Are full overlay doors really FULL overlay?

[Stan Krupowies]

A friend of mine has asked me to give an estimate for replacing all his cabinet doors (26 doors) in his kitchen. They would like mission style doors, which is nice because there is no profile to be concerned about. They want the doors to be full overlay on face frame cabinets and he is expecting that full overlay would cover all of the frame. Looking at the Blum hinge selection guide it shows a 7/32" reveal for the 39C type hinge and a 9/32" reveal for the 38C hinge. Is this normal or standard for full overlay doors? Are there any hinges that will provide for truly full overlay doors yet still allow the doors to open?

Thanks for the help
Stan

[Robert Delhommer Sr]

I doubt it. :)

[Michael W. Clark]

I think some hinges are listed by the amount of overlay. I know Grass makes some that go from 1/2" to over 1-1/4" (different models, not the one hinge that covers this range). You'll need to know the face frame width and you still need a small gap between the doors. The smaller the gap, the more noticable inconsistencies will be if the gap is not even.

[Jerry Miner]

If you look at the technical specs, you will find that the Blum 39c will give you various overlays, depending on the mounting plate you use---from 1" to 1 9/16"

The 38n gives overlays from 3/8" to 3/4"

If you use the compact 33, you can get overlays from 1/4" to 1 5/8" or more---as much as you want.

Here is one source for tech specs:

WW Hardware Blum Specs (http://www.wwhardware.com/manufacturer/manuals/1122/blum)

[glenn bradley]

If he has any doors that open back to back, the method of accomplishing his goal can get a bit weird. The back to back (hinge to hinge) doors would have to articulate out and away to avoid hitting each other.

270523

[Duane Meadows]

Are there any hinges, full overlayor otherwise, that do NOT allow the door to be opened? Guess it depends on how far you want to open the door, and what you consider "full overlay" Most(if not all) euro hinges have some limit on how many degrees the door can open. And has been mentioned the amount of overlay varies widely. My understanding is simply if no part of the door is inside the FF/cabinet and the door is larger than the opening.. it's full overlay!

Guess maybe I'm not quite sure what your asking!

PS Glenn posted while I was typing this and kind of explained it perhaps?

[Jamie Buxton]

Here's a hinge that mounts to the front of the face frame, so it allows any overlay distance you want. Its point of rotation is in front of the door, so it can be used with a zero gap between doors.

http://www.hardwaresource.com/hinges/CABINET+HINGES/Overlay+Hinges%2C+Wrap+Around+-+Partial+Inset+Hinges/Overlay+Hinges%2C+Non-wrap-around/Pivot+Hinge+270+Degree

If you don't like that one, poke around that web site. They have a wide variety of hinges.

[Stan Krupowies]

I understand that the amount of overlay varies, especially depending on how wide the face frame is. In this case the frames are 1 5/8". That's not the concern so much. What he is looking for is a concealed hinge that would allow back to back (hinge side to hinge side) doors to essentially touch when the doors are closed. The specs I see on the Blum site show that there needs to be a 7/32" or 9/32" reveal between the outside edge of the frame and the edge of the door. So on back to back doors there would be a 14/32" or 18/32" (7/16" or 9/16") gap between the doors. So my question is, is this as close as the doors can be and yet still be able to open?

[Duane Meadows]

On my Blum 38N 1/2" overlay hinges, need about 1/4" between doors to be able to open 1 at a time with a freud euro profile on the door edges. Opening 2 back to back at the same time? Whole different issue.

[Mark Wooden]

Try Salice cabinet hinges. I've had good luck with their 40mm hinges in tight spots.
The amount of radius/profile on the edges of the doors will have a lot to do with how close you can get them to one another.
Have your friend show you a picture -or better yet in person- of the gap size he wants. If someone did it, you can too.

[Justin Ludwig]

I'll play with my Blum hinges in the shop today and see what the maximum overlay I can get out of their 73B3550 hinges various plates. Jacking with the bore hole distance might work. A pair door back-to-back hinge will need close to a 13/16" overlay (variable because the hinges are adjustable). I think the harder problem is making sure you can get a single door open on the 1-5/8" FF. There will have to be some margin allowances to accommodate any doors the butt to a wall or tall cabinet.

[Peter Quinn]

I took a close look at my Blum guide last nite, and I don't think back to back pairs can be butted with tight gaps on FF cabs using either of those hinges. I think you can get that look on euro boxes where the hinges hang off the sides because they crank in and pivot simultaneously. Perhaps you can use full overlay for euro boxes and pack out the cases to act like euro boxes? Might result in closer gaps.

[Frank Drew]

I always thought that "full overlay" wasn't in reference to the amount of reveal but rather meant
that the door, in thickness, fully sat on front surface of the cabinet (face frame or not), rather than being either partially or completely inset.

[Duane Meadows]

I always thought that "full overlay" wasn't in reference to the amount of reveal but rather meant
that the door, in thickness, fully sat on front surface of the cabinet (face frame or not), rather than being either partially or completely inset.

+1 That was my thought as well!

[Jeff Duncan]

+1 That was my thought as well!

An "overlay" door is a door that sits completely on the face of the cabinet vs inset or partial inset. A "full overlay" is a door that covers the face frame leaving you with the 'Euro' look. There are many faceframe cabinets that use "overlay" doors that have significant faceframe exposed between doors....I'd even go so far as to say it's much more common, (around here anyway). Doing faceframes with "full overlay" is just a bit more involved.

In order to do a full overlay you must know the size of the face frames and what hinges to use. For most faceframe cabinetry with Blum hinges your going to be using Compacts as I believe they're the only hinges that will allow large overlays. You may very well need a variety of plates to handle different overlays which is often the case.

good luck,
JeffD

[Mel Fulks]

Helpfull explanation ,I have been guilty of confusing the two terms. So FULL overlay are the cabinets that don't look like old ice boxes .

[Jeff Duncan]

Helpfull explanation ,I have been guilty of confusing the two terms. So FULL overlay are the cabinets that don't look like old ice boxes .

Short answer is yes!

More likely response....."what's an old icebox look like?":D

JeffD

[Justin Ludwig]

I agree with Jeff, but I haven't used Blum's compact hinges. I did a little experiment this evening after I shut down to see what I could get out of a normal 1/2" overlay (euro) hinge and standard face plate.

Normal application is to bore the stile @ 5mm. I took a random piece of Alder and bored it @ 10mm. Doing this, I got the door to a 3/4" overlay, but it only opened 80*. Playing around, I chamfered the back to give relief and let it open past 90*, but not to it's full 110*. See pics for clarification.

Regardless, you can't have a 0mm/0" margin on back to back doors with "this" hinge. 1/8" reveal is ideal. A 3/4" overlay would give an 1/8" reveal a face frame that is 1-5/8". If you have a solo door an end or against a wall/tall cabinet, you can't get a full overlay using this method... nor would I recommend it to minimum the margin.

My distributor sells Blum, so my knowledge is limited. Plus, building new cabinets, I can dictate the face frame or construction method to reach the customers wants. Rework stinks.

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[Jerry Miner]

The specs I see on the Blum site show that there needs to be a 7/32" or 9/32" reveal between the outside edge of the frame and the edge of the door. So on back to back doors there would be a 14/32" or 18/32" (7/16" or 9/16") gap between the doors.

Those reveals are not additive. One gap of 7/32 would allow either door to open. One way to get a tighter reveal would be to use the Blum "120+" (b073T....) with a "0" height mounting plate and a 6mm edge bore. As shown on the spec. sheet, you would end up with a 19mm (3/4") overlay before adjustment---or a 21 mm overlay when adjusted fully out, and the minimum reveal between pairs would be 1.9mm--(3/32). (assuming a 3/4 (19mm) thick door---a thinner door would allow a tighter reveal)

Spec. sheet (http://www.wwhardware.com/media/installation/b072install.pdf)

[Jerry Miner]

I always thought that "full overlay" wasn't in reference to the amount of reveal but rather meant
that the door, in thickness, fully sat on front surface of the cabinet (face frame or not), rather than being either partially or completely inset.

You are confusing "full overlay" and "half overlay" with "half inset" or "3/8 inset"

The first two are used in reference to euro-hinges and refer to how far beyond the edge of the opening the door edge extends. The second two refer to the offset from the plane of the face frame and are used when the door has a rabbeted edge that creates a "lipped" door edge.

[Justin Ludwig]

http://d1.blum.com/mefiles/BEC003/compactff_pt_dok_bus_$sall_$aqu_$v1.xls

Here's a link to Blum's compact hinge planner. It will reach the reveals you need. If you have 2 face frames butted and their respective doors are back-to-back, then yes, you will have a reveal of 7/16 or 9/16 depending on hinge selection. Hopefully the cabinets weren't built that way. That type of cabinet construction is something usually purchased at a BORG or found in rentals (at least in my area).

[Jeff Duncan]

http://d1.blum.com/mefiles/BEC003/compactff_pt_dok_bus_$sall_$aqu_$v1.xls

Here's a link to Blum's compact hinge planner. It will reach the reveals you need. If you have 2 face frames butted and their respective doors are back-to-back, then yes, you will have a reveal of 7/16 or 9/16 depending on hinge selection. Hopefully the cabinets weren't built that way. That type of cabinet construction is something usually purchased at a BORG or found in rentals (at least in my area).

Not sure I'm following you here.....the FF's are 1-5/8" according to the OP, so even if there are 2 frames back to back he only needs a 7/32" reveal between them. Not sure where your 7/16" is coming from?

JeffD

[Justin Ludwig]

I see what you're saying, Jeff. *note to self - Finish coffee before posting* I was only looking at one overlay distance.

Would an outside profile that reduces the thickness of the door stile enable you to get a tighter reveal with those hinges? I assume Blum bases their numbers off of 3/4" stock?

Thanks for the correction.

[Jeff Duncan]

I see what you're saying, Jeff. *note to self - Finish coffee before posting* I was only looking at one overlay distance.

Would an outside profile that reduces the thickness of the door stile enable you to get a tighter reveal with those hinges? I assume Blum bases their numbers off of 3/4" stock?

Thanks for the correction.

Weeellll.....maybe:o So here's the thing, the Blum catalog will give you basic specs for basic configurations so that you can find something that will work for a defined situation. If you delve into the specs it will spell out the minimum reveal and the details that go with it....like door thickness. Once you step outside that boundary it falls into the great unknown. At this point it's a matter of try it and see! I know this b/c I often use doors that are 13/16"+ thickness;) So changing things like how close the hinge is bored to the edge of the door, profiling the outer edge of the door, and even profiling, (well simply rounding anyway), the inner edge of the door can reduce the minimum reveal. Of course using the right hinge that allows a large overlay as well as a small reveal also makes a difference. With a bit of fiddling the compact 33's can leave you a very small reveal....say 1/8" strong or so.

So what I do when needed is set up a prototype which is just an L-shaped length of stock imitating a FF meeting the side of a cabinet/panel/door etc., and a length of stock to represent the door. I mount my "door" with a plate that'll give me the right range of overlay and then gradually adjust it in to the corner until it binds, then you can see where shaving a little, or profiling a little, or even moving the hinge location can affect the reveal. It's a bit of trial and error but is fairly quick and easy to do and ensures your finished project works as it should;)

hope that helps!
JeffD

[Mark Kay]

A friend of mine has asked me to give an estimate for replacing all his cabinet doors (26 doors) in his kitchen. They would like mission style doors, which is nice because there is no profile to be concerned about. They want the doors to be full overlay on face frame cabinets and he is expecting that full overlay would cover all of the frame. Looking at the Blum hinge selection guide it shows a 7/32" reveal for the 39C type hinge and a 9/32" reveal for the 38C hinge. Is this normal or standard for full overlay doors? Are there any hinges that will provide for truly full overlay doors yet still allow the doors to open?


Thanks for the help
Stan

Full & half overlay are usually for frameless. I am building faceframe cabinets too and using 1-1/4" overlay hinges which, on 1.5" wide faceframes, should leave about 1/4" visible; they are also available in 1.5" overlay... but keep in mind you need some clearance if in a corner or against a wall or another cabinet. I bought mine on ebay as blumotion hinges and didn't check if they are 38 or 39 series...

I just went to my seller's ebay store and the normal/NOT SOFT CLOSE for 1.5" OL are 39C358C.24.
He sells the BLUMOTION Soft Close 1.5" OL for $2.75 here:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/BLUM-OVERLAY-BLUMOTION-COMPACT-CABINET-HINGE-SOFT-COLSE-SOFT-CLOSEING-38N-39C-/261086328188?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&var=&hash=item826b7a2165

They are available all the way up to 1-9/16" OL.

Hope this helps.