gfci in bathroom?

[Wade Lippman]

My bathroom has three outlets. The two next to the sinks have to be gfci, but how about the one in the wall? It is 4' from the nearest water.

I bought the led nightlight-outlet someone recommended in another thread here and just thought of gfci...

[David G Baker]

I install them when ever I change out a plug or add them at the head of the circuit. They are more expensive but I like the little extra safety they provide. As I re-wire I also add the circuit breakers too in areas that it makes sense to have them.

[Matt Marsh]

They all need to be GFCI protected in the bathroom.

210.8 Ground-Fault Circuit-Interrupter Protection for Personnel. Ground-fault circuit-interruption for personnel shall be provided as required in 210.8(A) through (C). The ground-fault circuit-interrupter shall be installed in a readily accessible location.
Informational Note:  See 215.9 for ground-fault circuit-interrupter protection for personnel on feeders.
(A) Dwelling Units. All 125-volt, single-phase, 15- and 20-ampere receptacles installed in the locations specified in 210.8(A)(1) through (8) shall have ground-fault circuit-interrupter protection for personnel.
(1) 
Bathrooms
(2) 
Garages, and also accessory buildings that have a floor located at or below grade level not intended as habitable rooms and limited to storage areas, work areas, and areas of similar use
(3) 
Outdoors
Exception to (3): Receptacles that are not readily accessible and are supplied by a branch circuit dedicated to electric snow-melting, deicing, or pipeline and vessel heating equipment shall be permitted to be installed in accordance with 426.28 or 427.22, as applicable.
(4) 
Crawl spaces — at or below grade level
(5) 
Unfinished basements — for purposes of this section, unfinished basements are defined as portions or areas of the basement not intended as habitable rooms and limited to storage areas, work areas, and the like
Exception to (5): A receptacle supplying only a permanently installed fire alarm or burglar alarm system shall not be required to have ground-fault circuit-interrupter protection.
Informational Note:  See 760.41(B) and 760.121(B) for power supply requirements for fire alarm systems.
 Receptacles installed under the exception to 210.8(A)(5) shall not be considered as meeting the requirements of 210.52(G).
(6) 
Kitchens— where the receptacles are installed to serve the countertop surfaces
(7) 
Sinks — located in areas other than kitchens where receptacles are installed within 1.8 m (6 ft) of the outside edge of the sink
(8) 
Boathouses

[Matt Marsh]

Another thing to add here is that, like it or not, for dwelling type units, if it's not required by the NEC to be GFCI protected, it is probably required to be AFCI protected, with very few if any exceptions.

[Wade Lippman]

Got it, required by code. Thanks.

I have a spare AFCI breaker, but that won't quite cut it despite tripping at 50ma ground fault.

[Brian Elfert]

Got it, required by code. Thanks.

I have a spare AFCI breaker, but that won't quite cut it despite tripping at 50ma ground fault.

Are you sure this outlet isn't fed by one of the GFI outlets so it already has GFI protection? It is typical in a bathroom to have just one GFI that protects all outlets in the bathroom.

In older homes when GFIs were first required in bathrooms in the late 70s one GFI receptacle was often used to protect outlets in multiple bathrooms. GFI receptacles were so expensive at first it was cheaper to run more wire than to install multiple GFI receptacles. My parent's house was built in 1979 and has two bathrooms, the garage door opener, and the outside outlets all on one circuit due to needing GFI protection. It is a miracle that circuit doesn't trip the breaker due to overload. Nobody would do that today as GFIs are relatively cheap compared to the cost of wire and labor.

[John Huds0n]

A simple GFCI tester like this is always good to have around. Not only will it tell you if the outlet is on circuit protected by a GFCI, it will also indicate whether the outlet is wired correctly

Less than $10 from Home Depot, Lowes, Amazon, etc

270618

[Wade Lippman]

Are you sure this outlet isn't fed by one of the GFI outlets so it already has GFI protection? It is typical in a bathroom to have just one GFI that protects all outlets in the bathroom.


No, there are two GFCI outlets and two circuits in the bathroom.
I am thinking I can move this outlet from the panel box to a largely unused GFCI outlet next to the panel box.

I know you can't mix bathroom and non-bathroom outlets on the same circuit (at least I think I know that...) but the bathroom already has one dedicated circuit; does the second one have to be dedicated also?

[Ole Anderson]

I know you can't mix bathroom and non-bathroom outlets on the same circuit (at least I think I know that...) but the bathroom already has one dedicated circuit; does the second one have to be dedicated also?If so, I am in trouble. I wired my house in 1975 and put all GFCI outlets (bath, garage and exterior) on one GFCI panel breaker. It passed inspection. But code has changed in 38 years.

[Rick Potter]

Like Brian said, about weird things happening in the 70's (talkin' about electrical stuff here). My house built in '78 or '79 has a GFI in the downstairs bathroom which also serves the hall lights next to it, the master bath lights upstairs, the main upstairs bathroom lighting and plug, and...........an outside plug next to the back door that is no where near any of the other stuff. That one has been redone during the remodel. It took us a while to figure out why lights upstairs didn't work sometimes.

As John said, a tester is great to have. Be aware that older houses without grounded wiring may have a GFI added in the bathroom with no ground wire. The GFI will work in this case, but that tester will not trip it. The proper test in that case is to just push the button. (Not an electrician, but it's in the HUD inspection manual for Section 8 housing. Don't ask, it's a looong story.)

Rick Potter

[Matt Marsh]

The code requires at least one dedicated 20 amp branch circuit for the bathroom receptacle outlets in each dwelling unit. It states that these circuits shall have no other outlets. In other words, no you can't feed other types of rooms. The only exception to this is if the circuit only supplies one single bathroom. Then the required circuit can feed other types of outlets, like lights, fan etc. There is some terminology that must be kept straight. "Outlet" can be any point on a circuit that uses electricity, i.e. lighting or receptacle. The code did not always require things this way, so of course if your house was wired before this, you don't need to rewire.

[Wade Lippman]

The code requires at least one dedicated 20 amp branch circuit for the bathroom receptacle outlets in each dwelling unit. It states that these circuits shall have no other outlets.

My master bath currently has two dedicated circuits. One has two outlets by the sinks; the second has a single outlet on a wall. (There is a third circuit for lights, shared with the bedroom).

So, if the circuit by the sinks is dedicated, can the second circuit be changed to be shared with an outlet in the basement?

[Matt Marsh]

So, if the circuit by the sinks is dedicated, can the second circuit be changed to be shared with an outlet in the basement?

No.

NEC article 210.11(C)(3) states "Such circuits shall have no other outlets." In other words, the circuit(s) must be dedicated 20 amp circuits to the bathroom receptacles, and they cannot serve any other outlets. Again, the only exception is if the circuit stays in the same bathroom, it can supply the lights, fan, heater etc. in that same bathroom. These circuits could supply the receptacles in multiple bathrooms, but then they must only serve receptacles. They cannot however serve other rooms.

[Mike Cutler]

My bathroom has three outlets. The two next to the sinks have to be gfci, but how about the one in the wall? It is 4' from the nearest water.

I bought the led nightlight-outlet someone recommended in another thread here and just thought of gfci...

Wade

You can't assume that your bathroom needs remediation.
While on the surface it appears that your bath may not meet the "current revision of the code". It does not mean that your bathroom did not meet code at the time of installation. There have been many changes to the code regarding thecement and requirements of GFCI's since their introduction.
I can state for a fact that the code used to specify "at least one GFCI Protected circuit for the bathroom(s)"and detailed placement. After that you could theoretically install a hundred non GFCI proctected outlets, and as long as at least one circuit was GFCI protected and the outlets that met the requirement for a GFCI because of the sink, you were good. Even the requirements for sink, tub and shower distances has changed.
I've seen it measured from the drain, the faucet, the edge, etc.
The code changes and evolves as time goes on and GFCI's have been a part of the code since the 70's. Add in the delays for state and local adherence and there are gaps in application.

David G. Baker has a good solution. Install a GFCI in that outlet if it's bothering you.

[Brian Elfert]

Wade
David G. Baker has a good solution. Install a GFCI in that outlet if it's bothering you.

I believe the OP's dilemma is he wants to install an outlet that has an LED night light and outlet all in one. He doesn't have an option to install a GFCI in that outlet. He already has another circuit in the bathroom with two GFCI protected outlets. I believe his question is if all bathroom outlets need to GFCI protected.

[Brian Elfert]

My bathroom has three outlets. The two next to the sinks have to be gfci, but how about the one in the wall? It is 4' from the nearest water.

I bought the led nightlight-outlet someone recommended in another thread here and just thought of gfci...

Why not a GFCI breaker for the circuit that will have the LED nightlight outlet on it?

[Roy Turbett]

My parent's house was built in 1979 and has two bathrooms, the garage door opener, and the outside outlets all on one circuit due to needing GFI protection. It is a miracle that circuit doesn't trip the breaker due to overload. Nobody would do that today as GFIs are relatively cheap compared to the cost of wire and labor.



Another problem with this configuration is that if the GFCI trips, you won't be able to use the garage door opener. Because the garage door outlet is in the ceiling, it isn't required to be on a GFCI. In this situation, I'd only install GFCI outlets where they are required by code and have them protect a single outlet. Another situation to consider is whether a freezer, refrigerator or sump pump is on the circuit. You do not want them on a GFCI for the same reason. Of course, there isn't a problem with protecting multiple outlets downstream of the last GFCI if a special consideration isn't present.

[Mike Cutler]

I believe the OP's dilemma is he wants to install an outlet that has an LED night light and outlet all in one. He doesn't have an option to install a GFCI in that outlet. He already has another circuit in the bathroom with two GFCI protected outlets. I believe his question is if all bathroom outlets need to GFCI protected.

Sorry about that. I didn't read it close enough to see that the LED and outlet were one in the same. My bad.:o

I will go out on a limb here and "assume" that at the time his bathroom was installed, it passed the "current inspection for that time period". Replacing an outlet like the one he described would be within the bounds of the homeowner. It would be no different than replacing the outlet if it got broken.
Should he hire an electrician that has a license to protect, and adhere too, that person might, or might not, do it.
If a person were to pull a permit for a bathroom remodel then in all likelihood the local building codes may require the electrical, for the bathroom, to be brought into current code compliance. They also may not if the electrical is not part of the bathroom remodel. I think replacing an oultet would fall outside a permit application though. But, you never know.
David still has a good answer. A quality GFCI will cost about $15.00, depending on the rating. A GFCI breaker will be about double that. It's cheap, either way. Assuming he can replace the breaker himself. If not, hiring the license will solve the issue.

[Wade Lippman]

Why not a GFCI breaker for the circuit that will have the LED nightlight outlet on it?
Cause a Square D gfci is $55.

Looks like it will be going in the family room.

[Brian Elfert]

Another problem with this configuration is that if the GFCI trips, you won't be able to use the garage door opener. Because the garage door outlet is in the ceiling, it isn't required to be on a GFCI. In this situation, I'd only install GFCI outlets where they are required by code and have them protect a single outlet. Another situation to consider is whether a freezer, refrigerator or sump pump is on the circuit. You do not want them on a GFCI for the same reason. Of course, there isn't a problem with protecting multiple outlets downstream of the last GFCI if a special consideration isn't present.

It isn't a good design, but that is the way the builder's electrician wired the house in 1979. The bathroom lights were also on the GFI circuit. If it rained hard water would get into the outside outlets and trip the GFI resulting in no bathroom lights.

I'm sure the electrician didn't want to run a separate wire just for the garage door opener so he used the outside outlets circuit which happened to be GFI protected. I don't recall if the garage lights and outlets are GFI, but they probably are. I have no idea why the breaker for the GFI circuit never trips considering how many things are on the circuit.

[Steve Meliza]

Another problem with this configuration is that if the GFCI trips, you won't be able to use the garage door opener. Because the garage door outlet is in the ceiling, it isn't required to be on a GFCI. In this situation, I'd only install GFCI outlets where they are required by code and have them protect a single outlet. Another situation to consider is whether a freezer, refrigerator or sump pump is on the circuit. You do not want them on a GFCI for the same reason. Of course, there isn't a problem with protecting multiple outlets downstream of the last GFCI if a special consideration isn't present.

I think that tends to get a bit regional if I recall correctly. For instance, around here the garage door openers must be on GFCI but you can forgo putting a fridge or freeze on GFCI if you meet a bunch of requirements that help ensure nothing else in the garage can make use of that circuit.

As for Wad's problem, why can't you tap into the existing GFCI outlet? If that isn't an option why can't you afford $55 for a GFCI breaker whose life it saves could be your own?

[Wade Lippman]

As for Wad's problem, why can't you tap into the existing GFCI outlet?

Because snaking the cable through an exterior wall really isn't worth the trouble.


If that isn't an option why can't you afford $55 for a GFCI breaker whose life it saves could be your own?

The only thing that would ever be plugged into that outlet would be a vacuum. And if I am vacuuming when there is a couple feet of water on the floor (hard to see how else I could get hit with a ground fault while vacuuming otherwise) then I deserve whatever happens. Of course the bathroom is directly over the panel, so I expect I wouldn't have power to vacuum with anyhow.
Actually I said earlier that I would be putting the nightlight in the family room as there was no simple solution to the GFCI problem, but thinking about it, there really isn't any way it would be dangerous. Thanks for making me think about it.

[Roy Turbett]

I think that tends to get a bit regional if I recall correctly. For instance, around here the garage door openers must be on GFCI but you can forgo putting a fridge or freeze on GFCI if you meet a bunch of requirements that help ensure nothing else in the garage can make use of that circuit.



I stand corrected. It is a regional thing because the code changed in 2008 and the exceptions I cited were removed. Some communities didn't adopt the new the new code so the old rules still apply. Michigan (where I live) adopted the new code and section E3902.2, garage and accessory building receptacles, requires all receptacles in garages and grade-level portions of unfinished accessory buildings used for storage or work areas shall have ground-fault circuit-interrupter protection for personnel.

The 1999 and 2002 NEC section 210-8a3 had exceptions for receptacles not readily accessible OR single receptacle for equipment not easily moved OR duplex receptacle for two fixed appliances. All of these exceptions were removed in 2008 and the only remaining exception is a receptacle supplying only a fire alarm or a burgler alarm.

[Joel Goodman]

No to hijack this but I have two ground fault outlet boxes in my kitchen -- each powers an extra outlet as well. One often trips for no reason, sometimes tripping as soon as you reset it. Is it worth switching out the GF box or is there more likely a short in the wiring ? I guess I am asking how reliable the GF boxes tend to be?

[Dan Hintz]

No to hijack this but I have two ground fault outlet boxes in my kitchen -- each powers an extra outlet as well. One often trips for no reason, sometimes tripping as soon as you reset it. Is it worth switching out the GF box or is there more likely a short in the wiring ? I guess I am asking how reliable the GF boxes tend to be?

I've had GFCIs bad right out of the box. For the $10, I'd suggest swapping it out before digging out the wiring (though a simple multimeter check would be prudent).

[Ruperto Mendiones]

Could the box be replaced with a duplex box with a gcfi on one side and the nightlight on the other?

[Steve Meliza]

The only thing that would ever be plugged into that outlet would be a vacuum. And if I am vacuuming when there is a couple feet of water on the floor (hard to see how else I could get hit with a ground fault while vacuuming otherwise) then I deserve whatever happens. Of course the bathroom is directly over the panel, so I expect I wouldn't have power to vacuum with anyhow.
Actually I said earlier that I would be putting the nightlight in the family room as there was no simple solution to the GFCI problem, but thinking about it, there really isn't any way it would be dangerous. Thanks for making me think about it.

Bathrooms are one of the first few places that the NEC started adding the GCFI requirement to, and that was in 1975. I applaud your superior intelligence, situational awareness, and willingness to die if you are wrong. But what about family, house guests, and the next people that come along and buy the home? A sharp home inspector might spot the lack of GCFI on that outlet so now you'd be on the hook as the seller to pay an electrician to fix the problem since it will be obvious that the outlet is new work that was not done to code.

By the way, I thought $55 was a bit high so I looked it up, the GFCI breakers for my panel cost $36. Do it right or do it twice.

[Wade Lippman]

Bathrooms are one of the first few places that the NEC started adding the GCFI requirement to, and that was in 1975. I applaud your superior intelligence, situational awareness, and willingness to die if you are wrong. But what about family, house guests, and the next people that come along and buy the home? A sharp home inspector might spot the lack of GCFI on that outlet so now you'd be on the hook as the seller to pay an electrician to fix the problem since it will be obvious that the outlet is new work that was not done to code.

By the way, I thought $55 was a bit high so I looked it up, the GFCI breakers for my panel cost $36. Do it right or do it twice.

Sadly, mine are $55.
I just sold a house and a cottage, and bought a house. None of the inspectors were likely to have noticed the issue; and if they did, putting a GFCI breaker in will be no more expensive then.

But since you think I am stupid, unaware, and foolishly risky; tell me of a situation in which an outlet 4' from a bathtub, 4' from a sink, and 18" off the floor is going to result in harm, bearing in mind that anything done at the sinks will use the two GFCI outlets there. I mean other than the classic throwing a AC radio into the bathtub while someone is using it.

[Brian Elfert]

I don't know that I would worry about having GFCI protection as long as the outlet met code when it was installed. Doing something with a wet floor is about the only time you might get close to water with that outlet. The National Electric Code is bordering on the ridiculous on this point with all the new stuff they keep requiring for new homes. A few 50 to 100 year old homes burn down due to electrical issues and they require new houses to have safeguards against whatever caused those homes to burn. Never mind that if those older homes had been wired to even the 1990 code they probably never would have burned.

How do folks handle selling a house from the first half of the century that hasn't been updated with new wiring? Is the inspector going to note everything that doesn't meet current electric code including no GCFIs in the bathroom and kitchen?

[Wade Lippman]

Any danger to this solution?

I have a GFCI breaker that is UL approved for two hot wires. It currently goes to a outlet on my dock which used to be used for a hoist, but is now used once a year for an hour for a leaf blower. I could put the nightlight/outlet circuit off of that. Yes, if my wife uses it for her blowdryer at the same time I am using it for the leaf blower (roughly the same probability as being hit by a meteor...) it will trip, but I can't see how it would ever be dangerous.

Am I overlooking anything, or do I have a workable solution? (I can put everything back to original in 15 minutes before I sell the house in 10 years)

I presume they used a GFCI breaker rather than an outlet because a GFCI outlet wouldn't do well outside like that. Does that make sense, or should I leave them as separate circuits and just put a GFCI outlet at the dock?

[Mike Cutler]

I don't know that I would worry about having GFCI protection as long as the outlet met code when it was installed. Doing something with a wet floor is about the only time you might get close to water with that outlet. The National Electric Code is bordering on the ridiculous on this point with all the new stuff they keep requiring for new homes. A few 50 to 100 year old homes burn down due to electrical issues and they require new houses to have safeguards against whatever caused those homes to burn. Never mind that if those older homes had been wired to even the 1990 code they probably never would have burned.

How do folks handle selling a house from the first half of the century that hasn't been updated with new wiring? Is the inspector going to note everything that doesn't meet current electric code including no GCFIs in the bathroom and kitchen?

Replacing that outlet, or any outlet in your home, regardless of location, is not "new work". If the circuit and or the wiring are remediated, modified, altered, or upgraded, that would be "new work". As such it would have to meet current code, and even that is not an absolute dpending on the indivdual permit application boundry. But, there is latitude depending on exactly what work is being performed.
There is nothing wrong with Wade installing that outlet/light, as long as it has the same rating as the one he is replacing. It is not uncommon for a home owner to change all of the duplex receptacles and switches in a house simply because of color, and this would require no code remediation.

" How do folks handle selling a house from the first half of the century that hasn't been updated with new wiring? Is the inspector going to note everything that doesn't meet current electric code including no GCFIs in the bathroom and kitchen?"

Probably not.
What the inspector may note are clear code violations with respect to the wiring as it currently exists. He may make suggestions as to how to remediate the current system to bring it closer to code compliance, or add a safety factor.
Here in Connecticut, and throughout New England, it is not uncommon to find electrical systems within houses that still have everything from original Knob and Tube to current code installations in the same house.
very little at all is cut and dried, black and white, with respect to building codes.