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Rick Potter
08-31-2013, 10:54 PM
Since I got solar panels installed, I have been thinking about a plug-in car. I started with the Chevy Spark all electric, thinking I would just get an around town runabout, then I thought maybe I would be better off with the larger Nissan Leaf. After a few unpleasant dealer contacts, I have sworn off Nissan. Now my wife is involved, and wants something more like a 'real car', and wants bells and whistles too.

So, my search is leading me to the Volt, which plugs in, and has a motor also, like some other plug in hybrids, except it goes a lot further on electricity than others. Prices have dropped 5 grand, plus the dealers are discounting, plus $9,000 in rebates in CA.

Back to the question. Does anyone have one, and what do you think of it. Recommend it? Hate it? Please share.

Rick Potter

PS: My adult daughter who lives with us just bought a Hyundai Sonata Hybrid. Really nice car, with a 10 year guarantee, and lifetime on the batteries. It is NOT a plug in, though. I want a plug in because our panels are producing more power than we use, and the excess might as well go in the 'gas tank'.

Mike Henderson
09-01-2013, 2:33 AM
I know a couple of people who own a Volt and they love them. I don't have any first hand experience with them.

The concept is good. You use the battery for some number of miles, and when you run out of battery, the motor cuts in so you never have to worry about being stranded. I think it's really designed as a commuter car - drive to work and maybe back on the battery. If your company has a charging station, you may never pay for gas.

The battery can be charged with a 115V connection because the capacity of the battery is small enough that it can be charged overnight on 115V. But a 230V charger is faster. I met a couple who were driving from San Francisco to LA and they plugged in every night at their motel.

Mike

[Side note: They told me that the motels now ask what kind of car you're driving. If it's an electric they give you a second floor room so it's harder for you to hook up to your car, since it increases their electric bill.]

Jim Koepke
09-01-2013, 4:15 AM
[Side note: They told me that the motels now ask what kind of car you're driving. If it's an electric they give you a second floor room so it's harder for you to hook up to your car, since it increases their electric bill.]

Interesting, how many kilowatts does it take to charge a car?

One would think a motel would want to have charging stations as an incentive to get folks to stay there.

jtk

Brian Elfert
09-01-2013, 9:24 AM
A co-worker has one and really likes it. He can make it to work and back on electric so long as he doesn't need a lot of heat or air conditioning. During the spring and fall he goes more than a month on a tank of gas typically. He said it costs about $40 a month to charge. He is leasing the Volt. The lease is fairly expensive, but he said he was spending $250 a month on gas before so between his former car payment and his former gas bill he is saving money.

I'm not sure one can really justify the Volt versus a similar sized gasoline car based on total cost of ownership.

Art Mann
09-01-2013, 9:35 AM
With the microscopic market penetration of full electric cars and the very limited range of electric cars, I can't see how the average motel could come out to the good by installing expensive charging stations. I believe the Nissan Leaf has about the longest range of any affordable all electric and it is something like 90 miles. I would guess that most people who are traveling far enough to need a motel would not limit themselves to a vehicle that will only go 90 miles a day. I would love to have an all electric, or even a Chevy Volt with a 30 mile electric range, just for driving around town. I just can't afford to own a car just for that purpose. I hope they will eventually come down in price enough so I can afford one. Right now, the price is substantially lower due to heavy government subsidy. That won't last forever.

eugene thomas
09-01-2013, 9:42 AM
The battery coast would have me nervas. I have 2007 civic with 150000 miles and am seeing price for battery pack of $3000. But hey when bought car new dealer assured me he can get me good deal on battery when time comes.....

Mike Henderson
09-01-2013, 9:50 AM
Interesting, how many kilowatts does it take to charge a car?

One would think a motel would want to have charging stations as an incentive to get folks to stay there.

jtk
You're probably right. They may have just gotten a second floor room and thought the charging was why they were given it. It was just something they told me and I didn't think it through.

Mike

Phil Thien
09-01-2013, 10:00 AM
You're probably right. They may have just gotten a second floor room and thought the charging was why they were given it. It was just something they told me.

Mike

If they stay in a 1st floor room, do they run a cord from the room out to the car? I'd think there would be a tripping hazard, and also you'd have to leave the door slightly open all night.

Jerry Thompson
09-01-2013, 10:42 AM
Electric? Your still burning coal/oil.

Art Mann
09-01-2013, 10:57 AM
Electric? Your still burning coal/oil.

That is true but the fact is that it is currently cheaper to buy the electricity to power a car a certain distance than it is to buy gasoline to go that same distance. If you are just talking about preserving the environment, then you make a good point. There is also the problem in coming years of disposal or reprocessing of the huge quantity of expended batteries that contain lots of long lasting toxic waste.

David Weaver
09-01-2013, 11:59 AM
The battery coast would have me nervas. I have 2007 civic with 150000 miles and am seeing price for battery pack of $3000. But hey when bought car new dealer assured me he can get me good deal on battery when time comes.....

I can't speak for the volts, but the battery pack replacements for the prius have not been a frequent occurrence, especially compared to what people feared they'd be. They are also covered by a fairly long and non-prorated warranty.

The volts batteries should last a long time according to their original literature, the system was to keep the battery between 25 and 90% of full charge, which would eliminate most of what damages batteries (full discharge and overcharge).

I know several people with a prius and hybrid fords (in my case a mercury mariner hybrid) and none of them have ever done anything with the batteries.

On the other hand, I have owned two volkswagen jetta gas powered cars and they have required money hand over fist for maintenance, and neither of them have had more than 75000 miles. I would've been MUCH better off with a prius in both cases.

Can't speak directly for the volt, but if there is a problem with battery packs going kaput, it will be publicized because there is always someone with a business interest in publicizing negative news about a competing technology. Just as GM has nothing good to say about tesla, as the model S quickly moved into a position outselling the volt less than a year after it was introduced. And at a much higher price and without gasoline powered range.

Brian Elfert
09-01-2013, 12:02 PM
Electric? Your still burning coal/oil.

Electricity can be produced from sources that are not fossil fuels like wind, nuclear, or solar. Nuclear has its own issues, but it isn't fossil fuel. There really isn't a viable way to power a car without using fossil fuels except maybe electricity.

Transportation in the first world consumes vast amount of resources both to power the vehicles and to make and service the vehicles.

Michael Dedon
09-01-2013, 12:45 PM
MY wife and I have one. Bought it Oct 31 last year. She drives it 10 miles round trip each day, city traffic. Costs almost exactly $1/day to charge. We put a meter in the circuit to measure it. She's put five gallons of gas in it since we've had it. That cost $20. Do the math. She loves it. My opinion: It costs too much off the lot. Road noise is horrible. Rear and side visibility is terrible. Mileage listed on the sticker is wrong. She gets much better and she has taken trips of more than 75 miles where it needed the generator to make the round trip. You make your own choice but I lobbied hard for the Prius since I retired from Toyota but I'm impressed with the Volt.

Brian Elfert
09-01-2013, 1:00 PM
Michael, you're complaining that a vehicle gets better mileage than the sticker? I would be happy if I got better than the sticker says.

Mike Henderson
09-01-2013, 1:07 PM
Electric? You're still burning coal/oil.
One advantage of electric cars is that the pollution is moved from the centers of population - if oil and coal is used for generation. This is a positive impact for the people living in the population center. That's why California had mandated a certain percentage of car sales to be electric.

And when someone buys an electric car, they often have a solar installation on their house. While they may not charge during the day, they put clean energy into the grid during the day and take dirty electricity at night. For the owner, this often means that they can drive cost free for fuel.

While this doesn't apply to carbon dioxide emissions, other kinds of emissions can be better controlled when the generation of the emissions is in one place. That is, a power plant has scrubbers that remove a significant amount of the smog forming emissions.

Finally, the delivery of fuel to a power plant is less emission intensive than the delivery of fuel to service stations, who then deliver it to the final user.

Mike

Rick Potter
09-01-2013, 1:32 PM
Thanks Michael.

Road noise. Is it because the car is noisy, or is it because the car is quiet and you hear more tire noise etc. that the motor normally covers up?
Visibility: Is it worse than other cars of it's type? I want the back up camera setup.

Back on point:

Coal/Oil? In my case, my solar panels produce more electricity than I use.

Electricity? See above. I expect my charging will be almost covered by the panels.

Battery? The batteries, charging system and all electric drive components are covered for 8 years/100,000 miles.

Cost? Still high, but they dropped the price 5K on '14 models and rebated the same on '13 models, plus 4K dealer discount, plus CA incentives. This brings the base '13 model to as little as
22K this weekend, according to the local ads. Of course my wife wants a loaded one. If we get one, it will be the end of the year when the '14's are being discounted.

One concern I have is about buying Vs leasing. I suspect there will be big improvements in electric cars within a few years. If I lease it for three years, it will allow me to return it for a new and improved model, but there may not be any incentives available, and it will cost much more. On the other hand, if I buy it, and there are no incentives, in three years, it might be better to keep it. Its a conundrum.

Anyone else have one? All info appreciated.

Rick Potter

Brian Elfert
09-01-2013, 1:51 PM
Leases usually have a fixed residual cost that you can buy the car for at the end instead of turning the car in. If at the end of three years it makes sense to keep the car you can do that.

Michael Dedon
09-01-2013, 2:46 PM
Rick, It's road noise/tire noise, windows up or down. Just generally not a sealed up and quiet ride. Rear camera is fine but it's at the bottom of the bumper and won't cover looking over your shoulder or trying to see over the rear wing at something like "Is the garage door all the way up?". We also have solar panels w/battery backup/etc. The Volt is a heckuva car. I was blown away at the actual everyday cost of driving it. Her work commute is ten miles but she's running around every weekend with her sister. And she's not coasting between every traffic light either. It really is enjoyable to drive. Drive one for some distance, city and highway before purchase. You might not have the same objections or they may not mean as much to you. Actually, Would we buy one again? Yes.

Jerry Thompson
09-01-2013, 6:05 PM
It is not about the price of gasoline. First of all if electric cars are so great why are our tax dollars needed to off set the total purchase price? What about depreciation? What about the end life of the batteries? It costs many dollars to replace them. Very little of our electric power comes from solar or wind. Solar only works a few hours a day and clouds and rain can cancel that out. Wind is a fickle friend @ best. The cost per kilowatt hour is out of sight. Nukes are aging and not being replaced. We are left with hydro, coal, gas and oil for the most part. Those will have to suffice until another source(s) is found. There would be precious few electric autos if they were not subsidized. If all the electric cars were on the road that greenies want we would not have the generating capacity to run them.

Jim Matthews
09-01-2013, 6:19 PM
I believe the OP plans to use his PV panels to "charge" the battery.

His net consumption of Coal fired electricity will drop near zero.
For those plugging in an EV without a panel on the roof, their vehicle will become "cleaner" as the supplier converts the combustion plant.

Petrol or even Biofuel powered engines will never become cleaner than the day they leave the factory.

Jim Matthews
09-01-2013, 6:26 PM
This is classic reluctance to adopt technologies that won't pay off in the complainant's lifetime.

We've subsidized plenty in this country before, like Apple for instance. We bailed out traditional car makers that can't maintain profit margins, why not invest in the next transportation mode?
Presuming that this coming Century will roll out like the last betrays navigating by watching the rear view mirror - the low hanging fruit is already taken.

"There would be precious few electric autos if they were not subsidized. If all the electric cars were on the road that greenies want we would not have the generating capacity to run them."

Perhaps you can put facts, figures and citations behind such a blanket statement.
Do tell.

Greg Peterson
09-01-2013, 7:17 PM
The amount of fossil fuel expended to move a electric motor x miles is less than that expended for the internal combustion engine. Electric motors are vastly more efficient than internal combustion engines. The internal combustion engine is terribly inefficient.

There are numerous ways of generating electricity to charge a EV, whereas internal combustion engines require a single source.

Germany has demonstrated that solar does work by building a vast network of solar arrays on residential housing. By day, power is being supplied to the grid, when demand is the highest. The government subsidized the solar array program partly because it's less expensive to increase power capacity via a distributed solar array network than it is to build another power production plant. And it is more sustainable.

ROI should not always be measured months or a few years. We need to start thinking in terms of generational ROI.

Know a couple of folks that drive Prius's. They love them. One couple has over 150,000 on theirs, never had any problems with it. That's a whole lot of gas stations they have passed.

Mike Henderson
09-01-2013, 8:16 PM
If all the electric cars were on the road that greenies want we would not have the generating capacity to run them.
If you look at the load on the grid, you'll see that the demand is highest from about 10 am to maybe 6 to 8pm. After about 11pm the demand is significantly lower for several reasons:
1. Companies are shut down or on reduced workload. Certainly, most of the white collar workers are gone.
2. Most people are sleeping and not using lights, computers, etc.
3. The air is cooling down so the demand for electricity for air conditioners is lower (they don't need to run so much).

That period of about 10pm to 6am is low load for the power companies but they still have to keep the generators operating. If load can be added to the night time, it will allow the power company to operate more efficiently, so they can afford to sell the electricity for a lower rate.

I don't know how many cars you're alluding to, but we can add a lot of electric vehicles before we'll have any significant issues with the power grid.

Also, as some else commented on, distributed generation (solar on lots of rooftops) is ideal for meeting the peak demands during hot weather. The maximum energy is generated during the time of peak demand, and it's generated where the electricity is consumed so we don't need to upgrade the grid.

Solar does not mean we do away with fossil fuels because we still need a baseline of power on the system. But it can keep us from having to build more fossil fuel generating stations even as demand (especially peak demand) increases.

Mike

Jim Matthews
09-01-2013, 8:28 PM
ROI should not always be measured months or a few years. We need to start thinking in terms of generational ROI.

Around here, we can't get steady school funding or money for roads.
I see this as a tough sell to anyone near retirement age.

You've touched on the essential value in hybrid and electric vehicles - low maintenance costs.
Major makers will get behind this product line when they can get a piece of the charging infrastructure build out.

It's no accident that Tesla is also nurturing Solar City, to establish this model.

Kevin W Johnson
09-01-2013, 8:39 PM
If you look at the load on the grid, you'll see that the demand is highest from about 10 am to maybe 6 to 8pm. After about 11pm the demand is significantly lower for several reasons:
1. Companies are shut down or on reduced workload. Certainly, most of the white collar workers are gone.
2. Most people are sleeping and not using lights, computers, etc.
3. The air is cooling down so the demand for electricity for air conditioners is lower (they don't need to run so much).

That period of about 10pm to 6am is low load for the power companies but they still have to keep the generators operating. If load can be added to the night time, it will allow the power company to operate more efficiently, so they can afford to sell the electricity for a lower rate.

I don't know how many cars you're alluding to, but we can add a lot of electric vehicles before we'll have any significant issues with the power grid.

Also, as some else commented on, distributed generation (solar on lots of rooftops) is ideal for meeting the peak demands during hot weather. The maximum energy is generated during the time of peak demand, and it's generated where the electricity is consumed so we don't need to upgrade the grid.

Solar does not mean we do away with fossil fuels because we still need a baseline of power on the system. But it can keep us from having to build more fossil fuel generating stations even as demand (especially peak demand) increases.

Mike

Only so if most everyone can get to work and back home before needing a charge, however I seriously doubt that will be the case. Most will need to charge while at work, to make the journey home.

David Weaver
09-01-2013, 8:53 PM
Where I work (urban area) there is already access to electricity in some places, and since this is natural gas central right now, we have entire groups of fleet vehicles running on propane here (garbage trucks and taxis) and saving a lot of money. Propane is probably cheaper here than it is almost anywhere else because it's a byproduct of the natural gas industry.

Anyway, what I'm getting to is that every large building downtown here where people park will have electric access for a fee, and they may already (I ride the bus). I've seen volts here and tesla S examples around, too.

Greg Peterson
09-01-2013, 10:01 PM
Only so if most everyone can get to work and back home before needing a charge, however I seriously doubt that will be the case. Most will need to charge while at work, to make the journey home.

The US Census Bureau reports the average commute time is 25 minutes. This fits well within the Leaf's range. The Volt and Prius, being hybrids, would not be impacted either way.

Charging stations are popping up all over the place. Times they are a changing. You will certainly be able to still buy a traditional automobile for many years to come. However, the single driver commuters in one ton 4x4 pickups have seen their best days. Between Google cars and EV's, options that make better sense are coming on line.

Matt Meiser
09-01-2013, 10:10 PM
Yeah but a some of us really skew that with our 0 mile commutes. :D

Jerry Thompson
09-01-2013, 10:55 PM
There still has to be conventional power generation to back up high/low wind days and cloudy raining ones. These units don't just start up buzz bang. Start up takes a good while. I will still take more of what we have until other methods become financially viable. I do not have validation about all cars being electric would swamp the power system as I do not recall where I read it. Solar and wind take vast amounts of land area. Why do the proponents of wind address the thousands of birds killed by wind turbines?

Greg Peterson
09-02-2013, 12:41 AM
Jerry - Germany produces almost five times the amount of solar energy as the US. How and why is this possible, given that the amount of sunlight they receive is lower than almost any state in America? There are many variables, but the bottom line is the Germans are committed to creating a sustainable energy platform.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2013/02/08/germany-has-five-times-as-much-solar-power-as-the-u-s-despite-alaska-levels-of-sun/


The cost of solar will continue to decline and the cost of fossil fuels will continue to increase. Oil used to be cheap, plentiful and easy to retrieve. All the easily accessed oil has been consumed. And with the growing economies of China and India weighing in on the international oil market, we are unlikely to see oil prices go down. Energy in the 20th century was very, very inexpensive. It's a new world now, and the old rules are phasing out.

Mike Henderson
09-02-2013, 1:26 AM
Only so if most everyone can get to work and back home before needing a charge, however I seriously doubt that will be the case. Most will need to charge while at work, to make the journey home.
Yep, and that's the big advantage of the Volt. You get a decent range on the batteries but if you need to go further, you have a gasoline engine to provide the range. When you average it out, it's a heck of an MPG with no range anxiety. And the engine on the Volt is a very efficient engine. It can run at a constant RPM and all it does is provide power for the motors. If I recall correctly, it's a 56kW generator.

The gasoline engine does not really charge the battery. It just provides sufficient charge for you to keep driving. So even it you use the engine to get home, you'll still need to charge the battery when you get home, so they'll still draw power from the grid at night as I described earlier.

If you can charge at work, you can take advantage of the solar generation that's available because you're charging during the day. But it would be better, from a system point of view, if the car you buy can get you to work and back without having to have an interim charge. Unless you have a really long commute, those cars are available.

Mike

Jeff Nicol
09-02-2013, 10:24 PM
Jerry - Germany produces almost five times the amount of solar energy as the US. How and why is this possible, given that the amount of sunlight they receive is lower than almost any state in America? There are many variables, but the bottom line is the Germans are committed to creating a sustainable energy platform.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2013/02/08/germany-has-five-times-as-much-solar-power-as-the-u-s-despite-alaska-levels-of-sun/


The cost of solar will continue to decline and the cost of fossil fuels will continue to increase. Oil used to be cheap, plentiful and easy to retrieve. All the easily accessed oil has been consumed. And with the growing economies of China and India weighing in on the international oil market, we are unlikely to see oil prices go down. Energy in the 20th century was very, very inexpensive. It's a new world now, and the old rules are phasing out.
THe first thing that needs to be addressed in the statement that "Germany produces 5 times as much solar energy than the US" the stats and facts will help to explain that. First of all the US is a little over 28 times larger in land mass at 9629091 sq km compared to Germany at 357021 sq km. Then the population density of Germany is 230 people per sq km compared to the US at 31 people per sq km. This means that there are many more homes and buildings in close proximity to one another which then can translate to the ability to connect many small solar systems together to create a larger output of power. This also means that the infastructure to supply the people is smaller and thus cheaper to maintain and repair.

With those facts stated the US produces about 2% of its electrical power from renewable sources which then makes Germany producing about 10% of their power from all renewables. This is still a far cry from a majority of their electricity from solar or the others. Now with just solar it is pretty small and with the ineffieciency of todays solar panels (Around 20%) and the fact that the minute they are put into service they start to deteriorate and the % drops with a lifespan of maybe 15-20 years. This of course may get better, but not right now and so far I have seen no great strides in better duty cycle or lifespan for solar cells.

Now for the bigger picture in "TRUE" electric vehicles, if it has any type of internal combustion engine working in tandem with the electric motor it is a "HYBRID" so this means that the Volt is a hybrid and not an electric car. Then I would say that when we are allowed to put hydrogen fuel cells in with greater efficiency to produce the elecrical power for the elec motor, that will be the best hybrids available. On this note, Chevy had one ready for production, but for some reason did not continue with the project, and why is this you ask? Well it always comes back to political oversight and the desire to push wind, solar, bio and any other source being pushed by the "Green Coalition", which the Hydrogen fuel cell for some reason was kicked to the curb, I guess someone knows?? But the problem with anything that the Federal Government sticks their nose into becomes nothing but a drain on the peoples pocket books by covering $1000's of the cost of the electric cars so that someone will buy them. The reason for this is that not many really want them because they can't pull a boat, a trailer or haul horses, so not very desireable for the majority of Americans who love to travel the free and wonderful countryside of this great nation.

What it all boils down to is that there is not an oil shortage, there is not a threat of man made global temperature change by using carbon based fuels. The problem is the desire for some to control others and to decide what is and what is not. Then until any other type of fuel other than carbon based is able to replace them at the same % we use now, there is no reason to force any of these "TRIAL" methods and machines on the people. I believe that research, development and trial and error are going to achieve great things some day soon. But first those who want to control how things are done need to get out of the way and let those who dream and use critical thinking, to spread their wings and design and build the next big thing!


There is a time and place for everything, so let time and desire determine when great changes occur!


A thinker, a dreamer, a designer and a builder who will share the next great thing with the world. (Mostly a dreamer!)

Jim Falsetti
09-02-2013, 10:32 PM
Rick - my business partner has a Volt. He has about 60,000 miles on it. We drive mostly in the northeastern US, and often use the Volt. He has had a couple of flat tires, and there is no spare, but Chevy has been more than helpful. I know they are closely following his car and he cooperates in filling in the surveys and answering other questions on the car's performance. His is one of the first Volts sold in the area.

His Volt is comfortable and reasonably quiet. Cold winter weather restricts the electric range. The gasoline engine seems to work just fine. He has had no major repairs.

For CA, I think there are usage-tiered electrical rates. So as long as charging the car does not kick you into a higher usage and higher price electrical tier, it should be ok.

I was also thinking your solar energy panels should be grid-tied, and you get paid for excess electricity generation. Is this the case, and if so does your utility pay you a reasonable rate? Or is that utility payment small enough(on a $/kWh basis) that the electricity used by the Volt would be relatively inexpensive?

One more thing I should say. He did not make the decision to buy a Volt solely based on economics, but because he liked the idea of a mostly electric car.

Jim

Mike Henderson
09-02-2013, 11:04 PM
Then I would say that when we are allowed to put hydrogen fuel cells in with greater efficiency to produce the electrical power for the elec motor, that will be the best hybrids available.

Hydrogen is not a very good fuel. Let's look at the efficiencies of hydrogen.

You can produce hydrogen by steam reforming of petroleum but then you're still using petroleum and you would be better to use the petroleum in a gasoline or diesel engine directly, without going through the conversion to hydrogen.

So let's say you're going to generate hydrogen from electrolysis of water. You use electricity to do that conversion, and since you get both hydrogen and oxygen from the electrolysis, the energy content of the hydrogen produced is only about 65 to 70% of the input energy.

Then, you have to transport the hydrogen to the "service stations". This takes maybe 10% of the energy of the hydrogen transported.

Then, you put the hydrogen into a fuel cell to produce electricity. The energy content of the electricity output from the fuel cell is perhaps 50% (source: US dept of energy) of the energy in the hydrogen you put into the fuel cell.

So let's look at the hydrogen energy equation, assuming we start with 100 units of energy in the original electricity.

After producing the hydrogen, we have 65 to 70 units left (let's say 70).

After transporting it, we have 63 units left.

After we put it through the fuel cell, we have about 32 units of energy left of the original 100 units.

Now, let's look at a car with a battery, and start with the same 100 units of energy.

To transport the electricity to your house, we lose perhaps 5% , leaving us with 95 units of electrical energy.

We have to charge a battery, and the battery can return perhaps 90% of the energy put into it, leaving us with about 85 units of energy.

So, even if we ignore all the other problems of hydrogen, such as building the infrastructure to deliver it, and the danger of hydrogen (you can't see the flame when it's burning), battery operated cars are significantly more efficient than hydrogen powered cars.

Mike

Mike Henderson
09-02-2013, 11:11 PM
The reason for this is that not many really want them because they can't pull a boat, a trailer or haul horses, so not very desirable for the majority of Americans who love to travel the free and wonderful countryside of this great nation.
All vehicles do not have "to pull a boat, a trailer, or haul horses". If every vehicle had to do this, the Fiat 500 (to name one car) would never sell a single unit.

Many people want a vehicle which they can use to go to work, and a vehicle that is very inexpensive to operate. Electric vehicles fill that niche very well.

Mike

Mike Henderson
09-02-2013, 11:23 PM
With those facts stated the US produces about 2% of its electrical power from renewable sources which then makes Germany producing about 10% of their power from all renewables.

You're confused about your mathematics. The population of the US is about 300 million and the population of Germany is about 80 million (2011). I think it's reasonable to assume that the demand for electricity follows the population. So let's assume that the US uses 300 units of electricity, and Germany uses 80 units. 2% of the US power is 6 units of renewable energy. The statement was that Germany produces 5 times what the US produces in renewable energy, so Germany produces 30 units of renewable energy, which is 37% of their total electricity demand. That's a significant amount of renewable energy in the country.

Mike

[Also, the physical size of the country is somewhat immaterial to solar generation. Rooftop solar power is not transported across the country, it's used very close to where it's generated, both in the US and in Germany.]

Rick Potter
09-03-2013, 3:56 AM
Thanks Jim,

Nice to get some more feedback.

Yes, my system goes right to the grid...no batteries. Yes, the local utility (Edison co) has tiered rates. Without looking it up, the low tier is around 13 cents. If I produce more power than I use (figured annually) they pay me back only 3 cents, so obviously I want to use all I produce. They regulate the size system you can install, because they don't want people installing solar to make money. By happenstance, my system is based on last years total usage, which was exceptionally high because of a house full of relatives living here. This means I have a larger system than I would normally be allowed to have, which follows that I produce more juice than I use right now. That's why I was thinking of a plug in car.

Edison also has a plan that gives you low price juice for electric cars, assuming you sign up for it and charge between 6PM and morning. That cuts the bill even more. My system is designed for about 98% of the amount we used when three families lived here last year. We have a projected annual bill of under $200. Right now I am air conditioning the shop, as well as running the house air conditioner(s) more than usual.

In just a few months, I have a carbon offset of 124 trees, whatever that means.

Rick Potter

David Weaver
09-03-2013, 6:53 AM
In just a few months, I have a carbon offset of 124 trees, whatever that means.

Rick Potter

I think it means that you can go and cut down 124 trees and make things out of them :)

Matt Meiser
09-03-2013, 7:06 AM
This means that there are many more homes and buildings in close proximity to one another which then can translate to the ability to connect many small solar systems together to create a larger output of power. This also means that the infastructure to supply the people is smaller and thus cheaper to maintain and repair.

Uh...last I checked we already have that infrastructure and we're already paying the maintenance costs.

Chris Parks
09-03-2013, 7:18 AM
Now for the bigger picture in "TRUE" electric vehicles, if it has any type of internal combustion engine working in tandem with the electric motor it is a "HYBRID" so this means that the Volt is a hybrid and not an electric car.

I agree it is a hybrid. That does not prevent anyone from USING it as a purely electric car. Witness the posts above.

David Weaver
09-03-2013, 7:58 AM
Uh...last I checked we already have that infrastructure and we're already paying the maintenance costs.

Some of the commentary from power companies lately is a fear on their part that the grid could be made up of small grid-tied generators (solar, whatever) and that the need for them and their ability to generate profits without having a lot of generation will be minimal to none. I'm not sure if that's posturing to get regulatory changes, but they specifically gripe about solar customers in net metering states, because they feel that those customers should have to pay something for the distribution system.

PA is the biggest energy exporting state, there are generation stations just everywhere here, but our potential for solar and wind is limited in most parts of the state. Anyway, a lot of the energy companies in PA spun off all or part of their generation years ago because they thought the money would be in distribution. With the cheap natural gas here coming out of every orifice that can be hydrofracked, the situation is the other way around. It'll be interesting to see how the distribution situation works itself out, but as of right now, I won't complain about anything that keeps distribution costs down and limits control over it.

David Weaver
09-03-2013, 8:10 AM
I agree it is a hybrid. That does not prevent anyone from USING it as a purely electric car. Witness the posts above.

The description above about 4 or 5 gallons since october is pretty convincing. I think that qualifies as deminimis, and in the balance of things, the number of people who would buy a Plug-in hybrid vs. electric only more than outweighs the fact that it will use some gas. I could drive the thing for a year around here and only have to use the gasoline engine 4 times. Work is only 6 miles away, and it is an energy intensive 6 miles for me (through hills with stop lights at the bottoms) - it would be ideal for electric or hybrid electric.

Steve Meliza
09-03-2013, 10:18 AM
In my opinion the Volt is currently the best option out there for people looking to go electric but not be tied to the range of the battery pack alone. Around here our electricity is mostly hydro and I'm ok with that so I don't mind seeing more electric cars. I'm not familiar with what batteries are being used in which vehicles, but if they are using a Lithium-ion based battery like the Volt then they are most likely not toxic. The current disposal method for Lithium-Polymer batteries in most ares is to fully discharge the battery then toss it in your household trash.

My daily commute is 24 miles round-trip so electric is certainly a viable option, once Volvo starts making one. In the mean time I consume a gallon a day.

Frederick Skelly
09-03-2013, 9:52 PM
Rick,
Not sure how this plays with the discounts you already mentioned. But about 2 weeks ago Chevy announced they are cutting the Volt's price by $7500 to make it more competitive. And you STILL get the $7500 federal tax break.

I know two people who have Volt's and love them.

Fred

Val Kosmider
09-04-2013, 2:48 PM
My neighbor is a Chevy dealer...their VOLT went around the dealership and everyone got to use it for a couple of days. When he brought it home--just enough juice to get it home--about 40 miles. He plugged it into a 115 volt outlet overnight and by morning it was fully charged--but it took all night. Decent looking car. Rides well. Expensive for what you get. Their dealership, pretty large, middle America market, has maybe sold a couple. Their technicians are 'trained' but I don't think he is looking forward to the day when the car comes back in with a problem. The cars seem to be selling to the upper class for a toy, or the uber green who want to do the right thing. Economically, they don't make much sense. Otherwise, it is a decent car.

Harry Hagan
09-04-2013, 3:41 PM
It’s been estimated that government subsidies, depending on how many government subsidy milestones are realized; could total as much as $256,824 per Volt if battery manufactures are included.

Do I own a Volt?

Unfortunately I own a little bit of every one produced.

I pay taxes.

Rick Potter
09-04-2013, 3:46 PM
Interesting....they had the usual labor day car sales last weekend. My local Chevy dealer started with 10 Volts, and sold them all. Hopefully, the year end sales will be as good, as that is when I will probably be ready.

Rick Potter

Art Mann
09-04-2013, 8:25 PM
It’s been estimated that government subsidies, depending on how many government subsidy milestones are realized; could total as much as $256,824 per Volt if battery manufactures are included.

Do I own a Volt?

Unfortunately I own a little bit of every one produced.

I pay taxes.

Electric cars in general will not be successful until they sell on their own merits without massive government subsidies. At the beginning of the 20th century, there was a great deal of skepticism about automobiles with internal combustion engines. The technology was so compelling that in a matter of a few years, horses and mules were abandoned and the automobile was universally accepted. The government had nothing positive to do with the change. When electric car technology becomes compelling to the extent the internal combustion engines was, then people will embrace it and government subsidies will have nothing to do with it.

Greg Peterson
09-05-2013, 10:05 AM
It’s been estimated that government subsidies, depending on how many government subsidy milestones are realized; could total as much as $256,824 per Volt if battery manufactures are included.



I would be interested in seeing your source material suggesting these enormous hidden costs.

For the average driver, the hybrids, and even the pure electric car like the Leaf, are a very good solution for commuting purposes. Fossil fuels don't have hidden costs, we mostly chose to defer their expense to some point in the future, preferably when we are no longer around.

Matt Meiser
09-05-2013, 10:43 AM
I would imagine that's related to investment in companies like A123 (now B456--really!) systems that went bankrupt.

Jim Becker
09-05-2013, 11:40 AM
I've heard nice things about them and they are a very nice looking car, too.

Brett Robson
09-06-2013, 12:40 AM
I would imagine that's related to investment in companies like A123 (now B456--really!) systems that went bankrupt.

Yup. A123 was supposed to make the Volt's batteries but went bankrupt after receiving $132 million in federal grant money.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/17/business/battery-maker-a123-systems-files-for-bankruptcy.html

Ken Fitzgerald
09-06-2013, 1:20 AM
You're probably right. They may have just gotten a second floor room and thought the charging was why they were given it. It was just something they told me and I didn't think it through.

Mike

Mike,

Until I broke my back, my wife, I and our youngest son skied a lot for about 10 years. I literally scheduled as much of my necessary late night work Monday - Thursday. Friday night I spent tuning and waxing skies and early Saturday morning we headed out. It was all consuming. A lot of the motels we stayed in had 110vac outlets at the parking spaces so people could plug in their electric engine heaters. Even the Super 8's had them. (Hey....when you are skiing all you need is a hot shower and comfortable bed!:o) It was considered the cost of doing winter business.

Ken Fitzgerald
09-06-2013, 2:07 AM
Back to the Volt.

Personally if you live in a flat metropolitan area it may work well for you.

In as much as the down town area of my community is 800' in elevation lower than the area where the majority of the residents live, there are some 8% and 13% grades getting to the residential area, I have some sincere doubts about how well they would work here. Then to get out of the valley, you have to climb 2000' in elevation any direction you go.

Now some may say it's my age but I would say not so.

Since 1969 I worked in with some of the most sophisticated electronics in the world. First radars used for landing air craft in bad weather, all the communications gear and navigational aides used in joint FAA/Navy air traffic control centers....then equipment used on nuclear powered submarines....then 1976 on CT scanners...then in1986 I began working on MR scanners...ultrasound equipment, nuclear medicine cameras, x-ray equipment.

3 years ago I awoke deaf, for safety reasons I was forced to retire. I waited 10 months after I was approved for a cochlear implant for a US company's product to regain FDA approval and return to the US market after a self-imposed recall. Their technology is years ahead of their competition IMO. The implant I use to hear is using about 28% of it's potential capabilities and all that is required to use the unused portion is software developed, obtain FDA approval, download it to the sound processor that is worn externally and looks like a hearing aid. I could have been implanted with a competitor's CI that uses 18 year old technology. I chose to wait for the newer technology.....an additional 10 months of deafness for the new technology.

I am open to new inventions and technology.....and yet, I won't be buying an electric car for a few years.

Tomorrow, my wife and I are buying a new washer that uses the top loading conventional technology and an electric drier. Too many reports of lack luster washing results from the HE top loading washers to justify buying into the newer technology and a front loader won't work in our utility room .

Why be cautious about buying new technology in consumer products? I bought a Sony Beta VCR for my wife. When it came out I bought the top of the line......paid over $900.....and 3-4 years later it was an expensive boat anchor.

I never want to be the first or the last to buy technology.

IMO it is too early in the development stage of the electric car to expect them to work in all driving conditions. I don't think an 4WD SUV is needed by every person. Likewise, I don't think an electric cars or hybrids are the answer for every person in all conditions. 4WD SUVs are handy for folks who live in a mountainous area....and a Volt might work well for those who live in a flat metropolitan area.

David Weaver
09-06-2013, 7:55 AM
Michio Kaku had an interesting spot on batteries (which relates directly the car, and he uses that for the discussion).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PewMgx753G0

I have no idea how long it would take us to nanomanufacture the battery technology he's talking about, but I didn't hear lithium or any other expensive elements, just the need to manufacture extremely slim plates.

(Ken, his viewpoint goes with yours - it'll be ready sometime, but it can't match gasoline efficiency in use - at least not now.)

Rick Potter
09-08-2013, 3:32 AM
Here is why I am thinking of the Volt......I just got my electric bill for July31 to August 29th. I used a total of 927 KWh for the month. My solar panels produced 1097 Kwh, leaving me with an overage of 170 KWh.

If you will remember I said my system was based on an extremely high usage year, when my son and his family moved into my workshop for six months, in addition to our house having two families already. The daily usage in August of '11, before they moved in, was 65.66 kwh. In August of '12, when they were here and we cooled the shop continuously, the daily use rose to 117.03 KWh (a very expensive month). This year we have the solar panels, we are back to the normal two families, but cooling the shop about 10 days working on the kitchen, the daily usage was -5.86 KWh.

Charging a Volt from drained to full takes 12-13Kwh. Most months I will overproduce that much each day (it has been especially hot the last month, 12 degrees above normal). And even if I don't, I will always be on the bottom baseline tier of $.13, which means it would cost a max of $1.69 per day to get 35-40 miles of travel. Driving my Jeep costs me almost $9 to drive that far. Project that for a month and you have 1050 miles costing either $50 for the Volt Vs $259 for the jeep. Now, I am not going to drive that much each day, and more some days, but remember, these figures are the max the Volt can cost for this much mileage because many of my days will be completely powered by solar. The figures for the Jeep are actual figures that it will cost. At the current price of gas here, I can drive the Jeep about 4 miles per dollar of gas.

That is why I am thinking of the Volt. I am getting a new car anyway, and probably going to sell the Jeep. Getting too old to bounce around in the rocks.

Rick Potter

Michael Dedon
09-08-2013, 11:11 AM
Rick, Go way back in this thread. I'm the guy that actually owns one and what you say here is correct thinking from a fuel standpoint. My wife used the same logic when we bought ours and it has proven to be true. We don't have enough solar capacity to fully pay for the residence and the car but it does offset some of it. Our reckoning and tracking of what it costs us for fuel (electric and gasoline) comes to about 1$/day for 400 miles/month. I can see those numbers being close to the same for you with the exception your electrical costs are fully covered by your solar capacity. As an afterthought, we plugged out 110v charger into a garage outlet but should have run a dedicated circuit. The charger and cable gets warm during charging. Maybe a 220v charger wouldn't have that problem but that's an extra cost item. Good luck with your car.

Rick Potter
09-08-2013, 2:09 PM
Thanks Michael,

I have a 20 amp 110V plug right where it needs to be. If I do it, I figure I would try that out before worrying about a 220V station. If needed it will be a snap to put it, as the panel is on the garage.

You say yours gets warm. Is it a 15 or a 20 amp circuit? I do see where you can adjust the car to use different amperages to charge, depending on your circuit capacity.

Rick Potter

Michael Dedon
09-08-2013, 9:52 PM
I'm pretty sure my circuits are 20 amp there but now that you mention it I'll check it. I am pretty sure nothing else is running on that circuit but I guess I should check that also. That's the only outlet we have that's remotely convenient but the main box is only six feet away on the opposite wall and has empty slots. I asked my wife about adding a 220 for the car but she didn't see the need to bother with it right now.

Jim Becker
09-09-2013, 1:48 PM
Congrats on your new car!

Jeff Nicol
09-09-2013, 8:59 PM
MIke, You made a large statement that did not even consider any of the other sources of hydrogen other than what you stated. There are now methods that use "Ethanol" as the fuel and other biomass fermentation systems which produce the hydrogen and the other by product CO2, but of course if we are talking about the "TRUE" greenie we cannot produce any of that because it is an evil "Global warming" creator (Which of course is just a made up story to sell alternative fuels) There are also many processes that are being used already that have the by-product of hydrogen that could be captured and used.

But even if natural gas is used, the United States has more natural gas than we can use for a few more lifetimes, that is of course if the EPA and the government does not continue to ban fracking. This of course is where it all begins and that is at the government, Greenies, greedy and crazy activists have been on a mission since the 70's to convince the world that carbon based fuels from oil are terrible, vile and killing the planet! So that is why there is any talk about electric, aternative fuel vehicles at all, if everyone just used common sense and looked at the truth none of this would be an issue at all.

All trees, plants, people are mostly "Carbon" then there is all the carbon in the ground from all of the bio-mass rotting and off gassing CO2. Then we have to account for all the active volcanoes in the world that expell more toxic fumes of many types than all the population of the world by many thousands of times over. But don't get me wrong, I am all for clean air and less pollution and that has been accomplished over the years through techology and the massvie, over abundance of regulations upon redundant regulations! But I digress, we should use any and all alternative fuel and come up with the best of the best, but keep the government out of it and let the competitiveness of the free market to come up with what the people want and where they want it.


So it all boils down to that "WE THE PEOPLE" can decide what we want, how many times we try and fail or succeed and what and where we use the fuel of our choosing. This means that in cities where hydrogen is easily available and cheap to disperse, we use it. Where solar charged electric cars are feasible and wanted, let them put in charging stations and those of us who need a truck that can haul tons of material we will continue to use gas, deisel or the next great fuel source that can do what gas and oil do now, who knows I may come up with the "Cold Fusion" system like Doc. Brown did in "Back to the Future". Just let us expand our minds and use our entrepenureal spirit and drive to continue to move forward with whatever our imaginations can come up with.


Common sense, honesty, and desire made America what it was and will bring it back, we just have to get out of the way of the dreamers and encourage them instead of discouraging them with regulations and made up stories about things that are not true. We may not have much time left to be do this if the world does not stop all the insanity going on around the world.


Freedom and choices


Hydrogen is not a very good fuel. Let's look at the efficiencies of hydrogen.

You can produce hydrogen by steam reforming of petroleum but then you're still using petroleum and you would be better to use the petroleum in a gasoline or diesel engine directly, without going through the conversion to hydrogen.

So let's say you're going to generate hydrogen from electrolysis of water. You use electricity to do that conversion, and since you get both hydrogen and oxygen from the electrolysis, the energy content of the hydrogen produced is only about 65 to 70% of the input energy.

Then, you have to transport the hydrogen to the "service stations". This takes maybe 10% of the energy of the hydrogen transported.

Then, you put the hydrogen into a fuel cell to produce electricity. The energy content of the electricity output from the fuel cell is perhaps 50% (source: US dept of energy) of the energy in the hydrogen you put into the fuel cell.

So let's look at the hydrogen energy equation, assuming we start with 100 units of energy in the original electricity.

After producing the hydrogen, we have 65 to 70 units left (let's say 70).

After transporting it, we have 63 units left.

After we put it through the fuel cell, we have about 32 units of energy left of the original 100 units.

Now, let's look at a car with a battery, and start with the same 100 units of energy.

To transport the electricity to your house, we lose perhaps 5% , leaving us with 95 units of electrical energy.

We have to charge a battery, and the battery can return perhaps 90% of the energy put into it, leaving us with about 85 units of energy.

So, even if we ignore all the other problems of hydrogen, such as building the infrastructure to deliver it, and the danger of hydrogen (you can't see the flame when it's burning), battery operated cars are significantly more efficient than hydrogen powered cars.

Mike

Mike Henderson
09-09-2013, 10:10 PM
MIke, You made a large statement that did not even consider any of the other sources of hydrogen other than what you stated. There are now methods that use "Ethanol" as the fuel and other biomass fermentation systems which produce the hydrogen and the other by product CO2, but of course if we are talking about the "TRUE" greenie we cannot produce any of that because it is an evil "Global warming" creator (Which of course is just a made up story to sell alternative fuels) There are also many processes that are being used already that have the by-product of hydrogen that could be captured and used.

The problem with using any feedstock to produce hydrogen is that you'd generally be better off to use that feedstock to power a car (example, natural gas), rather than convert it to hydrogen, or use the feedstock to generate electricity.

No matter how you slice it, you're taking some energy containing material, converting it to hydrogen and losing energy in the process, then transporting the hydrogen, which also takes energy, then putting it into a fuel cell which is only about 50% efficient in converting the hydrogen to electricity.

If we can't use the feedstock directly in a vehicle, we'd be better off to use it to generate electricity which can then be used to drive a car through batteries. It would be more efficient.

The more you understand about hydrogen, the better you understand why most companies have abandoned their hydrogen vehicle programs. I highly doubt if we'll ever see a "hydrogen economy".

Mike

[Also, if you want to argue for hydrogen, you need to be specific about how you would produce it, and what it would cost in energy units that can be compared to gasoline, natural gas and electricity. Vague statements don't add up to a program.]

Brian Elfert
09-09-2013, 11:02 PM
We may have vast quantities of natural gas now, but what happens if we started converting in mass from oil and coal to natural gas? Wouldn't the price of natural gas spike as demand goes up? Many of us heat our homes with natural gas and we would rather not see the cost of heating our homes go sky high.

Art Mann
09-09-2013, 11:10 PM
The use of ethanol as a feedstock is a losing proposition anyway. Even the most optimistic estimate of the energy efficiency of ethanol production is that it takes the energy equivalent of one unit of ethanol to produce 1.3 units of ethanol. Most estimates are more like 1.2:1 and some estimates are that it takes more energy to produce a unit of ethanol than the energy contained in that unit of ethanol. That kind of a conversion rate will never be economically feasible. Utilizing ethanol as a fuel also has the unfortunate side effect of removing vast areas of land from food production, which causes higher food prices and in some countries, starvation of the poor.

Art Mann
09-09-2013, 11:20 PM
We may have vast quantities of natural gas now, but what happens if we started converting in mass from oil and coal to natural gas? Wouldn't the price of natural gas spike as demand goes up? Many of us heat our homes with natural gas and we would rather not see the cost of heating our homes go sky high.

Yes! The government is already forcing the closure of hundreds of coal fired power plants through new environmental regulations. At the same time, nuclear power is being eliminated as an option due to insurmountable safety requirements. That leaves only natural gas and renewable energy sources of energy. At present, renewable energy sources, such as solar and wind, are so inefficient and expensive that natural gas is the only viable energy source for power generation. I think it is very likely we will all see our energy bills going up sharply in the next few years.

Ken Fitzgerald
09-09-2013, 11:50 PM
Folks,

The topic by the OP was "Who has a Volt?"

This is thread is getting way off topic.....and political comments and/or opinions are beginning to creep into the thread. I will remind you that political comments, opinions and discussions are not allowed per the TOSs.

Chris Padilla
09-13-2013, 12:52 PM
Tesla!! Although they are way more spendy than a good old Chevy. ;)