of my favorite furniture for the past 60 years.

I also like the fact that it does not limit my ability to clamp very wide boards upright while not sacrificing the ability to clamp small boards. Jim, FWIW, I would think you could clamp the front a long board in this style of vise and clamp the back half of the board with a holdfast through the leg, or with a long clamp over the back half of the bench for jointing the edge.

if it ends up being something that I dislike, I will turn it into a wagon vise and find a new vise for the front.

[Jim Koepke]

WHY is that bench left with NO MIDDLE in the top?

My thoughts too until it was realized this is just a demo bench to show off the vise screws.


Jim, FWIW, I would think you could clamp the front a long board in this style of vise and clamp the back half of the board with a holdfast through the leg, or with a long clamp over the back half of the bench for jointing the edge.

That wouldn't work for me since my current bench is 5'. Some of the pieces of ash being planed are 10' long. One of the other things that isn't done as much now that there are a bunch of saw benches in my shop is to use the front vise for holding stock while it is being sawn.

Sometimes the front or tail vise on my current bench is removed to allow other holding options.

It is kind of fun knowing that even though my current vises have their limits, they also allow for some other freedoms. This is likely what others see in their choice of vises, (or vices for that matter!).

For me, that much hanging out in front of the bench would likely catch my hip every other time I walked by.

jtk

[Tony Shea]

That's quite the endorsement.

I don't have one nor have I tried using one but it certainly looks awkward having to stand that far away from the action. It may of course just have something to do with my Tyrannosaurus arms.

I personally am not in the market nor would I plan a Scando vise in any bench I have in mind. I am just a fan of Lake Erie vise screws, it is the leg vise screw that I use. I like my leg vise a lot and would probably like the Scandinavian vise just as well. But if I was to build a new bench right now I think the twin screw vise is the cat's meow. To be able to have that much room between vise screws is something I would love to have attached to my bench permanently, not the Moxxon version. I just don't have room in the shop for another accessory stuffed in the corner. And I might revisit my original though as to installing a traditional tail vise and use the Lake Erie wagon vise instead. Seems like it's very slick.

[Winton Applegate]

Scandinavian Vise
Yes ! ! !
Rails (and screws) in the way of holding the work ? ? ?
Nah Dude nah.

How to hold a plank longer than the bench ?

La this (note the width of that lil board)


http://i801.photobucket.com/albums/yy298/noydb1/IMG_2300_zpsf7baa3b4.jpg (http://s801.photobucket.com/user/noydb1/media/IMG_2300_zpsf7baa3b4.jpg.html)


Brilliant for drawers
http://i801.photobucket.com/albums/yy298/noydb1/IMG_2301_zpsb35a6c39.jpg (http://s801.photobucket.com/user/noydb1/media/IMG_2301_zpsb35a6c39.jpg.html)


Lets see a rails in the way do either task with out futz.


Two must have books for a well rounded perspective :
http://www.amazon.com/Workbench-Book-Craftsmans-Woodworking-ebook/dp/B0042JU7NU/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1379993556&sr=8-1&keywords=the+workbench+book
http://www.amazon.com/The-Workbench-Complete-Creating-Perfect/dp/1561585947/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1379993611&sr=8-1&keywords=the+workbench

Yes I have the Chris Schwartz book Workbenches and have spent many a happy hour reading it.
Good historical perspective.
Build a Klausz
Oh and I'll bet you have learned to steer your ________ (censored for delicate sensibilities)
so you won't have any problem running into the vise with it.

[Winton Applegate]

I think asking your self what you want to build with the bench will tell you the sizes to make it.

The next photo is a small version I used for a while to see if I liked the general idea. I did. The next photo is showing jaw details. The clamp, that goes all the way through my Japanese style planing beam, is just a humongus Bessey clamp with the end of the rail ground off so the sliding bit can be removed from the rail.

You can even set up the large wooden vise so you can remove the whole thing. I did for a while. The long all thread that goes through the top spacer plate and front rail goes through this hole that is bored all the way through the bench. Just bolt it on or take it off. Trick huh ?

Last photo is of my bench with no predatory "protrusion".


http://i801.photobucket.com/albums/yy298/noydb1/Thisisbetterthanthat_zps7279432f.jpg (http://s801.photobucket.com/user/noydb1/media/Thisisbetterthanthat_zps7279432f.jpg.html)


http://i801.photobucket.com/albums/yy298/noydb1/IMG_0368_zpsb04536c1.jpg (http://s801.photobucket.com/user/noydb1/media/IMG_0368_zpsb04536c1.jpg.html)


http://i801.photobucket.com/albums/yy298/noydb1/IMG_1290_zpsc0caf5fb.jpg (http://s801.photobucket.com/user/noydb1/media/IMG_1290_zpsc0caf5fb.jpg.html)


http://i801.photobucket.com/albums/yy298/noydb1/Stillunderconstruction_zps23c6a864.jpg (http://s801.photobucket.com/user/noydb1/media/Stillunderconstruction_zps23c6a864.jpg.html)

[Jim Koepke]

Winton,

A couple nice suggestions. Since my bench has a minimal apron there isn't a lumber jack in my shop. My boards are long like that, but not as substantial.

Look closer at the picture with the drawer. You may see that that is in a tail/side vise. Those can be useful, but may not be on my bench.

If my budget would allow such, my choice would be pattern maker's vise. More than is really needed in my shop, but it would be kind of fun.

jtk

[Brian Holcombe]

Winton, you have a tail vise only?

[Chris Hachet]

Winton,

A couple nice suggestions. Since my bench has a minimal apron there isn't a lumber jack in my shop. My boards are long like that, but not as substantial.

Look closer at the picture with the drawer. You may see that that is in a tail/side vise. Those can be useful, but may not be on my bench.

If my budget would allow such, my choice would be pattern maker's vise. More than is really needed in my shop, but it would be kind of fun.

jtkI really agree with the pattern makers vise thing, but wonder if it would be as robust as a leg vise in general use.

[Jim Koepke]

I really agree with the pattern makers vise thing, but wonder if it would be as robust as a leg vise in general use.

That is why there are four corners on a bench. If possible, each corner could have a vise.

Of course then, one might want to expand their bench for a few more holding options.

jtk

[Jim Matthews]

My first bench had the traditional Scandesign front vise.

I was constantly banging into it.
If you've got room to run long boards off the opposite end, it might not be a worry.

I found that for edge planing, it left a great length unsupported off the far end.

My shop is small, and I like surface planing - the Scandi vise always seemed to be catching my pockets,
or whatever was in my pockets, or next to my pockets....


I've got a leg vise with a wheel which is just above knee level - haven't run into it in two+ years.

[Brian Holcombe]

I have worked mostly in small shops where everything was tight and up against a wall, so I've decided in this scenario that the bench will be in center of the room. I have a good amount of room around it on all sides.

[Winton Applegate]

Brian,

No I have like three face vises :
The large purple heart one (this is a photo of it removed from the bench) (see "trick" comment in my first post and the hole all the way through the purple heart bench where it can be bolted on).
The small face vise using the Bessey clamp on the planing beam (also works the exact same on my short Japanese planing beam that can be carried to a work site, clamped on my Workmate folding benches and clamped on top of any of my work benches for a higher work surface for working small detailed stuff ).
I also have a dovetailing bench that I bolt to my welding table that has twin screws on top and on the front face to see how I liked twin screw esk set ups.

Sorry I wasn't more clear on what I was attempting to illustrate. A photo is worth a gazillion words and all that. Trying to keep my posts short. You know . . . best not to encourage me to get going at the keyboard in any epic sort of post.

[Winton Applegate]

Jim,

there isn't a lumber jack in my shop

As in :
"I am a lumber jack and I'm OK la, la, lala la "
(probably count your blessings there).
;)

I am thinking you mean the sliding bit with the holes in it for pegs ?
The Klausz doesn't need that. He uses the "bench slave" shown. It is a free standing support of an adjustable nature. There is , as you probably know, a step on the side that one just quickly lifts or drops to hold the first end of the plank, then lift the second end of the plank and clamp in the face vise. No pegs in an apron needed.


Look closer at the picture with the drawer. You may see that that is in a tail/side vise.

Yes but I love the things. If you notice the OP said Scandi vise but did not specify face or tail vise. I suppose I should have stuck to the face vise but couldn't help promoting the tail as well. For the life of me I can not understand why a wood worker with the skills that are present in Sawmill for the most part would not want to build such a vise for them selves. The metal rails in the way vises are good for factories and institutions that need to buy cheep and get running quick or clamp humongus blocks of wood to cut and carve patterns for castings,
for the fine craftsperson such things are best bolted to a chain and used to keep ones bass boat from drifting . . .
but for fine work, cabinet making of the higher order . . .
there is nothing better than the craftsperson made Klausz vises.

As far as running into the thing. Where I work (at my day job for moneys) there are metal clamping arms sticking out at just the exact right hight that if one kneels down and then stands up, with no awareness of their surroundings, the said poor sod gets nearly knocked out.

We have a new young lady working for us and she just missed killing her self on one of them the other day. People klock themselves once or twice, (three times is just toooo painful to watch to be around ) but eventually . . .
they learn to expand their awareness (or die from head injuries . . . not pretty ).

I am a city boy and have never been around horses except to have fallen off one bare back, again not pretty to watch (but highly entertaining for the observer). Good thing the animal was standing still at the time. Vary patient beast I must say.
:o
. . . where was I ? . . . oh yah . . . I imagine being around a face vise is like being around the aft end of some four leggeds . . . got to stay out of range of the hooves flying up. One learns eventually.

[Jim Koepke]

Well, it is to each their own on what systems of holding their work are employed. If we all did things the same way, with all our shops using the same size and floor plan, this would be a very boring place to visit.


I imagine being around a face vise is like being around the aft end of some four leggeds . . . got to stay out of range of the hooves flying up. One learns eventually.

When young, some of my time was spent working around horses. When walking behind one, one should stay close and in contact/communication with the animal. If the horse does kick, there isn't enough room for its hooves to reach full force. The problem with people "staying out of range" is horses can kick quite a bit further than most folks realize. What they think is out of range is right at the point of maximum horse hoof power.

For my space and some of the work done, my current set up works amazingly well. It is simple wooden vises that came with the bench. One of the things to my liking is both vises can be removed quickly. This comes in handy often. Either vise can be used to hold a piece at the edge of the front or tail for crosscut or rip sawing. Both vises can be used with dogs to hold an odd shaped piece or even recently to hold a "shelf" that was getting dados for my addition of drawers to my tool storage.

They also work great for holding shovels and such for sharpening. Though my recently mounted vise may get that job.

Some advantages of the Scandinavian vise are clear. For me, the same result can be achieved with what my current set up offers without having to come up with workarounds for my current practices that would be hampered by the Scandinavian design.

It is probably like the debate over whether or not to have an apron. People mention that it prohibits clamping ability. Work is clamped to my apron all the time. The clamps are used horizontally for some things. My apron isn't so deep that a clamp can not be used vertically. Of course, my apron isn't like the walled off bench front seen on some benches.

There are a lot of personal touches to be considered when one designs and makes their own bench. Surely the ideal bench for a luthier is different than one for making Windsor chairs.

Lot of different aspects of woodworking that will always be subject to opinion.

Leg vise, wagon vise or any of the others

Squared dogs or round dogs...

Pins first or tails first...

Each of us hopefully can find what works best for our own needs.

For my work style, a Scandinavian vise would be more often in the way than being a help to my work.

A wagon vise or the "traditional" tail vise like on your bench were somewhat seductively calling to me in planning a bench. The problem is my current simple vise can do most of what they do but the others can not do some of the work my current style vise can do.

Simplicity has its versatility.

jtk

[Brian Holcombe]

Thanks for the clarification, I appreciate the insight.

[Winton Applegate]

I know; hard for you guys to believe.
Why haven't I had the predatory face vice handle going for the crotch problems that others have (other than the fact that I spend all my time on the couch typing into this forum and so there is no danger of me ever coming into actual, physical, contact with the diabolical beast )?

I started in a tinkin', and a lookin' and then a photographin', if you can call what I do photography. Here is some of what I came up with.

You guys benches are toooooo high.

But before I get into that I want to address the "I wouldn't want all that vise arm in my way to reach the work" comment.
First photo is the work clamped in the vise.
http://i801.photobucket.com/albums/yy298/noydb1/IMG_2344_zpsee5096ad.jpg (http://s801.photobucket.com/user/noydb1/media/IMG_2344_zpsee5096ad.jpg.html)
Second photo is my perspective leaning forward over the work; with no effort or over extension I can easily see the back side of the work and the back side of the dog hole further on even. So for those who haven't stood at a vise like this but are thinking of making a Klausz my two cents is NO PROBLEM here.
http://i801.photobucket.com/albums/yy298/noydb1/IMG_2343_zps0e29d9ea.jpg (http://s801.photobucket.com/user/noydb1/media/IMG_2343_zps0e29d9ea.jpg.html)

In the third, forth and fifth photos . . . "things" . . . are well above my face vise. If I run into the arm I would catch it in the thigh. It looks like the head of the vise handle would catch me where it hurts but the width of my thigh spaces me well out of harms way and again I catch it in the thigh. Even if the screw is backed out into "the middle of the room" again it would catch me lower than the pain zone. Keep in mind I am leaning forward some to take these photos so are not totally best case snari-O
http://i801.photobucket.com/albums/yy298/noydb1/IMG_2341_zpsf83abde1.jpg (http://s801.photobucket.com/user/noydb1/media/IMG_2341_zpsf83abde1.jpg.html)
http://i801.photobucket.com/albums/yy298/noydb1/IMG_2353_zps1e441f72.jpg (http://s801.photobucket.com/user/noydb1/media/IMG_2353_zps1e441f72.jpg.html)
http://i801.photobucket.com/albums/yy298/noydb1/IMG_2356_zps6c225572.jpg (http://s801.photobucket.com/user/noydb1/media/IMG_2356_zps6c225572.jpg.html)


For some one who mentioned not leaving the vise handle horizontal.
Those handles are TOOOOO LONG; I have never seen the need for all that LEVERAGE when the length of handle I have here is just fine.

Lastly since you are all staring at my crotch let me show you my B ______
(edited for sensitive ears) (substitute: round, solid brass, control arm end, knob things).

I am showing you three different surface finishes on these B_____ (knobs). I have not been able to decide on the final finish. One is still fairly polished with kind of map like continent features and a bonus was areas of the prettiest turquoise blue in small areas. The second one is more of a smooth, slightly greenish, dull matt all over and the third finish is the pair I put onto the handle and are as they came to me in the mirror polished finish. Kind of "brassy". Some days I like the shiny ones and other days not, so I experimented with something different.

What do you guys think ? Assuming no women ever come here. Apparently they have better things to do than argue about stuff like this.

The handle is ebony by the way.

http://i801.photobucket.com/albums/yy298/noydb1/IMG_2347_zps35526721.jpg (http://s801.photobucket.com/user/noydb1/media/IMG_2347_zps35526721.jpg.html)

http://i801.photobucket.com/albums/yy298/noydb1/IMG_2352_zpsee8c8027.jpg (http://s801.photobucket.com/user/noydb1/media/IMG_2352_zpsee8c8027.jpg.html)
http://i801.photobucket.com/albums/yy298/noydb1/IMG_2360_zpsce9cdbba.jpg (http://s801.photobucket.com/user/noydb1/media/IMG_2360_zpsce9cdbba.jpg.html)

PS: I measured my dimensions for what it is worth; the opening between jaw and bench face is 4-5/8 inches (117 millimeter)
Jaw length is 10" ( 255 mm)
Jaw height 4-21/64" (110 mm)

The largest fine woodworking thing I would ever make is my bench; beyond that will be smallish cabinets, book shelves, small chests of drawers etc., no carousel ponies, ship's figureheads or industrial valve paterns.

[Brian Holcombe]

I think the shiney brass looks better. Thanks for the dimensions, and for what it's worth I was always taught to leave the vise loose so that if you bump into it, it won't be a life-changing experience.

[Brian Holcombe]

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c181/SpeedyGoomba/12ac66e3096e8a916f94ff60320a90ee_zps8c6312ce.jpg

[Winton Applegate]

Yes sir !

(the automated gaurd dog said the above post was too short and had to be at least ten characters so i hope this satisifies it.)(interesting it let you post just photos. Well not just photos; theee photos. I inadvertently poked "go advanced" so may be that was the difference.)

anyway I repeat,

Yes sir !

[Jim Koepke]

interesting it let you post just photos.

Brian posted a URL to a photobucket image so the URL is likely longer than 10 letters.

jtk

[Brian Holcombe]

Thanks Winton! A vise screw should arrive next week sometime.

Winton, how did you do the base for your bench? I assume the top of the base becomes the lower half of the guide for the scandi vise, correct?

[Winton Applegate]

Brian,

:confused: I have several answers for you :

Whaaaaaaa . . . ?

Oh yah . . . aaaaaaah right ?

:D You seem to have caught me with my pants down. Please allow me to compose myself and I will get back to you.

:eek:
Jeeves ! Take a letter.


Let me see where is that file folder with my notes and drawings ? Dig, dig, dig . . . page, page, page, shuffle, dig, page, shuffle. (harumph . . . not here).

:mad: Where is that book ?
. . . page, page, page . . .oh God, oh Bob . . . I MUST ANSWER THIS QUESTION ? WHAT WILL THEY THINK, what will they say ?
AHHHHHHH here we go ! The answer :

yes


ha, ha, ha, aaah, ha, ha, ha,
yes Allow me to elaborate, I am afraid to my chagrin and everyones glee . . .
. . . where to begin ?
Once upon a time . . . no that's not right . . .
Well anyway, we needed a dining table. I was building the work bench when SWMBO, I won't use her real name (witness protection program and all that :p) for short we will call her Queenmasteroftheuniverseandbabybunnytrainer, some of you have probably heard of her.
Anyway she had bucks she wanted to invest in a dining table, ;) "honey if you got the money I got the time", so I found some wood and spent her money ( given proper funding I am a natural at acquisitions ). Bubinga. We liked the look. I had . . .


well I digress there . . . back to the question


My wood guy drives by the house on his way home so he delivered the wood. It "acclimated" for a while at the house. Quite a while.
I think Queenmasteroftheuniverseandbabybunnytrainer described the passage of time with several different units of measure; she had quite a bit of opportunity to try them all out . All of them escalating in order of magnitude. Nearly all of them prefaced with the words "too many". Well more like


T O O M A N Y


:( My humble opinion is that she greatly exaggerated. Well not greatly exactly. Slightly.
So once I got the top of the old Klausz flat and in fine fettle I started in on the bubinga.

I made the table. :)

:rolleyes: I was in the mean time "experimenting" with bench hight for my tastes.
You may recall my mentioning my two matching Workmates and the eight foot planing beam ?
As a base for the beam, with enough weight on the rails bellow, the two workmates make quite a stable base.
Are you starting to get an inkling of what I am trying not to admit to here, in front of Bob and everybody ?

In some of the Klausz bench builds that I had read the author recommended building the base first so as to have the base to make the top on.
Well being of a "different" turn of mind than many, most, that is to say sane people, I built the top first.

Here I should feel embarrassed but feeling embarrassed isn't one of my strong points so I will just bare my _______ and post a photo of my base. Well not MY base but my bench's base.

:cool: I have never been impressed with the basic NON TRIANGULATED design of the traditional work bench. I think this is one area where an enclosed base such as the Shaker or the base under Philip Lowe's otherwise highly questionable bench that is being revisited in the FWW magazine right now, has validity. Braced by the panels or sheet stock enclosing the supporting structure. Sort of.

The FWW article could even get me to buy that issue by the way. I think the "benefit" of pulling out the drawers to support the work ( fill the drawers with saw dust more like ) and putting them behind the work so they can't be opened during the mission decidedly stupid . . . there must be something, possibly very enlightening for me that I am not seeing here. So my continued study of Mr. Lowe's choice in bench.

I am a big fan of Philip Lowe so this must be the case ( am missing some huge revelation) so I am all for landing on planet Lowe once again for some education.

OK that was a diversion. I can no longer avoid the inevitable . . .

The Workmates have angle bracing. You know like just about any other structure in this modern world that we want to resist wobbling around during significant forces from multiple vectors so why not the woodworking bench. This keeps hitting me over the head when I start to look at the traditional base. I know if one makes the stretchers WIDE enough and keep them TIGHT then all is well. ? really ?

I may deviate significantly from the traditional design when I make the base. I have not even bought the wood for it. It could be made from , (will the blasphemies never end ? (((( metal))) sh, sh, shhhhhh ).

What ? I didn't say anything, Nope. That wasn't me.

The other question I haven't entirely answered that I had at the beginning of my bench build was :
Do I want an adjustable height bench base? I don't think I do. I have several more general work benches that are higher and assembly is often done on an even lower bench, see Klausz once again. Any uppy downy on the main hand plaining bench is probably going to compromise rigidity so again the temp base you see before you.

I am ashamed . . .
(not)

PS: I am experimenting with a smaller file size for the photos because my photos have been showing up here huge even though I have been chosing the next to smallest format . . . so here is the smallest format. Yes I don't want you to look too close as well.

PPS: The current vise jaw is temporary / experimenting to see if it will split from in line screw holes . I think I have oriented the grain so it won't and I like the screws on the horizontal rather than diagonal (see Rob Cosman note in photo of my page of notes (see there really was a file folder I was looking through ))


:o Note, with much glee I am sure, the brass pin on the left of the jaw that runs under the spacer plate and the stack of washers for counter weight on the bottom right.
Yah, ya . . . laugh if you must (I do) but it works.

There . . . I used all the faces. Next time my goal is use all the faces IN ORDER. A person has to have goals.

http://i801.photobucket.com/albums/yy298/noydb1/IMG_2366_zpsb0f2bc7d.jpg (http://s801.photobucket.com/user/noydb1/media/IMG_2366_zpsb0f2bc7d.jpg.html)


http://i801.photobucket.com/albums/yy298/noydb1/IMG_2364_zpsaf67e110.jpg (http://s801.photobucket.com/user/noydb1/media/IMG_2364_zpsaf67e110.jpg.html)


http://i801.photobucket.com/albums/yy298/noydb1/IMG_2365_zps5597d9ed.jpg (http://s801.photobucket.com/user/noydb1/media/IMG_2365_zps5597d9ed.jpg.html)

[Brian Holcombe]

Winton, thanks for the info and pictures, and stories. I've been researching bases and found an image of a very old scandinavian bench being used by the workers at Carl Hansen and son.

Their solution, and a sexy one it is, was two very large stretchers attached with through tenons that are tensioned with keyed wedges (I've built a few of these joints, but I always forget the technical term for it). They were probably 8/4 and about 10" tall, and the keyed wedge about 12" tall.

The legs were trestle style legs.

I like the idea of triangulated supports, but just as you mention I've never seen them on a woodworking bench. Maybe for practicality? In fact woodworking projects seem to use a very small amount of triangulation by comparison to metal work. I have found a very good triangulated table base that may help you in your quest that I will post next.

[Brian Holcombe]

http://www.bassamfellows.com/pdfs/10_CB-341_Stripe_Tables.pdf

[Winton Applegate]

Sounds like you are describing "tusk tenon" joinery. Good stuff.

In any case one can't have too much beef in the base.
Maybe I will order one of those masive solid blocks of marble that people carve statues out of, throw it over on its side and anchor my bench to the top of that.

Lets see THAT wiggle or ootch across the floor !

[Brian Holcombe]

I just googled Tusk tenon, that is exactly the joint. The thickness of the stretcher remains the same (not chopped away like a normal M&T). So I plan to put this into effect soon-ish.

I agree with that, a little heft is quite helpful when you are really putting these things to work. If you can move the marble, than the joint you are fitting is too tight, lol.

[Winton Applegate]

If you can move the marble, than the joint you are fitting is too tight, lol

Lol
Or when planing if I can move the marble then it may be time to do a little edge touch up on the strop.

[Brian Holcombe]

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c181/SpeedyGoomba/null_zpsa051df63.jpg

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c181/SpeedyGoomba/null_zpsed1aa1e1.jpg

Work in progress, but getting there I suppose.

[Hilton Ralphs]

That joint is beautiful man.

[Brian Holcombe]

Thank you!

[Frank Drew]

Very nice work so far, Brian; I think you'll be very happy with your bench. I also put a shoulder vise on mine and never found it a problem; I used a board jack when edge planing longer stock.

[Brian Holcombe]

Thanks Frank! So far i just have the structure attached and walking around it has proven not to be an issue for me. I will make plans to build a board jack to clamp into the tail vise when working on longer stock lengthwise.

[Winton Applegate]

You are inspiring me.
What kind of glue ?

You know me I got to say stuff . . . wall to wall carpeting in the wood shop. Only in America, only in America.

[Brian Holcombe]

Lol, I was originally intending to remove it, but it's actually quite nice. I will eventually remove it and paint the floor.

I used tite-bond III on the dovetail.

[Winton Applegate]

Thanks for the glue info.

About the painted floor . . .
for hand planing it gets tricky. My floor is just concrete but is very smooth and too slick for hand planing. To get enough traction I have to toss down some sand. A rough surface would be better.

Heck . . . maybe the carpet is better than smooth concrete and paint is only going to make it slicker unless you have grit in it and that eats brooms and mops.

to quote H. S. Thompson

" . . . imposible to walk on it, no footing at all. "Order some golf shoes," I whispered. "Otherwise, we'll never get out of this place alive. You notice these lizards don't have any trouble moving around in this muck-that's because they have claws on their feet".

end quote
:D
Well maybe not that bad.
I don't have a good solution. Some people go so far as to put a wood floor over the concrete. Toshio Odate did.

[Brian Holcombe]

Heavy, wide plank hardwood would be my preference as well, but I have never really been into wood over concrete. You can get a pretty good footing on the rug, and occasionally I'll put a piece directly on the floor when sanding it with the orbital.

here's my progress.

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c181/SpeedyGoomba/null_zpsc7e8cd3f.jpg

next step after smoothing and finishing up the base will be the skirt. I'm still debating square vs round bench dogs. I think I have settled on a tail vise, but that could change.

i plan to hang a deadman on the right side for quick and easy clamping of long boards on the side.

[Winton Applegate]

Splutter !?!?
:eek:
Round dogs ?
Oh . . . no . . . no . . .
Rectangular dogs; that's the ticket. Purple heart works well. Make them your self. Short strip of hacksaw blade bowed and screwed to near the bottom of the dog. Grind off the teeth first.
Round ? ? ? ?
Nah, dude nah.
:)

PS: that means a much thicker dog area.
Back to the drawing board.

[Brian Holcombe]

Square it is then, lol. I have some real Iron wood I might make into dogs. Other than that u have various rosewoods in small chucks laying around.

[Jim Koepke]

Square it is then, lol. I have some real Iron wood I might make into dogs. Other than that u have various rosewoods in small chucks laying around.

My thought on bench dogs is they should be sacrificial while not sacrificing my plane blades. Bench dogs are easy to make whether they be round or squared.

I kind of cringe watching Roy Underhill with his big iron bench dogs. All too often one of my dogs has been clipped by a plane to even consider something that could take a big hunk out a blade.

Exotic woods are nice for projects that will be enjoyed for a long time.

jtk

[Brian Holcombe]

My thought on bench dogs is they should be sacrificial while not sacrificing my plane blades. Bench dogs are easy to make whether they be round or squared.

I kind of cringe watching Roy Underhill with his big iron bench dogs. All too often one of my dogs has been clipped by a plane to even consider something that could take a big hunk out a blade.

Exotic woods are nice for projects that will be enjoyed for a long time.

jtk

I suppose something more readily disposable would be better.

Have you guys any experience with a deadman on a sliding dovetail? Seems like it will work well in theory.

[Jim Koepke]

I suppose something more readily disposable would be better.

Have you guys any experience with a deadman on a sliding dovetail? Seems like it will work well in theory.

I think one of the design principles of a deadman is being able to be lifted off of its bottom runner if it needs to be removed. Then there is all of the shavings and saw dust that could jam the works.

jtk

[Brian Holcombe]

Just kicking around ideas, but my other thought is to build a board jack. to clamp into the tail vise.

[John Walkowiak]

I have to comment and defend square, steel bench dogs. Antique ones or ones made like antiques. That is, the toothed side is tapered a bit from top to bottom and the teeth are filed SHARP like a knife blade. The top row of teeth will look like the HF stops that blacksmith Peter Ross made for the Benchcrafted Rubo bench build. If sharpened properly, like this, they need only be up 1/16" from the bench top to hold tight. You can safely plane 1/4" thick material without risking damage to your plane. No matter what the thickness, if they are kept below the top of the wood you are planning, they can't jump up and bite the plane or blade. I have never, ever, hit the top of the dog. And I use Spiers planes, which I do not want damaged! If I am needing to hold something that I don't want teeth marks in, I place a piece of leather in-between the dog and the work. I would suggest buying a pair of steel dogs and sizing the holes to them. You can always make wooden dogs to fit those holes. Good luck, the bench looks great so far.
My thought on bench dogs is they should be sacrificial while not sacrificing my plane blades. Bench dogs are easy to make whether they be round or squared.

I kind of cringe watching Roy Underhill with his big iron bench dogs. All too often one of my dogs has been clipped by a plane to even consider something that could take a big hunk out a blade.

Exotic woods are nice for projects that will be enjoyed for a long time.

jtk

[Brian Holcombe]

Thanks John. I haven't eliminated steel dogs. Speaking of which, are there any places which sell a router template (gasp) for square bench dogs?

[Winton Applegate]

I will combine a few responses into one post (because I am feeling lazy (stayed up way too late last night)).

Board jack :
Debris getting in the slide : I haven't made one and don't really intend to. Not against it just not my need right now. But some where, maybe in Chris Schwarz's book I remember seeing the bottom slide configured so stuff can't collect but just falls away from the track. Seems to me the rail was triangular shaped with the point up with an inverted V shape in the jack that mated with it. By the way this is the way the "ways" are designed on the metal lathe so the metal chips are wiped off and fall to the collection tray bellow.

Wood dogs :
I would save your rosewood and ironwood for projects unless it is just straight grained and not interesting to look at. The purple heart I used was plain Jane and fairly cheep. I used it because it is very strong.

I am not against steel bench dogs, Frank Klausz uses them, I used wood to see how they hold up and grip (just fine) and I planned to put one in about every dog hole so I could just push up the one I needed rather than a couple of metal dogs. I could see myself pulling the metal dog out, droping it on the bench dinging the bench, or on my foot etc. each time I needed it in an new location.

I agree that if the top of the dog is kept well bellow the wood being planed probably fine using steel. I have never run into one of my wood dogs with a plane blade.

At some point I will probably get (or make ) some steel ones to try out. Or make some out of brass or bronze. I just haven't done it yet.

PS: as I have posted before . . . I cheated when I cut my dog holes and used a nice big O dado stack in the table saw. That is what table saws do best after all ; a quantity of identical repetitive cuts.

[Winton Applegate]

router template (gasp) for square bench dogs?

I think you are over thinking it. Mine are just lengths of rectangular stock. No "head" or shaped grip area.

I considered making them with the head but seemed to make more sense just straight. I didn't relieve the top of the dog hole for the head. I figured I could chop it out later if I wanted that. I don't so far.

[Jim Koepke]

I have to comment and defend square, steel bench dogs. Antique ones or ones made like antiques. That is, the toothed side is tapered a bit from top to bottom and the teeth are filed SHARP like a knife blade. The top row of teeth will look like the HF stops that blacksmith Peter Ross made for the Benchcrafted Rubo bench build. If sharpened properly, like this, they need only be up 1/16" from the bench top to hold tight. You can safely plane 1/4" thick material without risking damage to your plane. No matter what the thickness, if they are kept below the top of the wood you are planning, they can't jump up and bite the plane or blade. I have never, ever, hit the top of the dog. And I use Spiers planes, which I do not want damaged! If I am needing to hold something that I don't want teeth marks in, I place a piece of leather in-between the dog and the work. I would suggest buying a pair of steel dogs and sizing the holes to them. You can always make wooden dogs to fit those holes. Good luck, the bench looks great so far.

John,

I don't think you have to defend square, steel bench dogs. Your comment is informative and appreciated, thank you.

Steel, square bench dogs seem to work fine for many people, but I do not think they are my cup of meat. First problem for me is my bench came with round dog holes. Dog holes are kind of like cutting dovetails, people can argue forever about square or round and pins or tails first. For my way of thinking the fact that square dogs never turn is a big selling point.

For me even with the dogs well below the planing action, occasionally evidence of clipping is seen on a dog. Another problem is I am not always the only one working on my bench. Sometimes it is another woodworker seeking information or taking a tool for a test drive. Sometimes it is my grandchildren learning to do what grandpa does in the shop.

jtk

[Christopher Charles]

Check the benchcrafted site and search on "bench dog" for a plan and video for using a router to cut dog holes and plan for making wooden dogs. I've just switch from round to square and much prefer the square so far, in no small part due the springs on the new square ones. I made a batch of 14 dogs in a morning out of left over hard maple using the plan (one for each hole).

Looking great!

Cheers,
C

[Brian Holcombe]

Thanks guys, plenty to think about. Winton, I like the idea of the grip area and I may actually buy a set of dogs to get started, so I'm dedicated to the slight cutout in the bench since most of the commercial dogs have them.

Ideally I would like to have a dog for every hole on the bench, but I will probably start with two.

[Karl Andersson]

Brian,
sorry I'm late jumping in to this, as I built a Douglas Fir Scandinavian style bench a couple years ago with a lot of the design and tech issues you've been discussing. I posted here about it - the post title starts with "finally", that should help you find it if interested in seeing the whole thing (it's also in a gallery on my profile page).
273207273208273209

A few points:

- The tusk tenons work great - I widened the stretcher ends to make more bearing surface and it is rock-solid.
- The sliding deadman works well for most jobs- I sometimes have to put a block between the peg and the bottom edge of narrow stock because I didn't want the face edge of the bench to look like Swiss cheese. The track is, as Winton stated, an inverted vee shape and it clears shavings well. At 3 inches wide, the rails tend to gather shavings a lot, so i do keep a brush handy for that.
- I use two rectangular dogs with no metal grips or sandpaper facings and they hold the work just fine. I added a peg to use as a planing stop - just a dog with a 1/4 in tall "head" on it (to keep it from sliding down into the dog hole). I plan to add a separate planing stop some day, either a flip-up one or MAYBE a friction-fit dog-style one.
- The shoulder vise faceplate is trickier to shape and tune that you'd think - could be that the vise screw hardware I got is OK, but not great; the socket the the faceplate screws to binds with the tip of the screw and the whole thing tends to "climb" away from the rotation. I've got more tuning to do on that.

You've got plenty of great advice so far, please let me know if you have any functional questions.
Karl

[Brian Holcombe]

Thanks Karl, I appreciate the insight.

I'm pretty happy with the tusk tenons, once i gave them a few taps with the mallet they locked in and this thing doesn't wiggle in the least.

I suppose the sliding deadman does require a top and bottom track, so I think I will just instead use a clamp-in board jack.

Like this one;
273238

When it comes to the vise, this doesnt fit well in neander territory, but I plan to cut everything associated with that in a bridgeport milling machine.

[Karl Andersson]

Brian,
sorry, I posted from a computer that wouldn't let me see how far you've gotten - looks great. Regarding the sliding deadman, it does require one trestle (the end vise one) to be made with bridle joints at the top so the stretcher is in line with the edge of the bench top, but there doesn't have to be a top track- just a routed groove. the bottom track is just a stick of moulding, basically. But those are just creative details - the real advantage is the shoulder vise when used for more than just edge jointing - I've used mine for marking and cutting dovetails, holding boards up to 6' for ripping vertically, and instead of a shaving horse when using a drawknife. I plan to make a saw vise accessory that uses the shoulder vise as the gripping power eventually as well.
great job so far, I'm sure you'll enjoy it when it is finished. I think these discussions on which vise/ bench is best and why are useful, but in the end we choose what appeals to us and learn to work with it.
Karl

[Brian Holcombe]

Thanks! Your thoughts are similar to mine in how in envision using the bench and that's actually what landed me on the shoulder vise. For instance; I plan to build a wall hung cabinet next with dovetails on the case which is going to be 20" deep. This allows me to clamp that in all the ways I need to but is not too big of a hulk to work on small projects.

Basically I needed a bench where I could build everything from exterior doors to small humidors.

[Brian Holcombe]

Square dogs. Not to bad to make, I made up a jig based on lie nielsen's drawings. Next to chop out that corner for a tail vise.

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c181/SpeedyGoomba/null_zpsb973b184.jpg

[bridger berdel]

That is why there are four corners on a bench. If possible, each corner could have a vise.

Of course then, one might want to expand their bench for a few more holding options.

jtk


heh. I'm seeing a star shaped bench- as many corners as possible, and a different vise on each....

[Winton Applegate]

Ha, ha, . . . I have to laugh at my self . . . at my irrational fears :eek:.
When I see a strip of wood that has the dog holes in it glued on the front of the bench, as yours is, I get the vapors and have to lye down on my fainting couch.

Intellectually I KNOW :) that the glue is stronger than the wood.
But :o
then I hear past discussions like "the glue breaks down over time and the mechanical joint must be relied on to keep the ______ what ever together.
And
I know :) that takes like a life time or more to happen.
And
that is a huge area of glue contact area that you already have there.

:cool: I would have glued the plate with the dogs milled in it full face to the bench then glued a cap piece over the dog hole slots to tie those together and add more bench surface to the edge.
Speaking of that it will be interesting to see over time if you want the dogs set back further from the edge toward the middle of the bench. Meaning if you find you want more bench surface to the outside of the dogs. Can always add more wood to that end. Probably not but . . .

:p Over all I say GOOD JOB ! ! ! :p
and don't mind me.
Ahhhh Beulah ! Thank you. You are a God send dear. Now draw the drapes while I lie here and recover from that mean old shock to my delicate sensibilities.

[Winton Applegate]

Bridger,

I saw stars once. I hit a pot hole on my bike and landed on my back like a judo flip onto the pavement. There were other factors involved but that is the gist of the thing. The high level athlete I was riding with (quarter backed for the Air Force Academy here back in the day and so had seen some hits in his day) who watched this happen said "soooo I suspect you won't be continuing the ride today". It was a ride in early morning and I still had to put in a full days work so I decided his view was to be taken seriously.

Starsssssss . . . yessssss . . . WHAT ?

The other thing that came to mind when you said that, ha, ha, ha was . . . I tend to collect old books with hobbyist home work shops from the thirties, forties and fifties. Often they have a lazy susan surface some where with several power tools mounted on it and you just rotate the one you want forward to the bench area.

Why not do that with vises ? Ha, Ha.

[Brian Holcombe]

Ha, ha, . . . I have to laugh at my self . . . at my irrational fears :eek:.
When I see a strip of wood that has the dog holes in it glued on the front of the bench, as yours is, I get the vapors and have to lye down on my fainting couch.

Intellectually I KNOW :) that the glue is stronger than the wood.
But :o
then I hear past discussions like "the glue breaks down over time and the mechanical joint must be relied on to keep the ______ what ever together.
And
I know :) that takes like a life time or more to happen.
And
that is a huge area of glue contact area that you already have there.

:cool: I would have glued the plate with the dogs milled in it full face to the bench then glued a cap piece over the dog hole slots to tie those together and add more bench surface to the edge.
Speaking of that it will be interesting to see over time if you want the dogs set back further from the edge toward the middle of the bench. Meaning if you find you want more bench surface to the outside of the dogs. Can always add more wood to that end. Probably not but . . .

:p Over all I say GOOD JOB ! ! ! :p
and don't mind me.
Ahhhh Beulah ! Thank you. You are a God send dear. Now draw the drapes while I lie here and recover from that mean old shock to my delicate sensibilities.

I always think the same thing, but I have additional strips underneath with contact on two surfaces, also the end nearest the shoulder vise will be wedged in. I often see them done this way, so I'm not worried, if it fails I will change it.

[Brian Holcombe]

This plane has been in my family for five generations, today it is mine.

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c181/SpeedyGoomba/null_zpsea92dbec.jpg

[Jim Koepke]

That plane deserves to have a thread of its own with a few more pictures, possibly more details like a timeline and telling us about the person named on the side.

jtk

[Brian Holcombe]

Thanks Jim, sorry I didn't get to your post sooner. Sometimes viewing this site through an iPad has me missing a few things.

I'll put together a few pics and some details of the plane.

In the interim here's the results of the bench, near completion. I ended up making the tail vise jaw along with most of what was needed for the Scandinavian vise.

The lie nielsen screw was way to long, so I cut it down and tapped threads for the bolt in the end at a friend's machine shop. Also did not like that they have the one end left bare so I built some brass peice for that.

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c181/SpeedyGoomba/null_zpse33bb83d.jpg

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c181/SpeedyGoomba/null_zpsf8673e18.jpg

[Winton Applegate]

Oh come now . . . more photos of the details you mentioned please (and the plane; for sure the plane ). I think I see the brass piece . . . is it at the hole where the screw goes through the arm ?

Looks like you have a super useful bench there.
OK, but I have to say it . . .
is that a flag pole or a vise handle ? Could serve both purposes, though the former for sure.
Is that the stock length from LN ?
I really like the look and combination of the components of the handle.

[Chris Vandiver]

Nice bench!

[Hilton Ralphs]

I'm worried about the plush carpet.

[Chris Griggs]

What a wonderful bench!

[Brian Holcombe]

Thanks fellas!

Winton, those handles aren't long, they're 'impressive'. I like them, very impressed with the quality and may end up cutting them down in length.

here's a closer shot, mind you the bolt hole in the foreground is soon to be covered.
http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c181/SpeedyGoomba/null_zpsc313fe6c.jpg

Hilton, it concerns me as well, but as they say; happy wife, happy life.

[Winton Applegate]

I'm worried about the plush carpet

I was worried about that earlier on but have, in the interum, received professional counceling and meds and am feeling much better about it now. In time, and with further counceling, I feel that I may, one day, perhaps, be able to accept it if not wholly and fully embrace it.

[Winton Applegate]

Content is, no doubt, erroneous and probably down right dangerous. Under no circumstance implement any of the following. To do so is to jeopardize life, limb, property and even the continued existence of your quantum wave form on this event horizon.


Impressive handles
Yes ! That is the word I was searching for.
Ha, Ha,

Beautiful ! Nice finishing plates etc.
I might steal that idea for mine. It bugs me that my screw is not centered in the hole for it.

Part of what got me considering the actual, practical, handle length needed for such a vise was when I discovered the hand wheels some pros use in place of a handle such as yours and mine. The effective lever length is quite small but it doesn't actually take much. Also witness the length of handle on the average metal worker's or machinist's vises. I crank much harder on the metal parts I work on than I would ever need to on a wooden component.

With the possible exception of using the tail vise to pull old furniture joints apart for repair.
One . . . I figured I could always put in a longer handle for that rare event and
two . . .I would never need that kind of leverage on the shoulder vise . . . I would rip the thing apart/break the all thread rod.

But what do I know . . . I "wasted" time flattening the top of my bench.
Don't I feel a fool.
eeeehhhhhyah
;)

[Brian Holcombe]

Lol, entertainment + content.

you're welcome to take the idea and run with it for the brass peice. I had the immediate same feeling in regard to the vise handles, you could probably rip the thing off the bench with that much leverage, so I may cut them down just so that anyone who lends me a hand doesn't overdo it.

I bored the hole for this on a milling machine, even still the spade bit deflected slightly on the exit. I used a 3/4 shank 6 flute cutter to make the 1-3/4" seat for the brass and on the opposite side for the hardware, that bit did not deflect, lol. And I found the hardware to be out of 90, so I ended up having to shim the backs of the hardware after all that.

The machine shop experience for me outweighs my ability to let things be slightly 'out' so I understand your flattening to .010 or so. In fact I'm looking forward to picking up an 8' straight edge for the same purpose.