Yet Another VFD Question...

[David DeCristoforo]

In my last VFD question thread, Colin Prince replied:


"You don't need a 5hp VFD to run your 5hp motor. A 3hp VFD will run it just fine, but obviously it will only deliver 3hp. The VFD will supply up to and including 3hp, and the motor will still work fine, as long as the load on it is 3hp or less."


So here's the new question. Is this verifiable? I would love to keep the 5HP motor against the day I can afford to "upgrade" the VFD to a 5HP model. But if I can safely run the 5HP motor off a VFD with a 3HP rating, that would be excellent. As long as nothing would be damaged, this would be ideal. In truth, a 3HP output would be more than sufficient for my present needs so if it is indeed true that the 5HP motor can be safely run with the 3HP VFD, then I'm keeping this motor!!!

[roger oldre]

Do you read answers to your other posts? I believe this has been answered quite completely.

[David DeCristoforo]

Well... yes, actually, I do read them. And I have to say that your reply has been most helpful. Just loaded with exactly the kind of information I needed. Now I can proceed with total confidence. Thanx!

DD

[Ryan Mooney]

In theory yes.. in practice maybe-probably. The HP isn't the most useful metric to judge by you want to look at full load amps and compare the VFD to the motor and see how far off it is. Depending on the settings you may have trouble spinning up (the inrush requirement looks like a short to the vfd and it can shutdown output) which can somewhat be mitigated by doing a slower ramp up - if the vfd can throw enough juice at the motor to get it to kick over at all (there can be a bit difference between "5HP" motors). If it does spin up and you put sufficient load on it it can draw to much line voltage and also cause the VFD to failsafe shutdown. Much of that can likely be gotten around with clever programming but may be a bit of a pain. If it was way off I'd vote not but 3hp to 5hp seems doable depending on the actual motor requirements.

Google search for "undersize vfd" and you'll get some interesting hits - a big no from automationdirect forums, tentative yes with caveats from practical machinist forums (and lots of good suggestions there about what settings to use to protect the vfd)

Having said all that lots of people do it so it is definitely possible within reasonable confines..

Don't you just love unequivocal answers.

[Mike Cruz]

As I said before, DD, the VFD doesn't know diddly about HP. It knows about amps. So, just program your VFD to recognize the maximum amps of your motor and you'll be fine. As a matter of fact, you can overclock you VFD so that it can deliver more amps and thus more HP to your motor.

[roger oldre]

Well... yes, actually, I do read them. And I have to say that your reply has been most helpful. Just loaded with exactly the kind of information I needed. Now I can proceed with total confidence. Thanx!

DD
Thats great! I would never have known that!you took the time to answer! and in this thread!

If that is true why start yet another thread and ask a question that has been answered in a previously generated thread? I am not trying to be mean. the information is there and you have already generated a following on that(those) threads of interested parties who wish to help. people are tracking those threads to keep up to speed and then you pop up in another thread with a new question that has or will be covered in the original thread. now your energy as well as others has to be split amongst the different threads to find the conclusion. I haven't really gotten involved before because I didn't think it was needed, and I am sure that by now you are convinced that surely it isn't there are those with much more experience than I that can answer your questions. If you want to get your machine going and are working to that end ask the right questions. when questions are asked answer them so that others can figure out where you are in the learning curve. In another thread you said that you didn't understand the low voltage control wiring section or it wasn't clear. You were given answers as to where to find it and without acknowledging that you now did understand moved on to what appeared to me at least "ok I don't understand but I think i can do without learning that right now how do I bypass the classroom and get my diploma". I have read he manual for your VFD. pretty straight forward for many, and understandable if you take the time to understand it. Posting my help at that point would have prooved usless because you would start a new thread about that once you got your VFD functioning Ive built two lathes in the last 6 months. One will take 26" in diameter inboard and 8 feet off the ways, 7 feet between centers, it does fine on two horse. there is no bragging rights to a 5 hp lathe lol. Over the years I have built equipment for ATT, IBM, Rapalla, several sawmills and other companies. I do it all the time. I work with VFD's every day, from fractional to over 100 hp. The VFD isnt the total answer from low speed to high speed one or the other it will fit well with the proper reduction. to combine both you will have to use a reduction system with at least two stages either two different sized pulley arrangements or a jack shaft. Just for the record if you want to fully utilize five horse with sub 100 rpm final you wont do it with small pulleys or a single v belt or poly v drive think about going to a final drive with a chain or wide (like 3 inch wide cog belt) If you want to get right down to brass tacks post some of the specs for the machine you are working with like the pulley sizes and belt cross section swing capability etc and keep all the information in one thread so it is easy to follow and resource. If you really want to make the best you can and not just cobble something together lets get the right info, the right questions and you will get the right answers. Really put to use the combined reference of information you have available to you and listen.

[John Keeton]

Let's keep it civil folks. Perhaps David wanted additional input and felt the title to the other thread might hamper responses.

Thanks.

[David DeCristoforo]

The thing is, I know little about this stuff. I know how to install a breaker, run a wire, connect a receptical, that sort of stuff. When Mike says "adjust the out put to match the amperage of the motor, I look in the manual but I don't see anyplace where it tells how to make this adjustment. Maybe I'm missing it or maybe Mike's unit ius different. But I end up being baffeled by it all. Sorry if this seems dense to you but I'm fishing for very specific information. If you don't have the time to bother with it, that's fine but then maybe you coulod make better use of your time than by spending it writing a 20 minute diatribe about how offended you are by it all.

[Brad Adams]

Actually when you over clock a motor with a vfd you aren't increasing the hp. You are increasing the cycles, thus increasing the speed. A 5 hp motor pulls a lot more than a 3 hp motor, and frequency drives are pretty sensitive. I would bet something burnt out in the vfd with the five hp motor on it.

[Mike Cruz]

Welcome to the Creek, Roger.

I know you are new here. I understand your frustration. Please understand that there are no "rules" around here saying that you have to stay within a thread. DD isn't doing anything that 100 people before him haven't done. Not saying it is right, but he isn't a trail blazer with this supposed issue. Heck, I've done it, too.

If you do some research (or maybe DD or someone else will post the links), you'll see that this whole lathe project that DD is working on goes back YEARS. He didn't build the lathe. Another Creeker did. That Creeker gave up on the project and "gave" the lathe away. DD decided to salvage it. IIRC, DD DID post the specs of the pulleys (pics and all) of what he conjured up.

The problem is, adding everything (continuing new questions, etc) in one thread would mean that only the die-hards would follow the thread, and DD wouldn't get the audience needed to answer individual questions. If all of DD's questions regarding VFDs were in his original thread about this lathe, many to most would never have seen it because they would have perceived that the thread had run its course already. For that matter, if DD's new VFD questions weren't in new threads (assuming the questions weren't answered in the old threads), then posting the new VFD questions would pose the same problem...smaller audience, and only those that were interested enough in the first question to pop back in to see how it is going. On that note, please understand that just because someone answers a "question" here on the Creek, (or anywhere on the Net for that matter) doesn't mean they know what they are talking about. Nothing personal, but with 5 posts (and that includes your personal address to DD), clout and respect haven't been "established" yet. Not to say that 5000 posts here makes you a genius or that it means you know what you are talking about, but it DOES mean that people get an understanding of you. They get a feel for your MO. They can figure out what your strengths and weaknesses are. And they can figure out who to trust and who to blow off.

Hey, this is my two cents regarding your "rant". Not that I'm against rants...I've had my share here. Just my observations about yours. And as I just noticed JK's opening words to his last post here about "keeping it civil", let me leave you with this... The Creek is very PC. This is not a place for vulgarity, accusations, slander, and attacks. Not saying you did any of that or implying that you will/would. Rather that, since you are new and knowing how some other forums are, I just wanted to give you some insight.

Again, welcome to the Creek! BTW, I'd love to see pics of your lathes!!!!! Built my own, too! Well, with some UBER help...:cool:

[Harry Robinette]

When I put mine in the guy's at Automationdirect said that running the vfd at a slow speed would burn the vfd way befor it should.I believe you said your motor is a 3450 rpm isn't that going to cause a problem.Just asking.

[Mike Cruz]

Brian, let me explain my statement... AND let me clarify, too. ;) I've added 4 VFDs to pieces of equipment. Two on lathes, one on a disc/belt sander, and one on a band saw. Let me rephrase that. I've HAD THEM PUT ON...by someone else. Me being me, I was there for every step of the hook up. I ask questions. I get answers. I understand it enough to know what was done, but still probably couldn't go through the hook up myself.

What was explained to me was this... A 2 hp motor pulls about 6 amp. A "1.5 hp" VFD is rated up to 4.5 amps. If you over clock it (meaning that it will allow a "surge" of power), it will for small bursts (30 seconds or so) before "failing". So, a 1.5 hp VFD, (designed to regulate 4.5 amps) will/can surge up to 6 amps (I'm pulling numbers here for the sake of an example) for up to 30 seconds. Now, on a lathe, that would/could work. On a planer, not a good idea! Even if you are hogging out a large blank, you won't put a continuous load that would largely exceed the overclocked amp output of the VFD...not for extended periods.

Now, that said, the TECO FM50 (which is what I used for 3 of my machines) asks (in one of the setup steps) for a setting of your motor's amp capacity. DD this is for you, buddy!: I'm going to use the opposite example here... If your VFD was a 2 hp (6 amp) and your motor was a 1.5 hp (4.5 amp), you would set the VFD for 75% because the motor cannot keep up with the VFDs capabilities at 100%...you'd likely burn out your motor. So, if you make that setting 100% (in DD's case), his VFD would put out 9 amps to his motor (likely something like a 15 amp motor). The motor is fine, it isn't being taxed at all. Now, I BELIEVE that setting can go higher (past 100%) which would overclock the VFD...putting out more amps (than 9) but only for short bursts...otherwise it will shut down to protect itself.

I want to add that it has been a year of so since I built my last lathe and had to think of all this stuff, so, please forgive me (but feel free to correct me) if I've mutilated things. Likewise, IIRC it is 3 amps per hp in 220v, and 6 amps per hp in 110. So the numbers above were assuming 220v...

[Sid Matheny]

DD I would be in the same boat as you! I don't blame you for asking for more guidance.


Sid

[David DeCristoforo]

Ya see? That's just what I'm talkin about. One guy says sure, hook it up… it'll run fine. Then the next guy says you hooked a 5hp motor up to your 3hp VFD??? Woah dude… you probably toasted your VFD! Then another guy says hey, dummy… you already got your answer. Why are you still askin'? Scheech!

[Mike Cruz]

DD, under no load, your motor, albeit 5 hp, isn't putting out 5 hp. So, even if your VFD wasn't "configured", I don't see (though I'm no expert) how your motor would be pulling more than 9 amps (what I'd imagine your "3 hp VFD" is rated for). I don't see how you fried your VFD with that motor. Now, that said, TECO may say that you should NEVER start the VFD up without first configuring it or else you might fry the VFD (because maybe it comes pre programmed at 1000% or something stupid like that).

As long as I understand this whole thing correctly, your motor "can put out 5 hp/15 amps". Your VFD can output up to 3 hp/9 amps. If anything, your VFD will not be able to supply your motor enough power to allow it to be "all it can be".

If your situation were reversed, and you had a 3 hp motor and a 5 hp VFD, I can see how you could overwork/overheat/fry your motor.

If you don't configure your VFD to allow it only put out enough power to equal its rating, I don't see how you can fry it.

If you overclock your VFD to allow it to put out as much power as the motor is able to "suck up", I can see how you would/could fry your VFD.

The secret is to properly program your VFD. There are certain sections that need attention. If I get time tomorrow, I'll look for my manual that I wrote down my parameters in. IF I find it, I'll let you know which part is dedicated to this discussion.

[roger oldre]

It took me longer than 20 minutes to type that up lol. overclocking the VFD doesent increase HP as someone else has stated it increases the frequency of the cycle to run faster than the 60 hz synchronous motor was built to run just as decreasing the hz to less than 60 hz makes the motor run slower. there are constant output state drives that can maintain the torque at diferent speeds. I sincerly doubt that you let the smoke out of your VFD by trying to start your motor unloaded even though it is 5 hp and the VFD was rated for only 3. from the factory they are usualy set to ramp up to the requested speed. This type of start reduces the inrush current that can be as much as 3 times the running draw of a motor. Most VFD's today are self protecting against many mistakes. they simply fault, not fry. DD I can and do understand your fear and uncertainty relax a little. As I said I wasnt trying to be mean I am trying to understand some things as well.

You may feel that it is backtracking a bit but if you dont mind covering the bases I would be happy to work through your drive requirements with you.

What speed range are you shooting for?
what is you maximum diameter turning/ minimum?
Can you supply a picture of the drive as it is?
can you supply thye size for the maximum size pulley on the headstock?
what is the center distance available from spindle to the motor shaft?
I can crunch some numbers in a couple programs I have and let you know the results.
what type of belt do you want to run? V belt, cog/timing belt, poly V?
Roger

[Mike Cruz]

Let me rephrase. And I have to apologize for using "overclocking" incorrectly. I understand the hz adjustment, and that has to do with speed.

When you get the VFD, you have to input the amps of your motor. Even if you have a "2 hp" VFD and a 2 hp motor. Not all 2 hp motors pull the same amps. A 2 hp motor could pull 5.2 amps or 6.0 (maybe more?). So, if your motor pulls a max of 5.2 amps, you are "supposed" to program the VFD to let it know that...thus only letting it output a maximum of 5.2 amps (by finding out the percentage of the maximum amps your VFD can put out...in this case, roughly 87%), otherwise, you could damage your motor.

What I am not sure about is if you can set your VFD to over 100% in this setting (the amp output). For example: If your motor's max output is 6.2 amps, can you set that setting to 103%? And if so, how far over 100% can you go?

[David DeCristoforo]

Perhaps I should apologize for assuming that everyone who might read this thread would be familiar with the history of this lathe. For those who are not, here is the original thread:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?189547-Monster-Lathe-Phase-One-(and-a-quot-small-dilemma-quot-)

There are several others as well but they mostly relate to things like the tool rest. Here is the basic motor drive setup I came up with.

http://www.daviddecristoforo.com/Misc/monster_drive_config.pdf

As you can see, there is a jackshaft. The pulley sizes were based on using the dynamotor which has a max RPM of 2400. this will be a bit different with a 1700 RPM motor but the basic setup will be the same.


Now, as to the VFD, I admit to being somewhat in the dark. You can say E=mc2 to some people and they will know exactly what you re talking about. Others will just look at you and say "Ummm… OK,,, whatever you say…" That's me with this VFD thing. If you tell me that I have to program the output amperage and you really mean that you have to set the frequency, I'm going to be confused. I was led to understand that this would work "out of the box" and that the programming was only needed to configure the unit to work with remote controls. Maybe I got that wrong but don't see anything in the manual that says "Before you turn it on you have to do such and such…" The stuff in the manual may be clear to someone who knows what it all means but for me it's mostly incomprehensible. I have some programming settings provided by Dave Muller that have to do with setting up the remote switches but first I need to get the thing working.


For now, it's on hold. I'm waiting to find out why there is no output voltage across the ""T" terminals. I was never able to measure any output at all and that might be because I fried it immediately upon turning on the power as it was not connected correctly. I had the 220 input connected to L1 and L2 when they were supposed to be connected to L1 and L3. That, combined with the fact that it was connected to a 5hp motor instead of a 3hp motor might have been the cause of the malfunction. If so I will just have to eat it. I'll know after FactoryMation get's it back and tests it out.


In the meantime, there is the question of the motor itself. I was not able to run it when I bought it because the seller did not have 3ph available in his garage. But he assured me it was working and offered to refund my money if it did not run. I ill get the motor bench tested in the next few days so at least I will know that much. But because I failed to double check the specs before I bought it, I still have a 5hp motor when I thought I was buying a 3hp motor. Assuming that the motor still works, I will either have to sell it again and find a 3hp one or "upgrade" the VFD to a 5hp model. All in all, this has turned into something of a "sticky wicket", mainly due to my own lack of understanding of the equipment. Next time around I'll know a bit more and I will be a bit more cautious about just flipping the power switch. I'll wait until I fear about the VFD before making any more moves.

[Trevor Howard]

I had the 220 input connected to L1 and L2 when they were supposed to be connected to L1 and L3.


I've installed many Inverters over the years, different brands, but now I am confused DD
Attached is a snapshot from Page 24 of the TECO FM50 Manual

[Ken Fitzgerald]

For the record and clarification,

typically when one uses the term "overclocking" with respect to electronics in general and computers specifically, you are talking about increasing the frequency. In the case of motor controllers, it generally will increase the speed of the motor and in the case of the computer it will do the same.

What Mike is referring to is delaying an overcurrent fault condition. Typically intelligent motor controllers monitor output current and in the event of an overcurrent condition will create a fault shutting down the motor controller. The fault can require a user acknowledgement and input/reset or in some cases it can automatically reset itself while software keeps count of the number of faults for user information.

Delaying over current conditions is often used to provide extremely short periods of currents that exceed the normal overcurrent limits to allow for such things as startup current for the motor or periodic short term power variations generally caused by line voltage variations.

......and for record.....as stated by John.....let's do keep it civil......

This is Ken temporarily in Phoenix.....on vacation.....it's warmer than Idaho was when we left home but not by much.....headed north this afternoon to tour the Grand Canyon later this weekend.

Good luck with your project David!

[David DeCristoforo]

"...but now I am confused DD..."

You are not the only one! That diagram is exactly why I hooked it up as I did in the first place. To me, it looks like the correct connection is the two hot leads to L1 and L2 and the neutral to L3. But then I was told that the two hot leads go to L1 and L3 and no neutral is used. So go figure. Is is any wonder we are confused?

[roger oldre]

do you have the pulleys then? are you sticking to the arrangement in the PDF? your motor is 1725 5hp at this point. center distance plays an important role in both surface contact area and noise. can you approximate the distances?

This lathe was built for several particular operations trying to combine several into one "base machine". I am a production turner. I started in my dads shop when I was 7.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3GBvyQd4sb8&feature=player_detailpage#t=5

271323

I have used cutting tools from typical chisels to skill saws mounted on the lathe. In my case speed is required.eo]

I have been through this a few times.

Thanks for the backup info it is helpful.

[Trevor Howard]

"...but now I am confused DD..."

You are not the only one! That diagram is exactly why I hooked it up as I did in the first place. To me, it looks like the correct connection is the two hot leads to L1 and L2 and the neutral to L3. But then I was told that the two hot leads go to L1 and L3 and no neutral is used. So go figure. Is is any wonder we are confused?

Looking at the print, I would wire this with the 2 hots to L1 & L2 no connection on L3. The neutral is not needed since its 240VAC Input

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Trevor,

Page 24 IMHO applies to 1/4-1 HP motor controllers and wouldn't apply to David's since his is a 3 HP controller....IMHO....

I could be wrong but I believe page 29 which regards 1-3 HP motor controllers is more appropriate...one must pay attention to the notes at the bottom of page 29.

[Scott Hackler]

Someone smarter than myself needs to explain why a 240VAC circuit doesn't need a neutral. It was alwasy my understanding that a circuit MUST contain a hot leg(s) and a neutral to complete the circuit back to the point of origin (breaker box). .....just trying to learn a few things before I pull wire for a big ole lathe one of these days.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

In a single phase 220 v ac circuit current flows from one hot lead to another. Neutral isn't used. A ground is needed for safety.


In a 110 v ac circuit, current flows from a hot lead to neutral. A ground is still needed for safety in these cases.

Neutral in needed in devices like electric stoves because they use 110 v ac for the clocks while using 220 v ac for the heating elements. A ground is needed that is why most stoves etc. use 4 wire conductors and plugs.. 2 hots, a neutral and ground.

[David DeCristoforo]

"... page 29 which regards 1-3 HP motor controllers is more appropriate..."

The diagram on pg 29 still shows three wires connected to the "L" terminals. Logic, in the words of our favorite Vulcan, would dictate that these would be the two hot leads and a neutral. No?

"...explain why a 240VAC circuit doesn't need a neutral...."

This was my understanding as well. I too would love to hear an explanation for this! Most likely we will get eight or more answers and will end up even more confused!

[Scott Hackler]

Thanks for the explaination Ken.

[Glenn Bird]

DD,
If you read further on page 29, it says that for 230vac single phase, ANY 2 of the three inputs can be used for the 2 hot legs of the 230 volt feed. Shown are 3 connections for 3-phase input power. Therefore you can connect the 2 hot wires to L1 & L2 or L1 & L3 or L2 & L3. Neutral is not required or connected for 230v. ONLY when 115 v is the input power.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Contrary to common belief, there is more than one method of explaining current flow. The majority of people were taught using the "hole" theory. A few of us were taught the "energy transfer" theory but regardless......

For current to flow in a circuit, there must be a difference in potential between the two inputs.

In the hot legs in 220 v ac, there is a phase difference in the voltages of the two legs and a resultant difference in instantaneous potential. Thus, current will flow from one leg to the other.

Thus, if you were to wire a 110 v ac hot leg to the same, 110 v ac hot leg, there would be no current flow because there is no difference in phase or potential.

However, with an input from a 110 v ac input to neutral, there is a difference in potential and current will flow.

[David DeCristoforo]

Whatever you say...;)

But why, then, does the manual show three wires connected when only two are "supposed" to be connected?

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Because the drawing on page 29 can be used for single phase 220 v ac or 3 phase inputs as explained by Glenn Bird.

It would probably be clearer if the manufacturers provided individual drawings for each possible input situation but typically the people who are installing these are professionals or individuals who have been trained specifically to install and adjust/program these devices. They weren't meant to be a DIY device for the general public.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Good luck David!

[David DeCristoforo]

When I say "supposed", I am referring to the instruction I received from the tech support person at FactoryMation who told me that there was "supposed" to be only two wires connected, one to the L1 terminal and one to the L3 terminal. No where in the documentation is this shown. We are expected to "refer to the manual" for information but the information the manual contains is apparently not accurate or precise or at least not clear and specific enough to be interpreted by a "novice" end user.

"Good luck David!"

Thanx Ken. apparently, I'm going to need it!

PS Here is what it says on page 29 of the manual Glenn referred to:

NOTE :
1.Power switch, REV-0-FWD switch and potentiometer are only for NEMA 4X units with operator devices
2.Power supply cable: #12 AWG (3.5mm2)
3.Motor cable: #16 AWG (1.25mm2)
4.Tightening torque values for terminals:
(1).Power/Motor cable (plug-in) terminal: 4.34in-lb (5kg-cm)
(2).Remote control wire: 3.47in-lb (4kg-cm)
(3). Outer cover (M4): 5.20in-lb (6kg-cm)
5. Input source: single-phase or three-phase (L1, L2, L3, ) ensuring that it is connected to a 200/230V or a 400/460V supply.
(Models FM50-202-N4FS & FM50-203-N4FS with operator devices are single phase input only).
6. Output motor: three-phase ( T1,T2,T3)

It's not really very clear in terms of how many wires should be connected and to which terminals they should be connected to but it seems to suggest, along with the diagrams, that all three wires would be used. Perhaps I was being arrogant is assuming that this would be a simple matter. But I will keep at it and in the end, I'm sure I will get this working properly. Once I do, I will create a very specific document that others who want to use this particular device can refer to in the future.

[roger oldre]

the tech could well have been correct. not saying that it is correct with your particular unit but many of the VFD's out although designed for 3 ph input will take single phase in and deliver the appropriate output. the VFD'S take AC turn it into DC internally and convert from DC to 3 phase out. It may well be possible to take one of their 3 ph in models and feed it with single phase and us it for 3 ph out. They can be wonderful and diabolical at the same time.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

David,

This is an electrical device that is not MEANT be a DIY device by those untrained in the electrical or electronics fields or unfamiliar with the device. The manual is written for those who would know or enough knowledge to be able to interpret the proper connections.

As I stated.....220 v ac uses only 2 hots and ground...not a neutral. One would hook the two hots to 2 of the 3 L1, L2 or L3 leads and the ground to ground unless specifically told otherwise.

As stated by Roger, some devices do have the capability to accept a single phase input OR a 3 phase input and provide the proper 3 phase output to the motor.

As shown by the note you posted there are 2 versions of the FM-50 that are designed to be used with single phase ac 200-230v ac or 400-460 v ac.

According to the brochure at the TECO-Westinghouse website, the FM-50-203-C is made to operate 2-3 HP 3-phase motors at 200-230 v ac 1 or 3 phase input and the model FM-50-403-C is made to operate 2-3HP 3- phase motors at 380-460 v ac 3 phase input only.

Thus the only controller that they offer that will run 2-3 HP 3-phase motors will operate on 1 or 3 phase inputs

While wiring this may seem difficult, programming could be just as difficult.

Yes....some untrained, inexperienced people may be able to work their way through it but a lot of folks won't be able to do so. It wasn't meant to be a DIY project. The manual is written for those in the profession or with the knowledge.

While I can understand your frustration, I think it's unrealistic to expect a manual to be written for untrained personnel if the device wasn't meant for DIY applications.

[David DeCristoforo]

My sarcastic side is dying to go off on this. Maybe the manual should have a "caveat" printed on the cover like the one on the "Ron Popiel Rotisserie Oven": THIS MANUAL IS NOT TO BE TAKEN LITERALLY!!! Or "THIS MANUAL IS NOT INTENDED FOR USE BY AMATEURS, DUMMIES OR DINGBATS!!!" Then there could be some "fine print" like "This manual in intended for use by professional electronics engineers only". Or "This manual is intended for use only by those knowledgeable enough not to need the manual in the first place. If you do not meet these requirements, please place the manual on the ground and back away from the box."

[Duane Meadows]

Many suppliers of electronic part accept no returns on opened electrical/electronic parts for this reason. Once you walk out the door, get it it out of your mailbox, or however they are obtained, the manufacturer has NO control over whether it is properly installed, properly programmed, whether proper anti-static procedures are followed(YES, that is important as well!). It's also why some suppliers won't even sell to an unlicensed installer(or equivalent) Without sufficient experience/training you can't begin to appreciate the number of ways these things can be destroyed! I have seen many, many people expect replacements or refunds for devices that they had destroyed through improper hookup and handling! Yes, I was in that kind of business for 35 years.

The time to research and ask questions is before you apply power, not afterwards.

Oh, and many people assume that the seller gets full credit for returning the "defective" part. That is not always true! I have ate(the price of) quite a few "returns" that way my self over the years! By the way, it is NOT the re-sellers or the manufactures responsibility to train and educate you! It is kind of assumed that if you are buying a VFD, that you actually know what to do with it.

[David DeCristoforo]

"The time to research and ask questions is before you apply power, not afterwards..."

Yes... Thanx for that. I kinda recall doing just that. Here are a few select comments from those attempts:

"The Teco should come out of the box programmed to work with the buttons on it's on box."

"...you'll have no problems. The instructions are pretty good..."

"This is really quite simple and worked first try for me."

Now don't get me wrong here and go off on my not being appreciative of the huge amount of assistance I was provided. But at no point do I recall any comments to the effect that "Without sufficient experience/training you can't begin to appreciate the number of ways these things can be destroyed!" or that this "...wasn't meant to be a DIY project. The manual is written for those in the profession or with the knowledge..."

So I have learned the hard way and I will deal with whatever repercussions result and the next go will be with a bit more knowledge and experience than I had at the start of this one. But don't come on like I did not seek out this kind of information in the first place. Again, I have to state that I have nothing but gratitude for those who generously offered advice and assistance. But it might have been helpful if you guys who are now hopping up and down to administer a wrist slapping had offered these cautions to begin with. I will certainly offer them to the next guy who asks for help installing a VFD!

[Mike Cruz]

DD, in all honesty, I don't think you fried the VFD. I think it was wacky when you got it.

I, too, was told that it really isn't all that hard. So, I read the manual. Looked like Chinese to me. Well, that was probably because I was reading the part in Chinese... But even when I read the English part, it made no difference. I still couldn't make heads or tails of it. I can do basic wiring, but this stuff is way over my head. I "get" what they do and how they work. But I couldn't set one up.

If you really want, I can look how mine are set up (and try to trace wires) and take pics and post them and explain to the best of my ability how it was wired. But that will just give you the externals. I don't remember what was done in each step and what parameters were set to what.

There is a basic knowledge base that you need to properly set these things up. There is no doubt about it. Unfortunately, those who have that knowledge base find these things easy...and kinda assume that anyone can do it. Kinda like riding a bike or swimming. If you can do it, you think anyone can.

Anyway, like I've said, also, I was lucky enough to have a Creeker that lived an hour away that was happy to come here to hook them up for me. It would be nice if someone local could come over and do the same for you, DD.

BTW, my last VFD was not a TECO. I wanted to save a few bucks and got some other 2 hp unit off Ebay for about $110. After I got it, I banged my head on the wall wondering why I didn't spend the extra $40 for the TECO. When Steve (the fellow Creeker) came over to hook this one up, admittedly, it didn't go terribly smooth. The instructions were worse than on the TECO. But, once we got it all working (yes "we"...it was a joint effort), Steve said he actually really liked this VFD. It was made for shapers, and had some nice features. Don't ask me what they were, I haven't the slightest. It has been working great, and I'm keeping my fingers crossed.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

David,

First, I am not convinced that you fried the VFD. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if the company calls you and tells you that they can't find anything wrong with it. Since it is intelligent enough device to work with 1 phase or 3 phase 200-230 v ac, I wouldn't be surprised if it is capable of protecting the input in the event of a neutral being mistakenly connected to the input. That might explain why there was no output.

Secondly, David I really sympathize with your predicament.

It may be hard for some to understand, electrical and electronics are separate fields. It can really get complex when you start talking 3 phase electrical .....Delta or Wye configurations ......or combinations...... I haven't studied that stuff since the late 70s. While I worked with complex electronics equipment for over 40 years, I didn't do enough electrical work to keep my skills up on that side. In the late 80's and early 90s when the whole industry went to swapping units or chassis instead of troubleshooting to the component level, some of those component level troubleshooting skills became history. So even for professionals in the two related fields it can become difficult at times.

I hope things go well for you David!

[Duane Meadows]

David,

First, I am not convinced that you fried the VFD. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if the company calls you and tells you that they can't find anything wrong with it.

Quite possibly! It may have been going into immediate protect, because it couldn't handle the start current of a 5HP motor. That would give the symptoms you had, David.

[roger oldre]

Here is a vid of the out of the box set up that may help you when you get your VFD back.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=xBxqwU48JOI#t=194

I am also of the opinion that you didn't fry your VFD, In the mean time I would be happy to help you tune your nuts and bolts section to what your looking for. It will help to have some of this information when you set your VFD for efficient use. Such as the ramp up, ramp down, emergency stop, remote pendant functions, max and min freqs, etc.

My last post wasnt meant as a slap on the wrist. I was hoping to be encouraging in the fact that if you hooked something up wrong it may well not have damaged the VFD. They are fairly bullet proof to improper external miss connects. They dont like dust though. You will want to enclose it and filter cooling air drawn or exchanged into the enclosure.

[Mike Cruz]

Even the start current of a motor under no load? Not questioning you (you likely know WAY WAY more about this than I do), rather honestly curious. I realize that motors peak at start up, but if the motor were not even hooked up to a belt, I would think (and could be completely wrong) that its start up current wouldn't exceed the max current of a 3 hp motor under full load. No?

[roger oldre]

I think I am getting the hang of this answer thread and answer the last post thing? Mike the starting inrush can be several times the full load running draw of the motor. Typicaly VFD's are also a soft start devise and take time to ramp up to the requested speed in the case of out of the box this particular VFD is shipped preset to a five second ramp up. It would not fry from the draw it would fault on over current. This is also helpful if there is a jam in the equipment the VFD will fault instead of blowing other circuit protection such as heaters, breakers or fuses. On large turnings it will be found that the ramp down to stop gets finicky and may fault if injection breaking is not used to slow the speed in the required length of time. also on heavy turnings dialing the speed pot up and down faster than the programed accel decell curve will fault the drive. To avoid some of these the settings should be tuned for the intended purpose.

[Greg Ketell]

Several people have asked why 220v doesn't use a "common" line. Textual descriptions don't do it for me so I thought I would give a visual version.

If you take the Blue line as "Hot", or "Line" and the x-axis as "common" or "neutral", this is how 120v AC (Alternating Current) works. The voltage on the "Hot" swings from 120v to -120 and the power produced is the difference between that and the "common", which is always at zero volts. When the Line peaks at 120v you get 120v, when it dips to -120v you get -120v. (sorry, that is obvious but you will understand why I needed it in just a second).
271457


This is how 220v AC works. The red line is "Line-1", and the blue line is "Line-2", and the x-axis is Neutral. Notice that Line-1 and Line-2 are always exactly out of phase with each other. Because they ARE out of phase and because you only hook up Line-1 and Line-2 you now have the situation where your power produced is the difference between them, when line-1 is at 120v line-2 will be at -120v and the power produced is the difference which is 220v.

271458


So, 120v uses one hot and one neutral. 220v uses 2 hots working in opposition and neutral is not needed. 440v uses 3 hots.
Which is why manual says you don't use neutral but you hook up L1, L2, L3 and the footnote also said that the device had to be used for 220v or 440v.


Just in case someone doesn't understand how the VFD makes the motor spin at different speeds...

The motor is driven by the "wave" in the power. At 120v it is driving one side of a magnet, at -120v it is driving the other side of the magnet: Push-Pull-Push-Pull. In the simplest case, one cycle of the electrical wave makes one revolution of the motor.

So if you have a "Variable Frequency" drive, you can make the electrical wave come in faster or slower which turns the motor faster or slower. In the graph below, the blue line is "normal" (60Hz in North America so in our simple example: 60RPM), the red line is twice as fast (120RPM), and the orange line is 6 times as fast (360RPM).

271459

I hope this helps.
GK

[David Reed]

David
i have followed this somewhat chaotic thread and without commenting on the VFD wiring and function, thus further muddling the waters, I noticed terminology used which has added to the confusion (some of which has been clarified). Neutral is not the same as ground in function and purpose. They are both at earth or ground (that being zero) potential and often joined inside the electrical panel but serve different purposes. This somewhat sloppy use is seen clearly in the YouTube video and perhaps one more source for confusion.
Just sayin
D

[David C. Roseman]

Several people have asked why 220v doesn't use a "common" line. Textual descriptions don't do it for me so I thought I would give a visual version.
[snip]


Greg, very nice way to present this, and great graphics!

David

[David DeCristoforo]

First off, thanx again for all the inout. I too am hoping that the VFD is not "fried". I do wonder about how it would protect against whatever it needs to protect against without there being some kind of reset option, something else I did not find either on the device itself or in the documentation. One way or the other the basic problem has been the lack of power at the output terminals. Could this have been caused by the incorrect input connection? Did the unit instantly go into limbo because the second hot wire was connected to L2 instead of L3? If some protection kicked in, what is that protection? How does the unit protect itself? And how is that "reset"? The tech support person I was on the phone with did not suggest any way to reset the unit. Maybe "resetting" the device can only be done by a "qualified technician"? I guess I'll have to wait until the unit gets inspected before I have definitive answers. The unit is scheduled for delivery on Wednesday and it will probably take them at least a couple of days to "get to it". So maybe by the end of next week I'll find out the status. In the meantime, I've got lots to keep me busy and I still have the issue of the motor not being the "right one" for this VFD. So I am looking again for a good used 3hp motor and this time, I'll be sure to check the nomenclature plate before I buy it!