Get rid of my high angle planes?

[Malcolm Schweizer]

Good day all,

Now that I own one of each of LN's low-angle planes, and a full set or two of blades in all angles, do I really need the high angle planes any more? I would keep a few favorites, but I am not using the planes. Might as well convert them to cash for something I would use. It seems a sin to get rid of the old trusty Stanleys, but I gave it some thought. I could get a few hundred bucks and buy some other cool hand tools. Will I regret it? Thoughts?

Cheers,

Malcolm

[Hilton Ralphs]

Unless you have 38 and 50 degree blades in the low angle planes, you'll want the other planes for tricky grain.

Your call but perhaps hold onto them for a couple of weeks and then decide. At least you'll only lose $38 (as computed by Schwarz or someone else).

[george wilson]

If you set the chip breakers exceedingly close to the cutting edge of the blades,they will out perform your low angle planes. The way to set them REAL close is: Hold the plane iron vertical against a piece of soft wood. Give it a rather light tap to start the blade into the wood just a few thousandths of an inch. Bring the chip breaker down to the wood and tighten it. Make sure the chip breaker does not creep forward and go past the cutting edge. Make sure there are NO slight gaps at all under the chip breaker at all. Chips WILL get under the chip breaker if there is any gap. File the chip breaker to fit the blade if needed.

The idea is: The chip breaker is set so close to the cutting edge that it will be IN THE CUT. It will sharply bend the chip being cut so that the chip will be bent too much to allow the cut to tear out a hunk of wood. You can even plane curly wood smooth if you do it right.

[Jim Koepke]

My thoughts on this run all over the board.

First, what is sold today may be difficult to regain tomorrow.

Next, do you have a particular purchase in mind? My tendency is to hold on to tools in my bank until there is a reason to convert them in to the coin of the realm. Having money waiting for a purpose tends to sneak off for other things before the purpose fully forms.

Are any of the planes you would let go in different sizes than their replacements? Would any of them be good for repurposed duty like turning a #5 into a scrub plane.

Then there is the thought of keeping a few for the rough work which might not be a desirable use for the nicer planes. Then there is having a few around for loaners, just in case.

jtk

[Adam Petersen]

Thanks for that description George, I'm going to head out and try that on my #3 right now.

[Jim Koepke]

Thanks for that description George, I'm going to head out and try that on my #3 right now.

Give the blade a fresh edge before you start if you want to be really impressed.

One hint, if the shaving comes out looking all crinkled, then the chip breaker might be too close to the edge.

jtk

[Chris Hachet]

I find myself trading off one tool for another....it seems that my preferences run back and forth. A few of the vintage Stanley planes I almost sold have become real workers that I would not want to see gone even if I had a new LN or LV replacement. Besides, how can one man have too many planes?

[Tony Shea]

Give the blade a fresh edge before you start if you want to be really impressed.

One hint, if the shaving comes out looking all crinkled, then the chip breaker might be too close to the edge.

jtk

Interesting Jim. I find once the shaving is coming out crinkled then it means the breaker is at the optimum position. That crinkled shaving is the one downside to this method, I don't end up with the nice flat see through shavings that I can post pictures of with a set of crude calipers measuring .001". I mean what good is a shaving if I can't put it online and brag about how thin it is? But seriously Jim I think the crinkled effect is the net result of this method if I'm not mistaken. I'm not sure you can really get the breaker edge too close if you're goal is to tame tear out. But I don't use this method unless I have to as the surface is just as fuzzy as it would be if I was using a high angle. So I typically start out with a typical 45* angle plane and will go from there. I like to achieve the glass surface if possible.

To answer the OP question. No I guess you don't really NEED them. But I certainly wouldn't be without a few. If nothing else using the close chipbreaker method to tame tearout is just as easy if not easier than switching out for high angle blades. And also as Jim pointed out, I would keep a couple around for the rough work and move to the nice planes for final truing and smoothing. I have a partial set of Stanley's (#3, #4, two #5's, and a #7) that get just as much or more use than my LN set (#2, #4, #5, and #7) or LV LAJ. I find my stanley's indispensable for getting the rough work done. But they can't flatten a board to the tolerance of my LN's & LV.

[Malcolm Schweizer]

All very good responses and I am very grateful.

I do believe you convinced me to hang on to them, even though I am very very tight on space. The first low angle I bought was a low angle jack. I got one of each blade, which I believe are 25, 38, 50, and toothed blade, plus an extra 25 because duh to me- didn't realize it came loaded with one! My intent- play around with it, and see how I like it, but the primary justification for buying it was to have a shooting plane with a low angle and long bed. I fell in love. I was blown away by the way it performed. I really expected more chatter with the low angle. Not so. So I got the jointer. Again- total love, especially the fence. It came with a few extra blades. Then I got a smoother, and now I pretty much have two full sets of blades, plus a few extra 25 and 38 degree blades. The shooter just came in the mail (according to scans) but I am travelling and have not been to the Post Office. I got the PMV11 blade just to try it. I can't wait.

It would kill me to get rid of the good ol' Stanleys. The 6c being my first "real" plane, I would keep it. It's just that I live in the tropics and have to constantly fight rust. I find myself getting them out about every 2 months or so to knock off rust, rewax (carnauba), oil, tune up.... and I am not even using them! Just fighting rust. Note: The new plane socks seem to have helped that. My reason for the question was I started to think maybe it's best they get loved and used than to sit there. I could use the space and the money. But certainly I can grab them for rough work, and I LOVE the idea of making a scrub plane. Every time I go to buy a scrub plane I back out at the last minute. Making a scrub plane out of an old cheap Buck that I have would be great.

Thanks again! I am glad I asked. The chip breaker and scrub plane ideas were good suggestions.

[David Weaver]

I'd agree with jim, hang on to it until you've made your mind up. What you like may depend on what you're doing and what you use. I've gone around in circles and come back to vintage planes, and at this point, I think I could dump all of my other planes except one square premium plane for jointing and shooting (and I could really ditch that if I had any vintage planes that were square).

It only took about 7 years for me to go in circles and then land back on the less than fabulous. I sold off every high angle frog and every low angle bevel up plane that I had, and genuinely like the stock planes better (maybe even the decent stock irons). You never know where your preferences will go, it's always easy to be enamored with a new premium plane of one design or another.

[Jim Matthews]

I dunno about holding onto stuff...

I've seen pictures of Malcom's shop/dining room/kitchen.
I do 80% of my planing with the same #4 - there's only so much room for speciality planes in any shop.

I say pass them onto someone who is just starting out, and take the cash in exchange.

[Jim Neeley]

Although I've become a BD convert, I do have several BU planes that occasionally come in handy.

When people talk about buying / getting blades in all three angles, IMO, they're making a lot of extra work for themselves. I recommend hollow-grinding all of the blades to 25*.

Then, if you want a steep angled blade, cut a very small microbevel at 38* or 50*. You don't have to remove hardly any matal to get there; less than a minute on a 1000g Shapton or the equivalent. All you need is a tiny amount of the end reground to 50* to get you that 50*.

Since I do have multiple blades I grind the primary on all to 25* with secondarys spread out depending upon my use. With tiny secondary bevels I can regrind the 25* primary quickly without removing much material although I suppose you could also just grind at 25* enough to shrink the secondary bevel down when it becomes too large for quick resharpening.


Once I learned what sharp *really* was though, I found BU planes mostly unnecessary as a 45* frog with an uber-sharp blade (30-60 seconds worth of sharpening, by hand, once someone shows you how) and a shallow cut, even gnarly maple has been coming out tear-free.

I have kept the BUs, however, should that ever fail me. I'll also occasionally use a low-angle BU on my shooting board, although that's become infrequent as well.

Just my $0.02.. YMMV.

Jim

[Jim Koepke]

I recommend hollow-grinding all of the blades to 25*.

This makes great sense until one considers the main drawback.

What percentage of the folks here actually have grinders?

Maybe a poll is in order...

Hmmmmmm...

jtk

[Jim Neeley]

That's a good question, Jim. I know that once I first used mine I never again wasted my time powered up my WS3000, and I'll admit that surprised me.

Jim in Alaska
AKA the guy who has tried almost every sharpening system known to man.

[Malcolm Schweizer]

I dunno about holding onto stuff...

I've seen pictures of Malcom's shop/dining room/kitchen.
I do 80% of my planing with the same #4 - there's only so much room for speciality planes in any shop.

I say pass them onto someone who is just starting out, and take the cash in exchange.

ahhh yes, I forgot I had posted that: http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=uKdJkejiYP0

Thanks for remembering me. All the red and black tool bags are now on a freestanding shelf and the shelves over the work table are filled with things less used. It was too much trouble getting to the tool bags where they are. The short shelves next to the work table are now a taller shelf. The black toolbox on that shelf houses the waterstones, diamond stones, and other sharpening tools. It now rests on the work table. There is a Formica board I put on the table when sharpening.

As for the question about hollow grinding, I have some hollow ground but I have a tendency to destroy things on the grinder, so I just use a flat grind and micro bevel on most blades. I have Norton water stones, Diasharp diamond stones (insane eBay score in all grits from xcoarse to xxfine and a lapping plate), Workshop 2000 (WHY did I not get the 3000? D'oh!), grinder (rarely used- mostly for polishing knives w/buffing wheel and sharpening machetes), Veritas and Pinnacle honing jigs (don't buy the Pinnacle- save your money), strops, lapping plate/diamond paste, etc. I soon plan to get a really good water stone or two- Shapton or similar quality 12,000 grit and maybe a 4,000. The Nortons are good but slow cutting and soft. They have served me well. Sharpening is a hobby for me. My name is Malcolm Schweizer, and I am a sharpaholic.

By the way, if we ever get the land we want, here is my dream workshop (WARNING: Not for the faint of heart).

http://www.davisframe.com/timber-frame-post-beam-pictures-photos/Custom-Design-Galleries/Japanese-Tea-House-Timber-Frame-Gallery.aspx

The plan would be build three- One for living/dining/kitchen, one for bedrooms (covered porch connecting), and one for workshop. I am in the tropics so this works fine to go outside to get to the bedrooms, and the modular plan works well for hurricanes- small sturdy boxes, low roofs. It also, when well-arranged, allows me to maximize airflow because A/C is too expensive and not really needed due to the tradewinds. Single stories and multiple roofs catch more water. We don't have public water. The lot is on a cliff. The smaller buildings are a bath house and meditation/observation room- the first to be cut when $$$$ reality hits. This is all pipe-dream material for now.

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Malcom

What are the "high angle planes" you have? They are an unknown quality at this stage.

Since there are few high angle planes on the market (other than HNT Gordon), I suspect that you may be referring to "higher" bed planes, such as Stanley. These have a common cutting angle (45 degree bed). By comparison, the LNs you have (they are LN and not LV - you mentioned PM-V11 steel) have a 12 degree bed, which is a low angle ..... until you add a blade with a 50 degree bevel, and then it cuts at 62 degrees, which is a high angle plane.

Most of my planes are set for high cutting angles to suit the wood in Western Australia. These include both BU and BD planes. I get as much pleasure and performance from high angle woodies, such as the HNT Gordon range, as I do from LV planes with high bevels. I also have a couple of LN BD smoothers, with 55 degree frogs.

How does a high angle (either BU or BD) differ from a Bailey common angle plane using the chip breaker? In part it is one of preference, and in part it is one of performance. For me it is simply easier to grab a plane set for a high cutting angle, which gives me assured, predictable performance than fiddle with the chip breaker. I do go down the chip breaker path at time, and so I know my way around it, but it is still my preference to go the high angle route. Your mileage may vary.

Several years ago I argued for BU plane blades to be ground at 25 degrees. I wrote an article (http://www.inthewoodshop.com/WoodworkTechniques/TheSecretToCamberinBUPlaneBlades.html). The main driver is to be able to camber the bevel edge, which is much harder to do with a high angle primary bevel (especially one of 50 degrees). It is far easier to add a 50 degree micro secondary bevel to a 25 degree primary bevel. All this does not matter if you do not plan to camber the edge.

One of the reasons I continue to own and use BU and BD planes in high angle format is that the BU really do work best (less effort to push, more control) but that the BD are easier to sharpen (if -and only if - you freehand sharpen as I do). BU planes are best set up with a honing guide to create a predictable, repeatable micro secondary bevel. With a BD plane one can simply freehand hone a hollowed primary bevel, and this does not even need to be repeatable (better that it is) as the cutting angle comes from the bed angle, not the combined bed-plus-bevel, as in the BU plane.

So, what types of planes are your "high angle" types?

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Malcolm Schweizer]

Hello Derek,

My misnomer. I meant bevel down: Stanley 3, 4, 4c, 5c, 6c, 7c. I use a lot of imported flamed maple and local mahogany so in the low angle planes I often use the 50 deg blade and now also the toothed blade.

[Hilton Ralphs]

When people talk about buying / getting blades in all three angles, IMO, they're making a lot of extra work for themselves.
Not sure how much work is required to whip out the one blade and insert the other.


I recommend hollow-grinding all of the blades to 25*.

Then, if you want a steep angled blade, cut a very small microbevel at 38* or 50*.

I use a Veritas honing guide so if my blade has a 38 degree bevel, I set the honing guide with the relevant angle and polish the bevel, then quick as a wink, I turn the knob on the side and give it another few swipes and sure as nuts, a micro-bevel is formed. Not really hard work at all.

Given that a micro-bevel is described as such, I would hate to have to get out my microscope to work out which micro-bevel is on what blade.


Funny how both approaches seems like worlds apart yet achieve the same result.

[Malcolm Schweizer]

I have to agree with Hilton. A bevel up has no chip breaker, so blade swaps are easy. Three blades equals three separate bevel down planes. I think it is easier to have a separate 25, 38, and 50 degree blade. Grab the one you need and go.

But not knocking bevel down planes. They work well and have done so for many many years. If someone asks me, however, "What plane do you recommend for a guy with limited funds but in need of a good quality plane?," I say get a bevel up smoother, jack, and jointer, three blades, and have the equivalent of 9 different planes. Add a scraper blade and make it 11 (I am leaving the jointer out on the scraper blade- don't see the need for a scraping jointer). By the way, I have a scraper (90 degree) blade but have yet to try it. Add a toothed blade- you get the idea- all with three plane bodies. It's hard to beat.

Anyway, I am probably keeping the bevel down planes or at least most of them.

[Jim Koepke]

That's a good question, Jim. I know that once I first used mine I never again wasted my time powered up my WS3000, and I'll admit that surprised me.

Jim in Alaska
AKA the guy who has tried almost every sharpening system known to man.

There is a lot to be said for a hollow grind.

My system was purchased after FWW ran an evaluation of the different systems available at the time. There are a few places where it isn't the best, but overall I like it.

BTW, you likely already know I did start a poll to see if a number can be placed on how many folks have grinders for blade work.

jtk

[Malcolm Schweizer]

If I had the funds for a Tormek, I might consider it, but it's hard to justify at the moment. Besides, a micro bevel is easy to do on a flat grind, and you only have to hone the main bevel every now and then.

[don wilwol]

I dunno about holding onto stuff...
there's only so much room for speciality planes in any shop.


Then its time to move them to the house. 270774

[Hilton Ralphs]

I dunno about holding onto stuff...
there's only so much room for speciality planes in any shop.




Then its time to move them to the house.

Or get the wife to sell some of her shoes.

[don wilwol]

Or get the wife to sell some of her shoes.

One of my biggest joys in life is my wife is one of my biggest enablers!

[bridger berdel]

today I spent the day planing up walnut panels. they were glued up from multiple boards, from 3 to 5 boards wide. these were for desk tops. my glue ups were pretty good to start with, but I had 1/16" or so to remove on all of them. on one of them I had to start with a #5 with a pretty pronounced crown to the blade, but the rest I was able to start with the #8 set up like a smoother- the cutter almost straight and chipbreaker set 1/64th or less. is this the basic idea of a panel plane, like the old style infill long planes? jointer to fore length and cutter set up like a smoother? sure worked nice on those glueups. grain every which way, hard spots, some spots with curly grain- no tearout traversing diagonally to flatten:
270877

from there the #4, again set up as a smoother, but parallel to the grain. really beautiful wood.
270878
and the cutters stay sharp longer than a single iron plane.






If you set the chip breakers exceedingly close to the cutting edge of the blades,they will out perform your low angle planes. The way to set them REAL close is: Hold the plane iron vertical against a piece of soft wood. Give it a rather light tap to start the blade into the wood just a few thousandths of an inch. Bring the chip breaker down to the wood and tighten it. Make sure the chip breaker does not creep forward and go past the cutting edge. Make sure there are NO slight gaps at all under the chip breaker at all. Chips WILL get under the chip breaker if there is any gap. File the chip breaker to fit the blade if needed.

The idea is: The chip breaker is set so close to the cutting edge that it will be IN THE CUT. It will sharply bend the chip being cut so that the chip will be bent too much to allow the cut to tear out a hunk of wood. You can even plane curly wood smooth if you do it right.

[Derek Cohen]

Nice work Bridger, but ...

and the cutters stay sharp longer than a single iron plane.

On what do you base this statement?

Regards from Perth

Derek

[David Weaver]

I don't think they stay sharp longer, but they work better when they're dull than an iron on a single iron plane. You can use a double iron plane all the way up to when it stops cutting with nothing untoward happening.

[Stanley Covington]

If you set the chip breakers exceedingly close to the cutting edge of the blades,they will out perform your low angle planes. The way to set them REAL close is: Hold the plane iron vertical against a piece of soft wood. Give it a rather light tap to start the blade into the wood just a few thousandths of an inch. Bring the chip breaker down to the wood and tighten it. Make sure the chip breaker does not creep forward and go past the cutting edge. Make sure there are NO slight gaps at all under the chip breaker at all. Chips WILL get under the chip breaker if there is any gap. File the chip breaker to fit the blade if needed.

The idea is: The chip breaker is set so close to the cutting edge that it will be IN THE CUT. It will sharply bend the chip being cut so that the chip will be bent too much to allow the cut to tear out a hunk of wood. You can even plane curly wood smooth if you do it right.

Totally agree.

Very slick and easy way of setting the chip breaker, George! Thanks for sharing.:)

Stan

[Steve Voigt]

Nice work Bridger, but ...

and the cutters stay sharp longer than a single iron plane.

On what do you base this statement?

Regards from Perth

Derek

Derek, didn't you know? Chipbreakers contain special StaySharp (TM) molecules that magically migrate to the cutting edge…but only when the chipbreaker is set vewy, vewy close.

[Jim R Edwards]

I got rid of most of my bevel down planes and haven't looked back. The ones I did keep have sentimental value and, out of those only the LN 4 1/2 see's any use. Not because it's better, it's just a great plane that I have always enjoyed using. My bevel up planes are used 95% of the time.

[David Weaver]

Derek, didn't you know? Chipbreakers contain special StaySharp (TM) molecules that magically migrate to the cutting edge…but only when the chipbreaker is set vewy, vewy close.

I don't know if they have those molecules, but they do have money saving molecules built in!

[Kees Heiden]

If it is for real, in daily practice, I don't know. But the Japanese professors had an article about the self sharpening effect when using a chipbreaker. Because of the pressure on the shaving, these shavings create a hollow between edge and chipbreaker edge. This hollow is kind of like a stropping effect, and they could plane for longer with the chipbreaker set close to the edge.

But like I said, in daily practice everything is different from the lab, and you probably won't feel the difference.

[Steve Voigt]

I don't know if they have those molecules, but they do have money saving molecules built in!
Now, that's a good point.


If it is for real, in daily practice, I don't know. But the Japanese professors had an article about the self sharpening effect when using a chipbreaker. Because of the pressure on the shaving, these shavings create a hollow between edge and chipbreaker edge. This hollow is kind of like a stropping effect, and they could plane for longer with the chipbreaker set close to the edge.

Kees, if that's true, wouldn't it be equivalent to stropping on the wrong side of the blade, and wouldn't that make flattening the back more difficult?

[Kees Heiden]

Yes, in theory. But they were planing for miles and miles. In the workshop, you sharpen long before that and won't see a difference probably. The wear bevel on the flat side of the blade is a real thing though, and needs to be adressed at evry honing event, be it a single or a double iron plane. You can often see this wear bevel as a light line just behind the edge.