Mac vs PC (not really off topic)

[Lloyd Robins]

Background: I have been following a thread on another site where the gentleman says that he got a Stanley G12-060 as a gift, fettled it, and it works great. He then asks why would anyone want to buy a LN or LV block plane. He asks: does it work without you? I have also been reading the responses to the WoodRiver plane thread and other threads on this site about tools and what is best.

So, today I was working on a Stanley No. 6 (mainly the blade) and ended up going to scary sharp with 80 grit paper to flatten the back. That blade took longer to first time sharpen than my two LN's and the WoodRiver blades altogether. While this was occurring, I quit 3 or 4 times and started to go to the computer to order a PM-V11 blade for the plane. :( I decided to stick it out and did finally get the blade into useable condition (I may still get the V11 blade). During this time, I realized that there are at least two types of neanderthals - PC and Mac. Mac neanderthals like things to work or mostly work out of the box so that they can start their wood working project. PC neanderthals like to mess with their tools. They enjoy the rust hunting, the fettling, and all that goes with it. For them it is a major part of the neanderthal experience. There are of course the in betweeners that like getting the out of the box tools, but can't or don't want to spend the money on the "premiums." They usually have a mix of tools. I am afraid that after working on some of the older Stanleys and a saw, I have to place myself in the Mac, betweener catagory. I really don't enjoy the fettling that much. I checked the sole my No. 6, and it is flat to about .002-.025. I hope that will do, because otherwise I will have to get a new plane. (Hmmm) :rolleyes:

Anyway sorry about the rant, but what do you think. Mac, PC, or betweener? :confused:

[Chris Griggs]

Tweener. I've really enjoyed making a few of my own tools and would like to make some more. I also think building workbenches, and shop appliances, and/or shop storage can be enjoyable. HOWEVER, while I do get some satisfaction from the end result of making and old tool work wonderfully, I really don't enjoy tool restoration. Lapping, derusting, and restoration is tiring and its dirty and its often quite frustrating. So I guess you could call me a Mac that runs a lot of Microsoft software.

All in all when comes to using tools that aren't out of the box ready, I'd rather make my own from scratch more or less instead of restore something old (though I do love my vintage planes that I have tuned up). And after a tool build, I am always excited to get back to making furniture.

[Jim Koepke]

During this time, I realized that there are at least two types of neanderthals - PC and Mac. Mac neanderthals like things to work or mostly work out of the box so that they can start their wood working project. PC neanderthals like to mess with their tools. They enjoy the rust hunting, the fettling, and all that goes with it. For them it is a major part of the neanderthal experience.

It could also be a choice of working with what works for the individual.

Having worked with both Macs and PCs my preference is for a Mac.

Having both fettled old planes and buying new from LN my preference if for finding something old at a good price. Of the three planes purchased from LN two of them were of models that are not available cheaper on the secondary market. The third was a #60-1/2. After a few unsuccessful attempts at bidding on ebay I decided it would be better to just spend the extra money and be done with it. It is a decision that has not been regretted.

As for the computer issue, working on a Mac is easy for me and the computer does what I want it to do. A PC seems like a constant fight to get what is wanted from it. I am not good with computer programing and it isn't something I want to do.

On the other hand, getting metal objects to give up their rust and start working is something I seem to have a knack at doing.

jtk

[Shawn Pixley]

Lloyd, in your analogy I am a mac guy. I want to spend my precious off hours making furniture, not tuning tools. The joy of fettling a tool is not a joy in and of itself to me.

That said, I have five planes that I resussicated in the last year and a half. They work and I use them. Just because you prefer one way, doesn't mean that you can't do the other.

[steven c newman]

Other than a "lapse" with the WR#4 V3, been a pc type of guy. With a shop like this269682not much of a chioce, is there. Still get a few projects done, though...

[Jim Koepke]

With a shop like this...

My shop really isn't any less of a mess. Just different locations for the piles of tools.

jtk

[Frederick Skelly]

Lloyd, I like your comparison to Macs and PCs. Ill borrow it (but give you credit, of course ; )

Im in between. I enjoy putting a sharp edge on my blades. Getting a little better at it each time. But I really HATE flattening the backs. The two really good, modern blades I have purchased let me get right to the honing part and hold an edge well. Ill buy more of those. But Ive really enjoyed taking two beat up old planes and restoring/fettling them with advice from the guys here. And Im still ogling that scroll saw Myk Ryan just restored. Tempting.

Fred

[David Weaver]

I don't know which one of those I am, but I don't like my tools to come with a purse, so I guess I am whatever is akin to PC and not mac

:)

[Derek Cohen]

I don't know which one of those I am, but I don't like my tools to come with a purse, so I guess I am whatever is akin to PC and not mac

:)

David, I am inclined to think of you as a Heathkit H8. :)

Great analogy, Lloyd.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Tony Wilkins]

​Mac guy on both counts here - I don't own a purse. I do, however, have an old Union #5 that I'd love to get the wonky tote sorted on. I'll have to post a thread on it to see if I can get it up and going.

[Adam Cruea]

You forgot one other major player. . .Linux. :D

Much like PC/Mac/Linux, it's all about the right tool for the job. Sometimes there is overlap, sometimes there isn't.

For example, why buy a Stanley 51 at the outrageous prices going when you can get an awesome alternative that works just as well, if not better, for less that $500 for brand new? But in the same token, why spend $500 on brand new when you can get used for less than, say, $200?

[David Weaver]

I don't really have much against the macs. Won't own one unless something changes, but I love the PC/Mac jabs and have for at least 20 years. My BIL always loves to tell me that when he sees someone using a PC, he usually assumes they are poorly educated and cheap :) He usually says that while I'm using a PC.

I always tell him something similarly flattering about macs. He spends about 4 times as much on computers per year as I do.

Derek - you're close, but maybe giving me too much credit. The very first computer my parents ever got my sister and I as little kids was a TRS-80 from radio shack. They didn't have any idea how to use it (neither did I) but one of their friends told them that "you should get your kids a computer", so they did.

[Jim Leslie]

Definitely a Mac. I prefer to woodwork than metalwork. I do like to make the odd Krenov style plane though..

[Lloyd Robins]

Very interesting. Adam, maybe Linux should be for the hard core rust hunters and do it your selfers who make their own tools, that some of us would like to buy. It seems that most of us are hybrid users (tweeners) for one reason or another. It is nice to know, however, that I am not the only one who does not love the reconditioning of tools. I do enjoy them once they are in working order. It comes down to best use of available resources for many of us. Thank you for the replies.

[Curt Harms]

I don't really have much against the macs. Won't own one unless something changes, but I love the PC/Mac jabs and have for at least 20 years. My BIL always loves to tell me that when he sees someone using a PC, he usually assumes they are poorly educated and cheap :) He usually says that while I'm using a PC.
<snip>


If he's gonna be like that, maybe you could observe that Mac users have no choice but to pay more 'cause their limited mental & intellectual resources won't permit the use of anything else:D. Actually I go along with using what works but when someone is being the trailing end of a horse ..... ;)

[Mike Holbrook]

I think maybe I am more like Lloyd. I actually like the idea of using older, restored tools. I don't even mind the time working on them. Sometimes it is hard to find a time slot long enough to do the wood working projects I would like to be doing but in 30 minuets I can: take the handle off an old saw, clean an old saw blade, work on the jaws of an old brace, make a wedge for a home made plane....

Still I end up buying quite a few of the easy to use tools too. I am about to order a Veritas BU Smoother. I just made a few wooden planes, out of Purple Heart no less, too. I was working an old cupped, twisted, piece of white oak with bad grain. A friend gave it to me as a challenge I think. My buddy is still trying to convince me I am crazy to use all the hand tools. I liked working with the light wooden planes but the Veritas BU Jack's weight and easy to use assortment of blade angles was quicker and easier to use on wood that seemed to stop just about anything that touched it. I decided I wanted an easy reliable smoother that could use the same blades as the Jack, giving me the blade angle variations on both planes.

I bought a couple Record planes back in a time when that was about all that was available. The quality of work on at least some of those planes was obviously not up to the current Veritas tolerances. I hated fiddling with all the adjustments and still having problems. Oddly I find tapping the blade & body of a simple hand made wood plane to be at least as easy as any of the mechanical adjusters. Maybe I am just weird or still learning. I am inclined to think that if we are not still learning we just are not paying attention though.

I started "PC" life with a Mac, with the original Write, Draw...At that point those apps were the only ones of their kind. From my view point Macs are the old tools, pre dating "other PC's". I find it amusing that people still make some of the same arguments against Mac's they always have, despite obvious evidence. Seems to me Apple's success hinges on their staying one step ahead of the always changing "computing" market. I think they were always at least a step ahead, they just were not always savy enough to make money off leading the market. I think we could draw a meaningful comparison between say Apple and Lee Valley. Two companies who spend a great deal of time and energy innovating, trying to build a better mouse trap. It takes money to innovate, especially if that innovation is also by design a simpler solution. Certainly we can see the success of leading the market with those corporate principals.

[Judson Green]

More of a PC guy here. Kind of enjoy the hunt. Enjoy meeting people too. And the price point is usually a bit better. Though I do salivate over some of the "newer" stuff.

[Kevin McMichael]

Mac in theory, PC in practice. I have some old planes that I inherited and they have sentimental value. I have a jointer that could have been in my family since 1879. But I am always on the verge of purchasing something from LV or LN at any given time. In regards to actual computers...I just got an Ipad and consider it the only advance in musical equipment since the late 1950s.

[David Weaver]

If he's gonna be like that, maybe you could observe that Mac users have no choice but to pay more 'cause their limited mental & intellectual resources won't permit the use of anything else:D. Actually I go along with using what works but when someone is being the trailing end of a horse ..... ;)

I like to tell him that when I see an apple computer, I usually figure that someone is going to tell me that I should eat organic food (OK, my wife does that), or show me a receipt where a mechanic took them for a "bucket of steam" when they worked on their cars. I am from the 90s PC generation mostly, though, and in those days you could do a lot better putting your own machine together and paying attention to what parts could be overclocked.

The last go-around, I bought an HP laptop for $600, still have it, it's a little over 7 years old. BIL bought one of those all in one macs on his desk, he paid close to three grand for it. It pooped out after about three years, and a year ago I bought another HP laptop for $750. Admittedly, PC laptops in the lower range usually are either refurbished or of an integrated consumer flavor in terms of the parts, but the price no longer makes it worth it for me to worry about the details and I no longer play video games. I do like to give the rib about a mac for almost three grand crapping out, and he followed it up by buying one even bigger and more expensive, which made for even better follow-up discussion.

If the machines didn't both work well (PC and mac) the ribs wouldn't be so much fun, they'd just be mean for the person on the short end of the stick.

Far as the tools go, I like to have a little bit of everything. I've spent about the last month working almost entirely with three vintage planes and a single washita stone and a bare leather strop (not just smoothing, but a lot of the dimensioning work). I wouldn't give up an infill panel plane I made, it's like magic in wood that isn't that straight. I don't use japanese planes that much anymore, but I wouldn't like to give them up, either. If I was with computers like I am with tools, I'd be tinkering with at least one of all three (linux, PC and mac) but my german sense tells me that tools are money in suspense if bought well, and computers are money in dispense.

[Jim Koepke]

If I was with computers like I am with tools, I'd be tinkering with at least one of all three (linux, PC and mac) but my german sense tells me that tools are money in suspense if bought well, and computers are money in dispense.

Another way to look at this is tools can be an appreciating asset where unless you have something like an Apple I a computer will always be a diminishing asset.

With tools tinkering, fettling and hunting can be fun. My feelings used to be that way with my automobiles. In the heydays of my youth old air cooled VWs were my passion. Finally, my automotive tinkering spirit became burned out. May have had something to do with getting married and having kids.

Kind of the same with computers, spent a few years working in shops fixing computers. For my own needs, something that didn't require constant tinkering to keep going was appreciated. My interest wasn't in the process as much as getting to the finished product.

My journey into woodworking began with less funds than time.

Finding and restoring old tools not only saved money, it also fulfilled my desire to tinker.

CPM and later DOS were just not for me. GUI did what was wanted and have been with it ever since.

jtk

[Mike Holbrook]

Interesting experience with the Mac's David, but mine has been significantly different. I started with Apple in the late 70's, have owned at least 6 myself and another 6 for the family, another dozen or so with friends & family. The only machine I know of that died before it's time took a lightning strike that took out an entire phone system, wires & all. The wife use to use PC's and gave up on them specifically because she could never keep them running, my super gamer sons PC took a dirt nap just last week. The 5 Mac's, 3 iPads, 4 iPhones....we have are and always have run with no issues, and that includes issues with hacker software bugs.

I was laying a track for one of my dogs in a field at the house one day. Up trough the grass I saw a reflection that looked like an Apple. It turned out to be the iPhone my daughter had lost months before. It was in the field for months through rain, sleet...mowing with a tractor...countless dogs running back & forth...I dried it up, charged it and it ran. Which is the same thing I like about products by companies/manufacturers like Veritas, Gramercy...Certainly the Stanley type planes, at least the older ones, are withstanding the test of time. To my mind Stanley, Disston, North Bros....were the innovators of their time, even though the market may have changed their direction or put them out of business. Apple, Lee Valley, Gramercy...are current innovators, who's long term effects are just starting.

I understand the argument against the extra cost of R&D. Certainly it can be argued that NASA or even Veritas waste money, only time will tell, actually is telling, what that high priced R&D will wind up producing.

[David Weaver]

Some people are just rough on things. My mother can make a PC last 2 years and then quit. My BIL's mac stuff always looks rough, and I don't know exactly how you do that to a desktop and an ipod touch, but that's just the way both of them are.

I've had PCs since, I don't know, 1985? Never had one of my own quit*, always sold them when they were still worth money (these days, we just throw one away every 5 years, because that's how often we buy a new one, and a ten year old computer is totally worthless). In the 1990s, I could just start up in dos and remove viruses, but I use free viruscan software now and have never had a problem. That equates to my wife and I spending about $120-$150 per year on PCs, which mac's can't touch. It's the old german thing.

I have an uncle who has used PCs his entire working life, he also seems to never have one quit. There seems to be some component of experience in using them successfully.

* I did have a very expensive gateway computer quit in 1995, but it was struck by lightning. They were so hard core to win the customer service war back then they never asked me to go to the power company for remuneration, they just sent out the parts the next day. I'd consider macs if they didn't have such a huge margin built into them.

[Jim Neeley]

You beat me to it, Adam.. and the analogy is a good one and how my woodworking has evolved over time.

There was a time when each had their weakness: Windows required a fair amount to tweaking to get it to work correctly (minor PITA) while Mac worked right out of the box but had very limited tweak-ability so if it didn't do what you wanted out of the box, too bad (major PITA for me). Windows has gotten somewhat better while Mac re-wrote their OS to put a Unix/Linux under the hood which opened the tweakability doors which was a major shift.

In the Pc world I use all three but prefer the Linux / Unix world for most applications.

In the woodworking world I'm one who has very limited shop time and don't enjoy tuning tools enough to give up my shop time to do it when I can buy one already there.

That said, even most top-drawer tools aren't fully *there*; planes and chisels need honing at least. I very much want the peak-performing tool. As such I will take the time for the one-time polishing of the chisel back to a 16k Shapton however I'll spend the money to buy the chisel that comes closest to what I'm trying to achieve and the best honing /sharpening tools I can find to get me there.

This is not without irony. Over time I've tried most approaches to sharpening: scary-sharp, oil stones, water stones, worksharp, diamond stones and Shaptons with grinder and most of the honing jigs on the market. After investing hundreds of hours self-taught in working with them, I took a week-long class a couple of weeks go that spent the first 12-hour day dedicated to learning grinder (hollow bevel) and free-hand sharpening using my Shaptons. Coming out of this one-day I'd properly prepared the back and sharpened of a couple of chisels and plane blades. Through the rest of the week, while continuing the 12 hr/day work I'd stop and re-sharpen whenever the cutting performance started dropping off and learned that (with proper instruction / technique) I can now re-work a chisel or plane blade edge free-hand in 30-seconds to a minute. This is quick enough to have me resharpen as soon as it makes sense rather than fighting it until it won't perform well.

It was also the time I first worked with a truly *sharp* plane. How do I define sharp? Well, I had a 36" piece of (flattened) 8/4 curly hard maple clamped on its side in my front vice and "pulled" my #8 along the length of the board, taking a full-width shaving of a thou or so, without a hand on the rear tote and only my first two fingers around the front knob (and not pulling with super-strength). The first time i did that it was tough to accept it was possible.

A side note but I find it kind of amazing that one of the big names in hand tool woodworking recently posted an article talking about how they could refresh an edge in 5-10 minutes. Once the back is prepared (one time event) I cannot see taking that much time unless perhaps they were regrinding the primary bevel and spent have their time in the water bucket.

FWIW I think that learning to rapidly get a tool *sharp* was the most enabling step I've taken to date and (again, for me) the most important place to use good equipment and consider taking a class (or get private tutoring by someone who is a master at it).

Just my $0.02.. YMMV.

[Jack Curtis]

You forgot one other major player. . .Linux. :D

Much like PC/Mac/Linux, it's all about the right tool for the job. Sometimes there is overlap, sometimes there isn't....

Yeah, but Linux runs on Mac's and PC's, kind of mucks up the metaphor. :)

[Jack Curtis]

I spent several decades developing software, starting on mainframes, moving to PC's, then Mac's. We'd program PC's whenever we had to, say for a Newton to PC/Mac file transfer program; but we always used Mac's. They have a certain grace. I've got several old ones laying about taking up space, kind of wish they'd die now and then.

[David Weaver]

The surprise to me, being that I was in college in the 1990s, is that our labs had windows NT 4.0 on 486 dx 33s and we had a bunch of macs, I don't know what they were called back then "powermacs" maybe, but they might've been before that. The operating system at the time was so bad that there was nobody at the macs but there was always a line for the 486 PCs, and if you remember that era, they were no treat to run with windows NT 4, or even 3.51.

I had a PC in my room, but a lot of kids didn't have them yet back then. That was a shame, because the whole lab and lab tech culture back then was pretty hard on regular users (critical and criticizing).

At the time, the problem with the macs was partially the OS, I'm not mac expert but a couple of times when I changed by the labs the OS was unstable, and I was kind of hoping they'd go out of business. I kind of still hope they do, I like the computer makers to be a little hungry - keeps the prices down and keeps them figuring out how to keep them down.

As far as overall longevity, though, the local champ here is an IBM 515x that a friends dad bought around 1981 or 1982. It still works perfectly. It's just not good for anything. His dad never would throw it away because it cost him so much (and he never learned to use it, either).

There were a lot of bad PCs built in the 1990s that I can recall, though - sold at wal mart and other places. People would bring them to our room and sometimes the problem existed between the keyboard and chair, but a lot of those were just plain junk and some didn't work right out of the box.

How that equates to hand tools, I don't know. We don't have anyone making new "junk" as far as I know, the bar is set too high by LV and LN.

[Jim Koepke]

We don't have anyone making new "junk" as far as I know, the bar is set too high by LV and LN.

Haven't you seen the plane shaped objects for sale at the local HD? How about those green things that look like spoke shaves?

jtk

[David Weaver]

Haven't you seen the plane shaped objects for sale at the local HD? How about those green things that look like spoke shaves?

jtk

Yeah, but we don't take those seriously. (I can't figure out what we'd compare them to - palm pilots maybe)

Back in the 90s, people took the walmart computers seriously, as well as stuff from tiger direct. A buddy of mine got a PC from tiger direct to save a few bucks and in the end, he never actually used it because it wouldn't connect to the internet and tiger direct never would do anything about it. My roommate and I built our PCs and both of them were overclocked, we knew everything about what was in them, but the buddy of mine who bought the tiger direct PC was not interested in knowing the details and he got nailed. I guess that's akin to some of the clifton stories from a few years ago, when clifton had made some planes that weren't flat or their frogs or seats were defectively made, and the users (on woodnet at the time) could not get satisfaction through either the retailer or clifton. Cliftons were slightly cheaper. Walmart computers were slightly cheaper. Most of the cliftons were fine. Most of the walmart computers were fine. Clifton at the time wouldn't do anything about the planes, neither would the retailers. Tiger direct would never do anything other than tell my friend he could call tech support. Walmart probably would've offered a refund for the folks who had defective computers, but they wanted to bring them to us instead.

As I recall, bob feeser was someone who had trouble with clifton and he was extremely knowledgeable about planes. There were others, too, but I particularly remember Bob's reports because he was the best at expressing his disappointment.

[Jim Koepke]

A buddy of mine got a PC from tiger direct to save a few bucks and in the end, he never actually used it because it wouldn't connect to the internet and tiger direct never would do anything about it.

One of the biggest drivers in the mind of computer users and companies buying computers has been the price point. Then it was the person in charge of the computer help department's personal choice. Many knew that if they didn't buy machines that kept their department busy, they might be out of a job to a once a week contractor.


My roommate and I built our PCs and both of them were overclocked, we knew everything about what was in them, but the buddy of mine who bought the tiger direct PC was not interested in knowing the details and he got nailed.

A good friend of mine is a network engineer and computer guru.

It seems his biggest problem interfacing with people has been an inability to realize they do not understand computers as well as he does. He has been getting better at his human interfacing over the years. He can go on for hours telling me why I should over clock my machine or do some other fancy stuff. I listen, smile and drink a few beers. In the end, my clock speed stays the same and my computer runs fast enough for me.

When it comes to hand tools, it is the same way. Yes I know about micro bevels. Most of the time I do not intentionally use them. Yes, I know about the ruler trick. Most of the time a flat back works fine for me. A cambered blade? Well yes, but mine are done a little differently than others do theirs.

And yes, there are a few of those "tool shaped objects" in my shop if only to remind me there are some in this world who do not mind selling you something only once and will not even offer you a glass of water to wash out the bad taste they left.

jtk

[Tony Wilkins]

Built my own PC's through the 90's and built gaming PC's for my wife through the 00's (oughts). However, around 2001 I got tired of Windows crashing and was impressed by the Unix core of OS X. Bought my first Mac and haven't looked back. At this time of my life, I just want something that works.

BTW - first computers were a Vic 20, Commodore 64, and then an IBM PC with that huge 20MB HDD. First video game system - Pong in all it's black and white fast paced action - lol.

[David Weaver]

One of the biggest drivers in the mind of computer users and companies buying computers has been the price point. Then it was the person in charge of the computer help department's personal choice. Many knew that if they didn't buy machines that kept their department busy, they might be out of a job to a once a week contractor.

At the company where I worked before (60,000 employees) and where I work now (30) that wasn't the case in either one (could be different public vs private, though) . The total cost of owning a PC is less, and our users are all familiar users, so we don't have any real issues (in terms of ease of use). It's a requirement of the job (I am not a programmer, though). Companies are very aware of the total cost of using and supporting a PC, and if a PC becomes too expensive to support because it's junk, they will dump them. An exact case of this at the large company where I used to work is dumping dell and going to lenovo. Lenovos were slightly more expensive at the time, but far more reliable.

Where I work now, it appears our hardware budget (monitor and all) is about $1000 per user every four years. Every once in a great while, we'll have to replace a PC because it junks out. We have been using dell again where I work, because they atoned for their sins and stopped making the garbage they were making around 2004 when they decided cutting costs was more important than anything else.




A good friend of mine is a network engineer and computer guru.

It seems his biggest problem interfacing with people has been an inability to realize they do not understand computers as well as he does. He has been getting better at his human interfacing over the years. He can go on for hours telling me why I should over clock my machine or do some other fancy stuff. I listen, smile and drink a few beers. In the end, my clock speed stays the same and my computer runs fast enough for me.

Yeah, we don't do the overclock things any longer. It's not worth the trouble, I'd rather have cheap and functional. I got a refurb laptop the last time I got a PC, and at the time a mac equivalent (processing power and memory) was three times as expensive. The same reason that I use PCs is the reason we overclocked back then. In 1997 or so, macs were junk (at least their OS was, which makes the computer kind of crappy) and more expensive than PCs, and if you wanted top line performance, the P3 450 at the time was top dog. It also cost (for the processor only) $750, but intel made a cheap chip called the celeron that could be clocked to 450 like the expensive pIII, and it ran most applications just as fast, despite some slight differences in architecture - as long as it was overclocked. It cost $64 for each of us to get one at the time, and I had built an entire gaming PC for less than the cost of the top line chip.

Maybe such things exist now, but it's not what I'm into. I'm glad to have had that experience, it saved me money then and it saves me money now. I can waste that money on tools and sharpening stones...and nice wood. Don't tell my wife I said that. :eek:

(I know plenty of types like the friend of yours that you describe. If they don't play golf, i start to tell them why they should be so interested in ben hogan and how ben hogan believes every golf swing should be made).

[Frank Trinkle]

A simple analogy.....

Microsoft is to Apple as Ryobi is to Festool!:eek::D

I want things that just "work"!

[Matthew Hills]

A simple analogy.....

Microsoft is to Apple as Ryobi is to Festool!:eek::D

I want things that just "work"!

Except that this is the neanderthal forum...

So I'd go:
Mac is to LN48
as
Windows/Llinux is to (Stanely#45 or LV small plow with t&g attachments)


Matt

[Ty Williams]

I agree with your assessment of the "mac" tool user. It's definitely how I feel about tools (I just want them to work so I can make stuff) and in fact it's why I own Macs (so I can spend less time hating the computer and more time doing things with the computer). Though that being said, there's a lot of guys who also buy Macs because they just work like a Festool most of the time but still allow you to get into the inner workings of the UNIX backend via the CLI and fiddle with everything.


However, I think you're off on calling the other kind of tool user a PC user. I think you really need to call them Linux or UNIX users. THOSE are the computer guys that really like to fiddle and fettle with stuff on a hardcore level to get stuff to run they way they want it to AND they're the guys trying to buy ancient computer parts at flea markets because they're a "good deal" and in the end only can manage to make an network-attached, auto detecting coffee maker with them once they get them home :lol:

[Kees Heiden]

Me, I'm definitely a PC (or Unix) type woodworker. I like old tools. They just have loads more character. When I see a message about a free shiping event from LV, it leaves me cold.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

You forgot one other major player. . .Linux. :D


Ah, but whenever I get the hankering for Linux stuff, I fire up Terminal and get real work done in the command line where all my favorite Unixy goodness resides. I run some linux-y stuff in X11, as well.

Same way with woodworking, too - there's some stuff where I just don't want to bother, and some stuff where I really want to get under the hood or make it myself.

[steven c newman]

for some reason ( budget??) I seem to like trudging around and picking up old rusty things, like planes ( Hunter Gatherer??) and doing the restorations needed. To me, it is almost as much fun as building a project. The ones I don't need are sold. With the price of shipping on the buyer, I can usually get my cash back from a sale. Only to turn around and buy another rusty item.

nobody is paying me to build stuff, so I do NOT need to worry about how much time it takes. Stuff I build is for Family, and around the house. Also fun to learn about the items I do restore. Some of the history, how a plane was used, or misused ( the evidence of that is written all over a plane. The fancy-schmanzy Wood river came to me as a prize, for being a featured woodworker on another site. Out of the box, wasn't too bad, but had to be returned. seems the wrong chip breaker was installed. They made it right, and now the "new" plane is my finishing plane, instead of sandpaper. The only sandpaper I need nowadays is for sharpening stuff.

I guess that, since this IS a hobby to me, I don't put too much into buying new, shiny stuff. Need them big bucks for things like tires for the van, rent money for the place I live in, and other bills. Last weekend, had maybe $10 to go along a mile long vendor's row, looking at old tools. Bought two items, and a Mountain Dew (was a might on the toasty side there) and spent a day or two restoring them to almost new status. Figured out where I fit as a PC?

[Chuck Nickerson]

When it comes to tools I'm a Mac guy who keeps trying to be a PC guy.

I've got 32 cubic feet of tightly packed old tools I'm going to restore some day.
Every now and then I put two or three hours of effort into one, give up and return it to the space.

Then along comes another antique tool swap meet...

Some day there's going to be one heck of an estate sale.

[David Weaver]

You guys jinxed me! MIL/FIL are in town and the old laptop (7 years old) decided that it wouldn't start up!! For $600, I expect it to last forever!! (just kidding, 7 years is fine, but FIL is disappointed because he doesn't have anywhere to read the news).

[Andrew Pitonyak]

Ignoring some warts in Linux (it has been my primary platform for many many years, so I am well aware of the numerous warts), I love that I can drop to a command line and type something simple like

"yum install libreoffice"

and a few minutes later I am running the requested software.

So are Linux users like "shop fox" users where one machine can do all sorts of things? I ask this never having used a shop fox.

I suppose that Android and the Apple iPad / iPhone things are somewhat similar. It looks like Windows 8 went in that direction somewhat as well.

They all seem to be heading the same direction.

I might argue that if Mac things come extra "bloat ware" like all Windows boxes seem to, then they all require work to remove extra garbage you don't want.

[Mark Roderick]

Heck yes, Mac. The last thing I want when making something is for the freaking tool to break, so you can imagine how I feel about Windows.

[Jack Curtis]

Heck yes, Mac. The last thing I want when making something is for the freaking tool to break, so you can imagine how I feel about Windows.

Basically these days they all work pretty well, but they look very different. For example, I find it very irritating when Windows interrupts a movie I'm watching to perform updates and restart. Geesh, who are these people?

[Federico Mena Quintero]

Linux guy here. I make my living off of it.

I gave a presentation last year on more or less this kind of topic. It is from the viewpoint of a programmer/woodworker, so please forgive any technicalia in there. *Do* scroll down in each page to read the notes! https://people.gnome.org/~federico/docs/2012-GUADEC/html/index.html

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

Linux guy here. I make my living off of it.


Oh, weird, it never even clicked that you were *that* Federico. Cool! Thanks, too.

[Mark Roderick]

Basically these days they all work pretty well, but they look very different. For example, I find it very irritating when Windows interrupts a movie I'm watching to perform updates and restart. Geesh, who are these people?

Engineers!

[phil harold]

I am a FreeBSD guy
Might not be much to look at
But performs well and bullet proof

so the older the iron the better for most handtools

[Jim Koepke]

For example, I find it very irritating when Windows interrupts a movie I'm watching to perform updates and restart. Geesh, who are these people?

Some have problems with the Anti-Virus scans.

Here is a video of John MacAfee on how to remove the software. (Warning, I am not sure that is actually John MacAfee and it is a bit on the raw side.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bKgf5PaBzyg

jtk

[Jack Curtis]

Engineers!

Yeah, but certainly not user interface engineers. :)

[Jack Curtis]

Some have problems with the Anti-Virus scans.

Here is a video of John MacAfee on how to remove the software. (Warning, I am not sure that is actually John MacAfee and it is a bit on the raw side.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bKgf5PaBzyg

I never have problems with that, simply refuse to pay up when the "anti" virus companies demand. :) Actually, I devote the PC to movies and TV and never do anything that requires a password except Hulu, never use email, etc., so I don't need anti viral since there's nothing to attract hackers. No problems for the two years I've been doing this. I suppose if I were to start programming again, might be advisable; but my opinion is that the anti viral companies are largely responsible for all the viruses out there. Wow, how cynical I've become.

[Jim Neeley]

Yeah, but certainly not user interface engineers. :)

"User Interface Engineers" = Oxymoron!! Engineers = User-Brutal!! <g>

(And I *R* one!!) :-)

[Mitch Barker]

The decades old novel, "zen and the art of motorcycle maintenance", explored this same topic using two friends who went on motorcycle trips together. One friend was all about the ride; the wind, the freedom etc. He took his bike regularly to the shop for maintenance. The other friend marveled at the machine itself and how it's made of subsystems like the brakes and the electrical systems. Which in turn are made up of simpler parts and so on. He kept the cables lubricated, and did his own maintenance.

[Jack Curtis]

The decades old novel, "zen and the art of motorcycle maintenance", explored this same topic using two friends who went on motorcycle trips together. One friend was all about the ride; the wind, the freedom etc. He took his bike regularly to the shop for maintenance. The other friend marveled at the machine itself and how it's made of subsystems like the brakes and the electrical systems. Which in turn are made up of simpler parts and so on. He kept the cables lubricated, and did his own maintenance.

I might have bought this in the days of DOS/UNIX, but not Windows.