Advice on DT/Tenon saw

[Daniel Rode]

If anyone has read my other posts, it should be obvious that I'm on a journey to learn the basics of hand tools and incorporate that into my woodworking. I also have 3 kids in college, so I'm cash poor and need to be extremely frugal. I have a set of chisels I'm comfortable with and a recently acquired #4 plane that seems to be up to the task. What's missing is a decent (but cheap) saw for joinery.

I have a couple of get saws. One is a small Crown razor type saw. IMO, it's mostly worthless. I have another no-name gent x-cut saw that's larger with more aggressive teeth. It cuts faster and doesn't bind much but it's sloppy. I also really don't like the gent style handle.

I'm sure this has been asked 100 times before. I've read a number of the threads but I still don't feel like I know what I need to get started.

I'm concerned (only) with joinery; mainly sawing tenons and dovetails. Additionally, I'm focused on tenons under 2" long and boards between 3/8" and 3/4" thick. I want to buy 1 saw to learn and practice with. I could probably swing the $70-$80 for a veritas carcass or dovetail saw but that's about the limit to my budget.

X-cut or rip? Carcass or dovetail? Veritas or brand X?

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

[Chris Griggs]

LV rip carcass saw will give you the most versatility in that range. The extra size and slightly coarser teeth makes it a little more versatile then a 9" DT saw, but it will still be plenty fine enough to learn to cut DTs with. While it won't xcut as smooth as an xcut saw, you can use it to xcut. Smaller toothed rip saws in particular xcut without a lot of trouble. I would much rather xcut with a rip saw then rip with an xcut.

My first nice back saw was the LN rip carcass which was nearly identical proportion. I used it for dovetails, small tenons, and small xcuts. It served me very well as a first saw.

[Hilton Ralphs]

For the same money you could get yourself a decent Disston backsaw and still have change for a saw file, saw set and mill file.

[Chuck Nickerson]

In your price range if you're looking for ready-to-go, the LV carcass rip is the best bet.
The smaller size 'dovetail' saw will be a bit small for cutting tenons for furniture-sized work.

A used saw properly rehabbed could perhaps be had for less, but that involves trusting the source.

[Daniel Rode]

One point I forgot to mention. I'm leaning toward a rip saw. The reason is that I'd always cut a layout line with my marking knife before making a crosscut. In fact, I'm starting to adopt the same for crosscutting on the table saw and other machine cuts. It's very accurate, doesn't get fuzzy from handling and no tearout.

[Daniel Rode]

I'm not even sure what saw to buy or how to saw accurately. I think finding and rehabbing a saw is a bit beyond me right now :)


In your price range if you're looking for ready-to-go, the LV carcass rip is the best bet.
The smaller size 'dovetail' saw will be a bit small for cutting tenons for furniture-sized work.

A used saw properly rehabbed could perhaps be had for less, but that involves trusting the source.

[Jim Koepke]

I have another no-name gent x-cut saw that's larger with more aggressive teeth. It cuts faster and doesn't bind much but it's sloppy. I also really don't like the gent style handle.

My thought is why not work with the saw you currently own?

If it is like my no-name gent saw the teeth are over set, which makes for a sloppy cut. It wouldn't be too difficult to make a new handle for this and give it a fresh set of teeth filed to your liking.

My understanding of what I want in a saw has been improved exponentially by utilizing inexpensive saws for training at filing teeth and making a handle.

jtk

[Curt Putnam]

The tooth count you want for 3/8" wood is much higher than you want for 3/4" wood. This means a saw designed for 3/4" wood will be quite (and possibly too) coarse for 3/8" stock which could mean splinters and blowouts. Conversely, the higher tooth count of a saw designed for 3/8" stock means that it will be very slow in 3/4" stock and could either bind or stop cutting due to sawdust clogging.

So the 1st step is to decide what the majority of your work will consist of. If you are building furniture then it will be 3/4" stock. I will suggest the LV 14 tpi DT saw IF the depth of cut is sufficient for you. I have 2 of these (obviously I like them but the handles are small for me.) I also have the carcass saw and like it although, at the moment, I'm using the DT saw and not the carcass. You 2nd step will be to work on a way(s) to acquire more saws.

As a point of interest, decent quality dozuki can be had for about 1/2 the price of an LV but their depth of cut will most likely be inadequate for your needs, but then there is the ryoba.

[Jim Koepke]

I'm not even sure what saw to buy or how to saw accurately. I think finding and rehabbing a saw is a bit beyond me right now :)

Sawing accurately is a skill one learns through practice.

The first step for me was to mark up a piece of scrap and make multiple cuts to the lines. Do not try to steer the saw, let it drive itself. This is how to find what tune up work might be needed. If the saw continually and predictably wonders to one side, then that side is likely set a bit more than the other. Run a stone, my preference is to use an oil stone, against the teeth from heal to toe on the side it wonders toward. This may need repeating.

There are many other considerations that would deserve a new thread.

If you do not start, then it will be beyond you in a year, then in two years...

That is why taking a saw you are not fond of to learn the ways of filing teeth and maybe even making a new handle has little down side.

There are plenty of people here willing to help and answer your questions. The worst that could happen is a saw with which you are not happy stays a saw with which you are not happy.

My learning curve on saw filling is still on a long upward slope, but that hasn't stopped me from trying.

Here is my first attempt:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?180712-Back-Saw-Build

The saw works well. Yes there are a few mistakes, but that is how one learns for the next time.

A few other links worthy of consideration when looking for saw information:

vintagesaws.com/cgi-bin/frameset.cgi?left=main&right=/library/library.html

norsewoodsmith.com/search/node/backsaw

jtk

[Daniel Rode]

Thanks Jim and everyone else who responded.

I set a goal for myself. I made it manageable and measurable.

Learn to accurately cut through dovetails and M&T joints by hand.

My personal metric is a to produce small sample projects by year's end. Achieving this goal is my primary concern. However, it is just a milestone in a larger goal to develop a variety of skills related to woodworking with hand tools.

I can't do this without a hand saw but I might be able to do it without a new saw. The reason I like the idea is that it require no money and I'll likely learn more. My concern is that the mechanics of holding and using a gent saw are different that using a larger pistol grip saw. My second concern is that the gent saw may not be deep enough for sawing tenons. However, I could choose a project with shorter tenons.

My larger concern, though, is the mechanics. Am I wasting my time by trying to learn with a gent saw versus a larger deeper, pistol grip saw?

[Mike Holbrook]

I think I would go with the LV saw too. another cost effective investment is a simple coping saw with a few blades. The coping saw will help get you through the dovetails and clean up tenons too. Tools For Working Wood has one for $11.95, a pack of 12 blades is $6.95.

You might look at the Gramercy Sash saw while you are at Tools For Working Wood. It is much more money than you want to spend, however, you might go to school on the tooth pattern this saw uses. It uses rip saw teeth slightly modified to improve the saws ability to cross cut. I happen to have this saw and it works very well for both jobs. If you modify your one back saw's teeth in this manner you will have a saw much better at doing both jobs.

[Jim Koepke]

My larger concern, though, is the mechanics. Am I wasting my time by trying to learn with a gent saw versus a larger deeper, pistol grip saw?

Learning how a hand saw works is a principle that will apply to any of the hand saws you use in the future.

Sometimes to reach a goal we encounter other goals, or hurdles, along the way.

It appears one of the goals, or hurdles, you have met is to find a saw which will make you feel confident in its use. In your case it comes down to trying to change an old saw into something that performs well for you or trying to decide which new saw on which to take a chance.

Each time one of my old saws is reworked my knowledge is rewarded with an understanding better of what I want in a new saw. I have thought of buying a saw kit, but I am also thinking of making my own completely from scratch. Time will tell.

jtk

[Daniel Rode]

Thanks again, Jim.

I'm going to take your advice and make a go with the saw I have and see what I can learn in the process. The exciting part is that I can start right away :)

[Shawn Stennett]

I too would recommend the LV 14 tpi saw. It is always nice to have an example of what is good and right when trying to work on what is wrong. You could always use the LV saw and work on the other saw when you feel more confident. You will not regret the LV saw and if you want to sell it there are plenty of people that like them a lot and you won't have trouble selling.

[Stan Calow]

Agree with Curt about checking into Japanese saws. I have a couple that were relatively cheap from LV and prefer them most of the time over my Lie-Nielsens.

[Tony Wilkins]

Japanese saws are a pretty cheap investment to see if you like them. I did and found for DT's that I prefer western back saws most of the time.

[David Weaver]

My larger concern, though, is the mechanics. Am I wasting my time by trying to learn with a gent saw versus a larger deeper, pistol grip saw?

Nobody really knows. I have a better time with a handled dovetail saw, but don't exactly have trouble cutting dovetails fine with a gents saw. I think the handled saw is a little easier to use, but if I never had one for dovetails, I could get by fine with a gents saw. The biggest problem I have with all of the gents saws I've come across is how they're set up to start (never handled an LN, i'm sure those are fine). They have teeth that look hook cut and a lot of set, and cut a sloppy line slowly.

If I were unloading a dovetail saw, i'd give you something cheap, but I don't have anything at this point that I'm unloading. One of the best things most of us can do for a cause is when folks like you come along, dispense a properly set up tool for a price such that if you change your mind, you'll lose nothing. If you lived closer, I'd set up your gent saw, it only takes 10 minutes to do it, including a sharpening.

It's a lot harder for us to make a suggestion about vintage this or that, because you can end up with all manner of things (bent saws, horrible tooth lines, missing teeth), or you can end up with a great saw. The odds aren't in your favor to get something good to start, and the cottage industry of charging a lot to sharpen saws has made getting a decent set up saw harder to do unless someone cuts you a break.

That leaves the veritas saw if you want to be sure you have an inexpensive saw that is ready to use.

[Daniel Rode]

I got home this evening and, despite the 95 degree heat, I grabbed my gent saw and a board. The saw is a Crown "Gent Back Saw" 8" 17tpi 1 1/2" depth. It's essentially brand new. Woodcraft sells them for about $25 but I think I picked it up on sale for around $15.

I grabbed a board and mounted made a number of pencil lines across the end and face and mounted it in my bench vice. I could cut an even amount parallell to my lines across the end every time but the cut down was at the same angle (to the right) every time is was off by about the same 1/16" at my 1" depth. I got a couple of cuts fairly straight by forcing the issue but it felt like I had the saw angled to 2:00 to do it and it still wandered to the right a bit.

A couple of things I noticed. A) The saw was hard to start but with a fairly long back pull (2-3"), I could get it going. B) The saw felt a bit bendy. C) The saw would bind almost every time. D) It was slow.I'm comparing the speed to what I've seen in many videos of dovetails, joints and cutoffs with other saws. 17 TPI probably is at least part of the issue.

Is it me that's off or the saw? I feel that after a dozen cuts, I'd get a little bit straighter but they were all off.

[Daniel Rode]

Thanks David. I appreciate the feedback. I think I just read an article of yours at wood central on Setting a Cap Iron. So, thanks for taking the time to write that as well. I learned quite a bit this week :)

[David Weaver]

It might be the saw, it might be you.

In terms of speed, part of the issue might be that you're watching videos of people cutting aspen and pine, and if you have anything harder, it's going to seem slow.

The fastest saws I've seen (without getting something impractical for dovetails) are about 3 strokes to 3/4" depth in walnut of the same thickness, and maybe 5 in good quality cherry. I'm pretty sure I could pull two strokes to full depth in radiata pine with the saw that LV sells as the "rip dozuki".

BUT, the bulk of your time building things is not going to be spent actually sawing, so accuracy is what you should care about. Wandering a 16th off the line is what you want to eliminate right now.

(btw, my pax gents saw is about 2/3rd the speed of an old replated nurse dovetail saw that I have, I would expect them to be a little slower, but not too much).

Glad people are still reading the cap iron article! It's pretty much the reason I've dumped all but a couple of my premium planes, and set aside most of the premium irons that I have.

[Jim Koepke]

I got home this evening and, despite the 95 degree heat, I grabbed my gent saw and a board. The saw is a Crown "Gent Back Saw" 8" 17tpi 1 1/2" depth. It's essentially brand new. Woodcraft sells them for about $25 but I think I picked it up on sale for around $15.

I grabbed a board and mounted made a number of pencil lines across the end and face and mounted it in my bench vice. I could cut an even amount parallell to my lines across the end every time but the cut down was at the same angle (to the right) every time is was off by about the same 1/16" at my 1" depth. I got a couple of cuts fairly straight by forcing the issue but it felt like I had the saw angled to 2:00 to do it and it still wandered to the right a bit.

A couple of things I noticed. A) The saw was hard to start but with a fairly long back pull (2-3"), I could get it going. B) The saw felt a bit bendy. C) The saw would bind almost every time. D) It was slow.I'm comparing the speed to what I've seen in many videos of dovetails, joints and cutoffs with other saws. 17 TPI probably is at least part of the issue.

Is it me that's off or the saw? I feel that after a dozen cuts, I'd get a little bit straighter but they were all off.

The saw wondering as you described sounds like the set is more on the right. It could also be the teeth are sharper on the right.

My recollection that in the information at the link at Norsewoodsmith.com is one for saw trouble shooting. Do you have any oil stones? If need be, a flattish rock would actually be able to do the job of stoning the teeth on one side. "Stoning the teeth" is sliding a stone down the tooth line from the tote toward the toe. Do this one time and take a test cut or two. Re-do and re-test as needed. The speed with how fast this works depends on the coarseness of the stone and how bad the set of the saw.

17 tpi will be slower than a saw with less teeth. Tooth geometry can also influence the speed of cut.

17 TPI shouldn't be a hard saw to start. Learning the feel of starting a saw takes practice. One thing that helped me was seeing a video of a woman moving the saw back and forth with it barely touching the work. By the time she lowered it into the wood it was cutting a very clean kerf. Kind of hard to explain but it has improved my sawing. Check videos on Youtube for making dovetails and you may find the same one.

Do you have any kind of caliper?

You mentioned the saw seemed bendy. This has me wondering if it is a light saw plate or if it is the set pulling the saw to one side or a combination causing the bending and binding.

jtk

[Chris Griggs]

That gents saw of yours could probably be tuned up pretty easily by someone with a little experience. Might be worthwhile to see if there are any creekers near you who know how to do it.

BUT FYI, I was just doing my morning peruse of the Lee Valley's site and saw that another free shipping event started today...so if you want to get one of their saws you have a chance to save a few bucks at present.

[James Conrad]

If you have a fine diamond stone, you can gently run the stone down the side that the saw is pulling in, a few strokes at a time until it is corrected. Assuming your sawing is not the problem.

[Adam Cruea]

If you're apprehensive about the LV carcase saws, I have a pair (x-cut and rip) that I can possibly loan you to try.

I ended up buying a BadAxe 14" sash and 12" dovetail to replace the pair (and my LV 20TPI dovetail). Not that there's anything *horribly* wrong with the LV saws, but for me the grips are a little less comfortable than the BadAxe saws. My paws are 4" wide and the handles on the LV are *slightly* pinching; the hang angle, to me, is to little, too. I want to reiterate, they are not bad saws at all and cut pretty darned straight. I just didn't want to remake a handle and still have a saw where the hang angle wasn't to my liking.

Though to be bluntly honest, the copper back on my BA dovetail saw makes me feel all warm and fuzzy. :D

[Hilton Ralphs]

If you're apprehensive about the LV carcase saws, I have a pair (x-cut and rip) that I can possibly loan you to try.

I ended up buying a BadAxe 14" sash and 12" dovetail to replace the pair.


So Adam, why don't you just donate them then? Pass it forward.

[Adam Cruea]

So Adam, why don't you just donate them then? Pass it forward.

I have thought about it, actually. The only issue I can think of, though, is when I need to get the BA saws sharpened. In a worst case scenario, I can use the LV saws to learn to sharpen. :)

[Chris Hachet]

If anyone has read my other posts, it should be obvious that I'm on a journey to learn the basics of hand tools and incorporate that into my woodworking. I also have 3 kids in college, so I'm cash poor and need to be extremely frugal. I have a set of chisels I'm comfortable with and a recently acquired #4 plane that seems to be up to the task. What's missing is a decent (but cheap) saw for joinery.

I have a couple of get saws. One is a small Crown razor type saw. IMO, it's mostly worthless. I have another no-name gent x-cut saw that's larger with more aggressive teeth. It cuts faster and doesn't bind much but it's sloppy. I also really don't like the gent style handle.

I'm sure this has been asked 100 times before. I've read a number of the threads but I still don't feel like I know what I need to get started.

I'm concerned (only) with joinery; mainly sawing tenons and dovetails. Additionally, I'm focused on tenons under 2" long and boards between 3/8" and 3/4" thick. I want to buy 1 saw to learn and practice with. I could probably swing the $70-$80 for a veritas carcass or dovetail saw but that's about the limit to my budget.

X-cut or rip? Carcass or dovetail? Veritas or brand X?

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.Gents saw is pretty much good for cutting parts for dollhouses and that's about it....I bought a Lie Nielson saw and don't regret it a bit. I have the Veritas also, which is sweet, but the Lie Nielson is MUCH nicer IMHO.

[Chris Hachet]

If you're apprehensive about the LV carcase saws, I have a pair (x-cut and rip) that I can possibly loan you to try.

I ended up buying a BadAxe 14" sash and 12" dovetail to replace the pair (and my LV 20TPI dovetail). Not that there's anything *horribly* wrong with the LV saws, but for me the grips are a little less comfortable than the BadAxe saws. My paws are 4" wide and the handles on the LV are *slightly* pinching; the hang angle, to me, is to little, too. I want to reiterate, they are not bad saws at all and cut pretty darned straight. I just didn't want to remake a handle and still have a saw where the hang angle wasn't to my liking.

Though to be bluntly honest, the copper back on my BA dovetail saw makes me feel all warm and fuzzy. :D...and in a rare moment of Cando I have to disagree with a few people here who really prefer the cheaper or vintage tools. Bestt tool purchase I made was a Bad Axe saw. FANTASTIC!

[Don Jarvie]

Forget playing around with the gents saw and get the LV carcass saw. I have a LN saw and the saw cuts great. If you want to cut dovetails and tenons, etc you need a quality saw.

See if you can find the episode of the Woodwrights shop with Chris Schwartz where he discusses saws and sawing. A great show and it will get you on the right track.

[Daniel Rode]

This one? http://video.pbs.org/video/1772025726/

Forget playing around with the gents saw and get the LV carcass saw. I have a LN saw and the saw cuts great. If you want to cut dovetails and tenons, etc you need a quality saw.

See if you can find the episode of the Woodwrights shop with Chris Schwartz where he discusses saws and sawing. A great show and it will get you on the right track.

[Curt Putnam]

Pulling to the right: could be saw, could be you.
Seems bendy: probably you
Seems slow: odds are you trying to force the cut

The combination of pulling, bending and seems slow suggests, to me, that you need some work on technique. I had/have those problems too. If the saw is sharp, lay it on a line with only the weight of the saw as a downforce and then push straight across. A sharp saw will cut. Then keep doing that until you get to 3/4". Not trying for speed but you are trying for a straight push. JMO & YMMV

[Daniel Rode]

Do you have any oil stones? If need be, a flattish rock would actually be able to do the job of stoning the teeth on one side. "Stoning the teeth" is sliding a stone down the tooth line from the tote toward the toe. Do this one time and take a test cut or two. Re-do and re-test as needed. The speed with how fast this works depends on the coarseness of the stone and how bad the set of the saw.


Yes, I think I have a oil stone. It came with something I bought and never got used. I also have a fine/x-fine DMT Duo diamond plate.

Which side do I stone? The side it's pulling to or the other?



Do you have any kind of caliper?


I have a digital micrometer but no calipers.

[Jim Koepke]

Yes, I think I have a oil stone. It came with something I bought and never got used. I also have a fine/x-fine DMT Duo diamond plate.

Which side do I stone? The side it's pulling to or the other?


Stone the side that it is pulling to. It is best to lay the saw plate flat on a bench when doing this, handle hanging off the edge. Do not press hard and give it just one pass with the stone. If you do this with enough saws over time you will get a feel for how much stoning a saw needs. Test and repeat as needed.



I have a digital micrometer but no calipers.


I was wondering how thick is the saw plate?

You could also measure the set. If possible it is helpful to know total set and the set of each side of the tooth line.

These can be tedious measurements to obtain, but they can help one to learn about the art of saws and sawing.

jtk

[Daniel Rode]

I stoned the side of the saw blade, making 2 light passes with a fine diamond stone. Then I cut off my old saw lines, remarked and carefully sawed. I tried to let the saw do the work. I use my thumb on the far edge the register the the saw and keep it from dancing around until it got started. With the handle (tote?) I set the blade about 2" from the far edge and pulled back about 1" to make a small groove. Then I made a push forward to about 1" from the back. I dropped the saw to follow the top line and cut all the way across the top. I then focused on making sure the blade seemed parallel to my layout line and worked my way down to the 3/4" mark. I did a few to the left of the line and a few to the right.

It's nowhere near perfect, but it feels more like the mistakes are mine more than the saw. My mechanics I can fix with practice.

270821

[Matthew Hills]

Another way to get an even set recommended by Mike Wenzloff:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3lKUsWFYbwA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3lKUsWFYbwA)

[Jim Koepke]

It's nowhere near perfect, but it feels more like the mistakes are mine more than the saw. My mechanics I can fix with practice.

Some of the cuts look very good, some seem to drift. Practice will help. Some describe gripping a saw as the same that would be used to hold a bird. Too tight of a grip causes mechanical problems.

A properly tuned saw will guide itself. The user just needs to learn how the hands and eyes work together to set it to the line.

Sometimes it is fun to try and saw the wood left between the kerfs. This gives a lot of practice at being gentle with a saw and starting without wondering.

You end up with a lot of small shims if you ever need them. Can be used as roofs for miniature bird houses.

jtk

[Hilton Ralphs]

One of the best changes that helped me with sawing is positioning my back (right) leg at 90 degrees to the saw. It's a bit like ballerinas standing. This pulls your body open and allows for a cleaner and less obstructed piston stroke when cutting.