Drum vs Wide Belt Sanders

[Glenn Samuels]

I am interested in adding a sanding machine to my shop and would like to know the pro's and con's of both the drum sander and the wide belt sander. From what I have been able to read, a drum sander has the option of coming with 2 heads so different grits can be run. Is this correct? Can 1 drum be used by itself for rough sanding and them use both for the final sanding? It also looks like wide belt sanders can cost quite a bit more. Correct???

[Jeff Duncan]

In short the wide belt wins in every way except cost, there's really no competition. A drum sander is a nice tool that'll get you buy for hobby work, or even as a small shop until you can afford a wide belt. But trying to compare a drum to a widebelt is not fair to the drum.

As far as running grits on a drum, the usual technique is to put successive grits, like for instance.....100/120, 150/180 or whatever you need for your work.

good luck,
JeffD

[Stephen Cherry]

The only thing that I could suggest that a drum sander would be better for is progressively sanding thick veneer to a desired thickness. For example, if you would want a veneer sheet .080, and you were willing to run it through as many times as it would take while pressing it down hard into the table at the beginning and end of each pass. I like the hard conveyor belt and hard drum for this- not much give at all.

For smoothing things out, I have the one of the worse wide belts ever made, (a "sandstar 757"), and a it's lot better than the drum sander that I had (when I can keep it running right). Also, it's pretty quick to change the belt.

Mine looks like this one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sqqaop23Ih0

[Bruce Page]

Another consideration might also be available power. My garage shop can handle the 5hp requirements of my Woodmaster DS but I would not have enough juice to run the same width capacity wide belt.

All things being equal, I'd take a wide belt over a DS any day.

[Jim Andrew]

After considerable reading about drum sanders, i skipped the drum sander and went with the Grizzly G9983 small wide belt. Have to say it is a very nice machine, and being open end, you can sand wide panels. I had experience with a speedsander 37" and knew what a real wide belt sander could do. The small Grizzly is not going to sand at the capacity of the speedsander, but does very well for a 5 hp machine.

[Mort Stevens]

A few years ago I wanted to add a sander to my shop and looked at the drum sanders available and really wasn't impressed with the quality - the open end design that everybody uses just seems to me like it's going to be a source of scalloped and uneven sanding, plus everyone I talked to said changing the sanding paper was a real pain. So, I bought a 25" wide belt sander (the smallest they make) sight unseen because no one in the area carries them. When it arrived I didn't realize how huge it was! This thing runs off a 7.5hp motor and requires a compressed air connection. Unfortunately, all the wide belt sanders I've seen are really made for commercial production environments not the home shop like mine... it would be really nice if someone like Delta or Powermatic would make a wide belt sander for hobbyist - something along the lines of a 25"x48" belt and run it off 120v with 1.5hp would be more than sufficient - what I have now is overkill for my needs, but there's really no alternative.

[Dave Cav]

I had a Woodmaster 24" for a couple of years. As drum sanders go, Woodmaster is supposed to be a pretty good sander. I grew to hate it. Changing grits, even with the Velcro (which I had to replace) was a pain, and I was never happy with the surface quality of the finish. In addition, on virtually every project I did, at least one piece of stock would get messed up. This year I replaced it with a 37" Safety Speed Cut and I'm very happy with the new machine despite the steep cost. As the others have said, there is absolutely NO comparison between a drum sander and a widebelt. I got the Safety Speed because I was fortunate enough to be able to afford it, but if necessary I would have bought a 24" or even one of the small open side models and been happy with them. I did a lot of research, and couldn't find anyone that was unhappy with their widebelt regardless of the make or model. If you can afford one, go for it.

[Rick Fisher]

First sander was a General double drum .. Sold it and installed a 25" Wide belt.

Its not a fair comparison. Drum sanders are awesome for hobby work. They are meant for light duty, patient work. They leave the surface flat and sanded but are slow and fussy about how you treat them..

A wide belt is an amazing machine.. way more capable and way faster, does a better job with oscillation and a platen.. Way more power..

The downside to a wide belt is big electricity requirements.. Phase conversion is common .. Compressed air is needed and you need capable dust collection..

Its a commitment.

[glenn bradley]

If you have the funds, power and space I would go with a belt. I am limited on space and so went with a medium sized Supermax Tools drum machine. One thing I will say for the 19-38 model is that they must have made some drastic improvements in the approach to abrasives changing. I can swap grits in around 5 minutes without rushing the process. I am not inclined to skip grits or fail to change grits when appropriate since it is so easy. Dust collection is great even with my 2HP cyclone located clear across the shop. Despite concerns about the single sided design in general, the machine is massively scaled for its capacity and performs flawlessly.

[Glenn Samuels]

Thank you all for your advice steering me to a wide belt sander. One question about the open sided wide belt sander. Is there any problem getting a uniform surface when sending the board through twice to get both sides of the face sanded?

[Dave Zellers]

I upgraded to the shop fox 20" with a motorized elevation after my back couldn't take the bending over anymore. Touch of a button takes it up .005". I feel it's the ultimate homeowner machine.
Are you referring to this? http://www.amazon.com/W1709-20-Inch-Wide-belt-Digital-Readout/dp/B001R23SYU

Man, now I know I'm getting old when a 6 thousand dollar machine is called a homeowner machine. :eek:

[Dave Zellers]

Yeah.
It was $5500 two years ago.
:) Well then. That's different! :cool:

[Mark Bolton]

Man, now I know I'm getting old when a 6 thousand dollar machine is called a homeowner machine. :eek:

+1

and were in a recession lol

[Stephen Cherry]

Are you referring to this? http://www.amazon.com/W1709-20-Inch-Wide-belt-Digital-Readout/dp/B001R23SYU

Man, now I know I'm getting old when a 6 thousand dollar machine is called a homeowner machine. :eek:

Dave- I checked that site, and they only have one in stock, so you better act fast! (just joking)

One thing though- I was looking at cabinets on a fairly upscale custom cabinet site, and they mention that their cabinets can be had in the 30,000 to 40,000 dollar range. So if you use the sander to build just one set of nice kitchen cabinets, maybe it's worth it. Not to mention the pride and accomplishment of doing it yourself.

[Albert Lee]

I think for hobbyist work and if you dont use the sander as a planer, you should be ok with the drum sander.

I have a small one man workshop geared up for light production work, I am still trying to justify buying a single belt 25" x 75" sander with platen, because its not just the sander, it also meant that I need to upgrade my electrical from single phase to 3 phase(phase converter not enough), upgrade of my current dust extraction system, proper ducting and redesign of the workshop layout...

I ordered a open end wide belt sander but it doesnt have a platen so I changed my mind and not getting it.

[Glenn Samuels]

Good information gentlemen but can someone tell me what a platen is and what it"s used for?

[J.R. Rutter]

The platen, aka pressure bar, is a flat strip that runs the with of the sanding belt. When engaged, it presses against the back side of the belt and holds the abrasive against the surface of the wood passing beneath. By spreading the contact area from a thin line to a wider patch, the wood surface ends up with a shallower scratch pattern. This is because sawdust builds up a fine layer before it exits. With a fine grit, the surface ends up almost polished.

Wide belt sanders can be set up so that you use either the drum, the platen, or both as contact areas. Drum only cuts through irregularities better with a small, focused contact line, platen only is for finishing an already smooth surface, and running both can sometimes be enough of each for a workable compromise. This is also why multi-head sanders work so well. The first drum is made from a harder material to cut through irregular surfaces more easily and is used with a coarser grit abrasive. The second head (and potentially third and fourth heads) has a softer durometer drum and the option to use the platen.

I am fortunate enough to justify a 2-head sander with a steel first drum, rubber second drum, and 2" wide platen. With the flip of a switch, I can engage any or all of these via pneumatic cylinders. The platen on my machine is also on a timing circuit triggered by the first hold-down roller so that it comes down onto the wood as the leading edge is midway past it and raises as the trailing edge is midway past. This avoids any slight rounding over of the edges. The sander also has a relatively firm, waffle patten feed belt, so that the workpiece thickness is very consistent and edge sanding is simple and consistent.

[Glenn Samuels]

J.R. Thanks so much for this superb explanation! I am guessing that this type of a sander would be considered an industrial sander vs. a hobbyist unit? Can you tell me the name and model of the unit that you are using? What type of dust collection system would be needed for this type of sander? Would a cyclone with a cartridge filter be sufficient or would someone need to go to an industrial baghouse filter if re-introducing the air back into the shop?

[J.R. Rutter]

J.R. Thanks so much for this superb explanation! I am guessing that this type of a sander would be considered an industrial sander vs. a hobbyist unit? Can you tell me the name and model of the unit that you are using? What type of dust collection system would be needed for this type of sander? Would a cyclone with a cartridge filter be sufficient or would someone need to go to an industrial baghouse filter if re-introducing the air back into the shop?

Industrial machine, yes. But in America, anything is possible. :-)

Mine is actually a lighter duty industrial unit made for light calibrating (creating uniform thickness) and finish sanding. We use it for cabinet doors. so it does minor leveling of glued joints and leaves a surface where only minimal cross-grain sanding is required before finishing. It is an SCMI / Sandya 5 RCS. The sander also has an air jet system to blow off the fine grit belt on the second head for longer life. This increases the dust collection requirement.

I have a dedicated 7.5 HP Dantherm dust collector - the type that has 24 Beane fabric tubes above a metal base that has 3 plastic bags underneath to hold the fine dust. Cartridge type filters with a cyclone can work well if you have enough velocity to spin the fines out. I had several expensive cartridges blow up on me earlier in my career (after caking with fines left in the airstream by a non-optimal cyclone) so I tend to live with the compromise of having to shake the bags. You want as much airflow as possible with a sander for best performance and longevity.

If you can justify a wide belt, the Italian machines are well suited to careful use like a cabinet or furniture shop. I wouldn't want employees to be sanding a lot of heavy timbers or 2" thick countertops with it on a daily basis, but it will handle these things if used with care.

[Jim Andrew]

My G9983 Grizzly has a platen, and the overlap from turning the board around is hardly noticeable. I run my panels through with 60 grit, then when they are smooth switch to 120 grit. Still have to hit them with the ROS before they are finished, but that doesn't take long. My cyclone is 2 hp, but it would not hurt to have a bigger dust collector.If you are making a lot of panels, this sander is very good. Small footprint, not so heavy but what you can put a mobile base under it, belts are not so expensive that they are prohibitive, what else can I say.

[Ira Matheny]

I have a drum sander and a wide belt sander. I also have 3 phase power. The 25 hp/37" wide belt sander wins, hands down, over the 25" single phase 220 powerdrum sander.
I now had a 25" Performax drum sander for sale in Central California. It works fine, just is not what I need in my semi-custom shop. I used it for about 5 years in my upgraded 'Hobby Shop', and was very satisfied with it, before I upgrades to a production unit.

[Mike Cutler]

Glenn

I think everyone answered the question about which is better, but the second part of your question I didn't see answered.
Yes you could use just one drum for coarse sanding, but you would be constantly realigning the rear drum to the feed table.The rear drum sits closer to the table.
If you were really just looking for a coarse sanding setup, just put the same grit on both drums. You'd have to be on your guard for paper burn though.

[Glenn Samuels]

These posts have been very informative and I want to thank everyone for their time and experiences.

[Carl Beckett]

I owned a 16" Performax for a few years. Made some great furniture with it and found it to be a huge improvement over a belt sander and hand planes for working larger panels/tabletops. Especially figured wood. And I pretty much ran everything through it for final dimensioning/sizing.

Then upgraded to a 24" dual drum from Grizzly. This solved the problem of the deflection of the overhung arm design (which was finicky to keep a uniform surface on larger widths). The dual drum increased the speed some. But it takes up a lot of space.

Then found an old Reliant 13" 'wide' belt sander on CL ($500). Overhung arm design so the work can be flipped - effectively 26" working width. And if not needing it, there is a clamp that braces the overhung end rigid to the frame. So in a way the best of both worlds. And 2hp (I think), so the power requirements are not severe and this thing sands like crazy. Again I run pretty much everything through it for final/uniform dimensioning.

Finally I got a 24" wide belt off CL ($1000). Requires lots of power and a phase converter and shop air. Its much much faster, but not necessarily more precise (in fact for really precision flatness like veneers - as stated previous - I think the drum sander would win out. But its hard to find a decent used wide belt under $2k, and new you are in the $3500 range for one of the small overhung styles.

Personally I like the overhung design if a more substantial machine (like a wide belt). Less floor space, smaller power requirements.

[ed malcom]

The only thing that I could suggest that a drum sander would be better for is progressively sanding thick veneer to a desired thickness. For example, if you would want a veneer sheet .080, and you were willing to run it through as many times as it would take while pressing it down hard into the table at the beginning and end of each pass. I like the hard conveyor belt and hard drum for this- not much give at all.

For smoothing things out, I have the one of the worse wide belts ever made, (a "sandstar 757"), and a it's lot better than the drum sander that I had (when I can keep it running right). Also, it's pretty quick to change the belt.

Mine looks like this one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sqqaop23Ih0

i just got this one for 100.00 the previous owner had lots of cash but was strange. He was having problems with the electric eyes and all the wiring is disconected from them. It looks like he tried to cobble new brackets. He died suddenly about five years ago and it has set in an open shop and the mud daubers have had a field day building houses.. Im building 50 replacement windows for our 1888 courthouse for free labor. His widow offered it to me along with five new sanding belts and one new aluminum roller and four new rubber coated ones. also the original operations manual. Basically i need some help figuring out how to wire the eyes back up.

[Loren Woirhaye]

A wide belt without a platten will leave marks just like a drum sander.

Consider a stroke sander. You can sand veneered panels with them, which is iffy on all but a very high end wide belt.

[Ira Matheny]

I have all three sanders. Lobe 37" wide belt, Performax 25" drum and a 30' x 8" stroke sander. Love the 37" belt for most work. Just love it. It had a small learning curve, but it is great.
Occasionally use the stroke sander on oversized and irregular size pieces. It is just great for that type of work, but does produce a lot of fugitive dust.

But the Performax 25" single drum sander is for sale. Cheap, including a lot of production paper. Cheap.

Guess which one I like!
Ira in Central Calif.

[J.R. Rutter]

A wide belt without a platten will leave marks just like a drum sander.


Highly dependent on the abrasive. A good paper belt on a decent sander won't leave any marks other than scratches.

[Chris Noponen]

The platen, aka pressure bar, is a flat strip that runs the with of the sanding belt. When engaged, it presses against the back side of the belt and holds the abrasive against the surface of the wood passing beneath. By spreading the contact area from a thin line to a wider patch, the wood surface ends up with a shallower scratch pattern. This is because sawdust builds up a fine layer before it exits. With a fine grit, the surface ends up almost polished.

One thing to remember about a platen and how it corresponds to your finish is they type of backing it has and what type of graphite you are using. Most wide belt sanders that have platens that have a standard 26# felt attached. You can achieve different results by changing your felt from a 26# to 16# which is softer. The down side to that is if you apply to much sanding pressure to your platen, you will round your edges, and in the case of oak, get "grain relief". When my customers use cloth belts, I prefer to see them us a "granular" type of graphite. It holds up better to the cloth backing. IMO the "flake" style graphite is more for paper belts.
One other thing I would recommend is removing the platen bar if you don't plan on using it. No matter how high you raise it, it will still have some contact with your abrasive belt. The edge of the abrasive belt will eventually wear into the graphite and soon cut into the felt and begin tearing your belts. When I go to service machines that have platens, I cant tell you how many times my customers have forgot about the platen being in the machine. When I go to try an pull it out of the machine, it is so packed with dust, that when I do finally get it out of the machine, the felt and graphite are beyond use. With some of the smaller shops I go into, I think its more of a hassle for some of the operator to adjust the platen into the cut vs hand sanding the material with a DA. But then again it may just be plain laziness ;)

[Justin Ludwig]

If you have the funds, power and space I would go with a belt. I am limited on space and so went with a medium sized Supermax Tools drum machine. One thing I will say for the 19-38 model is that they must have made some drastic improvements in the approach to abrasives changing. I can swap grits in around 5 minutes without rushing the process. I am not inclined to skip grits or fail to change grits when appropriate since it is so easy. Dust collection is great even with my 2HP cyclone located clear across the shop. Despite concerns about the single sided design in general, the machine is massively scaled for its capacity and performs flawlessly.

+1

I probably should have forked over the extra $$ and bought a wide belt, but it involved a lot more than just the unit itself. So far, I'm very happy with my 19-38, but that's coming from a guy who used to sand everything with a ROS and who has never operated a wide belt.

[Chris Noponen]

One thing to remember about a platen and how it corresponds to your finish is they type of backing it has and what type of graphite you are using. Most wide belt sanders that have platens that have a standard 26# felt attached. You can achieve different results by changing your felt from a 26# to 16# which is softer. The down side to that is if you apply to much sanding pressure to your platen, you will round your edges, and in the case of oak, get "grain relief". When my customers use cloth belts, I prefer to see them us a "granular" type of graphite. It holds up better to the cloth backing. IMO the "flake" style graphite is more for paper belts.
One other thing I would recommend is removing the platen bar if you don't plan on using it. No matter how high you raise it, it will still have some contact with your abrasive belt. The edge of the abrasive belt will eventually wear into the graphite and soon cut into the felt and begin tearing your belts. When I go to service machines that have platens, I cant tell you how many times my customers have forgot about the platen being in the machine. When I go to try an pull it out of the machine, it is so packed with dust, that when I do finally get it out of the machine, the felt and graphite are beyond use. With some of the smaller shops I go into, I think its more of a hassle for some of the operator to adjust the platen into the cut vs hand sanding the material with a DA. But then again it may just be plain laziness ;)

[Rick Fisher]

Dust collection.. Its a major issue with sanders..

I have a Felder RL-160 with a Hepa Filter collecting dust from my Wide Belt. It sounds like a good combo but its actually not that great.

The super fine dust from sanding clogs the filter system something fierce. I actually created my own pneumatic cleaning system for it which helps, but its not perfect.

Sanders are awesome and require dust collection but its not like collection planer or jointer chips. The dust is a real pain and challenges my dust collector.. I am sure it would wreak havoc on a bag sander.

[Jeff Duncan]

Dust collection.. Its a major issue with sanders..

I have a Felder RL-160 with a Hepa Filter collecting dust from my Wide Belt. It sounds like a good combo but its actually not that great.

The super fine dust from sanding clogs the filter system something fierce. I actually created my own pneumatic cleaning system for it which helps, but its not perfect.

Sanders are awesome and require dust collection but its not like collection planer or jointer chips. The dust is a real pain and challenges my dust collector.. I am sure it would wreak havoc on a bag sander.


Not sure how the Felders work, but the best bet for a widebelt is a cyclone. A good cyclone will separate most of the dust before it ever hits the filters.

JeffD