G96 Gun Blue - adding patina to metal

[Matthew N. Masail]

I'm looking for a way to patina metal without heat, as the metal is connected to wooden parts. this is the only gun blue I can get locally

"G96 1064 gun blue cream" it's on amazon

I was wondering if anyone knows from experiance if this stuff holds up to handling? will it rub off or stay throughout the years?
Thanks

[jim goddard]

Have you looked for browning? Seems that would give a more pleasing result. At any rate if this is cold bluing Ive found it not as substantial as the hot version. However, neither is immune to scratching and hard treatment.

[Matthew N. Masail]

I didn't know what to look for.... I just started searching and found many heat related techniques and then cold bluing... mu goal is to add patina to metal parts in shop-made tools... like infill planes.

[george wilson]

I think just polished bright plane bodies look better. I use Oxpho Blue from Brownell's in Montezuma,Iowa. Cold blue is not as deep or as durable as hot bluing,as said. I only use the cold blue when I am antiquing brass or steel parts. Actually,for steel I also do other things not useful to you. I haven't heard of the blue you can get.

[Stanley Covington]

I didn't know what to look for.... I just started searching and found many heat related techniques and then cold bluing... mu goal is to add patina to metal parts in shop-made tools... like infill planes.

Jim Goddard's suggestion of rust brown is excellent, and will create a finish tougher than hot or cold chemical blue. Brownells.com has several solutions, one I am familiar with is Pilkingtons Rust Blue http://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-tools-supplies/metal-prep-coloring/metal-bluing/specialty-bluing-chemicals/pilkington-classic-american-rust-blue-prod9815.aspx

Note that Pilkingtons is a rust "BLUE" not rust "BROWN" solution, so the process is a bit different than the directions, and is easier than rust blue. It makes a nice color that is much much more durable than hot or cold chemical blue. You can make the solution yourself from nitric acid if you have access to some. You also need a "carding brush" which Brownells also sells, a soft wire brush (don't get the wheel) of fine stainless wires. This tool is absolutely essential.

On the other hand, "Rust Bluing" (vs "Rust Browning") adds the extra step of boiling or steaming the browned metal. The heat and water step used in rust bluing changes the chemical makeup of the iron rust. In appearance, it is a dark black (not actually blue). Physically, it is an extremely rust-resistant layer of magnetite much much harder (Moh 5-6 approximately the same as glass), and penetrating deeper into the metal than hot or cold chemical blue. In fact, it takes a focused effort to get through it with a file. For centuries, rust blue was, and still remains, the absolutely best, toughest and most corrosion-resistant finish for ultra-expensive custom rifles and shotguns. Purdey & Sons, or Holland & Holland in London will do it to your bespoke shotgun for an additional hefty fee and an extra month. But it takes time and patience, and lots of handwork, whereas a hot chemical blue is very quick and cheap to do in the factory with minimal training, and is shiny as a new penny :). And about as durable.:(

From Wikipedia: "Rust Bluing" and "Fume Bluing" provide the best rust and corrosion resistance as the process continually converts any metal that is capable of rusting into magnetite (Fe3O4). Treating with an oiled coating enhances the protection offered by the bluing. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bluing_%28steel%29

In other words, ordinary rust is Fe2O3, a unstable chemical that will continue to oxidize if exposed to water and oxygen. The heat and water change the iron oxide to Fe3O4, a much stabler substance which does not react with water and oxygen readily, and is also much harder. The temps are low so the process will not draw temper from tools or blades (or weaken the silver solder or brazing joining doublegun barrels). Works great for hunting or kitchen knives. I have even finished old sawblades using this method with good results. Works great for furniture and cabinet hardware too (a bit of overkill, perhaps).

2 pence

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/9/9e/M1935A-RustBlue-FirstOiling-01.jpg/800px-M1935A-RustBlue-FirstOiling-01.jpg

[Tony Shea]

Certainly a long drawn out process but pretty impressive about how durable a finish it creates. If done right it seems as though it can produce top notch results in appearance as well. I def understand why the added feature when buying a custom made gun creates such a premium in price. I wouldn't mind giving it go on a couple rifles I have kicking around that I don't mind refinishing due to value concerns.

What kind of frame and slide is that Stanley? I thought it was a Hi Power at first but now after looking it over I am not sure what it is.

[Phil Thien]

But it takes time and patience, and lots of handwork, whereas a hot chemical blue is very quick and cheap to do in the factory with minimal training, and is shiny as a new penny :). And about as durable.:(

I'm by no means a chemist, but I was under the impression that a factory black-oxide finish was, indeed, magnetite (Fe3O4), and no different from the finish achieved using older, less caustic methods (other than being much faster).

None of the methods produce an especially corrosion-resistant surface.

[Stanley Covington]

What kind of frame and slide is that Stanley? I thought it was a Hi Power at first but now after looking it over I am not sure what it is.

Non-toxic, non-flammable, and very durable. Getting it to even can be a challenge, so I suggest you practice on low-value stuff first.

The pistol frame/slide is one I borrowed from a Wikipedia page. I believe it is a SIG 211, or M1935A, an excellent WODAD. I don't own one, and for any government agencies reading this, I don't have any weapons here in Japan other than my wife's rapier tongue.

Stan

[Stanley Covington]

I'm by no means a chemist, but I was under the impression that a factory black-oxide finish was, indeed, magnetite (Fe3O4), and no different from the finish achieved using older, less caustic methods (other than being much faster).

None of the methods produce an especially corrosion-resistant surface.

I agree that most factory methods are not very durable. Factory black oxide finish, as I understand it, may be similar chemically, but I agree it is not very durable. There are factory methods my clients have used that use carburization to create a deep, durable, carbon-based finish in steel when combined with heat treating. Again, a different animal, and not similar in appearance.

Rust blue takes 5 days to a week to do right (nearly all that time is spent waiting). A factory cannot sell product at the price the process requires.

Stan

[Phil Thien]

I agree that most factory methods are not very durable. Factory black oxide finish, as I understand it, may be similar chemically, but I agree it is not very durable. There are factory methods my clients have used that use carburization to create a deep, durable, carbon-based finish in steel when combined with heat treating. Again, a different animal, and not similar in appearance.

Rust blue takes 5 days to a week to do right (nearly all that time is spent waiting). A factory cannot sell product at the price the process requires.

Stan

Actually, my point was the factory method and the "5 days to a week" method, are pretty much identical in the final product, and neither is very durable.

I'm guessing the slower 5-day method you are talking about would probably etch a part more, resulting in a thicker, darker (or at least less reflective) finish. But the same thing can be accomplished, I believe, by first etching when performing the hot black oxide method. At least, that is how I've gotten the finish I've desired when having parts professionally treated.

Of course, I could be completely wrong. I have done by own method of hot black oxide treatment, I've used products like Oxpho Blue, and I've had factory work done, too. Much of what I'm saying is simply from my own limited experiences.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

Without derailing things too much, what's a WODAD? It's going to annoy me if I can't figure it out, and the Google isn't any help!

[Stanley Covington]

Actually, my point was the factory method and the "5 days to a week" method, are pretty much identical in the final product, and neither is very durable.

I'm guessing the slower 5-day method you are talking about would probably etch a part more, resulting in a thicker, darker (or at least less reflective) finish. But the same thing can be accomplished, I believe, by first etching when performing the hot black oxide method. At least, that is how I've gotten the finish I've desired when having parts professionally treated.

Of course, I could be completely wrong. I have done by own method of hot black oxide treatment, I've used products like Oxpho Blue, and I've had factory work done, too. Much of what I'm saying is simply from my own limited experiences.

I agree that Oxpho Blue is not at all durable, nor are the other alkaline salts hot blue methods. What they are is very quick, relatively cheap, and make an attractive shiny finish (a least the better ones do). But chemically, the iron is still hanging out in the atmosphere rusting, albeit a bit slower than bright iron would. If your experience is that commercial black oxide is not durable, then it is absolutely not the same process as Rust Blue, which is very durable and corrosion resistant. I was not BS'ing when I said a file would not easily cut through a thoroughly performed, fully converted rust blue finish on plain carbon steel. Chemically, you can see how Fe3O4 would be more resistant to reduction than Fe2O3. It is not an etch, it is not a 1/1000 micron coating, or anodizing, it converts the iron into a substantial layer of hematite (aka lodestone). This has a downside, though, in that it can change dimensions and tolerances a bit. Not a problem with a custom gun that will be handfitted in any case, but not so good for a mass-production operation. Give it a try. You will be pleasantly surprised.

[Stanley Covington]

Without derailing things too much, what's a WODAD? It's going to annoy me if I can't figure it out, and the Google isn't any help!

WODAD = "Weapon(s) Of Death and Destruction"

[Phil Thien]

Give it a try. You will be very surprised.

I have. Again, there is no difference, it is all Fe3O4.

[Stanley Covington]

I have. Again, there is no difference, it is all Fe3O4.

Phil:

I don't mean to be argumentative, I just want to make sure I understand. You wrote: "Actually, my point was the factory method and the "5 days to a week" method, are pretty much identical in the final product, and neither is very durable."

By "factory method" did you mean factory-performed alkaline salt hot bluing, or factory-performed Black Oxide?

What is your definition of "durable?"

There are no factories doing rust bluing that I know of outside of the UK, and very few custom gunsmiths performing it nowadays either, so how did you go about comparing the durability of "factory method(s)" to "5 days to a week" rust bluing? Did you rust blue some of your guns or tools yourself and take a file to them or expose them to salt air? I did.

Stan

[Phil Thien]

Phil:

I don't mean to be argumentative, I just want to make sure I understand. You wrote: "Actually, my point was the factory method and the "5 days to a week" method, are pretty much identical in the final product, and neither is very durable."

By "factory method" did you mean factory-performed alkaline salt hot bluing, or factory-performed Black Oxide?


I know, I'm concerned I'm sounding argumentative.

But, those are the same thing. Factory performed alkaline salt hot bluing, and factory-performed Black Oxide, are one in the same. It is all black oxide. Sometimes it takes on a blue appearance, but that is typically due to the high degree of polishing of the part before treatment, and carding afterwards. It is all red rust converted to black rust.


What is your definition of "durable?"

There are no factories doing rust bluing that I know of outside of the UK, and very few custom gunsmiths performing it nowadays either, so how did you go about comparing the durability of "factory method(s)" to "5 days to a week" rust bluing? Did you rust blue some of your guns or tools yourself and take a file to them or expose them to salt air? I did.

Stan


Corrosion resistance.

Yes, I have "rust-blued" hardware. No, it wasn't especially durable. About what I'd expect from any black-oxide treatment. Which isn't bad, mind you. But it has to be treated with oil or wax, and I wouldn't leave it in a corrosive environment very long without cleaning it with oil or wax.

The thing you have to keep in mind is that none of these treatments results in a very thick layer of protection. That is one of the advantages of black oxide, the dimensions don't change much. But they don't offer much protection, either.

Edit to add: Here is the Wikipedia article on black oxide:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_oxide

The first line is:

This article is about modern black oxide coatings. For historical uses, see Bluing (steel) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bluing_(steel)).

So historically, a black oxide finish was called bluing of the steel. But it is the same thing by a different name.

[Matthew N. Masail]

Thank you for that Stanley! it is very intresting... I wonder what would be the result using a rust blue\brown without putting the parts into
boiling water?... I wouldn't want to dip an infill plane into boiling water..

this one is safe to ship by air, what do you think?
http://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-tools-supplies/metal-prep-coloring/blackening-browning/2-oz-laurel-mountain-brown-sku519100025-7780-19665.aspx

[Stanley Covington]

Thank you for that Stanley! it is very intresting... I wonder what would be the result using a rust blue\brown without putting the parts into
boiling water?... I wouldn't want to dip an infill plane into boiling water..

this one is safe to ship by air, what do you think?
http://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-tools-supplies/metal-prep-coloring/blackening-browning/2-oz-laurel-mountain-brown-sku519100025-7780-19665.aspx



Without the water/steam treatment, the finish will be rust browning, which is quite attractive, and if done thoroughly, very corrosion resistant. It will not be as hard or tough as rust bluing however.

The wood in a infill plane would be a problem. You can't remove the wood?

The process changes tolerances (rust makes iron increase in volume), so be careful where you use this finish to prevent critical tolerance from getting mucked up. Lacquer will work to mask delicate parts.

Laurel Mountain Forge products are pretty good in my experience. It is simply a mild solution of nitric acid, and not dangerous, so I think they will ship it via air. Track of the Wolf also carries it for the same price. http://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/1022/1/LMF-BROWN

You will absolutely need a carding brush. Not just any brush will do, I promise you. If you plan to do a lot of it, the carding wheels are good, but you still need the hand brush to get into details. http://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-tools-supplies/metal-prep-coloring/wire-brushing-carding-tools/hand-carding-brush-prod24795.aspx

Don't be satisfied with a quick application or two: you want to get the rust deep and smooth enough to seal the surface thoroughly. I suggest you do a practice piece before tackling an expensive infill plane to get the feel of how to get an EVEN finish with the acidic solution you plan to use. There is an article by John Bivins in Rifle Magazine in the mid 70's about rust bluing I can send you next week (on different drive). You need to keep the metal being rust browned in a humid climate for the rust to progress properly to create a soft, fine-grained rust that cards well and results in a smooth even surface. You also need to accomplish the process over a minimum of 5 days with carding and reapplication daily. There are no shortcuts.

I think you will like the result.

Stan

[Matthew N. Masail]

I can't remove the wood if I go ahead and do as I planed - screwing and peening it in the body... I guess I could just screw it with countersunk screws and leave the screws showing, epoxying it in after the Rusting.... might be really nice - brown steel finish and brass screws... Thanks for much for the links, I'd love to read the article when you get a chance.

[Ron Brese]

It can be done. I used the Birchwood Casey Perma Blue and the Oxpho Blue products. I find it's better to apply the solution until it's darker than intended and then work the surface with gray Scotchbrite until you get the look you're after. I then rub in a couple of coats of True Oil into the metal and cure it in my finishing kiln overnight. I also used it on the brass as well. It takes longer for the reaction to occur on brass but it will get there. As far as durability goes, only time will tell. Typically one is not walking thru the wilderness with a hand plane.

Ron

270978270979

[Matthew N. Masail]

Yeah I know you've done it - it was the inspiration that got me started on the idea! :)

[Stanley Covington]

I can't remove the wood if I go ahead and do as I planed - screwing and peening it in the body... I guess I could just screw it with countersunk screws and leave the screws showing, epoxying it in after the Rusting.... might be really nice - brown steel finish and brass screws... Thanks for much for the links, I'd love to read the article when you get a chance.

Send me an email address via PM and I will email the file.

Stan