Paul Sellers Woodworking Masterclasses

[Daniel Rode]

Someone here recommended that I take a look at Paul Sellers' videos on youtube. That led me to his site and eventually to his paid Woodworking Masterclasses videos. I don't have any family of friends that do any woodworking, let alone building furniture with hand tools, so seeing it done and having everything explained has been incredibly helpful. I'm learning his way of doing things. It may not be the only way or even the best way, but I find it helpful to learn a single consistent method and then build on that to do the next thing.

Personally, I find him very likable, so that makes the videos more enjoyable for me. I think the idea behind the Masterclasses is somewhat like an abbreviated apprenticeship or a series of related courses. It's not teaching one skill but building a more general competence in woodworking. He also has concentrated on woodworking with a minimal set of common tools. A decent smoothing plane, a few chisels, a carcass or tenon saw, a sharp knife, etc. I don't have all the tools he uses but he often shows how to do something without the "better" tool. A chisel in a block of wood vs a router plane, for example.

There are a few things that seem to be missing or difficult to adjust to. The first thing is that one needs a certain amount of ability just to get started. The early projects are simple but they require sharp chisels and a sharp, tuned plane. He does some explanation of sharpening but it's unlike other methods. He creates a convex bevel on his chisels and irons. In addition he creates a camber on the plane iron. He does this all freehand on a set of 3 diamond stones and then finishes with a strop and some fine polishing medium. I can get a very sharp edge using scary sharp and/or Duo-Sharp diamond stones and a honing guide. My Veritas guide especially makes it simple and repeatable. Going from a flat bevel/micro bevel to a convex (and cambered) freehand is simply too far beyond my abilities. Moreover, I don't want to ruin good chisels and irons freehanding the sharpening just to spend more time fixing the uneven edges with a guide.

Well, that's my $0.02, anyway.

-Dan

[Steve Voigt]

Hey Daniel,
A lot of people like Sellers, and he definitely has some good ideas. I have to admit I'm not a fan, mainly because he has a guru-like tendency to say that his methods are The. Only. Way. to do something. Sharpening is the prime example--he gives the impression that only the convex bevel method will give good results, and all other methods "weaken the edge" or some nonsense. But of course, there are lots of sharpening methods that produce great results. So, if sandpaper and a guide is working for you, I can't see any reason to change. Take what you can use, and discard the rest.

[Jim Koepke]

+1 on what Steve said.

There are many ways to get to a sharp edge. What works best for you is "the correct way."

There are even different ways to camber a blade or create secondary bevels.

My suggestion is to start with a flat back and a single bevel. Once you are able to get to that point with consistency, then get a spare blade, like the $3 plane blade available at Home Depot, to try some of the different techniques. This way you at least know you can get to sharp and if any of the tricks do not work out, you won't be at a loss for knowing what didn't work.

Also consider the important part of woodworking isn't in the tools or the methods, but the results. If you are getting satisfying results, you are doing well.

jtk

[Matt Knights]

Buy a junk shop chisel and try it, if you find your method easier and quicker then go back to that. I have now fully converted to the convex bevel and find it super easy, very quick and repeatable, sharpening is no longer a chore as it takes seconds.

That's my $0.02 worth

Matt

[Daniel Rode]

Also consider the important part of woodworking isn't in the tools or the methods, but the results. If you are getting satisfying results, you are doing well.


I agree completely about the results. However, I'm at a point where I don't fully know what works for me and what doesn't. I can get good edges on my chisels and on my non-cambered plane blades but it's not fast, I'm not sure it's sharp enough and it seems like I need a camber on my smoothing plane. In my mind, this seems to support a freehand approach and Sellers method seems easier to learn. I've never tried it, but it seems like a fairly intuitive motion that I could practice and learn. Holding a chisel dead flat at 25 degrees is not so easy. Regardless, I'm guessing based on conflicting expert opinions :(

I've read a long, contentious thread from 2012 about convex bevels and sharpening methods. It was tough to find any 2 post that agreed. It's really tough for a newcomer to sort through it all and come up with one method to focus on and learn.

[Federico Mena Quintero]

I agree completely about the results. However, I'm at a point where I don't fully know what works for me and what doesn't. I can get good edges on my chisels and on my non-cambered plane blades but it's not fast, I'm not sure it's sharp enough and it seems like I need a camber on my smoothing plane. In my mind, this seems to support a freehand approach and Sellers method seems easier to learn. I've never tried it, but it seems like a fairly intuitive motion that I could practice and learn. Holding a chisel dead flat at 25 degrees is not so easy.

A good test of being sharp enough is if you can pare pine endgrain and leave a burnished surface - i.e. the fibers are cut, rather than crushed. Test your just-sharpened chisels and plane irons on the end of a scrap of pine, and it will be very obvious when it's sharp enough to leave a nice endgrain surface.

With practice you'll get better at holding tools at a consistent angle while sharpening them. You can set a bevel square and make it sit up beside your sharpening stone for a quick eyeballed check every few strokes.

For a smoothing plane, I guess the main thing is that it doesn't leave tracks at the edges of the iron when planing. So you can feather just the vertices, instead of cambering the whole thing in one go. See what level of feathering/cambering you are comfortable with, and make sure the plane doesn't leave tracks in the wood.

[Jim Koepke]

I agree completely about the results. However, I'm at a point where I don't fully know what works for me and what doesn't. I can get good edges on my chisels and on my non-cambered plane blades but it's not fast, I'm not sure it's sharp enough and it seems like I need a camber on my smoothing plane. In my mind, this seems to support a freehand approach and Sellers method seems easier to learn. I've never tried it, but it seems like a fairly intuitive motion that I could practice and learn. Holding a chisel dead flat at 25 degrees is not so easy. Regardless, I'm guessing based on conflicting expert opinions :(

I've read a long, contentious thread from 2012 about convex bevels and sharpening methods. It was tough to find any 2 post that agreed. It's really tough for a newcomer to sort through it all and come up with one method to focus on and learn.

It is doubtful anyone ever picked up a blade and did a perfect freehand sharpening the first time. Work slow to get your angle holding awareness accurate. Once you have accuracy you will develop the speed. Practice, practice, practice.

There are a few methods of testing for sharpness. Like methods of sharpening it is something that people have to pick for themselves. Federico mentions the pairing soft wood end grain. Some like to slice paper.

If you are married, make sure your wife doesn't mind you sharpening the kitchen knives. This is where a lot of my practice has obtained. Being able to slice a ripe tomato is worth the effort.

My blades tend to get sharpened at the first sign of dullness unless it is late and there are just a few more passes to make. Keeping them sharp all the time seems like more trouble, but it is just a little work at a time, instead of a lot of work all at one time.

This may not work for everyone. My shop has enough space to allow me to keep most of my sharpening equipment set up and ready to go all the time.

Here is something of mine that takes a different look at blade camber:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?158373-My-Camber-Blade-Round-Tuit-Finally-Came

With this method the blade is still sharpened straight but the backside bevel works to keep it from cutting out to the edge with the possibility of leaving tracks. Make the backside bevels at the edges real small as they are a lot of work to remove if you decide they are not wanted. DAMHIKT! (Don't Ask Me How I Know This!)

Cambering is often used on scrub planes. For this it is better to camber the bevel instead of the back. Scrub planes are used for removing a lot of stock and are pretty much expected to leave tracks.

Some use a camber on smoothing planes to prevent tracks. Tracks do not often show up for me when using a smoother. Mostly it is because my smoothing planes are set up with a sharp blade to take as thin a shaving as possible. One of my planes was leaving some tracks recently. The cause was a chip breaker with a slight gap at one side of the blade. It trapped some shavings and they were marking the surface. This was likely caused by me being a bit lazy. The blade was just sharpened on one of my roughing planes. Figuring with a "freshly sharpened blade" it should be able to do a little smoothing. It revealed this plane was not fully fettled.

jtk

[Jim Matthews]

I've attended the 9 day class in person, and can attest to the method for sharpening with a couple of provisae:

You've really got to bear down to sharpen freehand, if you're going to do it quickly. (I can start with a squared plane blade and get to sharp in about 20 minutes the first time.)
The appeal of this method is that you needn't set up anything to get back to sharp, and that can go quite fast. I can get a dulled plane blade back in play in less than three minutes.

There's also little mess this way, although I use a light machine oil on diamond stones instead of water or glass cleaner - no rust on the diamond plates, that way.

To get the proper angle, the blade needs to be at about my waist height. Too high a sharpening bench, and the final angle is too shallow - a low bench makes the grind angle too steep.
(This makes sense, in that you're basically holding the blade at the same angle as your plane does, but you're swinging through an arc at the end of the grinding/sharpening pass.)
It works out to about the same height for planing; elbows braced at my side and almost straight out at the end of the stroke.

The idea behind this convex bevel is really that the entire surface behind the cutting edge is polished, and there's little drag as you go through the shaving.
In practice, I think you could get the same degree of polish with most sharpening methods.

I've watched some YouTube videos of Japanese plane blade sharpening by traditional carpenters, and there's a great deal of congruence.
It's not really complicated, and once you've got a few under your belt - it's dead simple to get back to work.

The only reason the camber is stressed in the video most of us see is that the preferred plane used in Mr. Seller's teaching is the #4 which is a smooth plane.
By grinding down the edges of the plane blade, you can't really leave ridged "tracks" as you work a panel.

This doesn't so much induce a true camber, as make it less likely that you'll dig in a corner as you go.

I think there are other methods that work just as well or better, but this one is simple - repeatable - and remarkably compact in both time and space.

[Steve Voigt]

... the preferred plane used in Mr. Seller's teaching is the #4 which is a smooth plane...


Jim, the sentence above reminded me of something. Moving away from the sharpening discussion for a second: Recently, I read a post by Sellers. A reader wrote in to ask why he never mentioned jointer planes. Here's his response (I am not making this up, I swear):

I suppose technically we don’t really need them so much now that we have machines that dimension the wood to size and even plane surfaces parallel. Whereas it’s true, most lumber and timber(UK) suppliers have questionable standards of treatment to get their product to market and sold, in general we can rely on wood being planed to size and being square. Almost all wood is passed through machines whereby it would indeed be impossible for it to not to come out square. they are not using hands to make materials square but usually five-head cutter moulders that indeed make four sides dead to size and square. So, even boards that are not straight are almost always parallel and, in my local UK store at least, well-milled from dry stock and stored indoors until sold.
I would say that long planes are basically a thing of the past because of this.

I would pretend to be astounded by this, but it's actually not that surprising. His writing is shot through with this sort of stuff. I'm sorry, I just don't think the Emperor has any clothes.

However, this has no bearing on the convex bevel method, which has been around for centuries. It's too bad people call it the Sellers method. I completely agree with everything you (Jim, that is) said about sharpening. I don't use the convex method, but thumbs up to anyone who gets great results from it.

[Hilton Ralphs]

If you accept the Schwarz philosophy of Coarse, Medium and Fine, then you'll know that a jointer hand plane does not replace the powered jointer at all. Those are coarse tools (like the jack or scrub plane). The hand plane jointer is a medium tool.

[Jim Matthews]

I would pretend to be astounded by this, but it's actually not that surprising. His writing is shot through with this sort of stuff. I'm sorry, I just don't think the Emperor has any clothes.

However, this has no bearing on the convex bevel method, which has been around for centuries. It's too bad people call it the Sellers method. I completely agree with everything you (Jim, that is) said about sharpening. I don't use the convex method, but thumbs up to anyone who gets great results from it.

Mr. Sellers shop is outfitted with a full range of planes from Lee-Valley to complement the basic #4 used in the intro courses.

He uses other sizes in his own work, as the needed by the piece being made.
I think his point is that you can get started with a smaller toolkit, and the compromises made necessary by a smaller kit aren't difficult to manage.

The point in the passage above is that a decent lunchbox planer and reasonably large jointer make larger planes surplus to most people's requirements at the current prices.
What does a Dewalt 13" planer cost in comparison to a LN #7? That's the bottom line.

I've tested the theory that you can get long boards flat and straight with just a #4. It can be done.
I don't care to do it again - it took me nearly three hours to manage a upright dresser panel made of three boards, all 9" wide/50" long and 3/4" thick.

It was a PITA.

FYI - Mr. Seller's shop has a full complement of power tools to supply the milling needs of students.
You would never get beyond a six board box in 9 days, milling everything by hand.

As with much of what PS says, you've got to stop at the text and forget searching for subtext - he's pretty much plain spoken.
WYSIWYG

[Don Dorn]

I too think that Mr. Sellels has a full compliment of planes. However, I think his message is simply that you don't need everything to get started and that you can do a lot with a #4 and very few other tools. Even though I do have nearly one of everything, I'll admit that I've reduced my usage to a #3, 4 & 5 1/2", but still use my mighty #8 for edge work, but not a great deal of surface work. I agree with him about lumber coming at least good enough that I never need the jack to be used in the manner Schwarz uses them in Course, Medium and fine. I am not nearly as concerned with "flat" as I used to be, preferring "smooth".

As to sharpening, for about a year now, I have adopted the convex system because of his demonstration. I'll admit that my edges are not sharper than when I used a guide, but it does have it's benefits. It doesn't take as long, I don't seem have any issue keeping it square, grinding time has all but gone away and it seems to retain the edge longer.

The thing that drew me to it was the fact that not being perfect at holding an edge turned out to be a benefit rather than a detriment. Cosmans method is good too and I've used that, but I like this better. Cosman once commented that if sharpening is a chore rather than something that can be done very quickly, people will use the tool until it's too dull. That was me - now, when I'm done at the end of a session, I freshen the blades and chisels I used and because it takes just a minute or two, I don't see it as a burden and put them away as sharp so that I find them that way next time I need them. As with everything that involves muscle memory, I've not only get better over time, but it takes even less time than when I started. Turns out to my cup of tea but know it's not everyone's.

[george wilson]

Since I never use any jig to hold my plane irons or chisels when honing on stones,my edges naturally come out a little convex,and have for many decades. So now it's the Seller's method? I agree it makes the actual edge stronger since it isn't so thin just beyond the cutting edge. As long add I get a razor sharp edge,the result is the same in the end. The old master cabinet maker from Holland sharpened his planes with the bottom edge close to parallel with the wood. He thought it made the plane cut smoother. The edge was necessarily not as acute,but it was sharp and it worked for him. I dabbled with his method for a time back in the 70's when I was just turning 30. I liked to experiment. It made resharpening more time consuming,so I went back to using a more acute grind.

The coopers were always hand planing hard white oak. They were actual real coopers from London,who had to make 2 kegs a day to feed their families When working in a small shack WITHOUT WINDOWS,candles only,at Whitbreads.(I thought the English made things tough for themselves!):) They ground their edges VERY acute. Their grinds were about 1/2"long ! I suppose it made resharpening the blades on stones easier for a longer time. I was surprised hat they didn't have trouble with chatter from it,but they made joints that would not leak under pressure(like from beer fermenting).

[Roy Lindberry]

Someone here recommended that I take a look at Paul Sellers' videos on youtube. That led me to his site and eventually to his paid Woodworking Masterclasses videos. I don't have any family of friends that do any woodworking, let alone building furniture with hand tools, so seeing it done and having everything explained has been incredibly helpful. I'm learning his way of doing things. It may not be the only way or even the best way, but I find it helpful to learn a single consistent method and then build on that to do the next thing.

Personally, I find him very likable, so that makes the videos more enjoyable for me. I think the idea behind the Masterclasses is somewhat like an abbreviated apprenticeship or a series of related courses. It's not teaching one skill but building a more general competence in woodworking. He also has concentrated on woodworking with a minimal set of common tools. A decent smoothing plane, a few chisels, a carcass or tenon saw, a sharp knife, etc. I don't have all the tools he uses but he often shows how to do something without the "better" tool. A chisel in a block of wood vs a router plane, for example.

There are a few things that seem to be missing or difficult to adjust to. The first thing is that one needs a certain amount of ability just to get started. The early projects are simple but they require sharp chisels and a sharp, tuned plane. He does some explanation of sharpening but it's unlike other methods. He creates a convex bevel on his chisels and irons. In addition he creates a camber on the plane iron. He does this all freehand on a set of 3 diamond stones and then finishes with a strop and some fine polishing medium. I can get a very sharp edge using scary sharp and/or Duo-Sharp diamond stones and a honing guide. My Veritas guide especially makes it simple and repeatable. Going from a flat bevel/micro bevel to a convex (and cambered) freehand is simply too far beyond my abilities. Moreover, I don't want to ruin good chisels and irons freehanding the sharpening just to spend more time fixing the uneven edges with a guide.

Well, that's my $0.02, anyway.

-Dan

Personally, I have fantastic results with Sellers' sharpening method. I find it to be very quick and very easy, and gets me back to work - which encourages me to sharpen when the tool needs it, and not work with a dull tool because I don't want to take the time to sharpen. With a little bit of practice I don't think it will be a problem for you (though I learned to sharpen freehand initially, and have never used a jig).

However, with all that said, if you have a method that works, and you don't want to use up valuable time pursuing another -then do it the way that works. A sharp tool is a result, not a process. We all need a way to get there, but it doesn't need to be the same way. You'll find a lot of good stuff in Sellers' videos, and you might find things that don't work well (I have tried the "chisel in a piece of wood router plane" numerous times with very little success).

When you eat a chicken, you spit out the bones.

[Simon MacGowen]

Mr. Sellers shop is outfitted with a full range of planes from Lee-Valley to complement the basic #4 used in the intro courses.

He uses other sizes in his own work, as the needed by the piece being made.
I think his point is that you can get started with a smaller toolkit, and the compromises made necessary by a smaller kit aren't difficult to manage.

The point in the passage above is that a decent lunchbox planer and reasonably large jointer make larger planes surplus to most people's requirements at the current prices.
What does a Dewalt 13" planer cost in comparison to a LN #7? That's the bottom line.

I've tested the theory that you can get long boards flat and straight with just a #4. It can be done.
I don't care to do it again - it took me nearly three hours to manage a upright dresser panel made of three boards, all 9" wide/50" long and 3/4" thick.

It was a PITA.

FYI - Mr. Seller's shop has a full complement of power tools to supply the milling needs of students.
You would never get beyond a six board box in 9 days, milling everything by hand.

As with much of what PS says, you've got to stop at the text and forget searching for subtext - he's pretty much plain spoken.
WYSIWYG


+1.

Upfront, let me say that some of us are a bit close-minded and feel uncomfortable about 'new' ways of doing things. This is human nature and happens not just in woodworking but also in other and even professional fields. Many of Paul Sellers' techniques are not new but methods he learned and practiced in his young days.

Here's the deal. Don't judge Paul Sellers' methods of work by what he says or writes on his blog (because out-of-context interpretations can happen and Paul is not writing an article there; he needs to be concise, sometimes, omitting the necessary details). Look at his methods and try them before making any learned comments about his techniques.

Yes, a #4 alone can flatten and straighten a board; he showed it in one of the projects he did. Would I work that way? No, I don't have the time nor the patience; I use my jointer and jack planes, or I machine everything that is too large for me (you define what too large is for yourself).

If anyone can show whatever Paul Sellers has demonstrated in person (he did a lot tradeshows in the past season and you could hold and examine up close what he made) or on Youtube doesn't work, please tell us so. I would be the first one who wants to know.

His sharpening method works for those who use it; others are welcome to stick to theirs. (Paul Sellers, for the record, has never told anyone to change their sharpening approach; he only offers an alternative.)

Simon
PS I have never attended any of his classes (in person or online), but have tried most of his techniques he made available on Youtube. Everything from sharpening to using a folding knife as a marking knife works like a charm. I am not ditching what I know, I am simply expanding my knowledge.

[Roy Lindberry]

I agree completely about the results. However, I'm at a point where I don't fully know what works for me and what doesn't. I can get good edges on my chisels and on my non-cambered plane blades but it's not fast, I'm not sure it's sharp enough and it seems like I need a camber on my smoothing plane. In my mind, this seems to support a freehand approach and Sellers method seems easier to learn. I've never tried it, but it seems like a fairly intuitive motion that I could practice and learn. Holding a chisel dead flat at 25 degrees is not so easy. Regardless, I'm guessing based on conflicting expert opinions :(

I've read a long, contentious thread from 2012 about convex bevels and sharpening methods. It was tough to find any 2 post that agreed. It's really tough for a newcomer to sort through it all and come up with one method to focus on and learn.

If you are looking for a way to get consistent results freehand, the convex bevel is great. However, if you prefer a straight bevel/micro bevel, you might look at Rob Cosman's method (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZWJxSLQiaYo). It is the way I first learned to sharpen, just from watching this video over and over again. He has a specific way of holding the iron to "lock" into the angle, and yet he will also camber the edge.

I don't know if the angle trainer actually works to train you, or if it's just a gimmick, but I got a very sharp edge following this method. I changed to the convex bevel because I just found it to be a bit easier. Cosman's method might be worth a shot if you are trying for consistent freehand sharpening.

[Simon MacGowen]

Personally, I have fantastic results with Sellers' sharpening method. I find it to be very quick and very easy, and gets me back to work - which encourages me to sharpen when the tool needs it, and not work with a dull tool because I don't want to take the time to sharpen. With a little bit of practice I don't think it will be a problem for you (though I learned to sharpen freehand initially, and have never used a jig).

However, with all that said, if you have a method that works, and you don't want to use up valuable time pursuing another -then do it the way that works. A sharp tool is a result, not a process. We all need a way to get there, but it doesn't need to be the same way. You'll find a lot of good stuff in Sellers' videos, and you might find things that don't work well (I have tried the "chisel in a piece of wood router plane" numerous times with very little success).

When you eat a chicken, you spit out the bones.

(I have tried the "chisel in a piece of wood router plane" numerous times with very little success) - Check if you have the bevel side of the chisel oriented correctly in the block and the relief hole is large enough for the chips to get out. I don't remember if Paul has highlighted those two points. I have two of those "poor man's" routers and given one away after both have been used with excellent results. They are not replacement for my router plane though.

Simon

[David Weaver]

It's kind of odd to call what cosman does "cosman's method" (but i understand the convention that things get named for gives them the most exposure). When you get an old plane that's been taken good care of (like a wooden plane), it's immediately apparent that a lot of them have a long thinner primary and they have a secondary bevel that has very obviously been maintained by hand without a jig.

As far as "training the angle", if you make yourself a long primary in the low 20s degrees or whatever, and you hone with that method and diligently keep the secondary bevel fairly small, when you find an angle that doesn't chip out on plane irons, it'll be somewhere around 30 degrees. You'll get used to it and then find that your final bevel is always within about a degree. Anything slightly off won't feel right.

[Jim Koepke]

However, this has no bearing on the convex bevel method, which has been around for centuries. It's too bad people call it the Sellers method.

People likely call it the Sellers method because he is the contemporary teacher of the technique.

Just like attributing the back bevel or ruler trick to its present day advocate who is associated with its use.

Many past practices were lost or forgotten during the middle decades of the 20th century and are now being rediscovered.

For many, maybe their lumber does come machined to the dimensions needed. For others like myself there are sawyers around that sell rough wood as it comes off the saw. Some will finish the edges at an extra cost.

The flaws in thinking start to creep in with the assumption all woodworkers are set up pretty much the same in their shops or the same lumber products are available locally. The errors add up when it is forgotten that everyone is different and has their own way of doing things.

I may cringe when seeing someone do something different than the way I do it, but far be it for me to tell them they are doing something wrong. They are just as likely to cringe when watching me.

jtk

[Jim Matthews]

The thing that drew me to it was the fact that not being perfect at holding an edge turned out to be a benefit rather than a detriment. Cosmans method is good too and I've used that, but I like this better. Cosman once commented that if sharpening is a chore rather than something that can be done very quickly, people will use the tool until it's too dull. That was me - now, when I'm done at the end of a session, I freshen the blades and chisels I used and because it takes just a minute or two, I don't see it as a burden and put them away as sharp so that I find them that way next time I need them. As with everything that involves muscle memory, I've not only get better over time, but it takes even less time than when I started. Turns out to my cup of tea but know it's not everyone's.

This is a really good point.

When you decide that you will only use sharp tools, the steps to getting things ready again become less a chore, and more about getting back to work.
I was really surprised at what a genuinely sharp chisel, with the rounded bevel behind the cutting edge could do.

Sometimes, it feels like the chisel is just gliding with only my intentions behind it.

Can't say the same about planes, I'm still wrestling with those.

[george wilson]

I do most things the wrong way!! I really do. I am nearly completely self taught. Violin makers,for example,do not finish contouring their tops and backs on until they are glued on,nor do they cut the purflings in until said surfaces are glued on and then finish contoured. They do this to insure the contouring perfectly matches the sides. I completely finish contouring them,and installing their purflings before I glue them on. This ids doing it the hard way,but my contours fit anyway,because I can do it.

There are lots of other things I do "wrong" or the hard way since there were no books on the subjects many years ago when I started about 1952. I didn't see a guitar making book 6 years after I started making them. And,it was 1/8" thick!!

[Jim Koepke]

This is a really good point.

When you decide that you will only use sharp tools, the steps to getting things ready again become less a chore, and more about getting back to work.
I was really surprised at what a genuinely sharp chisel, with the rounded bevel behind the cutting edge could do.

Sometimes, it feels like the chisel is just gliding with only my intentions behind it.

Can't say the same about planes, I'm still wrestling with those.

Jim,

Maybe a post on your trials and tribulations with plane usage could draw some help from others to end your wrestling and deliver you in to the mesmerizing world of shavings floating in the breeze.

jtk

[Jim Matthews]

Since I never use any jig to hold my plane irons or chisels when honing on stones,my edges naturally come out a little convex,and have for many decades. So now it's the Seller's method? I agree it makes the actual edge stronger since it isn't so thin just beyond the cutting edge. As long add I get a razor sharp edge,the result is the same in the end.

That's just the shorthand reference to the companion videos he's published. I never heard him claim to have invented most of the things shown in the class.
He stood a regular apprenticeship, and may have been among the last few doing so in the UK.

I know a good number of people are put off by the way he composes his thoughts, but it's just plain speech - I don't think he has any motive,
other than to teach what has worked so well for him, with limited resources and simple methods.

It's not like he's expensive to follow, or selling a personal line of tools.

FYI - He was a big fan of Aldren Watson's illustrative guide to hand tools, as it was compiled and written by someone with working experience making furniture and musical instruments with them.

[Steve Voigt]

Upfront, let me say that some of us are a bit close-minded and feel uncomfortable about 'new' ways of doing things.


Disagreeing with someone is not necessarily evidence of close-mindedness.



Here's the deal. Don't judge Paul Sellers' methods of work by what he says or writes on his blog (because out-of-context interpretations can happen and Paul is not writing an article there; he needs to be concise, sometimes, omitting the necessary details). Look at his methods and try them before making any learned comments about his techniques.


If people write blogs read by thousands of people, if they express sharply critical opinions of others, and especially if they use the blog to promote their commercial enterprises, then they should expect what they say to be judged.



If anyone can show whatever Paul Sellers has demonstrated in person (he did a lot tradeshows in the past season and you could hold and examine up close what he made) or on Youtube doesn't work, please tell us so. I would be the first one who wants to know.


Just speaking for myself, I didn't say his methods don't work. In fact, many of them do. What I did was to quote a statement about lumber that is patently false, as evidence of why I don't have a very high regard for Mr. Seller's opinions. Funny though, in your comments about flattening long boards with a #4, you pointed out an example of a Sellers technique that is extremely inefficient. Jim said much the same thing.



Paul Sellers, for the record, has never told anyone to change their sharpening approach; he only offers an alternative.


Consider the following blog post:

Going Against the Gods: Myth-Busting
Forget micro bevels and guides and get on to real woodworking.
Guides can be good as training wheels but I believe you should get on with the freehand practice asap.
For three decades now woodworkers have been duped into believing that the micro bevel is superior to a long, convex bevel…

That seems to be a pretty clear-cut case of telling people to change their sharpening methods. The implication is if you're not doing it my way, you're not doing real woodworking (oh, and my sharpening DVD is only $19.99). It's also a classic illustration of The Guru Strategy: present yourself as the lonely, persecuted truth-teller, fighting some vast conspiracy. And that's really my problem with him. I'm not saying his methods don't work, or that he's a bad teacher; neither of those things are true. But like Cosman, he's a guru, and his financial livelihood is tied to convincing you that his methods are better than everyone else's. If he can't convince you of that, why would you buy his stuff?

The OP indicated he was looking for a single set of methods to follow. I'm just trying to indicate why I think it's a bad idea to follow gurus like Mr. Sellers.

[Steve Voigt]

When you eat a chicken, you spit out the bones.

That's pretty much the best line ever.

[george wilson]

No single set of methods is completely un flawed. Not even in the making of multi million dollar space telescopes,or rockets that explode,killing everyone.

Personally,I don't know Mr. Sellers,but I don't agree with some of his teachings either. Sharpening saws POSSIBLY comes to mind. I never make peg teeth. They don't cut as well as normal teeth in either direction. Im not certain if he does that,but I recall seeing oversize teaching aids showing peg teeth. I had a bad night and can't think too well today. Maybe I'm wrong,but there are other things,too.

[Jim Matthews]

To paraphrase Luther Ingrm, "(If admiring your work is wrong), I don't want to be right"...

I think what's most interesting about the current crop of noobs (such as myself) latching onto Paul Seller's tuition is that he's a conservator -
reiterating all the same lessons we should have learned in shop class, had we only paid attention.

I think Williamsburg kept the craft alive in America, but didn't have an effective outreach platform.
YouTube has one, just when Mr. Sellers wants most to be heard.

I would feel differently about his instruction, were he pushing a series of books/marking tools/specialized woodworking appliances/videos.
The fact that he's actually made a living doing this sort of thing, and can effectively write about a teaching method is unusual.

[Tony Wilkins]

As a new woodworker that is trying to learn as much as I can through books, videos, and the dreaded interwebs, I've been trylng to make up my mind about Sellers. He does some things that sound very reasonable and is obviously talented at what he does. My problem in sinking my teeth into his material is his stated opposition to what I've learned from many others.

[Jim Matthews]

If you dig a little, you'll find that he's just repeating all the standard methods that were commonplace before everybody went out to buy power tools.

His focus is on acquiring skills, instead of buying gadgets. There are limitations with both approaches. His way is cheaper, so the price for entry is manageable.
I did the math on The New Yankee workshop, and in the 1990's - there were nearly $100,000 worth of tools in a dedicated space.

I've got neither available to support my hobby.

The woodworking magazines and TV shows are dependent on advertisers that sell that sort of expensive gear that I can't afford.
I still want to make furniture. The approach he's advocating is tailored to those of us that want to make useful things from wood
and either can't (or won't) use so many power tools.

I've got my big bandsaw, circular saw with an edge guide and a drill press.
The rest is slowly finding happy foster homes elsewhere.

Everytime I get jacked up about a serious Jointer/Planer - I remember the nearby Woodworking Co-op where I can "Git-er-DUn" for a ten dollar cover charge.
That, and I can still park two cars in my garage.

It bears repeating that his schools have a full complement of power tools preparing and milling stock for classroom students.
Power tools are tremendous time savers, and can't be matched for the "donkey work" of breaking round trees into flat boards, turning bowls, making veneers, etc.

If you're like most of us and will make a dining table, dresser, a few nightstands and some jewelry boxes in your woodworking years -
amortize the cost of the tools used against the things you've made. I can't justify making a $20,000 hallway table.

I don't think it's opposition so much as turning our attention back toward making rather than buying things.

[george wilson]

Amazing that a co-op exists anywhere. Seems like a woodworking co-op would somehow end up getting sued out of existence after the first accident,the way things are today.

Would you guys believe they had a pretty decent woodworking shop at Eastern State Mental Hospital in Williamsburg? It was auctioned off in the 80's or 90's. I went to the auction,but people were paying crazy prices for their machines(no pun intended:)). I did buy an industrial sewing machine for a friend. They had all kinds of trades equipment. I wonder why it all got sold? That place was NOT a pleasant place to see. Thick doors and small cells.

[john davey]

The Woodcraft Store in Rockville MD has a nice shop that you can join. I am thinking of going that route as I really only have room for a hand tool bench and a few standalone tools. I am thinking I would keep my bandsaw, drill press and lathe. Use the big tools at Woodcraft for everything else. They make you take a class to certify you there and then I believe they change all blades and setup type stuff on the equipment. I am going there tomorrow as they have a bunch of free classes for their grand re opening (they moved). I'll try to post what I see there.

[Pete Spinks]

This is my first post here and I have to say the level of expertise and advise is impressive. I have thoroughly enjoyed reading this thread :)

[Brian Holcombe]

These nitpicks are so very unnecessary for an amateur to be concerned with. I think it is perfectly fine to be schooled under someone else's method and then develop your own once you have established a good base of skills.

From what I have seen in Paul Sellers YouTube videos, he does a great job of explaining his methods.

[Jim Koepke]

This is my first post here and I have to say the level of expertise and advise is impressive. I have thoroughly enjoyed reading this thread :)

Pete,

Welcome to the Creek. Your location is not shown in your profile. Where on this planet do you call home?

Fortunately, this has been one of our less contentious sharpening threads.

For me the KISS (Keep It Simple Sharpening) method works fine. It usually doesn't take long to renew an edge unless there is a deep nick.

jtk

[Cory Waldrop]

I think Mr. Sellers has a goal to teach the broadest number of woodworkers simple skills to start hand tool woodworking. This is the reason he has started and worked at many woodworking schools around the world.

I think most people that follow his methods will be better off starting out and will have a good foundation to start branching off to see what works best for them. His methods aren't the only way to do things, but are a simple and cheap way to do it.

If you watch any of his videos, you will see he usually has a bench chisel or two, a cheap mallet, a vintage saw and hand plane. Of course he has a toolbox full of nice Veritas planes. Who wouldn't want to enjoy using premium tools with as fine craftsmanship as Veritas brings to the table? But in all of his videos and seminars, he brings and uses the vintage tools he recommends. And they can all be purchased for the fraction of the cost online.

See a trend here? Cheap and simple. I applaud his mission in life and I find him easy to understand and emulate. I am certainly a better woodworker by using the simple techniques he teaches and I know I am not the only one.

I say give it a try. If anyone is worried about sharpening on their good chisels, go pick up a cheap one somewhere and try it. Be smart about it, but don't cut yourself short by not at least trying it to see if you like the method.

[Jim Matthews]

I would warn anyone trying this method on for the first time to have some bandaids at the ready.

I picked up a 3/4 chisel sharpened this way last night and didn't realize I had cut myself until
I saw the very red color appearing on my mahogany drawer sides.

I didn't know what a sharp tool was like before honing things this way.

[David Weaver]

gad--what was wrong with the flat bevels on the japanese parers I sent you a couple of years ago? :)

I stropped those with chromium oxide powder just to be a twit.

[Steven Lee, NC]

I bought a set of chisels from harbor freight to practice sharpening with. I had great success with the Sellers method but went back to the worksharp because it was so easy to touchup before each session. For plane blades I have returned to the Sellers method after watching the Schwartz Course/Medium/Fine DVD because he explained and showed the reason for cambering so well and after trying cambering, it made setting up my planes after sharpening so much easier.

[Greg Berlin]

I'm a member of Paul sellers woodworking masterclasses and also rob cosmans hand tool workshop and I love the ability to pick and choose from all of sources out there for what works best for me. I don't think Paul Sellers is close minded in regards to methods, but I do believe that he won't change his ways bevause what he does works well for him and many others. I can officially say that his simple and cheap methods of working are no nonsense and he's just out to prove that you can do great work with just a very small selection of low budget tools. He also goes out of his way to compliment nice tools like veritas. He also makes it clear that he dimensions a lot of his wood by machine but also shows that it can be done with nothing but hand saws and a #4 plane. The thing I love about Paul sellers is that is methods work incredibly well for me as well. He gets away from all the intricacies that people obsess over for no reason. I use his sharpening method and I can't officially tell you whether my chisels' convex angles are 25 degrees or 35 degrees or somewhere in between but I can assure you that using his method is quick, effective, and I can shave hairs off my arm better than a bic razor and the wood certainly doesn't seem to know the difference other than the blade is sharp. I don't know that I could tell whether I was planing wood with a blade with a 25 degree angle or 30 degree angle, convex or concave, or micro bevel or no microbevel. I know the blade is razor sharp, makes very thin and even shavings, and pushes through every type if wood I've thrown at it with ease. What else do you need?? I spend more time honing my skills working the wood than obsessing over the exact angle of my plane blade.

I will also say that Mr Sellers is my very favorite teacher out of who I've seen, but I also enjoy learning from rob cosman and Chris schwarz and roy underhill and all the famous hand tool craftsman out there but if it wasn't for Paul sellers, I think I'd still be buying up power tools and not actually spending time building things. Because of Paul sellers, I can officially say that i love working with hand tools 1000 times better than power tools and I feel more rewarded when the work is finished.

[Hilton Ralphs]

Good review Greg.

Anyone here subscribe to Shannon Rogers' Hand Tool School?

[Derrell W Sloan]

Ditto what Greg said

[Jim Matthews]

gad--what was wrong with the flat bevels on the japanese parers I sent you a couple of years ago? :)
I stropped those with chromium oxide powder just to be a twit.

They're still sharp.
I've never needed to touch these up, the steel is so hard.


I don't use them for things like chopping dovetails.

They might be the best balanced chisels I own, but they're not general purpose tools.

[john davey]

I agree with Greg 100% as well. Paul Sellers is the site I continue to go to. I do Subscribe to Cosman and Shannon Rodgers as well. I find I cannot make it through the 6 months it takes cosman to finish a project. Not that anything he does is boring or bad, just he covers every thing which takes time. Shannon Rodgers site is a little different. He is a little more extreme to hand plane only and I believe his semesters lean towards beginners. I only did the first two so I cannot comment on the later. I did follow through all of his teachings but found I did not really need to do all of the lessons. But I did learn from him :). I would love to take a Schwartz or Underhill class someday. Maybe a Schwartz class at Roy's school. One can dream :)... John.

[Greg Berlin]

I'll also add that everytime I've reached out to Paul sellers with questions he always responds. It might take a day or two, but usually it's a long email back or response. I'm sure cosman and the others do as well. I'm with you on cosmans site. I've learned some nice things from him as well but some projects are like 80 videos long. And a lot if the same thing over and over. But like I said, with the age if the internet and streaming high def hour long videos, you really can watch a bunch of these guys teach and make projects and I personally think Paul does an amazing job at going through the steps showing what's necessary and explaining the why and how of what he's doing. This is just my opinion and I'm not always 100% Paul sellers on absolutely everything I do, but I enjoy his simple and easy methods for doing things and they certainly seem to work very well. I've seen Paul Sellers do a live demo making a mitered spline picture Frame with an inlay with nothing but a hand saw, #4 plane, a plow plane, and a shooting board and I was amazed with what he could do in 30-45 mins. The other guys at the show I think would still be setting up their router to make the plunge cut for the groove and getting their hearing protection and eye protection out all while Paul has the project completed. That demo alone completely changed my view of hand tools all together which made me realize how efficient and accurate hand tools can be. Where every vendor at the show was trying to sell you their new latest and greatest power tool and gimmick, Paul's telling people to go buy a used $15 #4 Stanley plane on ebay and that you don't need a veritas and lie neilsen to do nice work. He never says not to buy their tools, as he owns several veritas tools, but he certainly does not say you need it to do good work. Quite the opposite approach of what woodworking magazines do and every other stand at the woodworking shows. Yeah he's selling books and classes at that show, but what he's selling is really more the message and skills, not a gimmick tool he invented. One other small detail I like is that he loves hand tools because it allows kids to work in your shop with you without all the danger of power tools. So now you can pass down the skills to your 6,7,8 year olds without ever having to have them wear eye and ear protection or without all the extreme danger that power tools offer.

[Jim Matthews]

One other small detail I like is that he loves hand tools because it allows kids to work in your shop with you without all the danger of power tools. So now you can pass down the skills to your 6,7,8 year olds without ever having to have them wear eye and ear protection or without all the extreme danger that power tools offer.

This should not be overlooked.
A lot of us were banished from our Dad's shop when the radial arm saw arrived.

Kids will get knicked and cut with sharp hand tools, but that's so far as the injuries go.

My boys love the stuff they banged together in my shop.
Much of that is down to Mr. Seller's simplest approach.

It's very interesting to me that he's a conservator or very old methods, and is viewed as an iconoclast.
Far from it, from what I've seen.

[lowell holmes]

I took several classes at Homestead Heritage While Paul was the master woodworker there.

His skills are remarkable and is patience is outstanding. He had preteen sons at the time and they were learning woodworking skills.
He was devoted to his children.

He not only is a skilled woodworker, he is an outstanding designer. Google Brazos Rocker to see one of his designs.

[Jack Curtis]

I took several classes at Homestead Heritage While Paul was the master woodworker there....

He not only is a skilled woodworker, he is an outstanding designer. Google Brazos Rocker to see one of his designs.

I've taken 3 classes there, and am very appreciative of the quality of the instruction (Although I have complaints about the prerequisite that a student take several "how to use handtools" courses before taking cool stuff like how to make rocking chairs. I refused to waste that much money, so my A&C rocking chair course was in the form of a tutorial instead, cost a bit more, but still worth it.).

The first time I saw the Brazos Rocker in their shop I jerked to a halt and almost gasped. Never knew mesquite could be so beautiful, much less that it had enough structure to make a big rocker. Exquisite.

This doesn't mean I recommend his beginning courses, but you could learn from less talented woodworkers.

[lowell holmes]

Some of us didn't have the skills to build a rocking chair. We had to take the prerequisite classes in order to function.

I built a Craftsman Rocker and then returned to build the Brazos Rocker. It was in the first Brazos Rocker class they conducted.

The picture is of the chair I made for my grandchildren to be rocked in. I made this chair at home at a later date.I received permission to build it before I started. I wanted to stain the wood to pop the figure, but my daughter and son-in-law preferred the natural finish. All of the shaping and joints were neanderthal.

274190

[Hilton Ralphs]

If you had any reservations about Paul Sellers' Masterclasses, then watch this video (http://paulsellers.com/2013/11/anniversary-year-worth-celebrating/).

[Jack Curtis]

Some of us didn't have the skills to build a rocking chair. We had to take the prerequisite classes in order to function.

I built a Craftsman Rocker and then returned to build the Brazos Rocker. It was in the first Brazos Rocker class they conducted....

No question, plus a lot of us overestimate our skills; but I'd already proven I knew enough, Stan and I had even had sawing speed contests. I won. :)

I'm real jealous of your Brazos, very well done; although there's something about a somewhat darker version, especially in mesquite. What do you mean by "I received permission to build it before I started?"

[Hilton Ralphs]

What do you mean by "I received permission to build it before I started?"

Yeah, I was also wondering about this.

[Kees Heiden]

Hilton, when I click on your link, I get an error.

[Hilton Ralphs]

Hilton, when I click on your link, I get an error.

Thanks for pointing this out, they must of moved the video. I've updated my post to reflect the correct URL.

[lowell holmes]

Paul has a copywrite on the design. They expect you to receive permission if you want to build more than one. They make chairs to sell in their showroom. In years past one or two individuals took the Craftsman chair class and then started making chairs using the Homestead Heritage design and selling the chairs. When you take a chair class you have the right to make one chair.

They don't want you to take their design and build chairs to sell. I ask for permission to build the second chair and since it was for a family member, there was no issue. I just wanted to be sure it was understood that I had permission.

I have built chairs for all of my children except one is under construction at this time. It is my design, inspired by the Blacker House Bedroom Rockers. I had to come up with plans from looking at the pictures on line of the Blacker chairs. After taking the chair classes at Homestead Heritage, I know the basic dimensions for any rocking chair. This new chair is not 100% neander. I would call it 60% neander, requiring an abundance of spokeshave and scraper work. The back splats are mirror image and contain both bow and opposite wind. None of this would be possible for me to do without the knowledge I received in the chair classes.

My original Brazos Rocker is in my living room and is mesquite finished with Deft Danish oil.