Can this blade be repaired? (is Infinity being fair about this?)

[Dan Friedrichs]

I bought a new miter saw blade from Infinity (first blade I've ever bought from them). A couple of test cuts impressed me, but on about the 3rd cut I made with it, the blade thew a couple of teeth, broke a shoulder off, and bent a shoulder. See picture.

As far as I can tell, I didn't do anything wrong - no knots or metal in the wood, no fences or obstructions in the way of the blade's travels, etc.

I contacted Infinity, and their reply was that such damage couldn't have occurred unless I had hit something, so they couldn't offer me any assistance.

My questions are:

1) Can this blade be repaired by a competent sharpening service? The missing teeth should be fixable, but that missing shoulder...

2) Is Infinity being reasonable with me? This blade was literally 2 weeks old, and had only made 3 cuts. I can see how they would be reluctant to offer to replace the blade, since they have no PROOF that I didn't hit something hard with it - but at the same time, am I just out-of-luck if a brand new blade throws teeth?


270399

[Lee Schierer]

I had a similar problem with a Freud blade a number of years ago. I was cutting 45 degree bevels on the end of some pieces to make a mitered corner box. To save wood, I made the first cut right at the end of a piece which resulted in a triangular shaped cut off riding on top of the blade. It jiggled for a second and then one of the teeth caught it and drove if down into the opening in the throat plate, which forced the blade to the left where the teeth hit the other side of the metal throat plate, breaking two carbide tips off and one complete tooth. I sent the blade to Freud with an explanation of what happened and they set me a new blade.

The lesson learned was to have a zero clearance insert when making any cut, even a bevel cut.

I do tend to agree with them that just cutting wood should not have resulted in that kind of damage. Is it possible the blade was dropped before you purchased it? With regard to repair. As far as I know, they can replace a carbide insert, but not a tooth.


How smooth were the first two cuts you made? Was there anything in the first two pieces that might have damaged a tooth? How about posting a photo of both sides of the last cut you made.

[David Venditto]

Dan,
Please send this blade back to us so we can evaluate. I've never seen a blade body fail in this fashion without some kind of intervening force against the body. We'll give it a test and come up with something suitable.
Best,
David V.
Infinity Tools

[jack forsberg]

i have seen lots of teeth come off in my 30 years in the shop but the blade body braking could not be from cutting clean wood. You can see the metal bending and the force it took to rip the first one from the blade . something like this just does not happen with regular cutting IMO.

that tool guy is great for giving you a saw that you toasted. count your lucky stars too and review what your doing. you lucky your not hurt.

[Jerry Toschlog]

This might just be the lighting,..... but look at the 3rd tooth to the right of the missing tooth. The top looks more squared off and even the carbide tip looks a bit shorter on top.

[Dan Friedrichs]

Dan,
Please send this blade back to us so we can evaluate. I've never seen a blade body fail in this fashion without some kind of intervening force against the body. We'll give it a test and come up with something suitable.


Thanks, David. To be clear, I've never before broken teeth off a blade, so I'm unsure what to think. If your judgement is that such damage couldn't have happened without some unreasonable force, then I'm perfectly happy purchasing a full-price replacement from you (as the first few cuts were fantastic :) ). I'll PM you...

[ken masoumi]

A few months ago I was using my sliding miter saw and pushed a little hard while cutting some oak ,the blade(Infinity 010-060) made an unusual noise so I stopped and examined the blade,3 teeth had broken off.
It was my favorite blade and I was really mad at myself for pushing on it too hard ,anyhow I took it to a sharpening service and was told it wasn't worth the repair cost(plus sharpening the blade) and I would be better off buying a new blade.
If the cost of shipping to Canada wasn't so high,I would have bought another 010-060 blade in a heart beat.

[glenn bradley]

I had a similar experience when I hit 'something' in a piece of "shoulda-been-clean" wood. Similar damage but, on a 50 tooth blade. It was repaired and has given good service since.

[Richard Coers]

What were you cutting? Hardwood or manmade material? I'd say the blade is scrap. Pretty sure no one will want to try and weld on a tooth, with the heat required going into the body of the saw, it will probably warp.

[Jim Matthews]

That's a decent offer, David.

Good onya.

[Phil Thien]

I suspect the first shoulder broke-off on its own, buried itself in the wood, and then broke-off the 2nd shoulder.

[Ed Griner]

It's a shame "Members" tend to use this forum for customer service problems,maybe Keith should charge by the complaint.

[johnny means]

I've used hundreds of blades in my career, and have never seen a blade fail in that manner withouthitting steel or stone. What I have seen, however, is a plethora of foreign objects embedded in "clean" lumber. Bullets, steel shot, nails, stone, teeth, wire, sheet metal are just a few examples of thinfo I found the hard way.

[Curt Harms]

It's a shame "Members" tend to use this forum for customer service problems,maybe Keith should charge by the complaint.

As long as the poster isn't being objectionable, I have no problem with asking "has anyone seen anything like this before?". There's quite a bit of collective experience here. On the other hand, Dan's post was responded to by the person best able to address his problem. It says something to me about a company when their president/chairman/owner responds to issues with their company's products. Shiraz Balolia (Grizzly) Rob Lee (Lee Valley) and David Venditto (Infinity) are all "the buck stops here" guys and have responded to customer issues on this site. Pretty remarkable.

[Rick Fisher]

I had a thin kerf freud blade that bound in some wet wood.. ( My fault ) .. but didn't stop spinning.. 5hp saw.. And didn't kick back .

It was one of those weird scenes that you would have to have seen in person to understand .. lol

Either way.. it left 3-4 teeth in the wood but the shoulders where okay.. The blade was literally cupped when I took it off..

I rip all lumber on the Bandsaw now .. life is too short..

I would guess you dropped the blade because only one tooth was affected. Or banged it pretty hard..

[Mark Wooden]

Include the piece of wood you were cutting with the blade when you send it back for analysis.
I've experienced where a weak braze on a tooth let go, left the tooth in the cut and wrecked the blade. The manufacturer stood behind their product, but may not have been able to if they didn't get the full picture.

[Marvin Wilson]

I read an article by a guy years ago who had a similar experience. He was cutting plywood and there was a 1/2 steel nut embedded in it. I have seen blades warped, chunks knocked out of a carbide tooth and carbide teeth completely snapped off but in my 38 years working as a carpenter and woodworker I've never seen this kind of damage. Can't really blame the manufacturer for doubting your story even though it may well be as true as the story about nut in the core of that sheet of plywood.

[Bill White]

I applaud Curt for his comments, and the fact that the grand poobahs respond. Customer service from folks who take ownership in issues, whether they are owners themselves or not, is a quality that leads to repeat business.
Bill

[Bob Wingard]

Most manufacturer's warranties are worded something to the effect that they cover most everything short of negligence. If one were to hit a nail or a bullet embedded in a board in such a way as to not be visible to a casual inspection, would that be covered ?? Any manufacturers care to chime in on this point ??? Not trying to start a big war here ... just would like to see/hear how different companies respond, and learn from their logic ... maybe they would enlighten us all as to what precautions we might take to avoid being in this type of situation.

[scott spencer]

It's great that David has replied personally. I'm sure he'll take good care of you.

[Malcolm Schweizer]

Just a thought- could your arbor be wobbling, warped, etc? Could the blade have been warped? Was the blade on tight with proper backing washer, or could it have been loose? All of these could induce damage to the blade due to the teeth binding in the cut or not hitting squarely in the cut.

Not blaming here, but rather just suggesting possible causes because if there is a problem and you load a new blade e same way you may get the same result.

[Stephen Cherry]

I contacted Infinity, and their reply was that such damage couldn't have occurred unless I had hit something, so they couldn't offer me any assistance.



My impression is that the situation has two possibilities, one of which is the possibility suggested by infinity:

1. There was something in the wood, in which case it is not the manufacturers problem.
2. There was not something in the wood, in which case you want to just chuck the blade in the trash and move on happy that one of the teeth did not end up in a sensitive area. If the blade cannot support itself through the cut, you do not want it.

[Mikail Khan]

I suspect the first shoulder broke-off on its own, buried itself in the wood, and then broke-off the 2nd shoulder.

Agreed. At the speed at which this blade spins, I would expect to see more than 2 teeth damaged if this blade came into contact with a hard object in the wood. Good reason to wear safety glasses at all times. MK

[Anthony Whitesell]

I suspect the first shoulder broke-off on its own, buried itself in the wood, and then broke-off the 2nd shoulder.

I can see that as a likely scenario, but I would be curious as to why the first one broke. If nothing else, I would talk with Dave/Infinity and allow them to do some failure analysis on the blade.

[Rick Lizek]

What were you cutting? Hardwood or manmade material? I'd say the blade is scrap. Pretty sure no one will want to try and weld on a tooth, with the heat required going into the body of the saw, it will probably warp.

Carbide isn't welded on cutter bodies. It's hard soldered otherwise known as Silver brazing. It's very commom to have broken teeth rebrazed on blade bodies. My Sharpening service does them for $5 a tip. Properly done the heat isn't enough to warp anything. You do realize that's how the tips are applied in the first place.

Another option is to grind the damaged teeth off and two teeth on the opposite side to maintain balance providing that's all that is wrong with blade. I've done that on several blades over the last 40 years working commercial shops. No point in tossing something that can still be used. People are too quick to judge something broken as opposed needing to be tweaked. I know I could salvage that blade to last for a good long time.

[Mel Fulks]

I do the same thing ,Rick. I (and I suspect you ) save even the old unsharpenable saws for cutting stuff with nails in it. Sometimes a job of that type is profitable enough to do something you would normally consider dumb.The ops case is unusual and interesting , I think if he had hit something he would know it and aknowledge it.

[Rick Lizek]

I do the same thing ,Rick. I (and I suspect you ) save even the old unsharpenable saws for cutting stuff with nails in it. Sometimes a job of that type is profitable enough to do something you would normally consider dumb.The ops case is unusual and interesting , I think if he had hit something he would know it and aknowledge it.

I don't go that far with old blades but I do work in a place that deals with recycled wood and have blades that are designed to cut through nails. We try to denail it as much as possible. Any blade will cut through lead, aluminum and brass. When I was working as a Metalsmith I used a table saw and router routinely with non-ferrous.

[Larry Edgerton]

I had this happen recently. A homeowner used my saw without asking. I was watching from above. He did not have the piece up against the fence and cut way too fast. It broke off two teeth from the blank, bent the blank and ruined a Makita 12" saw.

I'm not saying that is what you did Dan, just that it can happen.

Larry

[Phil Thien]

I can see that as a likely scenario, but I would be curious as to why the first one broke. If nothing else, I would talk with Dave/Infinity and allow them to do some failure analysis on the blade.

I don't even know if I'm right, it probably isn't fair for me to come up with theories.

We should wait and see what Infinity says.

[Mike Gresham]

Most manufacturer's warranties are worded something to the effect that they cover most everything short of negligence. If one were to hit a nail or a bullet embedded in a board in such a way as to not be visible to a casual inspection, would that be covered ?? Any manufacturers care to chime in on this point ??? Not trying to start a big war here ... just would like to see/hear how different companies respond, and learn from their logic ... maybe they would enlighten us all as to what precautions we might take to avoid being in this type of situation.

Metal detector?

[Anthony Whitesell]

True. True. I don't know either. But it is a sequence of events that fits the circumstances. I do hope to hear the outcome.

[Dan Friedrichs]

Update:

I returned the blade to Infinity and they conducted some tests on it. They found nothing defective in the material or workmanship of the blade, but are returning it to the factory in Italy for further analysis.

At this point, I suspect it's a fair assumption that there may have been some incursion in the wood that I didn't see. I admit that I don't run a metal detector over my stock.

Infinity was tremendously helpful and generous in their analysis, suggestions, and resolution of this issue. In retrospect, I wish I had not identified the manufacturer of the blade in my original post, as my questions were broadly applicable to any blade, but Infinity's customer service was fantastic and well above anything I'd ever expect from such a supplier.

[Carl Beckett]

Another editorial:

I think its great that representatives and owners of companies that focus on the woodworking market participate in this forum. It is through direct customer feedback where you learn the most about the products and services you offer, and my observation is that they frequent these forums for just that. To learn about their market, perception of their products, and feedback 9including issues).

As long as the original poster didnt come out flaming 'such and such a company is all bad/evil'... I see nothing wrong with sharing an experience.

Dan owned his side and was open on what happened. Infinity owned their side. It was ameable and a path forward was resolved.

Personally I am honored when an owner chimes in on the site. Its a business, but at the same time they really do care enough to read/respond to the population here.

This type of behavior compels me to send more business their way whenever possible.

$.02

[Frederick Skelly]

Dan, Im glad this is working out for you. Thanks for following up with us.

@Carl Beckett: +1. I also like to see Owners and other significant WW players weigh in here.

Fred

[Mike Tekin]

Dan,

I wouldn't regret putting the companies name in your post because you mentioned that their first response wasn't helpful and it wasn't until you posted that the owner provided a different response than the first you received unless I am missing something.

In the end, both sides stepped up to the plate and you approached creating this thread with a good attitude.


Update:

I returned the blade to Infinity and they conducted some tests on it. They found nothing defective in the material or workmanship of the blade, but are returning it to the factory in Italy for further analysis.

At this point, I suspect it's a fair assumption that there may have been some incursion in the wood that I didn't see. I admit that I don't run a metal detector over my stock.

Infinity was tremendously helpful and generous in their analysis, suggestions, and resolution of this issue. In retrospect, I wish I had not identified the manufacturer of the blade in my original post, as my questions were broadly applicable to any blade, but Infinity's customer service was fantastic and well above anything I'd ever expect from such a supplier.