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View Full Version : comparison of General and Target top coats



mreza Salav
09-18-2013, 1:40 PM
I will have a full house of cabinets, mill work, doors, railings that I'd like to finish.
I have used Target and General products somewhat but don't have experience with all of them.
I have used Target EM6000 and find it easy to use and gives good results. I have also tried EM9300 and the final result wasn't much different than EM6000.
I have used a small amount of General EnduroVar Urethane (which goes on pink and has a bit of amber tone). The application didn't seem much different than
the other two, but does have the added amber tone. There are other top coats from the two companies.

What I'd like to find from those with experience with them is which one you'd recommend for kitchen cabinets, interior doors, mill work (baseboards, mouldings, etc),
railings of stairs, and which one you would not. All are going to be sprayed using a HVLP system.

The ones I'm considering are:

- Target EM6000
- Target EM9300
- Target EM2000

- General Enduro Clear Poly
- General Enduro Pre-cat Urethan
- General EnduroVar Varnish

Aside from some being clear or having an amber tone, what would be the main difference of final result or the way the are applied in terms of durability, ease of application (self seal or requires sanding in between coats), etc?

TIA

mreza Salav
09-19-2013, 4:11 PM
No comments or suggestion? There is gotta be some experienced people here, please...

Matt Meiser
09-19-2013, 6:10 PM
I've sprayed a lot of EM600 for a hobbyist--probably about 10 gallons--and was pretty happy with it. A couple years ago I ran into an issue with some that didn't stick and had to respray a surface and assumed I'd done something wrong. Later, I heard of two friends having trouble (sheen and orange peel issues) with Target within the last couple years and both were dissatisfied with Target's response. Around the same time Homestead Finishing dropped Target and switched to GF as well. When it came time to do my own kitchen, I tried Endurovar based on both friends' recommendations and have no plans to go back to Target. I used Sealcoat tinted to the color we wanted with Transtint dyes then Endurovar and I really like the results. I think the appearance is more natural and I think it feels better when you run your hand over it if that makes sense? GF says sand between coats and in talking to them, all they are really recommend is that you remove any imperfections, not looking for sanding for mechanical bond as long as you're spraying your coats one after another (seems like 4 hours is stuck in my head?) I have a quart of another GF product they sent me to sample (can't recall the name off the top of my head) that is clear like EM6000 but similar to the Endurovar.

The pink stuff in the can is a little unsettling at first but you get used to it :D

Jim Becker
09-19-2013, 9:17 PM
My only experience has been with the Target products, both current versions and two previous generations. I only had one bad experience and it turned out to be a bad batch...which they cheerfully replaced at no cost to me.

mreza Salav
09-19-2013, 9:33 PM
Thanks Matt and Jim. When was the change iin Target? the last time I used EM6000 was back in April and it turned out fine.

Matt: how is applying Endurovar? any tips for applying on vertical surfaces? do you apply a very thing (just mist) and multiple coats or as thick as you can get away without having runs?

Matt Meiser
09-19-2013, 9:52 PM
"Change" I don't know if there was one but I saw/heard enough to make me worry.

I didn't spray many vertical surfaces--lots of doors, drawer fronts, trim, etc. Its pretty thick stuff and and I don't recall having any sags or drips. I did have a wine rack with some tricky interior spraying and didn't have any problems with that. I did find myself spraying it thick enough at first that it would take forever to dry.

Rich Enders
09-19-2013, 10:35 PM
271279

I do not have any experience with General Finishes, but a couple years ago based on some positive postings on the Creek I used Target's best outdoor finish (according to their website). Within about a month it was discoloring on a white oak swing set that I laboriously prepped and finished with multiple coats. So I called Target Coatings and was told only Jeff could help me. After 5 repeat calls over about 10 days he picked up the phone, and told me what I used was not their best. Instead of "X" I should have used "Y", and as a favor he would sell me a gallon of "Y" at a 25% discount. So I bought it. At this point I deserved the dummy of the year award, because it seems that everything at Target Coatings was 25% off at that time.

However I bit my lip, and laboriously prepped and finished using multiple coats of "Y". About one month later it also was discoloring.

My fingers were a little worn out by now, so I left the swing set alone for about 3 months. In this amount of time the entire "Y" coat cracked and pealed.

I used "X" and "Y" because I don't recall Target's numbers, and I have since disposed of everything relating to Target Coatings. My experience was akin to Matt's.

So I laboriously prepped one more time, sprayed Minwax spar varnish (from the Borg), and two years later the finish still looks pristine.

Bill Neely
09-20-2013, 10:02 PM
I'm going to try local with my next project. Sherwood (Sherwin-Williams) Kem-Aqua.

Jim Becker
09-22-2013, 8:02 PM
M, the issue I mentioned was a number of years ago and it was with USL (the predecessor to EM6000), not the current product which to-date has been flawless for me.

Alan Lightstone
09-22-2013, 8:53 PM
I couldn't get EM6000 to work well for me (bubbles and orange peel), so I gave up on it. I've had a much easier time with GF products. Charles Neil spoke very highly of them when I took his finishing course. In fact, most of our practice was with GF waterborne finishes. FWIW.

Sam Layton
09-23-2013, 11:30 AM
A few years ago I was trying to decide what type of finish to use just as you are. I looked at both Target, and General Finishes. Looking at the Target forum, it appeared a lot of people were having problmes with Target products. I opted for General Finishes products. I have had very good luck with their products. However, I do not like, or use their water base stains. I use their oil base stains.

On an Exterior door I use GF 450 Exterior. On my kitchen cabinets I used GF Arm R Seal. On my bathroom cabinets I used GF Pre-cat Urethan. I have been very happy with all of their products except the water base stains.

Sam

mreza Salav
09-23-2013, 5:26 PM
Thanks to all, so now I'm leaning towards GF.

Sam, you are the 2nd who says pre-cat Urethane for cabinets. GF itself names their EnduroVar as their top of the line product. Any reason you prefer pre-cat urethan over that?
Also, as you may now, I'm working on an entry door and am thinking of using their 450 exterior for the finish, along with their exterior WB stain (the only trouble is I don't have a
local distributer to try, so have to order it shipped to test). How do you find their 450 Exterior last?

Sam Layton
09-24-2013, 10:27 AM
Hi mreza,

When I purchased the pre-cat urethane I don't remember looking at the EnduroVar. Is the EnduroVar new? I purchased the pre-cat urethane several years ago. By the way, It looks as good today as it did when I applied it. I used the pre-cat urethane on my bathroom cabinets. I used the pre-cat sanding sealer, and then the pre-cat urethane. I also added the cross-linker.

On my kitchen cabinets I used GF Arm-R-Seal. They aslo look like I just finished them. I finished my kitchen cabinets after I installed them, and I did not want to spray in the house. That is why I used the Arm-R-Seal in the kitchen. I applied it with a spong brush.

I called GF to ask them what their best finish for exterior would be. They recommended Exterior 450. I built my front door as well, and used the 450. It has been maybe 8 mo now. The door finish looks new. My door in protected by a porch, and does not get any sun.

I don't like their water base stain. For me, it is hard to apply without streaking. It dries to fast. May be if you sprayed it fast flooding it, then wipe it down fast it may work better. I like their oil base stain. It is OK to apply their water base top coat over their oil base stain. You just have to make sure the stain is completely dry. In good weather, I usually give it 3-4 days. With the 450 no sanding sealer or under coat is required. Just stain, and apply the 450.

I would just caution you with the water base stain. When I did my bathroom cabinets, I wiped on the stain starting at one end of the face frame. When I got back around to where I started, I could not blend in the stain. It dried to fast. I sanded the completd frame down and applied the oil base stain. The oil base stain is very user friendly.

The 450, and pre-cat both spray very good. I am really happy with GF products.

Sam

Matt Meiser
09-24-2013, 10:48 AM
I used the water-based stain more like a toner on a maple cabinetry project and if I never do that again I'll be happy. Too hard to get even, but if I wiped it at all it blotched badly and my experiments with blotch control methods didn't get much better. As a toner, I used a ton and its expensive!

Frank Martin
09-30-2013, 1:28 AM
I also used Target finishes because of the rave reviews here, but decided to go with General simply because General is locally available whereas Target is not and does not seem to offer any advantages over General.

Mike Suiter
10-12-2013, 1:12 PM
With my experience with General Finishes and Target Coatings, hands down GF wins. I have my Target EM2000 satin and CL100 going back to Target for inspection, but many people are getting rough finishes with EM2000 and it gets even worse once the CL100 cross-linker is added. People are having problems with the CL100 in other Target topcoats so it's not just with the EM2000. I'll report back with more details once I find our how Target resolves my problems.

In summary, I've sprayed GF Enduro-var gloss and satin plus High Performance satin. These products are very forgiving with equipment settings and all 3 spray great with 1.4mm and 1.0mm tips on my Fuji Mini Mite 4. All of them dry to a glass smooth surface.

I've sprayed dozens of test boards with Target EM2000 gloss and satin and yet to get even good results. I've tried all kinds of settings and nothing will work - 1.4mm tip, 1.0mm tip, 2 mils wet, 4 mils wet, full air, 1/2 air, gun closer to surface. Common problems I and others get are bubbles as soon the the finish hits the surface and rough dry finish.

Customer service GF responds via email within a few hours. With Target I can't can any response using email or voice mail.

Frank Martin
10-12-2013, 9:51 PM
Target is a very small operation. Basically all technical questions can only be answered by the owner, Jeff. When I had some questions for my first order, it took 4 phone calls and over a week to get hold off Jeff and able to order what I needed. I went through the hassle because of stellar reviews here, thinking it was something so special, there is no equivalent to it in the market. This was when I first got into waterborne. I had several gallons of unopened Target finishes, after reading comments/issues here I disposed them off as the cost of the finish is relatively negligible compared to the huge hassle of sanding back etc.

While I like supporting small businesses, this is one case, I would much rather just go to a retail store and easily pick up what I needed from GF selection.

Mike Suiter
10-13-2013, 12:13 AM
Target is a very small operation. Basically all technical questions can only be answered by the owner, Jeff. When I had some questions for my first order, it took 4 phone calls and over a week to get hold off Jeff and able to order what I needed. I went through the hassle because of stellar reviews here, thinking it was something so special, there is no equivalent to it in the market. This was when I first got into waterborne. I had several gallons of unopened Target finishes, after reading comments/issues here I disposed them off as the cost of the finish is relatively negligible compared to the huge hassle of sanding back etc.

While I like supporting small businesses, this is one case, I would much rather just go to a retail store and easily pick up what I needed from GF selection.

I've been woodworking for about 10 years and have pretty much used Waterlox the entire time. When I got into woodworking I experimented with different finishes and settled on Waterlox as my goto. Now that I'm diving into waterbornes I want to try a few and will probably settle on one brand and stick to it. My first experience was with General Finishes Enduro-var and I liked it, but also know that Target has a long reputation with waterbornes, and wanted to try it. My experience with it has not been good, and while I haven't screwed up a real project, I have wasted a bunch of time making and spraying test boards.

I'm giving Target a chance to either send me quality product or refund my money. I included 2 test boards that has General Finishes on one side and Target on the other when I returned the products. There is no comparison to the quality of the finishes and even my wife said the Target one feels rough - and that was after the Target finish was rubbed out with a brown paper sack.

One thing is my Target EM2000 satin is very thin compared to other waterbornes (including Target EM2000 gloss). These are measured around 70º with a Ford #4 cup:

EM2000 satin - 14s
EM2000 gloss - 24s
General Finishes Enduro-var satin - 23s
General Finishes Enduro-var gloss - 24s
General Finishes High Performance satin - 26s

14s Ford #4 is 20s Zahn's #2 and EM2000 satin specs says it's 35-40s Zahn's #2 so my product is very thin. I thought going from a 1.4mm tip to a 1.0mm tip would make a difference but it didn't.

John TenEyck
10-13-2013, 12:30 PM
I have no experience with Target Coatings products, but a lot of experience with a couple of GF's, specifically their High Performance Poly and EnduroVar. Their HP Poly has to be about the easiest stuff to spray, as long as the viscosity is adjusted for your gun set up. It self levels very well and gives a beautiful, flat finish of consistent sheen that cures to a very hard film. I find the sheen to be about one level higher than GF claims. Satin looks more like semi-gloss to me, and SG like gloss. The gloss sheen is super glossy and I have only used 1 quart because I just don't like gloss on the stuff I make. The HP also has a great UV stabilizer package in it and I have seen essentially no color change in a cherry jewelry box I made about 4 years ago.

EnduroVar is much more of a challenge for me to spray. It has a nasty habit of wanting to run on vertical surfaces unless I am very careful to keep the coating pretty thin. I also don't think it self levels quite as well as the HP Poly, but it still gives a very nice finish. Chemical durability is superior against nasty stuff like acetone compared to the HP Poly, and for that reason it is my preferred choice for any application subject to food, chemicals, etc. BTW, in side by side tests I don't see much difference in the color of HP Poly and EnduroVar, despite what GF claims about the amber tone of EnduroVar. Both are very clear. And very nice, IMO.

I very much want to try GF's new Conversion Varnish; I just need a project worthy of the $120/gal price !

In the end, I've been so pleased with GF's products I have no plans to change horses.

John

Phil Thien
10-13-2013, 1:57 PM
For clear finishes, I like the Varathane Diamond. It is inexpensive and fairly durable.

Matt Meiser
10-16-2013, 9:32 AM
For another point against Target...I'm finishing a project for my parents that matches existing cabinetry I did with Target EM6000 so I'm using EM6000. I'm cutting it close and was thinking about ordering another quart. They want just over $20 to ship 1 quart of finish!!!! Shipping a gallon is is almost $24. That pretty well eats up any price differential between their product and GF's purchased locally.

I know shipping has gotten expensive, but not this expensive. I checked UPS.com and they are pocketing $4+ on shipping over book rates and you know they are paying less than that.

Jim Becker
10-17-2013, 6:24 PM
Not defending Target specifically, but don't forget shipping charges from vendors are not just for the shipping, itself. It also covers packaging and the folks to prepare it to go out.

Andy Pratt
11-12-2013, 4:39 PM
I've been using em2000 from target and have been very happy with it. As far as customer service from Target I have made a number of posts on their forum, and Jeff (the owner) personally responded to answer all of the questions I had in each of them, sometimes exchanging multiple PMs to help me along. I've got to be one of his smallest customers and every time I leave a message with a question he personally calls back within a day, maybe two days at the most. I've been pretty impressed that the guy who designed the finish and owns the company will call me back at my shop to help me out, and I feel like their customer service is top notch. Even when I order at 3 p.m. I always get my order within two days, often next day (I live about 12 hours from their location), with normal ground shipping. I've been really impressed with the products that I have used from them so far (clear stain base, em2000, ultraseal WB shellac) and would recommend them to anyone. Their clear stain base does a great job of replicating the look of linseed oil. I don't have any experience using any of their outdoor products.

I torture tested a maple coaster that I put em2000 with CL100 (crosslinker for added durability) on a few months back. It has now had 3 months of sweating glasses, hot coffee and cold cups sitting on it and I never wipe liquid off it except every few weeks to check on it. I probably sits at least a few hours every day with standing water on it. So far it wipes back down to as good as new. I'm shocked that WB finishes have become this good and would highly recommend trying out target coatings.

John TenEyck
11-12-2013, 10:39 PM
Some feedback on my recent experience with GF's Enduro Clear Poly. This product is similar to their consumer product - High Perf. Poly in appearance, but it's chemical durability is more on par with EnduroVar, maybe better if that's possible as the Clear Poly is KCMA rated and EnduroVar is not. My side by side testing of EnduroVar against solvent based poly showed EnduroVar was superior - absolutely no damage from acetone and DNA standing on it till they evaporated. Unlike EnduroVar, the Clear Poly is, well, clear and stays that way.

Anyway, the Clear Poly sprays beautifully, dries super fast, and can be scuff sanded and recoated in a couple of hours, probably less. EnduroVar has a tendency to run for me, the Clear Poly does not. Very nice to use. When I talked to GF's chemist a few months ago about their UV package in High Perf. Poly, which is terrific IME, he mentioned that the one in their Clear Poly is even better. The only downside is that the gloss is higher than what's on the can. This seems to be a consistent issue with GF products. I actually bought the Clear Poly because I wanted higher durability than the Hi Perf. Poly and I wanted a flat sheen. Jeff Jewitt at Homestead Finishing had some and shipped me a gallon right away. Unfortunately, just like every other GF product I've used, the sheen was once again higher than what the label says. This is the only issue I've had with GF's products but it's really annoying. I ended up adding 5% baby powder to it to get the sheen down to the flat I needed. FWIW, it still sprayed beautifully and you get a nice perfume smell when you sand it !

John

mreza Salav
05-20-2014, 4:58 PM
I just re-read this thread and ordered both GF clear poly and their pre-cat urethane to try. I have already tried their EnduroVar.
Their Endurovar satin was too glossy and I just ordered a flat one to try. I should have had ordered clear poly in flat as well based on this thread but it's too late.
I am hoping I can pick one of the three as the final winner to apply on all the trim work in Maple (thousands of linear feet) as well as on the cabinets (Walnut).

Thanks to all for the comments. It greatly helped!

John TenEyck
05-20-2014, 5:48 PM
I look forward to your opinion with how those products work for you. And don't forget, if the flat is still not flat enough, don't be afraid to add some baby powder. Works like a charm. I'm spraying a project today with Clear Poly Flat + 5%.

John

David Eisenhauer
05-20-2014, 6:36 PM
I have used Target for many years since the USL days after trying (once) a precursor (had a parrot logo on the can?) to the current Enduro stuff. This was in the early days for water-based finishes and the water-based were not comparing too well against NCL at that time.I liked Target's idea of "no-sand" between coats (reminded me of the good part about NCL) so I stuck with the Target product. I did hear of people having a problem with Target products (in particular, their shellac for one) a couple of years ago, but I did not experience any problems myself. I shoot lots of casework from time-to-time and typically use their clear poly stuff over Transtint and their shellac to seal the dye in, but used their water-based varnish (to get the amber effect) on a kitchen cabinet job last year. No problems. I am a bulldog about only spraying within the correct temperature range and during dry(er) conditions (or add some retard to the finish) to prevent problems because I have too much invested in the job at that time to screw it up then. On standard cabinet/bookcase jobs, I typically shoot the shellac one day and four coats of clear the next day, with a half hour-45 minutes-one hour between coats, leave it all to cure for a week.

Sam Layton
05-22-2014, 1:02 PM
Hi mreza,

I see that you ordered some pre-cat urethane. Did you also order the pre-cat sanding sealer? The sanding sealer is recommended for the best finish. I do not like shiny finishes. I think there satin finish is just right.

Sam

mreza Salav
05-22-2014, 5:31 PM
I got the sanding sealer as well Sam, but not for that reason, now that you say it I will try it, thank!. So do you apply it after the stain and before the pre-cat urethane?

I got it to apply instead of natural shellac. My cabinets are out of Walnut and my process for walnut (in the past) has been, BLO, Shellac, and then topcoat.
This time, I need to tone the walnut a little bit red (a tiny bit) as the flooring is Santos Mahogany. So I am thinking of a (crazy?!) process:
apply stain (RTM from GF), then BLO to give depth, then sealer, then topcoat. I tried this with Shellac instead of sealer and it worked fine and that's why I got
the GF sanding sealer to test.

Any suggestions/comments?

Sam Layton
05-23-2014, 9:57 AM
I don't know anything about the RTM stain. I use the GF oil base stain. With the oil base stain, you just have to let it dry before applying the Pre-Cat. One time I tried the water base stain, and did not have any luck, so I switched to the oil base stain. It works great. Just have to let it dry for several days. I applied the oil base stain, let it dry for several days, applied the pre-cat sanding sealer, and then applied the pre-cat Urethane. Turned out great. I also added the cross linker to the urethane. I don't know about the BLO. I think I would call GF's and ask them about using the BLO with the pre-cat. I have called them on several occasions and they are glad to help.

Are you going to spray the RTM stain? If you do apply the BLO after the stain, make sure it is dry before applying the pre-cat sanding sealer. I would call GF's first.

Sam