4/4 Stock Question....

[Derek Arita]

Wood is getting so expensive that I limit myself to purchasing 4/4 boards. Of course, no matter how flat and straight they look, I always have to mill them further to get them flat and straight. Many times, once milled, the boards end up less than 3/4" thick. What am I doing wrong? I cut the boards to near project length so as to minimize waist. What else can I do? Thanks for the help.

[Brian Hale]

Derek,
Can you discribe your milling proccess? When you bring the wood home, are you stickering it and letting it acclimate to your shop?

I cut the parts to near net size, let it sit for a week or so and then surface it. In general, crosscut first, joint/cut one edge straight, cut opposite edge, let sit then joint/plane to thickness.

Brian:)

[John Renzetti]

hi Derek, You are not doing anything wrong. You might want to find a different supplier if the claim they are selling you 4/4 FAS grade. I don't have the exact figures in front of me or the reference document but there are standards for a board to be graded as FAS. When I buy 4/4 stock at my supplier the actual thickness is closer to 1 1/8". This of course is rough stock. When milled the finished board is easily 7/8" or more.
I think FAS grade is around at least 8ft length and 8" wide there are limitations on any defects on at least one side.
Check to see what grade you are being sold first. If it says FAS on the invoice you should complain. And find a new supplier.
take care,
John

[Ellen Benkin]

You should be able to get 3/4" final stock out of 4/4" rough lumber. Are you sure you are getting 4/4? If you are taking more than 1/4" off in the jointing (flattening) and planing processes then the lumber must be very warped or twisted.

[Steve Roxberg]

I believe he is buying S4S (surfaced four sides) OR S2S (surfaced two sides, the faces) and the wood is probably 13/16th which only gives you 1/16 to flatten.

That my friend is why I need wide jointers, big planners, and only buy my wood in the rough. The wood is cheaper and I can often get finished wood at 7/8 if the application calls for it.

[jack duren]

um...maybe not steve, all depends on what he gets,where he gets it and the moisture content. thats the characteristics of wood. buy extra :) .....jack

[Dev Emch]

You should always buy your lumber from a good dealer and buy it rough. Then you should let it sit in your shop a few days to aclimate itself to your shop. Next you need to set your jointer up for a very very thin cut. 1/32 to 1/16 max. With the lumber cut into rough size items, joint one edge and mark it. Now face joint one face and mark it. Again, work carefully and take off the albsoulte minimum amount needed. You now have one reference edge and one face that adjoin and these are your reference edge and reference face.

Let these sit some more to settle out. Check the reference corner with an engineer's square to make sure life is good. Now set your planer up to take off a very small amount. It pays to have your planer dialed in here. Bed rollers, infeed roller, outfeed roller, knife projection, chip breaker, pressure bar etc. All adjusted spot on! Slowly take down the rough face using your jointed face against the planer bed. Here is where that jointed face buys you dividends in spades! I can almost hit 7/8 inch thickness every time out of 4/4 rough using this method. Of course, I also use a dial caliper to measure the thickness as I go!

The longer your boards are, the more issues you may have. Long boards can warp and cup which can require you to take down more stock than needed to overcome the defect in the longer run. By cutting the boards to rough length first, you can reduce the amount of material needed for removal to cure some of these defects.

All of these tips are tips that lumber vendors dont have time for. Many times, they plane both sides of the board without consideration to jointing one face. (i.e. they dont do it.) The result is that the board picks up a wavy edge. Same thickness but the edge is not straight. Now you have to joint like a drunken sailer to get this down. In some cases, a 4/4 board done this way will yield a 1/2 to 5/8 inch board once I correct their mistakes. Another reason to buy lumber rough, fuzzy and unedged.

O.K. Just remember this. This process produces two reference surfaces which are marked. When using marking squares and machine fences, etc., always reference or mark off your refererence edges. The other face is as parallel as your planer setup can make it. The same goes for the second edge. Now you can rip cut that edge or joint it or run it though a shaper or router table. The more you do to it, the less parallel it becomes to the reference edge. Mistakes accumulate. So work hard to establish a reference edge pair and then always work from this reference edge pair.

Have you guys ever marked out a tenon cheek and wondered why the square didnt match perfectly up once you got back around to the first cheek line? Maybe you own a cheesy or defective square. Maybe you have been referenceing from two un-parallel reference planes and your looking at the combined error differential.

Hope this helps. Once you get the knack of doing it this way, it becomes second nature and you can do it in your sleep. This is a very simple concept that will keep the putty can on the shelf where it belongs.

[Alan Tolchinsky]

In addition to all the above I sometimes rip parts to the correct width as well as x_cut to length. I do this on my bandsaw as it's safer with twisted boards. Cutting boards to rough width helps remove some of the twist just like cutting to length does. I hate it when a board has so much twist/cupping that you end up with less than 3/4". I shoot for 7/8" on most boards.

[Jim Becker]

With the lumber cut into rough size items, joint one edge and mark it. Now face joint one face and mark it. Again, work carefully and take off the albsoulte minimum amount needed. You now have one reference edge and one face that adjoin and these are your reference edge and reference face.

It's a good idea to flatten the face first before jointing the reference edge as running a rough board on the fence will not likely provide an edge that is perpendicular to the eventual milled face. You don't need a straight edge to flatten the workpiece as the fence only serves to keep the board from slipping off the back of the machine when face jointing... ;)

[Steve Rowe]

Like others posting, I purchase my lumber in the rough and mill it myself. With 4/4 lumber I usually get 7/8" thickness unless there is significant twist or cupping. I always rough cut to the length I need and try to select the straightest portion prior to milling. This maximizes the usable lumber.
Steve

[Dev Emch]

Jim...

To some degree your right. It is easier to face joint first. This is esp. true when your jointing 12 inch to 24 inch wide boards. Once you get the knack of it, it does not really matter. The second reference surface is always based relative to the first surface done by the jointer. I have done it both ways. I do have to admit that on nasty defect boards, I do like to do the edge first. By doing the edge first, you provide a reference edge for the second surface and you can see where you stand after the first jointer pass on the reference surface. All your high spots will be orthogonal to the edge which rides the fence. You now have an idea of how much needs to be taken down. Afterall, you trying to mimimize the amount removed and preserve thickness. Its kinda like a gage to work from. But as I noted, either way will work and I do it both ways depending on how I feel.

[jack duren]

i think id pass on edge jointing first. too many issues. personally i buy all my lumber finished, but then again i can use as much as 50-100 bd ft in a given day ;) ....jack

[lou sansone]

hi Derek, You are not doing anything wrong. You might want to find a different supplier if the claim they are selling you 4/4 FAS grade. I don't have the exact figures in front of me or the reference document but there are standards for a board to be graded as FAS. When I buy 4/4 stock at my supplier the actual thickness is closer to 1 1/8". This of course is rough stock. When milled the finished board is easily 7/8" or more.
I think FAS grade is around at least 8ft length and 8" wide there are limitations on any defects on at least one side.
Check to see what grade you are being sold first. If it says FAS on the invoice you should complain. And find a new supplier.
take care,
John

hi john

you must be buying your lumber at an old "grand pappy" mil for them to give away an extra 1/8" all the time. I actually don't like getting 4/4 that thick (1.125") if my intended use is 3/4. When I saw ( on my mill ) and I don't think I am alone on this, 4/4 means 1" thick boards. Many mills have a simple scale that allows you to make the first cut and then just drop the saw rig by 1" increments for each successive cut. I have bought wood from guys who were just starting out with a mill and the wood is "thick" like you are saying. After a few months of that they start to trim it down to the 1" mark. At least that has been my experience.

now on to the problems with Dereks wood. Maybe I missed something, but where did he say that he was buying FAS? and where did he say that he was buying finished s4s lumber? So at least for me, could you please provide some more information?

With all due respect, I have to disagree with dev on jointing the edge before facing it. I read your explanation, but still am confused. Maybe I am doing things the hard way, but I often face, plane, edge joint and rip in that order. Sometimes I will change the order to face, edge joint, plane and rip. I use a dial caliper and machinest sq for all of my operation and they are pretty true. But hey, evey one has their own way of doing things.


lou

[Steve Roxberg]

hi john


now on to the problems with Dereks wood. Maybe I missed something, but where did he say that he was buying FAS? and where did he say that he was buying finished s4s lumber? So at least for me, could you please provide some more information?


lou

I took his statement "Of course, no matter how flat and straight they look" to mean that they were already preped in some manner. I've rarely looked at rough sawn and thought about it being flat and straight. I only worry about large twists and bows. But again I was making an assumption. I've also never, when my tools are properly tuned, had a problem gettin 3/4 boards out of 4/4 rough. Maybe I've been lucky.

[Dev Emch]

Lou...

Not quite sure about your comments. As I said before, I do it **BOTH** ways. Sometimes its easier to just face joint first. Sometimes I just start edge jointing first. If I am running heavy figure, then I will certainly face first because I can skew the board over the jointer. That is the advantage to having 20 inch and 24 inch jointers.

My main point appears to have been lost however. That is the importance of establishing two orthogonal reference surfaces from which to gage all further work. This is esp. true if your using hand tools to cut and fit jointery, etc.

Sorry if this all created such confusion. In the end analysis you should do what works for you. This works for me and I have no complaints. I also do this for a living now and I have never had a complaint on my accuracy. But what works for me may not work for the next guy and vice versa.

[jack duren]

Dev we all in the end do what we please, its in our blood to rebel against the norm. but ive never seen anybody go after an edge first with a roughsawn board. its common ground and common training to go after a face to see what you have and to get squareness against the fence. in the 80's most all work i did was with rough sawn(i certainly dont miss it) no gain in squaring up an edge and then face only to go repeat the process for another square edge.

to each his own, but a hard sell atleast in my book. but the final product speaks for itself and thats the only real important thing. we walk out our own paths on how we get there.woodworking doesnt really have a bible but many books of journeys which we learn on ..jack

[Dev Emch]

Jack....

The guy wanted to know how we prepare rough lumber and i told him how *I* do it. I am not trying to sell you on doing the edge first. In fact, if you would *please* re-read my posts, you would see that i do it *BOTH* ways. I do high end arch. woodworking for a living and quite frankly dont really care how others do it. I own both a 20 inch porter jointer and a 24 inch oliver jointer and have logged more time on both of them than I care to divulge. I dont sit there with a punch list printed off the internet telling me exactly how to lace my shoe strings or joint my lumber. You should do it however you think it should be done and use whatever method floats your boat. Thats all.

[jack duren]

we will just have to agree to disagree ;) . thats fine....jack

[Dev Emch]

Jack...
Not sure what your point is. As mentioned *BEFORE*, on *VERY* wide boards and *HIGHLY* figured boards, I will face first. On boards whose edge and face are much closer to each other such as a 2 by 3 rail, you can go either way. In some cases, I am trying to maximize board thickness. In other cases, I am trying to minimize blow out by skew cutting. On a very wide jointer, you have lots of options.

As mentioned before, the key is to leave the jointer with a reference pair orthogonal to each other. And here the key is that the two surfaces are relative or differential to each other. This is really a very simple concept.

Also bear in mind that this applies to super precise work. If your doing this to run tonque and groove for a barn or rustic game room, never mind. You dont the accuracy.

If you would rather just use a planer, then go for it. Appearently, I have brought up a concept that is not common among machine users. If you dont understand this, please feel free to post a question in the hand tool users area. I will concede that modern machines are so accurate as to make this much less of an issue than it was when hand tools dominated.

Boy, I am glad that I didnt bring up the concept of setting a jointer to do spring joints! Dont even wish to go there.

[lou sansone]

I took his statement "Of course, no matter how flat and straight they look" to mean that they were already preped in some manner. I've rarely looked at rough sawn and thought about it being flat and straight. I only worry about large twists and bows. But again I was making an assumption. I've also never, when my tools are properly tuned, had a problem gettin 3/4 boards out of 4/4 rough. Maybe I've been lucky.

Hi steve
I am in complete agreement with you. Unless the board is really twisted or the piece is real big, as you said, you should be able to get it done. I was simply asking for a little more info. sorry for the confusion

lou

[John Renzetti]

[QUOTE=lou sansone]hi john

you must be buying your lumber at an old "grand pappy" mil for them to give away an extra 1/8" all the time. I actually don't like getting 4/4 that thick (1.125") if my intended use is 3/4. When I saw ( on my mill ) and I don't think I am alone on this, 4/4 means 1" thick boards. Many mills have a simple scale that allows you to make the first cut and then just drop the saw rig by 1" increments for each successive cut. I have bought wood from guys who were just starting out with a mill and the wood is "thick" like you are saying. After a few months of that they start to trim it down to the 1" mark. At least that has been my experience.

Hi Lou, I get my stock from Hearne Hardwoods which luckily for me is only about 20 minutes drive. I guess I'm lucky because invariably his 4/4 stock is about always just over 4/4 at least by a 1/16 and I've got some that were about an 1/8. I've been going nuts trying to find the source where I just read that 4/4 stock that is FAS will normally be greater than 1 inch thick. I agree that if you are looking for a final 3/4" thickness then any overage then would get planed away. I have some cope and stick cutters that require a minimum 22mm stock thickness so for these getting those slightly over 4/4 boards really helps.
Have a great Memorial Day.
take care,
John

[thomas prevost]

I have to agree with many talking about "Grandpappy" mills. There are two scales on most mills. One is for softwood (dimension lumber) being exactly to the quarter(4/4, 5/4, 6/4). and the other being "green cut" for hardwoods. This scale being 1/8 thicker than the quarter. It is to account for loss in drying. Graded hardwoods must be thickness at dried conditions. Many buying a mill for hobby and extra income do not understand the differences and use the first scale for everything. If you find a mill that talks about "green thickness" being to the quarter for hardwoods-RUN. Not only will you have problems with thickness, They may not have the knowledge to properly cut and process as to minimize movement when used in your projects.

[jack duren]

Dev the difference between edge jointing a 2x3 and a 12" board is big. you made the comment of 12" -24" edging. if your taking boards that are almost the same edge as width thats fine and im sure everyone would understand.

i guess your second comment was misleading and im glad you cleared that up.

yep im a full blown machine guy. not very interested in hand tooling. thou it is most interesting :) :) .

when i was in school hand tools was the training i received but after leaving school i went right into commercial millwork at 18. machines is what ive made a living on.

i do enjoy seeing the work done (with handtools) and the finish product from the use of hand tools :cool: . i guess thats why i hang around these forums :) ;) . but ill cheat with a machine as much as possible if the results are the same...jack

[Dev Emch]

Jack...

Go back and re-read messages #11 and #15. I dont understand what would be misleading about my last "2nd" comment? Were you talking about the comment about cross section aspect ratio or were you talking about the use of an orthogonal reference pair?

John R.

In terms of using a 22 mm cope & stick set, 22 mm is a hair under 7/8 inch. In fact, 22 mm is 0.866 in and 7/8 is 0.875. So you you should be O.K. using 4/4 rough and preping correctly.

What I hate is the wavy nature some boards pick up when planed on both sides. This is not the boards fault. It is as much the planers fault as well. You picking up surface roughness because of how a planer works and this is carrying through the whole process.

[jack duren]

"To some degree your right. It is easier to face joint first. This is esp. true when your jointing 12 inch to 24 inch wide boards. Once you get the knack of it, it does not really matter."

[Derek Arita]

Wow! Thanks for all the help. The lumber i purchase has two planed surfaces and one jointed edge. It is pretty much dead on 4/4 thick. Sounds like I have to concetrate more on taking smaller planer cuts. I usually surface a face, then joint an edge off the face, then plane the other face, then rip the final edge off the jointed edge. Hope this helps the diagnosis. Thanks again!

[Bob Weisner]

Does anyone know why it is so hard to find a 2x4 that is 2 inches thick by 4 inches wide finished? The sawmill in town that I get my lumber from is the ONLY !! place that when I call them and tell them that I need to buy some 2x4's , they sell me lumber that is 2 inches x 4 inches finished.

Thanks,

[lou sansone]

I have to agree with many talking about "Grandpappy" mills. There are two scales on most mills. One is for softwood (dimension lumber) being exactly to the quarter(4/4, 5/4, 6/4). and the other being "green cut" for hardwoods. This scale being 1/8 thicker than the quarter. It is to account for loss in drying. Graded hardwoods must be thickness at dried conditions. Many buying a mill for hobby and extra income do not understand the differences and use the first scale for everything. If you find a mill that talks about "green thickness" being to the quarter for hardwoods-RUN. Not only will you have problems with thickness, They may not have the knowledge to properly cut and process as to minimize movement when used in your projects.

I agree with tom on this one. As best as I can see, you do have to be about 1/8 thicker when sawing green or else you will be under a real 1.00" when dry. On my norwood mill the calcualtion is done automatically. There are several scales that you look at when cutting. For 4/4 hardwood you choose the "1 inch thick setting" with is actually 1.125" in the real world. (So in my previous post I was correct about simply ticking off the "1 inch thick marks", but it was misleading. It probably sounded like I was saying the for a 4/4 board you saw it 1 inch green - which as tom said result in some pretty thin 4/4 wood). From my experience, hardwood that is then dried will end up a scouch over 1.00". But like john said, some of the time wood does end up a little thicker than planned.

lou