Wireless access point

[Sean Troy]

Would this be the best way to improve wireless signal to the far upstairs part of my house? I wouldn't have any problem running the eithernet cable to the bottom of the stairs. Would that help? thanks, Sean

[Mike Henderson]

I just put another wireless router in the part of my house where I had weak service. It's a different network name and password so I had to log on to that network. But once I logged on, any time I go in that area, my phone (or PC) automatically connects to it when I lose connection to my main wireless network.

Mike

[Jim Rimmer]

I don't fully understand your question because I don't know what a wireless access point is but I can tell you that I have a wi-fi or wireless modem in the upstairs part of my house and my wife connects easily from downstairs.

[Charles Wiggins]

We had the same problem. The wifi router is n the basement on one ed of the house and we could barely get a signal upstairs on the other end of the house. We recently added a Securifi Almond Touchscreen Wireless Router / Range Extender (http://Securifi Almond - (3 Minute Setup) Touchscreen Wireless Router / Range Extender) to our network. It was very easy to set up via the touchscreen. We placed it upstairs, toward the center of the house and we now have a solid signal throughout the upstairs.

[Jim Becker]

Sean, I run multiple access points in our home for full coverage. This structure has a lot of issues with wireless signals due to the materials it's constructed with, so multiple WiFi access points and a Microcell for our cell phones isn't optional.

[Ryan Mooney]

If your access point has the option for it I'd start by adding a better external omni directional antenna as it will be a heck of a lot less work (and somewhat cheaper) than adding another AP. Usually you can just unscrew the little flippy antenna off of the back and screw on a new larger one. It may not actually solve your problem but its an easy first pass.

Past that if you can put in another AP closer to the area you don't have good signal then yes it should probably help some, although how much depends on the signal strength from the AP, how much of what is in the way (if there is still a concrete wall in the way or a lot of metal studs or... you could still have problems), distance, etc... So its really hard to definitively say "yes running a cable and putting an access point closer will help" without knowing how much closer. You could try it by just moving the existing AP and plugging it in to see how much signal strength you get at the proposed new location which should give you a good idea.

If you do add another AP remember it needs to be on one of the complementary channels so it doesn't overlap to much with the current one or you might have worse connectivity everywhere.

[Sean Troy]

If your access point has the option for it I'd start by adding a better external omni directional antenna as it will be a heck of a lot less work (and somewhat cheaper) than adding another AP. Usually you can just unscrew the little flippy antenna off of the back and screw on a new larger one. It may not actually solve your problem but its an easy first pass.

Past that if you can put in another AP closer to the area you don't have good signal then yes it should probably help some, although how much depends on the signal strength from the AP, how much of what is in the way (if there is still a concrete wall in the way or a lot of metal studs or... you could still have problems), distance, etc... So its really hard to definitively say "yes running a cable and putting an access point closer will help" without knowing how much closer. You could try it by just moving the existing AP and plugging it in to see how much signal strength you get at the proposed new location which should give you a good idea.

If you do add another AP remember it needs to be on one of the complementary channels so it doesn't overlap to much with the current one or you might have worse connectivity everywhere.
My wireless is built in to my router/modem (Arris TG862) Our phone also runs through that modem. Wouldn't be to much of a big deal to run the cable under the house and up through the floor in the closet that is under the stairs. Her room is right next to the stairs. Most of upstairs get good signal except my oldest daughters bedroom. That also is the farthest point from the router/modem and her wall has metal duct work in it. How do I find out what complementary channels I need? One other option is to get her unlimited data on her phone, that's what I really need the wi-fi for. I think an access point would end up being cheaper in the long run. As always thanks, Sean

[Mike Henderson]

Just an added comment. When I put in my additional wireless router, I use a couple of HomePlug devices that communicate through the power lines. Works fine and saved me the problem of running Cat-5. But if it's easy to run the wire, that's probably cheaper.

Mike

[Sean Troy]

If your access point has the option for it I'd start by adding a better external omni directional antenna as it will be a heck of a lot less work (and somewhat cheaper) than adding another AP. Usually you can just unscrew the little flippy antenna off of the back and screw on a new larger one. It may not actually solve your problem but its an easy first pass.

Past that if you can put in another AP closer to the area you don't have good signal then yes it should probably help some, although how much depends on the signal strength from the AP, how much of what is in the way (if there is still a concrete wall in the way or a lot of metal studs or... you could still have problems), distance, etc... So its really hard to definitively say "yes running a cable and putting an access point closer will help" without knowing how much closer. You could try it by just moving the existing AP and plugging it in to see how much signal strength you get at the proposed new location which should give you a good idea.

If you do add another AP remember it needs to be on one of the complementary channels so it doesn't overlap to much with the current one or you might have worse connectivity everywhere.
Pretty clear signal to where I want to put the WAP and i agree, I have a set of the larger antenna ready to go.

[Ryan Mooney]

My wireless is built in to my router/modem (Arris TG862) Our phone also runs through that modem. Wouldn't be to much of a big deal to run the cable under the house and up through the floor in the closet that is under the stairs. Her room is right next to the stairs. Most of upstairs get good signal except my oldest daughters bedroom. That also is the farthest point from the router/modem and her wall has metal duct work in it. How do I find out what complementary channels I need? One other option is to get her unlimited data on her phone, that's what I really need the wi-fi for. I think an access point would end up being cheaper in the long run. As always thanks, Sean

Yep if you can run the cable easiest that will give you the best bang per dollar for sure.

For channel selection basically you want them to be as far apart as possible but generally no closer than 4 channels from adjacent APs (you can set the channel from 1 to 11 on most US devices, in most of europe and ?? you can get 1 to 14). So ideally 1 and 11. but 1, 6 and 11 or 6 and 11 will work (as well as other combination similarly spaced). Many devices come defaulting to channel 6. It becomes less problematic the further apart the APs are but you could well notice it in the overlapping space.

You can also sometimes have problems from neighbors wifi interfering - if you can see their network on your wifi network list odds are they could be causing interference. Unfortunately none of the standard tools on most computers show what channel the other networks are on so you have to download a third party tool like http://www.metageek.net/products/inssider/ (which is available for windows and apple computers - linux has some built in tools) to find that out.

There is an amusing mathematical correlation to this called the "map coloring problem" of which the "four color theorem" is a specific and interesting case: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_color_theorem

The HomePlug Powerline stuff Mike mentioned is pretty cool (if you search "ethernet over power" you can find several different options - I don't have a specific recommendation) but there is a caveat that it doesn't cross phases and can sometimes have a bit of loss if it even has to go through a breaker so depending on your power layout it can be a pain or a lifesaver (cat-5 is still likely cheaper if its easy to run).

One other note is that with some clever setup you can reduce problems with roaming. Roaming is when you are walking from one side of the house to the other and you don't want to have to manually flip your phone to the AP with the better signal :D The cheapest is to set all the APs with the same SSID ("network name") and security level and password and ~many~ devices ~mostly~ work with that (caveats around many and mostly :D). This also usually works best if you can use the same type/model of AP (although they've gotten generally better over the years so might not be as bad nowadays). Clearly in this case the same model is probably not desired and I don't see an Arris stand alone wifi AP so I guess try whatever you can get - a lot of people I know seem to be liking the Asus APs nowadays, I haven't upgraded in years personally so that's completely second hand. Something like: http://www.amazon.com/RT-N12-Wireless-N-Advance-coverage-Router/dp/B005EIH4DE that can operate as a repeater/bridge would be easiest to configure into the network (double disclaimer - not recommending that specific AP Asus has others that go for closer to 3x that price and I haven't compared specs thoroughly but "bridge" and "repeater" are key words meaning that you can have it on the same IP network which makes roaming easier - you also want to configure the second AP to NOT provide DHCP/hand out IP addresses pretty much all of them can be configured to turn that off but it probably defaults to on).

More expensive solutions magically hand your device off between APs and optimize for location but they can be big $$'s. A technophile friend actually put in some Aruba APs that are several $$$'s each and while they do work fantastically I'd have a hard time justifying the slight convenience for the cost myself.

[Jim Matthews]

Funny that this comes up, just as I've tackled the same issues.

I purchased a new product that has the 802.11ac spec, and it is considerably faster than it's replacement.
I moved the wireless "dongle" from the farthest device closer with a simple USB Male to Female cable and increased reception perceptibly.

That dongle was then installed inside a stainless steel strainer (http://hackedgadgets.com/2006/08/21/usb-wifi-antenna/) (no kidding) that acts as a directional antenna.

I now capture 98% of the available signal (802.11n band) available.
Having other devices operate in the higher frequencies means that multiple devices operate with less competition for the router.

FYI - The new Wireless access point/802.11ac adapter achieve transfer rates on the order of 150MB per second - which is faster than the old router by more than half.

[Curt Harms]

I just put pulled up newegg.com and put in this search criteria: "wireless repeater". Here's the page that came up:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&DEPA=0&Order=BESTMATCH&Description=wireless+repeater&N=100006688&isNodeId=1

Anything there look interesting?

[Sean Troy]

I just put pulled up newegg.com and put in this search criteria: "wireless repeater". Here's the page that came up:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&DEPA=0&Order=BESTMATCH&Description=wireless+repeater&N=100006688&isNodeId=1

Anything there look interesting?
What is the difference between a repeater a access point and a range extender?

[Ryan Mooney]

What is the difference between a repeater a access point and a range extender?

(warning vast simplifications ahead so please fellow geeks don't hang me high :D).

So a straight "repeater" will basically take a signal and repeat it; its effectively synonymous with a "range extender" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wireless_repeater. Technically this means it also operates in "bridge" mode where the packets are all on the same logical (ethernet protocol in this case) network. This simplifies your network setup so that you don't have to have another IP network. You can think of the network as layers. At the bottom is the physical medium (wifi, cat-5) on top of which is ethernet (this is the layer than you want to bridge/repeat at) and about that is the IP layer. You can separate "networks" at each of these layers, if you separate them at the IP layer into logical IP networks you'll have to have a different range of IP addresses on both and setup routing and transparent roaming won't work and .. you probably don't want to go there :D

An access point is basically a device that can take WIFI and bridge (ethernet<->ethernet) or route (ip<->ip) it onto another network (cat-5, wifi, dsl, cable modem, etc..). The straight repeaters usually just do WIFI<->WIFI. The downside to a straight repeater is that it has to be able to get signal from the current access point and its using the bandwidth of the current wifi network for backhaul from the repeater (the latter is generally not a huge issue as you probably have more bandwidth there than you have to your ISP anyway).

If you can get good signal from a central location (say by the stairs) between where your current AP is and where the signal currently is bad in both directions a range extender is a quick and easy way to extend the wifi network because you don't need more wires - basically it receives signal from the current AP and re-broadcasts it on another network and then vice versa for the return trip. If your signal is mediocre in either direction adding a wired AP in bridge mode will obviously work better (chain as strong as its weakest link basically). You can in theory chain two extenders together but you can start running into some weird problems if you aren't careful with the setup (and if you don't grok the underlying setup it can be a real pain for folks to debug).

Hopefully that is slightly clearer than mud :rolleyes:


Jim - that strainer hack is pretty cool. For giggles you should also check out the pringles can and dinty moore beef stew antennas. Probably less useful in your case but handy if you wanted to hookup an outbuilding and didn't want to run new wires..

[Larry Browning]

What I did turned into a rather fun project when I wanted wireless access in my workshop. I had previously run a cat5 cable from the house to the shop about 100' away. I was using that one cable to connect to an internet radio I have. I thought it would be cool if I had an access point down there to hook up my phone so I could play Pandora instead of the radio. I wanted to spend as little money as possible, because this was a completely optional thing I wanted to do. I had a old linksys router laying around that I had replaced with a newer one a few years ago and I discovered that the firmware could be replaced by DD-WRT. I also discovered that after replacing the firmware it could be configured as a wireless access point AND still have the wired ports available. I was able to do this using the very same SSID as the main router in the house. I now have full signal WAP along with 4 wired ports in my shop. I did all this with zero cost. Pretty cool, and I had a blast learning all about DD-WRT and networking to boot.
If you don't have an old router laying around the house, you should be able to pick one up on CR for less than $15.

[Brian Kerley]

I would try to move your current access point to a better location, if possible. If that doesn't work, replace the antennas. If that doesn't work, get a better access point, or something with N or AC and MIMO antennas.

Any range extenders or repeaters are going to effectively cut your speed in half for your network.

[Dan Hintz]

The downside to a straight repeater is that it has to be able to get signal from the current access point and its using the bandwidth of the current wifi network for backhaul from the repeater (the latter is generally not a huge issue as you probably have more bandwidth there than you have to your ISP anyway).

Definitely keep this in mind if you do wireless video off of an extender. Bit rates can quickly diminish and your video can go to pot in a heartbeat, especially if the signal is approaching the edge of quality.

[Sean Troy]

I would try to move your current access point to a better location, if possible. If that doesn't work, replace the antennas. If that doesn't work, get a better access point, or something with N or AC and MIMO antennas.

Any range extenders or repeaters are going to effectively cut your speed in half for your network.
Don't have an access point, That's what I'm talking about getting.

[Sean Troy]

Definitely keep this in mind if you do wireless video off of an extender. Bit rates can quickly diminish and your video can go to pot in a heartbeat, especially if the signal is approaching the edge of quality.
Only need for the increased wi-fi is for my daughters iphone up in her room. She maxes her data plan and I thought it would be cheaper to get her a better wi-fi signal.

[Sean Troy]

Found a range extender for cheap that has all good reviews. I'll try that instead of changing her data plan for now. Thanks for all the help. I knew I could get it here.

[Brian Kerley]

Don't have an access point, That's what I'm talking about getting.
Sorry, I mean getting a new wireless router as opposed to an extender for the current network.

Your speeds cut in half when you do the repeater/extender.

[Larry Browning]

Found a range extender for cheap that has all good reviews. I'll try that instead of changing her data plan for now. Thanks for all the help. I knew I could get it here.
Sean,
I would seriously consider other options besides a range extender if it is going to cut your wireless speed in half. Get a real access point. You can easily make one from an old wireless router with DD-WRT. If you don't have one laying around, I would check with your co-workers, neighbors, family and friends to see if somebody has one they would either give you or sell for 10 bucks. If you think you are not tech savoy enough to do something like this, I say it's high time you learned something new. It's not like this network/internet thing is going away anytime soon. It is really not that hard to do, and think about how good you will feel when you get it working!

[Ryan Mooney]

Sorry, I mean getting a new wireless router as opposed to an extender for the current network.

Your speeds cut in half when you do the repeater/extender.

That's only somewhat true :rolleyes:

So it doesn't actually cut your speed in half usually.... Basically you are using some of your existing wifi bandwidth as backhaul for the repeater. So the bandwidth loss is dependent on how much the new link gets used and how much you use your existing wifi and how fast the connection is from your existing access point. Odds are good you have more wifi bandwidth than you have internet bandwidth anyway so its likely not a huge problem.

Bad ascii drawing:

Phone ----A----- Repeater -----B----- Existing Access Point[1] ---- C ----- Cable Company
Existing user -------------------B-----------+

So the link from A will use some of the bandwidth from B when the A link is actually in use. Effectively its the same as having two users connected to B. Adding more users to B doesn't cut the bandwidth linearly, it depends on a bunch of factors but usually the limit is at C anyway.

This assumes that you don't end up putting the link A on the same (or an overlapping) channel as B otherwise your BW will drop to probably less than half all over due to interference. A similar problem could be had with adding another AP though if you didn't put it on a non conflicting channel so its not really dependent on it being a repeater.

My primary concern with a repeater would be more if you have marginal signal strength between it and the existing AP.

[1] The thing you have from the cable company is indeed an access point :D

On a related note:
There are also a lot of other things that can hose your 802.11 network because the spectrum used is also a dumping ground for excess EMF from a number of other sources. Like when we had an old microwave that would shut down our wifi - which was particularly annoying as we used the wifi to stream movies so when you'd try to make popcorn in the middle of a movie... blargh! Or a proposed type of street light where all the wifi in a neighborhood would shut down when they came on in the evening .. or ...

[Pete Duffy]

Big house with plaster & metal lath=no signal at one end.

I bought this: http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=7343105&Sku=A191-0012

Plugged it into the wall, plugged an ethernet cable to it from my computer, and it was set up in under 5 minutes. You can download a cool app from them that finds networks and displays the signal strength so you can place the the AP in an optimal location.

Works like a charm.

[Frank Trinkle]

Easy solution. Apple Airport Express units. Virtually plug and play. Small unit will plug to any outlet without cables or wires, and extend your wi-fi network. Can also be used as a dedicated router. We use them in a big house to extend the wi-fi to pool, second patio, garage workshop, and second floor. We get 5-bar wi-fi throughout. Does NOT require Apple computers, and works just fine with Windows.
http://www.apple.com/airport-express/

[Curt Harms]

One caution with DD-WRT. It's not available for all routers, here's a list of supported devices:

http://www.dd-wrt.com/wiki/index.php/Supported_Devices

It's slick what you can do with otherwise pedestrian boxes though, isn't it?

[Larry Browning]

One caution with DD-WRT. It's not available for all routers, here's a list of supported devices:

http://www.dd-wrt.com/wiki/index.php/Supported_Devices

It's slick what you can do with otherwise pedestrian boxes though, isn't it?
Yes it is. It just seems odd to me that my suggestion has gotten no comments (other than this one). To me, an additional access point is the very best hassle free solution to this problem. He can go out and purchase a new one for $80 - $100 or he can spend a little time learning something new and pretty much do it for free. It just seems like a no brainer to me.

[Ryan Mooney]

Yes it is. It just seems odd to me that my suggestion has gotten no comments (other than this one). To me, an additional access point is the very best hassle free solution to this problem. He can go out and purchase a new one for $80 - $100 or he can spend a little time learning something new and pretty much do it for free. It just seems like a no brainer to me.

Well that assumes he has an old access point laying around which doesn't seem to be likely in this case. Also, while I'm certainly on board with doing more complicated stuff the longer I've been in tech the less likely I've gotten to suggesting people do anything very complicated, you can end up "owning" people computer problems in a big hurry. For instance I now generally recommend folks buy a computer from a major manufacturer but would pretty much never do so myself.

[Sean Troy]

Sean,
I would seriously consider other options besides a range extender if it is going to cut your wireless speed in half. Get a real access point. You can easily make one from an old wireless router with DD-WRT. If you don't have one laying around, I would check with your co-workers, neighbors, family and friends to see if somebody has one they would either give you or sell for 10 bucks. If you think you are not tech savoy enough to do something like this, I say it's high time you learned something new. It's not like this network/internet thing is going away anytime soon. It is really not that hard to do, and think about how good you will feel when you get it working!
Larry, as cheap as the extender costs, I'll try that first. Worst case, I'll use it else where. Might save me crawling around under the house to wire an access point. At this point, a 50% reduction in signal is still better than none but all I've spoken with that use an extender say they have little if any noticeable signal loss. I'm still keeping an access point option open. Thanks, Sean

[Larry Browning]

Larry, as cheap as the extender costs, I'll try that first. Worst case, I'll use it else where. Might save me crawling around under the house to wire an access point. At this point, a 50% reduction in signal is still better than none but all I've spoken with that use an extender say they have little if any noticeable signal loss. I'm still keeping an access point option open. Thanks, Sean
Well, at least you have no shortage of options.:) Good luck to you. Let us know how it works out for you.
BTW: I think you can get an extender that also works as an access point, so if the extender doesn't work out too well, you can turn it into a wired access point with no added expense.
BTW#2: I found this basic definition of extender vs access point which I think explains the differences very well.
http://www.speedguide.net/faq_in_q.php?qid=385

[Sean Troy]

Well, at least you have no shortage of options.:) Good luck to you. Let us know how it works out for you.
BTW: I think you can get an extender that also works as an access point, so if the extender doesn't work out too well, you can turn it into a wired access point with no added expense.
BTW#2: I found this basic definition of extender vs access point which I think explains the differences very well.
http://www.speedguide.net/faq_in_q.php?qid=385
Thanks Larry, I'll let you know how things work out with my first attemp.

[Sean Troy]

Thanks Larry, I'll let you know how things work out with my first attemp.
Wireless access point works great. I have full signal where I had hoped.

[Bruce Page]

I installed the NETGEAR WN3000RP-100NAS Universal Wi-Fi Range Extender midway between the router in my home office and the shop computer (Windows 7). I went from 1 bar to 5 bars. Installation was plug & play.